[Outer World] Shadowlands, 8 miles per hex

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[Outer World] Shadowlands, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:53 pm

Shadowlands, 8 miles per hex by Thorf

Image Image Image Image Image Image

Click on the thumbnails to view these maps' pages in the Atlas of Mystara, where you can get the full resolution maps.

If you have any comments, corrections, or suggestions for things to add to the map, please post them here.

References
  1. Underground landscape types - discussion thread at the Wizards MMB about the meaning of underground hex types (such as underground hills and mountains). DEFUNCT
Last edited by Thorf on Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:08 pm, edited 9 times in total.
Reason: Rewrote post completely.
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:56 pm

Note that I have changed some of the filenames from the old versions:

gaz13-shadow-elf-territories-8 --> gaz13-shadow-elves-territories-8

I will eventually be doing another variant with all the tunnel walls shown (rather than black dotted lines).
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:24 pm

Update: Added PDFs of both replica maps. Enjoy! :D
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Hugin » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:40 pm

Well of course we're going to enjoy! :D
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby stanles » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:59 am

Thorf wrote:Note that I have changed some of the filenames from the old versions:

gaz13-shadow-elf-territories-8 --> gaz13-shadow-elves-territories-8

I will eventually be doing another variant with all the tunnel walls shown (rather than black dotted lines).


actually is the map at http://pandius.com/gaz13-shadow-elves-8.png the old version of this map?

and had http://pandius.com/shadow-elves-8.png also been renamed to shadow-elf-territories-8.png?
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:16 am

stanles wrote:actually is the map at http://pandius.com/gaz13-shadow-elves-8.png the old version of this map?

and had http://pandius.com/shadow-elves-8.png also been renamed to shadow-elf-territories-8.png?


I can't check my files right now as I'm at work, but from the looks of things yes, those are both old versions of the maps currently labelled gaz13-shadow-elves-territories-8.png and shadow-elf-territories-8.png.

The replicas I have decided to name according to their official titles as much as possible. The updated maps are generally named by region. This map obviously caused me problems in this, since the territories of the Shadow Elves don't really have an official name as such. For now I've gone with Shadow Elf Territories, but it seems that Shadowlands may be the most popular of the official names, so I may yet change it again. :? Anyway for now I'll leave things as they are.
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Wed May 06, 2009 11:07 am

Update: Completely revised both replica maps, changing the text to Feinen and making the replicas more exact. (For example, numerous settlements now have Fungal Forest icons behind them, as they appeared on the original map.) I have also adopted most of the original palette as my palette for underground maps, although this still needs to be reconciled with GAZ10's underground palette.

For now, please have a look at both replicas and let me know what you think. Do you prefer the lava and water in the replica or the original colours replica? (These are the only major colours I have not adopted, but I'm still not decided yet. The original colour for lava is very deep and rather different from mine, but I'm not sure which I prefer. Similarly the original water colour is also deeper than usual, which could be nice for underground maps.)
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Chimpman » Wed May 06, 2009 3:35 pm

Love the maps as always Thorf. The following are my opinions on water and lava:

Water - The different colors of water mean different things on the outer world maps (darker waters specify deeper depths). I think it might become confusing if we adopted a darker color water for underground maps. My preference would be to keep the blue color consistent with the outer world maps.

Lava - The darker orange of the original colors is too dark IMO. It almost immediately focuses my eyes on the lava, and while the lave is a prominent feature of underground maps, I'm not sure that is a good thing. On the other hand, the lava in the replica map is almost too light. I wonder if it could be darkened just a little to help it stand out against sand hex background. I'd say shoot for somewhere in between of the two colors you currently have.
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Wed May 06, 2009 4:17 pm

Between this map and the Broken Lands map we have a pretty good mix of underground terrain types to draw on. Strangely enough they mimic overland terrain types to a large degree, so that we have moss fields (clear terrain), underground hills (hills), underground mountains (mountains), caves/broken terrain (broken lands), fungus forest (light and heavy forests), giant fungus jungles (jungles), desert and volcanic sand dunes (sandy desert), mud and mud flats (rocky desert), fungal swamps (swamps), and so on - almost every underground terrain has its overland equivalent, and in some cases they even use the same symbols.

With that in mind, it's worth noting that the underground maps use their own adapted palettes even when reusing overland symbols, so that underground hills, mountains and broken lands are all slightly different (generally darker). This clearly sets a precedent, so that using the same colour for water is not necessarily going to be the best course. In fact my worry is precisely what you said about the lava: it looks too bright in comparison with the other colours.

Chimpman wrote:Love the maps as always Thorf. The following are my opinions on water and lava:


Thanks for taking the time to comment! :D

Water - The different colors of water mean different things on the outer world maps (darker waters specify deeper depths). I think it might become confusing if we adopted a darker color water for underground maps. My preference would be to keep the blue color consistent with the outer world maps.


I see what you're getting at. I don't think it would be a problem though since the underground maps are already so different.

Come to think of it, do we need to be able to have deeper underground water...?

Lava - The darker orange of the original colors is too dark IMO. It almost immediately focuses my eyes on the lava, and while the lave is a prominent feature of underground maps, I'm not sure that is a good thing. On the other hand, the lava in the replica map is almost too light. I wonder if it could be darkened just a little to help it stand out against sand hex background. I'd say shoot for somewhere in between of the two colors you currently have.


That's a good idea. :) I'll have a go.
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Chimpman » Wed May 06, 2009 9:42 pm

Ahh :) interesting about the color palettes for underground terrain. I didn't realize. I was thinking exactly what you posted above about having different levels of water underground. I know we don't specify depth in any of the current underground maps... but I'm trying to think of a reason for not doing so should the need arise, and I can't think of one.

The point may be moot though, since you mention that underground colors are all slightly darker anyway, and I don't see why we shouldn't keep with that trend. If we have multiple water depths, just make each one a shade darker than their overland counterparts. I might even suggest that (for updated maps at least) you work out the color for different depths right up front because sooner or later someone is sure to want them ;) (and yes, I'd be in that camp).

Oh, and I meant to comment on this before, but I love the cavern walls in the updated map. That's definitely the way to go.
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Sun May 10, 2009 3:23 pm

Update: Revised the updated map and added a PDF version.

The palette appearing in this map is a synthesis of the GAZ13 and GAZ10 underground map palettes, as discussed in the Mapping Issues: Underground Palettes thread. The main difference here is the somewhat sinister mud flats colour, as opposed to the rather warm colour that appeared in GAZ13.

Also of note is the crosshatching around the cavern walls. This appeared on the City of the Stars map and has been added here on a trial basis.

Note: Let's try to keep discussion of the palette issues to the Mapping Issues thread. Feel free to post other comments about these maps here, though! :)
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Sun May 10, 2009 4:06 pm

One more thing: in accordance with the result of my poll about names for the Shadow Elf Territories, I have decided to adopt the name "The Shadowlands" for the updated map. Consequently there has been a filename change:

shadow-elf-territories-8.png -> shadowlands-8.png
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Chimpman » Mon May 11, 2009 5:48 pm

Hi Thorf,

It looks like the cavern of Losetrel, and the one immediately to the south of it, both should have a set of inner cavern walls (surrounding the gray hexes on the inside of the caverns). If we continue to use the crosshatching technique, that should probably be applied to those hexes as well.
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Tue May 12, 2009 3:38 pm

Chimpman wrote:It looks like the cavern of Losetrel, and the one immediately to the south of it, both should have a set of inner cavern walls (surrounding the gray hexes on the inside of the caverns). If we continue to use the crosshatching technique, that should probably be applied to those hexes as well.


Good catch. I must have missed those spots when I copied and pasted the cavern walls from my old updated map. In any case they're all just place holders until I can get the Poor Wizard's Almanac III map replica done.
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Tue May 12, 2009 3:50 pm

I finally worked out what has been bothering me for the last 15 years about New Grunland.

Notes on Updated map (GAZ13)
  • New Grunland - both maps (GAZ13 and Poor Wizard's Almanac III) put the New Grunland label in the area nearby, and call the city itself Jelden. GAZ13's "New Grunland" label is tucked away in a corner of the cavern, in the smaller point size reserved for terrain features and area names, while the "Jelden" label is in the larger point size used for settlements, and is placed unambiguously right next to the city. Poor Wizard's Almanac III has a similar situation, with "New Grunland" clearly marking the area, while Jelden is the city's name. However, despite this all references in the text, in both GAZ13 as well as the Poor Wizard's Almanacs, refer to the northern city of the Shadowlands as "New Grunland". Jelden has no textual references to speak of.

Any opinions on this? The best I can think is that the maps show the official names, but for some reason the city of Jelden is almost universally known by the name of its region. New Grunland appears frequently in GAZ13, and most references clearly refer to the city, so I am reluctant to simply accept that Jelden is the town name while New Grunland is the regional name.
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Chimpman » Tue May 12, 2009 4:01 pm

Heh, I caught this yesterday too, as I was going through Gaz 13 on the Vaults. I'd agree with your assessment. Based on everything I've read, New Grunland is both the name of the cavern and the name of the city. I did a search on the Vaults for Jelden and came up with bupkis.

Based on that I have to think that it is a map error. I would rename the city on the map to New Grunland, and perhaps save Jelden for a town or village near by.
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Chimpman » Thu May 14, 2009 7:56 pm

Thorf wrote:The updated map is an adaptation of GAZ13’s map, implementing cavern walls similar to those seen in GAZ10’s underground map. The walls mean that there is actually a little less land area, but they seem a lot more realistic, and much less general than the hex edges.

This is something that occurred to me while looking at the New Grunland map, but should apply equally across the Shadowlands. It seems like there is an equal justification for moving the cavern walls outward from the original hex positions as there is to move it in. I'd say that both should happen, so that on average we're not loosing any underground "land" area. Of course I wouldn't move the "walls" more than 4 miles in either direction, since that would impact the 8mph map as well.

A general rule might be to move the walls outward near cavern exit areas (flowing rivers, tunnels, etc), and to move them inward in other locations to compensate. Of course making the final decisions on cavern wall placement is probably best held off until we do more detailed maps of each of the caverns - like with New Grunland. During such exercises it might become more apparent if we should move the walls outward or inward in certain areas.
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Mon May 18, 2009 10:54 am

Thorf wrote:Any opinions on this? The best I can think is that the maps show the official names, but for some reason the city of Jelden is almost universally known by the name of its region. New Grunland appears frequently in GAZ13, and most references clearly refer to the city, so I am reluctant to simply accept that Jelden is the town name while New Grunland is the regional name.


As Grunland was an area and not a city, I'd rather have New Grunland as the area's name, and call its main city Jelden. I'd favor this solution mostly becouse it's unrealistic to have a city named as the region where it's found (by the way, this happens all too often on Mystara: Glantri City --> Glantri, Darokin City --> Darokin, Ierendi --> Ierendi, Minrothad --> Minrothad, Wendar --> Wendar, Ylaruam --> Ylaruam, Soderfjord --> Soderfjord, etc.; and that's a thing which instead happens only rarely on our world, like in Mexico City --> Mexico, and a few city-states like San Marino, Monaco and Singapore).
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Mon May 18, 2009 12:24 pm

Zendrolion wrote:As Grunland was an area and not a city, I'd rather have New Grunland as the area's name, and call its main city Jelden. I'd favor this solution mostly becouse it's unrealistic to have a city named as the region where it's found (by the way, this happens all too often on Mystara: Glantri City --> Glantri, Darokin City --> Darokin, Ierendi --> Ierendi, Minrothad --> Minrothad, Wendar --> Wendar, Ylaruam --> Ylaruam, Soderfjord --> Soderfjord, etc.; and that's a thing which instead happens only rarely on our world, like in Mexico City --> Mexico, and a few city-states like San Marino, Monaco and Singapore).


I agree this is a good argument, because Grunland was of course a region rather than a city. But you totally contradicted yourself in the latter half of your argument. ;) Aside from anything else, I'd say that Mystaran patterns are more valid for making decisions about Mystara than real world patterns. Even if a lot of Mystara is inspired by real world stuff, it's still Mystara, after all, and as you say there is huge precedent for having regions and cities with the same names.

Besides, there are many more real world examples that you didn't mention. I live in Akita, Akita, above Yamagata, Yamagata, below Aomori, Aomori, and close to Fukushima, Fukushima - and there are many more examples of this in Japan. Then there's the famous New York, New York; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Luxembourg, Luxembourg (and other similar city states). You can surely find more examples of this if you search for regions with the same name for the regional capital rather than countries with the same name. And if you consider that places such as Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire are just the same but with a regular suffix, this concept is hugely widespread.

In any case, the argument about New Grunland being meant to be the name of the region only holds if you ignore completely the numerous text references to it as the city name, and accept the single, somewhat strangely labelled map reference. The fact remains that the city is explicitly referred to by the name of New Grunland 12 times in the Gazetteer.

There's another issue here, too: we can change the map easily, but we can't change the text. Changing the city name to Jelden (accepting the map version of things) will result in just as much confusion as the original text/map conflict.

Finally, none of the other city regions on the Shadow Elf map get regional names. Even the City of the Stars only gets "the Great Cavern" - and only in the text. We can never be sure that the map situation was a mistake, but it is undeniably strange.

Quite a thorny issue, this is. :?
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Re: Outer World: Shadow Elf Territories, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Mon May 18, 2009 6:15 pm

Thorf wrote:But you totally contradicted yourself in the latter half of your argument. ;)


I was only trying to say that, as the identification of a region's name with its main city's name happens all too often in Mystara, there'd be no need to have another example of it, mostly when we have two official names to work with (like New Grunland and Jelden).

Anyway, it was only an idea - I mean, if I'd ever play in the Shadowlands (yes, I never did nor sent my PCs there! :o ), I'd favor the name 'Jelden' for the city. :)

Besides, there are many more real world examples that you didn't mention.


Note that ALL Italian provinces have their capital's name (i.e. city of Milan in the Province of Milan, city of Naples in the Province of Naples, and so on). But please note also that in cases such as these - and the ones you mentioned above - we aren't talking about historical names, but about administrative labels chosen LATER by national states.

Thus, names chosen in this way could IMO apply mostly in one of two instances: (1) a city which later expands to become a larger state (like the Republic of Venice, of the Empire of Rome), or (2) a region which is later given its main city's name becouse it's its most prominent feature (like the State of New York, or the moorish Kingdom of Granada).

All in all, I don't know how many times this could apply on Mystara.
For example, names such as Glantri and Darokin have been added later to the respective countries to represent their founder's name (as if the 13 North American colonies would have chosen in 1776 the name "United States of Washington"), while other such as Minrothad and Ylaruam take their main city's name as the country's name ("United States of Philadelphia", or "of New York", or something like that). Anyway note that these are all politically-chosen names, not historically-stratified ones: neither Darokin nor Glantri or Minrothad was ever called by that name before the birth of a particular political regime.

Now, to come back to the "New Grunland-Jelden" issue, as Grunland was a region's name I think it difficult that the Shadow Elves would have chosen it as the name of a city. I mean, New Spain wasn't the name of a city, but of old Spanish Mexico (IIRC), and the same it's said about New Holland (nowadays Australia), or New England, or New Zeeland (Zeeland is one of the Netherlands' historical provinces).

So, I don't mind keep calling the city New Grunland, and I'd not commit suicide if you cast away the 'Jelden' label, but I only reasoned that IMHO it'd make more sense if New Grunland applied to the region rather than the city. ;)
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Re: Outer World: Shadowlands, 8 miles per hex

Postby Andaire » Mon May 18, 2009 10:51 pm

Actually a lot of Italian and German states or city-states had the same name as the main city, not just Venice: Naples, Genoa, your own city of Florence, etc. In the HRE's era, the German city-states were too numerous to even start enumerating them (only Luxembourg remains). That was also the case in the pre-Russian Russian states (Novgorod, ...), in the Balkans, the Greek states (classical Greece, but also medieval like the Duchy of Athens). Not to mention Rome, or Byzantium.
In most of these cases, these were city-states or states built from a city, that have disappeared though nation-building.
Note that there are also instances outside of Europe, eg Tunis in Tunisia or Algiers in Algeria.
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Re: Outer World: Shadowlands, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Tue May 19, 2009 9:45 am

Andaire wrote:Actually a lot of Italian and German states or city-states had the same name as the main city, not just Venice: Naples, Genoa, your own city of Florence, etc. In the HRE's era, the German city-states were too numerous to even start enumerating them (only Luxembourg remains). That was also the case in the pre-Russian Russian states (Novgorod, ...), in the Balkans, the Greek states (classical Greece, but also medieval like the Duchy of Athens). Not to mention Rome, or Byzantium.
In most of these cases, these were city-states or states built from a city, that have disappeared though nation-building.
Note that there are also instances outside of Europe, eg Tunis in Tunisia or Algiers in Algeria.


Of course you're right, and I agree with you: in fact all the city/states/city-states you mention fall under the loose case classification I indicated in my previous post:

(1) a city which later expands to become a larger state (like the Republic of Venice, of the Empire of Rome), or (2) a region which is later given its main city's name becouse it's its most prominent feature (like the State of New York, or the moorish Kingdom of Granada).


Almost all the cases you mention fall under condition (1).

All in all, I'm not saying naming a city "New Grunland" would be wrong (even less so if that's a canon-supported decision, like this one), but that I'd see it a name more properly given to a region. ;)
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Re: Outer World: Shadowlands, 8 miles per hex

Postby Hugin » Tue May 19, 2009 3:01 pm

I think that since we have two canon names we really should use them; I vote New Grunland as the name of the region and Jelden as the name of the city.

Of course, this raises the question, what and where was the original Grunland? Was it really named after the land far, far to the south? Was it named after a region on Brun that was named after the original? Was it named after the city was destroyed and the cavern lost to [insert threat here] and then reclaimed and rebuilt under a Shadow Elf named Jelden who's name was given to the city and the region named after the old city?
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Re: Outer World: Shadowlands, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Tue May 19, 2009 3:25 pm

I think there's no question of discarding the name "Jelden" - it's just a matter of how we use it.

Actually I have been thinking about another way to go with this issue. There are a number of different ways to do it:

1. The official name for the city was originally New Grunland. Over time this came to be used as the name for the region too, and the authorities came up with a new name for the city: Jelden. But it hasn't really stuck, so that a lot of people still refer to the city as New Grunland. A good way to do this would be to split the usage geographically, so that for example New Grunlanders never use the new name, but shadow elves living in other regions do - or vice versa.

2. The official name for the city was originally (and possibly still is) Jelden. However, New Grunland, the regional name, has come to be used to refer to the city, so that the vast majority of shadow elves simply refer to it as New Grunland. This makes some sense given that none of the other major regions have their own names.

The idea behind both these options is to reflect the conflicting official information in the world, rather than simply discarding one view and accepting the other. After all, when it comes down to it both the text and the map are official, and the best way out is surely to find a reasonable explanation for the inconsistency rather than making a judgement on which way we like best.

You see, I really do appreciate the elegance of just going with the map situation, and I agree that it many ways it does make more sense. But at the same time I can't just disregard the text either. If the references weren't so many, and so clear in my memory, the situation might be different, I suppose.
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Re: Outer World: Shadowlands, 8 miles per hex

Postby stanles » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:52 am

Thorf, does this map http://pandius.com/shadow-elves-8-cavern-walls.png have any use any more?
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