[Outer World] Darokin, 8 miles per hex

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[Outer World] Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:24 am

Darokin, 8 miles per hex by Thorf

Image Image Image Image Image Image

Click on the thumbnails to view these maps' pages in the Atlas of Mystara, where you can get the full resolution maps.

If you have any comments, corrections, or suggestions for things to add to the map, please post them here.

References
  1. Darokin Provinces - discussion thread at the Wizards MMB. (DEFUNCT)
Last edited by Thorf on Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:49 pm, edited 13 times in total.
Reason: Rewrote post completely.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:25 am

I haven't finished the replica maps for Darokin yet, but since we have started discussing Darokin-related issues in another thread, I have decided to post this thread early. Let's try to keep all internal Darokin discussions in this thread. :)

Here are the relevant extracts of posts made in the Alfheim thread:

Zendrolion wrote:Alfheim is a problematic map - but, after all, is there any Mystaran map without problems? :D

First one personal suggestion (mostly centered on outlying areas):

Fenhold: While this issue has long be debated in the old forum, and while we know that the dominion from CM9 is found in the same area as GAZ11's Dolos - I think the position labeled "Fenhold" in the map should really be changed.
First of all, I think it's better to move Fenhold than Dolos. Second, the label "Fenhold" on your updated map is found in an area which, according to GAZ11, is Heartlands and NOT Borderlands (as it should be, given Fenhold is a feudal dominion).
I think the best position for Fenhold (also given the direction of the street passing through it according to CM9's map) is south of Glowtree good magic point in Alfheim.
That is, I'd have the uppermost hex of Fenhold right over the 8-m hex south-west of Glowtree, where the 'TH' of "Canolbarth Borderlands" label is found on the map.


Thorf wrote:This was actually resolved years ago, but I never updated the Alfheim map due to problems with my computer at the time. You can see the final solution on my Darokin map here (or here for a domestic-only version). I think the solution is basically the same as what you proposed here. :)


Zendrolion wrote:Oh, I see. I remember that fix (becouse I took part in the discussions :) ), but seeing that label I thought you had thought again about it and changed that particular. So, no problem! ;)


Cthulhudrew wrote:Personally, I think Dolos should be moved slightly myself. It only takes a very slight move of the town to fix the Fenhold/Dolos problems, as I've found in mapping the area.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:45 am

How does moving Dolos help? It's part of a Heartlands realm, so if you accept the GAZ11 map, the 24 mile hex that it's in is not an option for Fenhold anyway.

Personally I tend to rate the Gazetteer maps above the older module maps, so in general I'm more inclined to adapt the module maps to fit the Gazetteers rather than the other way round.

My general rules for dealing with this sort of issue are:

  1. Newer maps take priority over older maps, except where they needlessly miss out or delete elements of older maps.
  2. The larger the scale, the more priority the map has. Thus 8 miles per hex is better than 24 miles, and 1 mile is better than 8. (72 mile per hex maps are absolutely not to be trusted, as even a low level of inconsistency in them throws off the larger scale maps horribly.)
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:27 am

As I've already exposed my position on the Fenhold issue, I'll post my usual bunch of addition from canon sources:

Town (village) of Utica (from Dungeon Magazine #42, D&D Adventure "Ransom" by David Howery, July/August 1993, vol. VII no. 6, page 37)
This village is described as a "small village" or a "small town" (I'd say village), about 10 miles north of Karameikos' northern border, and north of Threshold. I think it's on a mountain pass crossing the Black Peaks from Armstead to Threshold. I fixed the position of Utica in this map at the Vaults (the second one; the yellow grid overlay represents 8-m map). As you can see, Utica's location can be chosen between three 8-m mountain hexes.

In [i]Dungeon #42
, the village is described as such:

This small town survives by offering services to bandits as they move along the border. Few of the residents have any morals. The town is always starved for cash and supplies, and crime is a way of life for many.

An thus we understand perfectly why this mountain pass isn't used in favour of that crossed by the Duke's Road. :roll:

Letizia village (from Joshuan's Almanac & Book of Facts by Ann Dupuis and Elizabeth Tornabene, 1995, TSR 2517, page 230)
The village is located somewhere in Fort Lakeside's area.

Blizzard Pass (from MSOLO1 Module for Basic Set "Blizzard Pass" by David Cook, TSR 9067, 1983)
The pass is described as the "treacherous path that winds over the Cruth Mountains between the Five Shires and Darokin".
I'd say it's the one which from Mar goes to Ringrise.

Lake Eadaigh (from PC1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk, by John Nephew, TSR 9254, 1989, Adventure Booklet, page 11)
This lake could be located at the border with Alfheim, according to the adventure.

Sarsdell village
I cite myself from the topic on Glantri.
* Village of Sarsdell (from BSOLO).
Well, the location of this one is uncertain - probably it should be in Darokin at the borders of the Broken Lands, in the neighbourhood of Corunglain. But placing it in Glantri (Bramyra area or so) could be another possibility.
The indications the friend of the PC gives him on page 7 say: "Follow the Streel River east for six days, and then hike north for two. After eight days, you should be able to see that great stone lion rising from the plain", and below the module says "You cross the river by ferry and turn east to walk along the river. The great grassland of the Ethengar
Khanate stretches out ahead of you".
Now, there's no part of the Streel river along the Glantri-Ethengar border, crossing which you could find immediately within Ethengar, so probably the module skips the travel of the PC through the eastern trail passing through the Broken Land and only starts telling the story once the PC enters the steppes. This reasoning is consistent with the travel times given in the module (6 days following the streel on the trail - that is about 324 miles unencumbered and at speed x1,5 thanks to the trail - then turning north in the Kaeruts' lands and walking for additional 2 days = 6 hexes). The Lion Castle should be found in the 8-m hex above the "Gr.." of the "Sea of Grass" label in the poster map of GAZ12.


Granitgape and Misty Hills (from Lone Hero Expert Adventure "Blade of Vengeance" by Jim Bambra, TSR 9108, 1984)
These Misty Hills should be the Orclands hills around the northern tip of the Canolbarth Forest (where the dragon's lair is found).
Granitgape is instead the dwarven trade post I've indicated in the map thread dedicated to Alfheim. I cite:

Time ago, I overlaid a 24-m grid on the O2's map, and the results were these (labels in red are mine and in Italian):

http://www.gruppoludico.it/naga/Emerlas.bmp

You can see the 24-m grid overlaid over GAZ5's 8-m map there:

http://www.gruppoludico.it/naga/alfheim-8.png

Now, the main problem is that the description of the Emerlas matches that of a border region, where the humanoid warbands easily penetrate and where there are also some non-elven settlements. IF one wanted to keep the size of O2's Emerlas, he would also have to explain just HOW humanoid bands could penetrate so much near Ainsun without any help arriving from Alfheim's government.
Therefore, a solution could be to reduce the size of O2's map so that the Emerlas areas could fit into the uppermost 24-m hex of Alfheim - that is on the area north of Blackwater River on the 8-m map.

Anyway, interesting addition from this map are the lake of the Shining Isle (I'd connect it with the Blackwater River), the elven village of Dorneryll, the human village of Scrubton, the halfling village of Oakendale, and the dwarven stronghold of Granitgape.

Granitgape seems to be right outside Alfheim's borders, so it doesn't pose much of a problem. It could be one of the trading posts estabilished by the Rockhome dwarves' Longstrider Trading Company (see GAZ5, page 31, "The History of Trade") to trade with elves.


East Riding
I recall also such a village in the Darokinian area, but I can't find my sources... I'll make an exhaustive search. :geek:
EDIT: Thorf has found this to be another of the villges of the Barony of Fenhold (from CM9).

The Cairn (from Wrath of the Immortals boxed set by Aaron Allston, TSR 1982, 1992, on the poster map and on the "Part I: Prelude" of adventure book "Immortals' Fury")
This is simply the location where the tomb of the hero Balthac and the dragon Calor is located. The place is shown quite well on the poster map, so no more about it. As per AC 1000, there should be only the cairn of Calor and the small temple-tomb of Balthac, without accompaining barracks and quarters for clerics (likely built after the Ixion vs Rad quarrel).

And that's all for Darokin too. A couple of suggestions:

1) Emerlas Borderlands: This label should be changed IMHO, as the "Emerlas" are the northernmost tip of Alfheim, and this part of the Orclands seems to be quite far from that place. Moreover, as the Emerlas are a region of Alfheim, I don't see why the Darokinians should use an elven name for a part of their country.
I'd change it with Eastern Dwarfgate, from your previous version of the same map (this makes the Dwarfgate borderlands the Western Dwarfgate borderlands).

2) Athenos: IIRC this city has 15,000 inhabitants. Shouldn't it have the "city" symbol instead of the "town" one?

3) Orclands's settlements: how about indicating them with a different symbol (i.e. not "tower/keep", which to me seems a little unsuited for settlements of 5,000 or 10,000 orcs).
Last edited by Zendrolion on Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:44 pm

As always, excellent work! :mrgreen:

Zendrolion wrote:East Riding
I recall also such a village in the Darokinian area, but I can't find my sources... I'll make an exhaustive search. :geek:


It's from CM9 - the eastern village in Fenhold. I came across it today while reading up about Fenhold. :D

However, I'm not sure that it deserves a place on the 8 miles per hex map. Probably better to save it for the detail map of Fenhold. I don't generally like having two villages marked next to each other on a map - it tends to indicate we're putting in too much detail that should only appear on a larger scale map.

1) Emerlas Borderlands: This label should be changed IMHO, as the "Emerlas" are the northernmost tip of Alfheim, and this part of the Orclands seems to be quite far from that place. Moreover, as the Emerlas are a region of Alfheim, I don't see why the Darokinians should use an elven name for a part of their country.
I'd change it with Eastern Dwarfgate, from your previous version of the same map (this makes the Dwarfgate borderlands the Western Dwarfgate borderlands).


From the original thread on this, I think it came from a desire to use the name in general, with the view presumably being that the name applies to the whole area rather than just the forest. And whoever proposed that it go in its current location presumably thought that the Emerlas forest should be placed here rather than northern Alfheim. (It's not impossible, although it would take some creative adjustment.)

In any case I am definitely open for corrections on any of the provinces and their names, so we can deal with this at the same time as we work out finally what to do with the Emerlas in Alfheim. The easiest solution for Darokin is to resume the East Dwarfgate and West Dwarfgate labels that were on this map before.

2) Athenos: IIRC this city has 15,000 inhabitants. Shouldn't it have the "city" symbol instead of the "town" one?


Interesting - if you're right, then it was an official decision (mistake?) to mark it like this. Although I suppose it is on the borderline.

3) Orclands's settlements: how about indicating them with a different symbol (i.e. not "tower/keep", which to me seems a little unsuited for settlements of 5,000 or 10,000 orcs).


That's a tricky one - interesting, though. :) It seems that the official maps often used these symbols to indicate humanoid settlements, regardless of the population. I guess probably it just represents a fortified settlement. What would you propose we change them to?
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:24 pm

Thorf wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:East Riding


It's from CM9 - the eastern village in Fenhold. I came across it today while reading up about Fenhold. :D

Great! I was sure I had seen it somewhere. And yes, I agree it shouldn't appear on the 8-m map (like many of the small villages of the Valley of Wolfes, for example).
Anyway, if that's right for you, I'll continue to put in my posts all infos I can find about a given country; then we'll decide which will fit on the 8-m map and which will not. ;)

From the original thread on this, I think it came from a desire to use the name in general, with the view presumably being that the name applies to the whole area rather than just the forest. And whoever proposed that it go in its current location presumably thought that the Emerlas forest should be placed here rather than northern Alfheim. (It's not impossible, although it would take some creative adjustment.)

Of course I was considering the label misplaced according to O2's original positioning of the Emerlas area. If we can find a good solution to move it (one which saves most canon material), we can also use the label differently. Anyway, I'd prefer to work on the size of Emerlas area, while leaving it where it is (uppermost tip of the Canolbarth).

2) Athenos: IIRC this city has 15,000 inhabitants. Shouldn't it have the "city" symbol instead of the "town" one?


Interesting - if you're right, then it was an official decision (mistake?) to mark it like this. Although I suppose it is on the borderline.

Same as Retebius (Thyatis), I think - which, by the way, has been given the "city" symbol instead.

3) Orclands's settlements: how about indicating them with a different symbol (i.e. not "tower/keep", which to me seems a little unsuited for settlements of 5,000 or 10,000 orcs).


That's a tricky one - interesting, though. :) It seems that the official maps often used these symbols to indicate humanoid settlements, regardless of the population. I guess probably it just represents a fortified settlement. What would you propose we change them to?

Then why they indicated Dast (an orc settlement, IIRC) with the "village" symbol? :?
Along those that was done with Fort Doom (Karameikos), which has been indicated with the "fort" symbol instead of "town" one (despite having 10,000 inhabitants), we could use "fort" symbol also for these humanoid strongholds.
We could use the "fort" symbol for any fortified settlement with mostly military purposes but also with a civilian population, within the "town" range regarding the number of inhabitants (from 1,000 to 14,999). This would save the use of "fort" symbol for Darokinian forts, which, IIRC, have all (ar almost all) a population higher than 1,000 (considering civilians + military). Strongholds with less than 1,000 inhabitants could be represented with the "castle" symbol. "Keep/Tower" symbol could be used instead for fortified holdings without civilian population.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:32 pm

Update: I'm about halfway through work on the GAZ11 replica map now. I updated the notes in the first post of this thread with some stuff I noticed while working on it.

Has anyone noticed the "Street River" typo before? :o I don't recall ever noticing it before, and it really surprised me finding it tonight. It may well be the worst typo on any of the Mystaran maps. :geek:
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Hugin » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:26 pm

Thorf wrote:Has anyone noticed the "Street River" typo before? :o I don't recall ever noticing it before, and it really surprised me finding it tonight. It may well be the worst typo on any of the Mystaran maps. :geek:

:?: On the original gaz map or on your replica? I honestly never noticed it on either of them and I'm really hoping it isn't on the gaz original or that would mean I've looked at it countless times and still didn't see it.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:27 am

Hugin wrote: :?: On the original gaz map or on your replica? I honestly never noticed it on either of them and I'm really hoping it isn't on the gaz original or that would mean I've looked at it countless times and still didn't see it.


Shocking, isn't it? :? I suppose "T" and "L" don't look all that dissimilar in Feinen Bold, so it's not all that surprising we didn't notice it before. And as far as I can see all the other maps showing the river (of which there are rather a lot) have it correctly labelled.

(And yes it's on the original map, hence on my replica too. If it was just on my replica I wouldn't be posting here about it - I'd just correct it quickly before anyone noticed. ;) :lol: )
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Hugin » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:38 pm

I completely forgot to look at my Darokin map by the time I got home late last night. I'll try to remember to look at it tonight. I must see this with my own eyes. Goes to show you how well we actually notice things, eh?
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:43 am

Hugin wrote:I completely forgot to look at my Darokin map by the time I got home late last night. I'll try to remember to look at it tonight. I must see this with my own eyes. Goes to show you how well we actually notice things, eh?


Yep, that was precisely my point. I'll be very interested to hear whether the mistake is present on other people's maps, because it's entirely possible that they discovered and corrected it in later printings.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby happylarry » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:46 pm

I've got street river on mine - you just read it as streel because you know that is what it should be. don;t know if they did more than one gazeteer printing - I would have got mine pretty much the month it cmae out in the UK ( :( fondly remembering when you used to be able to do that...)

time for a 'top ten typos' thread?!?
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:16 pm

happylarry wrote:I've got street river on mine - you just read it as streel because you know that is what it should be. don;t know if they did more than one gazeteer printing - I would have got mine pretty much the month it cmae out in the UK ( :( fondly remembering when you used to be able to do that...)


Mine is probably the same as yours in that respect - I bought it direct from TSR Hobby Shop UK, probably when it came out (or just after).

I always assumed the Gazetteers mostly had just one printing, but lately I discovered evidence to the contrary. Specifically, GAZ7's PDF shows a dominion map of Ostland with no numbers, while the hard copy I bought last month has a corrected version with all the numbers in place. I haven't been able to check my original copy yet.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:00 pm

Update: I added the replica map and its original colours variant, in both PNG and PDF form.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby NPCDave » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:20 am

I was looking for a place to set Utica when I came across this thread.

This Dungeon Magazine(#42) also mentions a Sir Reynald which has a northern border fort near Threshold. Did you ever place this? The players start near Threshold and are summoned to this fort/castle.

Although Utica is 10 miles north of the Duchy's border, putting it deep in mountains where goblins and giants live makes me wonder how the place can survive. I might interpret that to be 10 miles north of the Duke's borders of control, leaving it in Karameikos but in unsettled lands near the Darokin border.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby NPCDave » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:57 am

Having thought about this a bit, and see where Eltan's Spring is, I am wondering if I should put that castle of Sir Reynald in Eltan's Spring, to protect it.

I am also thinking of placing Utica where "The Manor" is located on your maps, but can you tell me what D&D book you got the Manor from? Or is it something from your own campaign?

Glad I checked these maps, I was about to run B10 into Foamfire valley and realized the maps in B10 have been superceded a bit, what is one valley in B10 becomes two clearly marked ones in later GAZ maps.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:46 am

Update: I added the new updated map incorporating the Islands of Lake Amsorak detail map.

I need to get back to this thread soon and add in Zendrolion's list of changes.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:39 pm

Thorf wrote:Update: I added the new updated map incorporating the Islands of Lake Amsorak detail map.


Is there any particular reason becouse you didn't put the "hill" hex symbol on the isles' hexes? :?:
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:45 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
Thorf wrote:Update: I added the new updated map incorporating the Islands of Lake Amsorak detail map.


Is there any particular reason becouse you didn't put the "hill" hex symbol on the isles' hexes? :?:


Um... No, not really. :oops: :lol: I suppose I was still thinking they were too small, but now that I look again I could probably put symbols on three or four of them.

Well noticed, Simone. :D
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:59 pm

I uploaded another new version, this time with hills hexes with symbols on the islands. Itheldown Island looks great, but I'm not sure about the smaller two islands...
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:39 pm

IMO they look better in this fashion. Great job! ;)

Moreover, given now there's room aplenty around the islands, you could also put an "Itheldown Castle" label next to the ruin symbol on Itheldown island. :ugeek:
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Hugin » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:37 pm

Definitely like the islands with the hills! Looks good.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Havard » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:46 pm

Hugin wrote:Definitely like the islands with the hills! Looks good.


Ditto! The inclusion of the islands with hill symbols makes this the definite map of Darokin :)

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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:55 am

I'm working on the updated Darokin map. (Why, and why now? Who knows! My mind works on a semi-random basis, skipping about my vast project on a whim... :lol: ) And I see I never replied to these comments:

Zendrolion wrote:
Thorf wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:2) Athenos: IIRC this city has 15,000 inhabitants. Shouldn't it have the "city" symbol instead of the "town" one?

Interesting - if you're right, then it was an official decision (mistake?) to mark it like this. Although I suppose it is on the borderline.

Same as Retebius (Thyatis), I think - which, by the way, has been given the "city" symbol instead.


I checked up on this and it seems that Poor Wizard's Almanac I lists Athenos as 15,000. However, the Gazetteer itself quotes the population as follows: "Athenos is also one of Darokin's largest towns, with a population of nearly 15,000." (GAZ11 DM's Guide page 14b) We can therefore deduce that in 1000 AC it is indeed a large town, with a population somewhere between 14,500 and 14,999. By 1010 AC, the population has increased to the point that it has become a city. This is actually very good to know, because it will help with the 1010 AC map later. :D

Note: I have moved discussion of the Orclands settlement symbols issue to a new Mapping Issues thread.
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Re: Outer World: Darokin, 8 miles per hex

Postby Bonetti » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:07 am

While the square maps (incorporating the surrounding or enclosed areas) are great for publication in an atlas-like book, I really like having the map of just the country for purposes of sharing with players.

So, I know the intention is to move to the square maps, but I'd appreciate it if you would consider keeping one without the surrounds, too :-)
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