[Outer World] Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

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[Outer World] Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:35 pm

Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex by Thorf

Image Image Image

Click on the thumbnails to view these maps' pages in the Atlas of Mystara, where you can get the full resolution maps.

If you have any comments, corrections, or suggestions for things to add to the map, please post them here.

Sources: "The Voyages of the Princess Ark" in Dragon Issues 171, 172, 174, 175, 176 and 177. Also X4 Master of the Desert Nomads, X5 Temple of Death, X9 The Savage Coast, Champions of Mystara (1993) and Red Steel (1995).

References
  1. Thorf's Secret Project: Stage One - the original Atlas of Mystara thread at the Wizards MMB. The Dragon replica maps appeared as follows: Slagovich in post 186; Southern Hule in post 189; the Savage Baronies in post 196, post 207 and post 209; Robrenn in post 265. Post 202 showed the updated map of Southern Hule and the City States, while post 211 has the updated Savage Baronies map, and post 212 has the combined version of all the Gulf of Hule maps. Post 589 contains the updated map, but there is no discussion about it at that point.
Thanks to: Michele (LoZompatore), Andrew Theisen (Cthulhudrew), Wilhelm
Last edited by Thorf on Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:56 am, edited 9 times in total.
Reason: Rewrote post completely.

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by LoZompatore » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:27 pm

WOW, this map is really amazing, great work Thorf!... :o
And it is really useful, too. I think I'll use it soon! ;)

Just a couple of things:

- What about adding the Keep of Vastrovek (south of Kastr) from Red Steel map? The same could be done to the land route to Kladanovic;

- From the anventure suggested at the end of Savage Coast set it is described an old Traladaran outpost built over Oltec ruins located in the hills some 50 miles W of Torre de Manzanas, in the Pampa Rica region; what about adding it to the map?

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Hugin » Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:07 pm

Love that combined one, however the pdf version comes up as "Not Found".

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Wilhelm » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:09 am

LoZompatore wrote:- What about adding the Keep of Vastrovek (south of Kastr) from Red Steel map? The same could be done to the land route to Kladanovic;
Yes, please please, put Vastrovek at there ;)
- From the anventure suggested at the end of Savage Coast set it is described an old Traladaran outpost built over Oltec ruins located in the hills some 50 miles W of Torre de Manzanas, in the Pampa Rica region; what about adding it to the map?
I'm not sure if it will be of any help (or if it's actually accurate), but I did the math for which hilly hex had the oltec and traladaran ruins, that's what I got:
Image
The yellow circle shows everything 50 miles away from Torre de Manzanas
The yellow markings at the black thick line shows every 8 miles
The red triangle to the west show the most likely hex where the ruins are ;)
Hugin wrote:Love that combined one, however the pdf version comes up as "Not Found".
Same here!

Thorf, any chance of a alternate version of this map with the portuguese spelling corrections ("Cafundó", "Campo-Ladrão" and "Antro do Dragão" instead of "Cafundo", "Campo-Ladráo" and "Antro do Dragáo")? ;)

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Cthulhudrew » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:13 am

LoZompatore wrote:- What about adding the Keep of Vastrovek (south of Kastr) from Red Steel map? The same could be done to the land route to Kladanovic;
The main characters of The Black Vessel actually travel to Vastrovek in the novel; they also travel to the hilly region to the east that are marked on the Red Steel map; a clan of hutaaka live there.

It's too bad that so much of that Red Steel map just doesn't fit at all with the previous maps; there are definitely elements of that at that scale that could really flesh out an 8 mi/hex map otherwise.
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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:44 pm

The village of Budvë is spelled thus in RS map and in your Dragon replica, but it looks like it is spelled Budvē (e umlaut) in your composite map.
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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:19 pm

Andaire wrote:The village of Budvë is spelled thus in RS map and in your Dragon replica, but it looks like it is spelled Budvē (e umlaut) in your composite map.
I agree it does look like that, but I checked the Illustrator and PDF files and they both have the umlaut.

Of course, if I had the PDF version online, you could have checked that for yourself. :oops: I'll go and get that done now...

In any case, thanks for letting me know. Especially with such subtle mistakes, the only way to get them fixed is if we work together. :)

Incidentally, I notice that the PDF version doesn't display everything quite like it should. Specifically, the glacier hexes look really strange. I'll have to have a look into it and see if there's anything I can do to fix it. I have a feeling perhaps it's failing to show transparency effects.

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:29 pm

So, which one is it, then?
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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:29 pm

It's Budvë, with the umlaut, not the macron.

Update: Added a new version of the Gulf of Hule updated map, along with a PDF version.

I added the Keep of Vastrovek and the trail leading to Kladanovic (although this may well be changed later). I also decided to add the beach on the coast of the Konumtali Savannah, since it doesn't seem out of place. On the other hand, I'm still ignoring the other additions to the edge of this map, which conflict with the Great Waste area too much. Does anyone have any suggestions for how we could salvage the place names and such? Also, what would we need to do to make the novel The Black Vessel fit with this map?

Finally I added the Traladaran & Oltec Ruins (is this name okay?). I chose a hex slightly closer than the one Wilhelm suggested, because I measure hexes from flat edge to flat edge rather than corner to corner. Also I think this hex looks more strategic, since the citadel would be able to see the land on both sides of the ridge of hills.

Oh, and I'd be happy to make a map with corrected spellings, but perhaps we should bring up the topic in a new thread and see if people would prefer corrected spellings throughout. I'm certainly not against correcting the accents and such on my main updated maps. Let's make a thread about it in this forum called "Mapping Issues: Accents", perhaps with a poll. If I understand the issue correctly, it's that the designers put the wrong accents on the Portuguese names, right?

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Cthulhudrew » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:01 am

Thorf wrote:I added the Keep of Vastrovek and the trail leading to Kladanovic (although this may well be changed later). I also decided to add the beach on the coast of the Konumtali Savannah, since it doesn't seem out of place. On the other hand, I'm still ignoring the other additions to the edge of this map, which conflict with the Great Waste area too much. Does anyone have any suggestions for how we could salvage the place names and such? Also, what would we need to do to make the novel The Black Vessel fit with this map?
The only thing I can think of offhand is to keep the hill caves to the east of Vastrovek, as those are the location of the hutaaka that the main characters visit in the novel. (I don't think they quite show on your map there, but would on a Great Waste map).

Otherwise, I agree with you about the maps conflicting too much. Which is too bad, because at least some of the Red Steel map I think would make for some interesting fleshing out of the Konumtali Savannah (particularly some of the rivers, villages, and forest.) Overall it just doesn't fit, though.
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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:40 pm

Update: I've now finished updating the Princess Ark series Dragon replica maps, and I've added PDFs of all of them. Please let me know if any of the links aren't working.

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Culture20 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:09 pm

Found two more corrections since I've been paying closer attention to your PDFs lately (using them to make better extended regions; maybe an alternate rio copos version):
Puebia de Alcázar
- is Puebla de Alcázar on the VotPA maps and in the Savage Coast books.
Las Cienagas
- Las Ciénagas ...Potayto/Potahto; one's Portuguese, the other Spanish, but since it's near Torreón and I *think* I see the accent on the VotPA map I think the change is warranted.

I almost thought Serra Sanguinea was an error on the original VotPA map, but then I realized that Serra is Portuguese, not Spanish.

I'm still running through the names, but I thought I'd jot down what I saw before I forgot.

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:28 pm

I should really get around to redoing these maps. They are still the old Baldur versions, which means that they also haven't been redone using my newer scans of the original maps which allow me to see things in much more detail - an absolute must for these maps and their various accents.

I spent a couple of hours tonight updating the Dragon 174 Savage Baronies map (it won't likely be online for a while yet, though). There were actually some other mistakes too, in addition to those given by Culture20 and Wilhelm above. Basically, when I first did these maps I was working from low resolution scans you can still find on the Internet today, which made it impossible to read the accents. That's not a problem now, and all the Savage Baronies maps are badly in need of revision. Moreover, my blaming the accent mistakes on the original cartographer was also it seems wrong, as they actually had it right. Or rather, the Dragon cartographer had it right; whoever did Red Steel apparently got it all wrong. This explains the proliferation of mistakes on my maps, because I did have access to the Red Steel maps, and I originally used them to check the accents. Yet another thing that changed between Princess Ark and Red Steel, it seems.

The corrections:

Antro do Dragão, Campo-Ladrão, Torre do Perdão (in addition to Boa Mansão, which was correct from the start)

Las Ciénagas, Puebla de Alcázar, Punto-Escobar (I had Eseobar, which is what the Red Steel maps give)

As always, the Atlas is going with Princess Ark names (including accents) over Red Steel versions.

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Culture20 » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:20 pm

Thorf wrote:Punto-Escobar (I had Eseobar, which is what the Red Steel maps give)
I wanted to call it Escobar too (because it's easier to say and sounds more Spanish), but it is Eseobar according to the Red Steel / Savage Coast text "Punto-Eseobar, another trading center that handles most commerce with Texeiras and Torreón." Then I checked the VotPA scans that I have, and although it looks like the line for the "e" is just part of the hex grid, when you compare the shape of the "e" with other "e"s and the shape of the "c"s (in Guajacas or Alcazar to the north), you can see that it is an "e".
Something else I found interesting; apparently Baronia in Portuguese has no accent over the i, whereas it does in Spanish. But some Espa baronies have no accent while others might (blurry text). There are no Verdan states referred to as Baronies.

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:47 pm

Culture20 wrote:
Thorf wrote:Punto-Escobar (I had Eseobar, which is what the Red Steel maps give)
I wanted to call it Escobar too (because it's easier to say and sounds more Spanish), but it is Eseobar according to the Red Steel / Savage Coast text "Punto-Eseobar, another trading center that handles most commerce with Texeiras and Torreón." Then I checked the VotPA scans that I have, and although it looks like the line for the "e" is just part of the hex grid, when you compare the shape of the "e" with other "e"s and the shape of the "c"s (in Guajacas or Alcazar to the north), you can see that it is an "e".
Red Steel does indeed have Eseobar, but the original Princess Ark map is definitely a c, not an e. Are you working with the scans kicking about the Internet? I have high resolution scans I made myself from my original Dragon magazines, and there's no comparison.

But you're completely spot on with the reason why this mistake was made in Red Steel; the position of the hex grid could very easily make it look like an e without close inspection.
Something else I found interesting; apparently Baronia in Portuguese has no accent over the i, whereas it does in Spanish. But some Espa baronies have no accent while others might (blurry text). There are no Verdan states referred to as Baronies.
Interesting that you mention this. Now that I look closely, I can see a small difference between some of the i's on the map. Here are the candidates:

Río Frio
Río Tuntos
Río Torrentes
(But Rio Fangoso)
Torre Cristobál
Baronía de Torreón
Chiquitín
Domínio de Vilaverde
Baronía de Narvaez
Río Maldito
Baronía de Saragón
Río Copos
Baronía de Gargoña
Río Negro

I think that's all, but it's hard to be completely sure. The i in particular is really rather subtle.

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Culture20 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:53 pm

Thorf wrote:Are you working with the scans kicking about the Internet? I have high resolution scans I made myself from my original Dragon magazines, and there's no comparison.
Yeah, the best I have for reference is http://mystara.fr/maps/votpa/ark174.jpg since the scans in the dragon mag pdfs are even worse. It's a little maddening because you can see that the central bar is in the wrong place for a Feinen e (too high), but it's also in the wrong place in Morales and Villavieja. Also, the bar is darker than the hex in the area (a lighter gray). Finally, the shapes of c's are more rounded whereas the e's are more half-heart shaped like this one. But, given the poor quality of the scan, I guess even the overall shape might be shifted slightly (or the original print of the magazine might have been smudged). I really hope it's Escobar. That's much easier to pronounce.
Interesting that you mention this. Now that I look closely, I can see a small difference between some of the i's on the map. Here are the candidates:

Río Frio
Río Tuntos
Río Torrentes
(But Rio Fangoso)
Torre Cristobál
Baronía de Torreón
Chiquitín
Domínio de Vilaverde
Baronía de Narvaez
Río Maldito
Baronía de Saragón
Río Copos
Baronía de Gargoña
Río Negro

I think that's all, but it's hard to be completely sure. The i in particular is really rather subtle.
Aha! You are probably right on all counts. Chiquitín means "tiny" in Spanish and is spelled exactly as you wrote it. Río has an accent in Spanish, but in Portuguese it's just Rio (but there aren't any Verdan rivers unless they're in the western colonies; I haven't bothered to check, and they're not on this map anyway). Unless Fangoso was named by Verdan explorers, it should probably have an accent for Río too (could be an oversight on the original map).

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Re: Outer World: Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by happylarry » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:28 pm

I've got a print copy of Dragon 174 in front of me, and I would put money on Punto-Escobar - it's alot clearer than on the jpg!

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Re: [Outer World] Gulf of Hule, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Update: a newly updated high resolution version of this map has now been added to the Atlas of Mystara web site.

http://mystara.thorfmaps.com/gulf-of-hule-8/

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