Outer World: Taymora 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

[Chimpman]

Maps

Map of Taymora, 8 miles per hex by John Calvin, September 2009 (Work In Progress)


Comments
This map of Taymora in 2300 BC covers portions of current day (1000 AC) Thyatis, Karameikos, The Five Shires, Darokin, Atraughin, and the Sea of Dread, as well as lands that sunk beneath the sea in 1700 BC.
At the moment the only features seen on the map are features that could be pulled directly from the corresponding underlying areas of TM1-TM2 (drawn by Thorf). The features are currently incomplete, however I'd like to get input from the group in filling out the rest of the areas.


Sources:

Unofficial Maps: Taymor at the Vaults of Pandius, Physical Map of Southeastern Brun (c. BC 2000) (2002) by Geoff Gander, Map of Taymora (2003) by James Mishler, Map of Southeastern Brun: 2500 BC (2003) by James Mishler, Geopolitical map of Taymora (2004) by Giampaolo Agosta, Taymora BC 2300 by John Calvin, Taymora BC 2300 with cities by John Calvin.

Notes on XXX

To Do List

1. Continue to name all major geographical features.

References

1. Outer World: Taymora 2300 BC, 24 miles per hex
2. Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Thanks to: Thorfinn Tait, for providing some wonderful graphics to use in all of our mapping projects. Thanks also to Havard, Hugin, Geoff Gander, and DaveL for contributing to the discussions and helping with the development of this map.

[Havard]

Another great map! I am looking forward to seeing more names and locations added to the map!

Havard

[Chimpman]

Updated this map.
-Filled in light forest terrain
-Added cities from PC3 (I had to shift several of the coastal cities by 1 or 2 hexes in order to get them back on the coastline)
-Labeled Colhador and Suthus

This map has many of the same issues as the Frontierlands map. In addition there are some considerations over the cities. Probably not all of the cities will have existed in BC 2300, so some of them need to be removed. I think we should also consider which modern cities are built over Taymoran ruins - I think there are probably several out there.

[Hugin]

Probably not all of the cities will have existed in BC 2300, so some of them need to be removed. I think we should also consider which modern cities are built over Taymoran ruins - I think there are probably several out there.

Very good point and will be interesting to investigate!

[Chimpman]

I've updated the map - it's still not completed, but getting closer. This one is full size, so you should be able to read all of the labels . Oh, and I've been going through and updating all of my images to pngs rather than jpgs, so this one should be much better quality.

[Hugin]

That's one nice looking map, Chimpman!

I'm thinking, based on the way the northern border seems to be repelled away from the area with the volcano (north of Noctis Labyrithus), that this region is either unusable (riddled with bogs, swamps, wetlands, marches, etc.), or is inhabited by a hostile population, or both. I'm leaning toward both myself since this region could be the home of the ancestors of Ierendi's Lizardmen .

What do you think?

[Chimpman]

Thanks Hugin!

I'm thinking, based on the way the northern border seems to be repelled away from the area with the volcano (north of Noctis Labyrithus), that this region is either unusable (riddled with bogs, swamps, wetlands, marches, etc.), or is inhabited by a hostile population, or both. I'm leaning toward both myself since this region could be the home of the ancestors of Ierendi's Lizardmen .

This is actually one of the things I want to talk about. I know in several previous fan maps of Taymora, folks have put a big swamp in the location we are speaking of, so that is a real possibility. Right now I've got a few bog hexes there, but I'm just trying to justify to myself how I could get more water into that area. Any ideas?

As to the Ierendi Lizardmen, you are exactly right... that should be the approximate location that they colonize. However I'm not sure as to the timeframe (ie are they in that location in BC 2300 or do they arrive there sometime after). I think there could probably already be some lizardfolk presence there at the moment, but it might not be large enough to constitute a "nation". It could still be large enough to constitute a threat to Taymora. If Geoff is around I'll let him comment more since I know he has ideas about this. One thing we've been tossing around is that we'll get plenty of refugees from Mogreth filing into that area once that nation is destroyed.

Another thing to consider - we can move the border farther north in the northwest of Taymora. It's where it is right now because that's where the undersea ruins stop... but nothing says it can't be further north. Logical boundaries would be the mountain range on the west and probably the second river on the east. This would give us a few more city states to play with, and would also mean that some of the cities in the Shires and possibly Karameikos.

The rest of the northern territories on this map may be controlled by giants (from Grondheim), and then of course the northeast leads to Mogreth, while directly east (on the other side of those mountains) are the Frontierlands. Northwest leads to the Inti (Azcan Plateau). We can also see Suthus (undersea to the south of Colhador) which should probably be a part of the Adhuzan Dominarchy at this time (kopru empire). Adhuza probably controls much of the Sea of Dread between Brun and the Isle of Dread (and probably all the way to Davania).

[Chimpman]

I'm thinking, based on the way the northern border seems to be repelled away from the area with the volcano (north of Noctis Labyrithus), that this region is either unusable (riddled with bogs, swamps, wetlands, marches, etc.), or is inhabited by a hostile population, or both. I'm leaning toward both myself since this region could be the home of the ancestors of Ierendi's Lizardmen .

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think we should steal some elements from Geoff's earlier map. I like the idea of a swampy lake area sitting on top of a plateau. It could pool water from the first and even second river, before releasing it in one or more waterfalls over the plateau edge. From there we could have the rivers take whatever course we wanted to again. I may try that out tonight and see what it looks like.

[Hugin]

This is actually one of the things I want to talk about. I know in several previous fan maps of Taymora, folks have put a big swamp in the location we are speaking of, so that is a real possibility. Right now I've got a few bog hexes there, but I'm just trying to justify to myself how I could get more water into that area. Any ideas?

Personally, I'd rather see the area spotted with many small gullies, bogs and swamps than with a single massive swamp (i.e. a wetland region as opposed to a region that is a swamp).

As to the Ierendi Lizardmen, you are exactly right... that should be the approximate location that they colonize. However I'm not sure as to the timeframe (ie are they in that location in BC 2300 or do they arrive there sometime after). I think there could probably already be some lizardfolk presence there at the moment, but it might not be large enough to constitute a "nation". It could still be large enough to constitute a threat to Taymora. If Geoff is around I'll let him comment more since I know he has ideas about this. One thing we've been tossing around is that we'll get plenty of refugees from Mogreth filing into that area once that nation is destroyed.

I definitely agree on the scales of population for the lizardfolk, however I also think the populations for the Taymorans themselves should be fairly low as well. Being city-states, it is appropriate that the vast majority of the population is scattered and sparse, having in many cases a single 'city' that acts as a fortification and seat of power. But even these so-called 'cities' would only be largish towns at best, at least IMO.

Another thing to consider - we can move the border farther north in the northwest of Taymora. It's where it is right now because that's where the undersea ruins stop... but nothing says it can't be further north. Logical boundaries would be the mountain range on the west and probably the second river on the east. This would give us a few more city states to play with, and would also mean that some of the cities in the Shires and possibly Karameikos.

As I was thinking about this, I think it may be best to leave the northern borders as they are for this time period. Populations tend to grow along coastal stretches first and then extend inland following river systems in search of resources. It takes something worthwhile to expand inland away from a river, perhaps most commonly for wood, metals, and/or minerals. Even so, there most be a source of fresh water nearby.

So, that all said, it may be appropriate to show expanded borders in later centuries. After all, we still have another six centuries before the cataclysms occur.

The rest of the northern territories on this map may be controlled by giants (from Grondheim), and then of course the northeast leads to Mogreth, while directly east (on the other side of those mountains) are the Frontierlands. Northwest leads to the Inti (Azcan Plateau). We can also see Suthus (undersea to the south of Colhador) which should probably be a part of the Adhuzan Dominarchy at this time (kopru empire). Adhuza probably controls much of the Sea of Dread between Brun and the Isle of Dread (and probably all the way to Davania).

Sounds good to me.

[Hugin]

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think we should steal some elements from Geoff's earlier map. I like the idea of a swampy lake area sitting on top of a plateau. It could pool water from the first and even second river, before releasing it in one or more waterfalls over the plateau edge. From there we could have the rivers take whatever course we wanted to again. I may try that out tonight and see what it looks like.

Another bonus to having some plateaus holding back water is the added devastation the water creates when the cataclysms release them. Water comes raging up from the sea as the land subsides below it, as well as water (and all the debris it brings) comes sweeping down from higher ground.

What do you think of also having many lakes in the highlands - water pooled from the melting glaciers after the GRoF which happened only 700 years earlier?

[Chimpman]

This is actually one of the things I want to talk about. I know in several previous fan maps of Taymora, folks have put a big swamp in the location we are speaking of, so that is a real possibility. Right now I've got a few bog hexes there, but I'm just trying to justify to myself how I could get more water into that area. Any ideas?

Personally, I'd rather see the area spotted with many small gullies, bogs and swamps than with a single massive swamp (i.e. a wetland region as opposed to a region that is a swamp).

I agree with you. If we decide to go the highlands route, I was thinking of having a lake (or lakes) up there, and then a boggy lowland. I'll go for the wetlands idea rather than a single massive swamp, and see how that looks.

I definitely agree on the scales of population for the lizardfolk, however I also think the populations for the Taymorans themselves should be fairly low as well. Being city-states, it is appropriate that the vast majority of the population is scattered and sparse, having in many cases a single 'city' that acts as a fortification and seat of power. But even these so-called 'cities' would only be largish towns at best, at least IMO.

I agree. The Taymorans have only been in the region for a few hundred years, and it's probably still quite wild and dangerous. Safety for them will come from their cities - most of which should really be large villages/small towns at this point. I'm still in the process of doing research, but I really like the idea of modeling them after the Minoans (this is based on research done by Old Dawn and Zomp in other threads). That being the case I want their cities to really feel different. They have communal dwellings rather than single family homes. Much of their economy is probably based on agriculture at this point which should mean that populations could be spread out in order to farm the land, but wars and dangers of the wild are common, so everyone should have a safe place behind their city's walls.

As I was thinking about this, I think it may be best to leave the northern borders as they are for this time period. Populations tend to grow along coastal stretches first and then extend inland following river systems in search of resources. It takes something worthwhile to expand inland away from a river, perhaps most commonly for wood, metals, and/or minerals. Even so, there most be a source of fresh water nearby.

Ok, agreed. I like this reasoning.

So, that all said, it may be appropriate to show expanded borders in later centuries. After all, we still have another six centuries before the cataclysms occur.

Right. This should probably mean that by BC 1720, a few Taymoran cities were build far enough north to survive the cataclysm. These could be a thorn in the side of early Nithia, but would eventually be destroyed or integrated.

[Chimpman]

Another bonus to having some plateaus holding back water is the added devastation the water creates when the cataclysms release them. Water comes raging up from the sea as the land subsides below it, as well as water (and all the debris it brings) comes sweeping down from higher ground.

What do you think of also having many lakes in the highlands - water pooled from the melting glaciers after the GRoF which happened only 700 years earlier?

I tried a single large lake last night and didn't like it too much. Maybe it was just too large though, so I'm going to try something slightly smaller. I also like your idea of many lakes scattered across the highland - I'll try that out as well.

As for the actual lines of the plateau, what do you think? Geoff's map used the modern coastlines as a guide. Also how far should the highlands extend? I definitely want them above that region we were looking at earlier (north of Noctis Labyrinthus), but should they keep going eastward?

[Hugin]

Right. This should probably mean that by BC 1720, a few Taymoran cities were build far enough north to survive the cataclysm. These could be a thorn in the side of early Nithia, but would eventually be destroyed or integrated.

Once again we find ourselves on the exact same page.

[Hugin]

I tried a single large lake last night and didn't like it too much. Maybe it was just too large though, so I'm going to try something slightly smaller. I also like your idea of many lakes scattered across the highland - I'll try that out as well.

Ya, I'm definitely not in favour of a single large lake. Pockets of smaller lakes seem right to me.

As for the actual lines of the plateau, what do you think? Geoff's map used the modern coastlines as a guide. Also how far should the highlands extend? I definitely want them above that region we were looking at earlier (north of Noctis Labyrinthus), but should they keep going eastward?

I'm rather divided on the issue of using the modern coastlines as the earlier plateau. In my mind, the coastal region here is 'gentle' in that it doesn't plunge into the sea quickly, but rather slips gradually into the sea (not counting the normal coastal shoreline 'dip' formations caused by erosion). Parts of the modern shoreline may have formed some of the old plateau.

Another possibility is that it wasn't a well-defined plateau with cliff-walls, but a ring of higher land surrounding a bowl region. On the map we have an area surrounded like a ring already to work with, the southeast corner of this ring creates that large lake but extends west through the Poisoned Plains, continues as a mountain range just north of the Noctis Labyrinthus, and even exists south of the river tributary that forms part of the border. (The 'ring' is weak here, i.e. lower and visible as a hilly ridge, but it is what forces that tributary eastward instead of heading south).

When the cataclysm happens later and the caldera collapses, this southern portion of the ring collapses as well, permitting a staggering amount of water from lakes and wetlands to literally slide toward the sea.

What do you think of this proposal?

[Chimpman]

I'm rather divided on the issue of using the modern coastlines as the earlier plateau. In my mind, the coastal region here is 'gentle' in that it doesn't plunge into the sea quickly, but rather slips gradually into the sea (not counting the normal coastal shoreline 'dip' formations caused by erosion). Parts of the modern shoreline may have formed some of the old plateau.

I'm divided too. I know we've had plenty of discussions before about this area being fairly fluid and flexible, with lava bubbles underneath it, or distortions caused by the weight of nearby glaciers (or recent lack thereof). Anyway I prefer the gentle/gradual coastlines myself.

Another possibility is that it wasn't a well-defined plateau with cliff-walls, but a ring of higher land surrounding a bowl region. On the map we have an area surrounded like a ring already to work with, the southeast corner of this ring creates that large lake but extends west through the Poisoned Plains, continues as a mountain range just north of the Noctis Labyrinthus, and even exists south of the river tributary that forms part of the border. (The 'ring' is weak here, i.e. lower and visible as a hilly ridge, but it is what forces that tributary eastward instead of heading south).

So let me just see if I have the picture right in my head. The southern lip of the basin seems pretty straight forward - you can just about see it on the map in the shape of the mountains around the Poison Planes. The northern rim of the bowl would be where? I'm guessing those two hilly areas (above Noctis Labyrinthus) and the 2 lone mountain hexes would make up some portion of it. The lakes would then be above that line.

I'm wondering if portions of the basin would actually be below sea level. It would give it that kind of Death Valley feel, and might justify me putting in a few desert hexes - probably as a portion of the Poison Planes.

When the cataclysm happens later and the caldera collapses, this southern portion of the ring collapses as well, permitting a staggering amount of water from lakes and wetlands to literally slide toward the sea.

I'm assuming you mean the northern portion of the ring? The northern portion would be holding in the water right, and keeping it out of the basin? Once that collapsed water could rush into the basin and then out to sea. That water might be responsible for destroying sections of the southern rim as well, but I think it would also be distorted by all the quakes and volcanic activity. Anyway, if the basin is below sea level to start with - and very close to the shore anyway, it won't take much to flood it.

What do you think of this proposal?

I like it immensely. There's at least 2-3 different ideas in there to try out. I really like the basin idea - enough that I think it should be labeled on the map. Now to translate your name into Taymoran. Tell me which one you like best:

Hurina
Saladne (or Saladnh)
Miiros

[Chimpman]

More thoughts about the basin:

If we really do have a basin feature in Taymora (ala Death Valley) then I'll probably change a few things around on the map. The lake feature (Deep Water Pool of the Kna) will probably get a bit smaller, and be surrounded by a hard desert area. I'm thinking terrain like around Lake Isabella in CA. This hot basin might be what keeps Taymoran settlements out of the area and would pose some amount of trouble when traveling through the area.

The river that ends just above Colhadow would probably have had to cut its way through a portion of the basin rim. Maybe there is a canyon there (with cliffs/plateaus drawn on either side of it).

The northern rim of the basin could be hard in portions (represented by cliffs and plateaus) and gentle in others. My first attempt was to draw the ridgeline as a single unbroken plateau, but after hearing your thoughts, I think it's better to break that up. I'd like to have at least one waterfall in the area.

The highlands will have a few more lakes, and be a little more damp/boggy.

[Hugin]

Actually, the basin I had in mind was a little bigger than the one I think you have in mind. The northern portion of the ring is the Cruth Mountains! This basin occupies a good 1/4 of your map!

It could be possible that the large lake is indeed below sea-level; meaning water does not escape it or that marsh. However, that does not make it a salt lake since it has only been around a few hundred years.

This would mean there are only two places for water to exit out of the basin; the river exiting right at the south and another on the western side of the ring.

[Chimpman]

Actually, the basin I had in mind was a little bigger than the one I think you have in mind. The northern portion of the ring is the Cruth Mountains! This basin occupies a good 1/4 of your map!

It could be possible that the large lake is indeed below sea-level; meaning water does not escape it or that marsh. However, that does not make it a salt lake since it has only been around a few hundred years.

This would mean there are only two places for water to exit out of the basin; the river exiting right at the south and another on the western side of the ring.

You're right... I was thinking much smaller. It almost looks like there could be several concentric circles, each one smaller and inside of the last. Perhaps this is where the asteroid that killed off the carnifex landed

Anyway, I need to do this kind of thing outside of work. I'll draw some outlines on the map and that way it will be easier for us to discuss all of the options.

[Seer of Yhog]

I'll weigh in with something more thoughtful soon, but I wanted to say the map looks great. Thinking about the points about my earlier map, I think it would be neat to have a string of lakes in the north, where the Blight Swamp is now, held back by a cliff (and waterfalls). The cataclysm caused the cliffs to collapse, emptying the lakes, but enough lowlands remained to prevent it from draining entirely. However, the falling water levels revealed nasty things that had been brooding, undisturbed, for centuries. Hence, part of the reason why (IMO) it's called the Blight Swamp nowadays.

[Dave L]

Just a minor point, but the png link at the top doesn't point to an actual image anymore.

I got a "page not found", but there was a link to the site, where I was able to find the map page - nice work!

[Chimpman]

Just a minor point, but the png link at the top doesn't point to an actual image anymore.

I got a "page not found", but there was a link to the site, where I was able to find the map page - nice work!

Thanks Dave!

Yeah, the problem with the links seems to be intermittent... I'm not sure what's going on. I'm uploading all of my images on Google Sites (which is nice because it doesn't reformat any of my images into jpgs like Google Pages did), but I wonder if something else strange is going on. I'll put a link to my maps page up top just in case folks can't get directly to the images.

[Chimpman]

I'll weigh in with something more thoughtful soon, but I wanted to say the map looks great. Thinking about the points about my earlier map, I think it would be neat to have a string of lakes in the north, where the Blight Swamp is now, held back by a cliff (and waterfalls). The cataclysm caused the cliffs to collapse, emptying the lakes, but enough lowlands remained to prevent it from draining entirely. However, the falling water levels revealed nasty things that had been brooding, undisturbed, for centuries. Hence, part of the reason why (IMO) it's called the Blight Swamp nowadays.

I definitely like Hugin's idea of a big basin, but I also like the idea of having a string of lakes in the highlands above the basin (between it and the Cruth Mts). I've been dead tired these last few nights, so no work has been done yet, but my next attempt will try and merge some of these ideas.

Keep the thoughts and comments coming everyone - it's really helpful!

[Hugin]

I'll weigh in with something more thoughtful soon, but I wanted to say the map looks great. Thinking about the points about my earlier map, I think it would be neat to have a string of lakes in the north, where the Blight Swamp is now, held back by a cliff (and waterfalls). The cataclysm caused the cliffs to collapse, emptying the lakes, but enough lowlands remained to prevent it from draining entirely. However, the falling water levels revealed nasty things that had been brooding, undisturbed, for centuries. Hence, part of the reason why (IMO) it's called the Blight Swamp nowadays.

I definitely like Hugin's idea of a big basin, but I also like the idea of having a string of lakes in the highlands above the basin (between it and the Cruth Mts). I've been dead tired these last few nights, so no work has been done yet, but my next attempt will try and merge some of these ideas.

Keep the thoughts and comments coming everyone - it's really helpful!

I'm in agreement with both of you; a string of lakes held back by cliffs sounds perfect. The formation of the Blight Swamp in this manner, and the release of 'nasties' is fitting. The only questions become, what are these nasties and how did they get there, seeing as the region was under the polar ice cap a mere few hundred years ago?

Regarding the basin concept, the 'bowl' feature is only a basic and generalized feature describing the overall region. Within that bowl are varying terrains and altitudes, including some highlands on a plateau (holding the lakes), and even the rim surrounding the basin varies greatly, from mountain ranges to hills with gorges.

[Seer of Yhog]

I'm in agreement with both of you; a string of lakes held back by cliffs sounds perfect. The formation of the Blight Swamp in this manner, and the release of 'nasties' is fitting. The only questions become, what are these nasties and how did they get there, seeing as the region was under the polar ice cap a mere few hundred years ago?

I'm thinking it would be something (if mortal) that would have settled there after the GRoF, that would prefer an aquatic domain - some of those lakes would have been pretty deep, and likely connected to other bodies of water by extensive caves. If the inhabitant was immortal (or not entirely bound by the laws of three-dimensional space), then it could have settled there long before the GRoF, in a time when the world was much warmer and the lands were...different.

I'm leaning towards the latter, to tie things in with my Mental Ramblings - especially this post. Something that ancient would be worshipped by critters like the Carnifex and their ilk. Ideally, with a temple on a tiny island in the midst of a murky lake - now long-since vanished. The island would remain as a low hill, and perhaps have bits of jagged stone poking out of the ground.

[Chimpman]

I'm in agreement with both of you; a string of lakes held back by cliffs sounds perfect. The formation of the Blight Swamp in this manner, and the release of 'nasties' is fitting. The only questions become, what are these nasties and how did they get there, seeing as the region was under the polar ice cap a mere few hundred years ago?

Hmmm... here's another possibility. What if there were actually things trapped in the ice? How long were they trapped there? Where did they come from? Just a quick thought.