Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

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Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Chimpman » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:07 am

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Map of the Known World, circa BC 1720, 8 miles per hex by John Calvin, September 2011 (Work In Progress)
Image Image Image Image

Comments
1) The major geological events of the BC 1700s are over and most of the shorlines in southern Brun are identical to those in the modern era.
2) The Great Plateau is completely destroyed in BC 1720.
3) The Thanegioth Archipelago is in its modern day formation with many separate islands. The power of Adhuza is broken in the area at this time.
4) Ethengar is an interesting place during this time. Akkila Khan (southern steppes) allies with the Ethengar to fight off Loark's Great Horde which is moving in from the north (through Norwold and Antalian territory). Later Akkila is betrayed by his own allies.
5) There is still a lot to do on this map - city placement and borders still need to be worked out.

Sources:


References
  1. Mystara BC 2300
  2. GazH Project
  3. Anciant Nithian Kingdom
  4. CM9: The City of Deep Swamp
  5. Collection Towers
Thanks to: Thorfinn Tait, for providing some wonderful graphics to use in all of our mapping projects, Hugin for his work on the GazH project, James Mishler for his early work on Ancient Nithia. Thanks to Havard, Birchbeer, and RobJN for participating in this discussion and helping to develop this map.
Last edited by Chimpman on Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Havard » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:58 pm

Impressive!

I need a reminder of what Grondheim is all about? It does seem rather huge for a unified realm?

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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Hugin » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:17 pm

I just love this series of historical maps, Chimpman! Fantastic job and thanks for posting them!

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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Chimpman » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:17 pm

Thanks guys!
Havard wrote:I need a reminder of what Grondheim is all about? It does seem rather huge for a unified realm?
Grondheim was the realm of Giants and Fey - controlled by the Torll Queen and her ilk. We had that idea that at one point the trolls were much more intelligent and magically inclined and that at some point in time the Troll Queen did something to curse them (leaving what we know of as modern trolls). Anyway in BC 1720, huge chunks of northern Grondheim will have been carved off by elves and possibly others. I might have actually labeled some of those in the BC1750 map, but I haven't gotten around to adding them to this one yet.

Another thing I have yet to think about is the Troll Queen's curse, and when that actually happens. Pinning down that time and fleshing out that idea will definitely lead me to some more insights about these maps and where countries and nations are placed. ...In fact I think this idea might just deserve it's own thread over in BC 2300. I may start one up there.
Hugin wrote:I just love this series of historical maps, Chimpman! Fantastic job and thanks for posting them!
Thanks for the support Hugin! This was actually the map I was dreading the most just because of the coast line changes. It turns out that it actually wasn't that hard. Most of the Brun coastlines I was able to lift directly from Thorf's TM1 and TM2 maps (with some minor modifications). The Sea of Dread and Thanegioth Archipelago took a little bit more effort, but I'm fairly happy with how they turned out. I still need to go back and add in reef hexes (which are mostly lacking an all the maps so far).


EDIT:
Next up, by the way, is BC 1700 and the changes caused by the LRoF ;). I believe that those include the formation of the Broken Lands, and the creation of the Land of Black Sand in Ethengar. Fun stuff! And I don't have to mess with shorelines!
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Birchbeer » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:01 am

This map looks really nice. I think if I ever went off and made my own campaign with a Mystara map I'd used this one. I see great ways the various areas could interact. Though, maybe I should hold off till I see the next one :)

Thanks for this and all the maps you've made in the historical series.

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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Chimpman » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:37 am

Thanks Birchbeer, I really appreciate it!

I just uploaded updated versions of all 3 time periods (2000, 1750, and 1720) with more accurate labels. Unfortunately I also just did something really stupid which caused me to loose my master copy of the BC 1720 map. So it might take me a while to recreate it. I'm really bummed out right now. :facepalm:
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Chimpman » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:15 pm

I've just updated the 1720 map and added 2 ancient Blackmoorian locations (both marked with an obelisk symbol). One is in the Hidden Valley in Karameikos, and the second is on the site of Fenhold in Darokin.

Other changes (from 1750): The Fenhold lake has increased in size over the course of the last 30 years and its swamp extended further to the southwest. I'm thinking that either 1) Malpheggi may extend this far north and cover this region as well, or 2) there may be a second lizardfolk nation centered around Fenhold (at least in the short term). River flow in Darokin also changes slightly again, and Amsorak lake dries up even more.
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Havard » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:20 pm

Cool. :cool:
I am a little hestiant about the idea of a lake around Fenhold, but I will post more about that in the other thread.

What's the background for a Blackmoor connection to the Hidden Valley? I had it as a Taymoran research post myself, but nothing prior to that... (Assuming we are talking about Hutaaka here).


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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by RobJN » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:35 pm

Havard wrote:Cool. :cool:
I am a little hestiant about the idea of a lake around Fenhold, but I will post more about that in the other thread.

What's the background for a Blackmoor connection to the Hidden Valley? I had it as a Taymoran research post myself, but nothing prior to that... (Assuming we are talking about Hutaaka here).


-Havard
I think John may be referencing my rewrite of B10's "Vault of the Ancients" as being a Blackmoor colony.
Thorn's Chronicle wrote:“No dwarf made this,” Varis said, running a gloved hand over smooth walls of metal. Plate after plate lined the walls, ceiling, and floor, broken only by gratings along the floor, and panels of clouded glass along the ceiling, most of which were dark. Perhaps every third or fourth flickered with a bright, but cold white light.

The floor and walls thrummed, and listening at a grate revealed both a low rumbling and a high-pitched humming, though I could not make out any kind of source. A low gurgling at one grate further up the passage suddenly rose in pitch, and a gout of steam flooded the hallway. Thankfully not scalding, it was enough to soak through cloaks and sleeves.
I suppose next he'll be wanting maps of the facilities :roll: :D
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Havard » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:49 pm

Cool!
I had missed that part. Thanks for the link & quote Rob! :)

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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Chimpman » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:55 pm

RobJN wrote:
Havard wrote:Cool. :cool:
I am a little hestiant about the idea of a lake around Fenhold, but I will post more about that in the other thread.

What's the background for a Blackmoor connection to the Hidden Valley? I had it as a Taymoran research post myself, but nothing prior to that... (Assuming we are talking about Hutaaka here).


-Havard
I think John may be referencing my rewrite of B10's "Vault of the Ancients" as being a Blackmoor colony.
Yup, and I'll add to that our discussion of Collection Towers again. I should probably put those links in the first post. I do realize that Rob's view of Mystara is not strictly canon, however I also believe that there is enough fudge room to incorporate many of the ideas from "Thorn's World" into a historical map. That might mean I have to be a bit more vague when describing such locations, for example calling them Blackmoor era sites rather than Blackmoorian sites, and then let individual DMs choose how they want to use them exactly.

I'm also really fond of the idea that such sites would be re-used throughout the millenia by different cultures - some of which may not have any knowledge of the previous occupants.
RobJN wrote:
Thorn's Chronicle wrote:“No dwarf made this,” Varis said, running a gloved hand over smooth walls of metal. Plate after plate lined the walls, ceiling, and floor, broken only by gratings along the floor, and panels of clouded glass along the ceiling, most of which were dark. Perhaps every third or fourth flickered with a bright, but cold white light.

The floor and walls thrummed, and listening at a grate revealed both a low rumbling and a high-pitched humming, though I could not make out any kind of source. A low gurgling at one grate further up the passage suddenly rose in pitch, and a gout of steam flooded the hallway. Thankfully not scalding, it was enough to soak through cloaks and sleeves.
I suppose next he'll be wanting maps of the facilities :roll: :D
If he doesn't, I do ;)
Havard wrote:Cool. :cool:
I am a little hestiant about the idea of a lake around Fenhold, but I will post more about that in the other thread.
Well, I'm not married to any of the ideas we're talking about now, but my philosophy regarding these maps is to start off by posting a "straw man" map that we can all look at and discuss, and if changes need to be made based on those discussions, then they can be made.

What are your hesitations regarding the lake around Fenhold? My own thoughts are that this lake will fluctuate over the years based on the changes that happen in the Shadowdeep. Pre BC 1700 many passages and tunnels would have been open in the Shadowdeep, but several of those would have collapsed during the BC 1750 and 1720 events that sank Taymora. Because of this I am theorizing that any water runoff that was escaping before the catastrophe would now be backed up and forming a lake. Then once Oenkmar sinks circa BC 1000, some of those passages will open back up again, allowing for most of the lake to drain off, but perhaps leaving more swampland. When the elves start their magic that should drain off most of the excess water, eventually leaving the very small swamp we see in the modern era.

At least that's my initial plan... but I'd love to hear what your concerns are.

Oh, and as an aside, another thing I'd really like to see is how the Shadowdeep changes throughout these time periods as well. That means at some point going back and remapping Shadow Elf and humanoid lands... but I'm not quite ready for that yet.
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Cthulhudrew » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:12 pm

Loving these maps, Chimpman. One question, though- I don't see the Toralai on them anywhere, and wasn't sure if that was an oversight or intentional. Canonically, they are in the (pre) Thyatian region.

Also curious if/what you or anyone else might think about them in terms of where they fit into Known World history at this point. They are seemingly driven out/assimilated by the Thyatian tribes when they come northwards. I'd assume they were probably a basis for Nithian slaves (much as the Northern Reaches folk were), and I've always kind of figured the Traldar were probably a mix of Toralai/Nithians (to account for their different features from both groups, as well as to try and salvage the otherwise somewhat strange canon account of the Traldar being a Nithian clan).
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Chimpman » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:35 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:Loving these maps, Chimpman. One question, though- I don't see the Toralai on them anywhere, and wasn't sure if that was an oversight or intentional. Canonically, they are in the (pre) Thyatian region.

Also curious if/what you or anyone else might think about them in terms of where they fit into Known World history at this point. They are seemingly driven out/assimilated by the Thyatian tribes when they come northwards. I'd assume they were probably a basis for Nithian slaves (much as the Northern Reaches folk were), and I've always kind of figured the Traldar were probably a mix of Toralai/Nithians (to account for their different features from both groups, as well as to try and salvage the otherwise somewhat strange canon account of the Traldar being a Nithian clan).
Thanks CD!

I suppose you could categorize it as an intentional oversight - but only because I'm still not sure what to do with them. The Makai should be on both the BC 1750 and BC 1720 maps as well, since they would have been stranded on the Ierendi Isles along with some of the lizardmen tribes of the time.

One possibility I've been considering is to place them on Alfheim in this era. Supposedly they were plains people who followed the buffalo herds so that seems a likely location where those activities could happen. They would probably have interactions with the Children of the Horse (with whom they may share many cultural traits, though the Toralai would be descended from Neathar stock and the Children from Azcan stock).

Perhaps once the humaniods start to flood that area (after the BC 1700 LRoF) the Toralai would look eastward for a new home, only to be driven right into the fledgling Nithian empire (which promptly makes slaves out of them).

Some questions I'm still trying to answer are, 1) Where did the Toralai and Makai come from? 2) How long were they in the area? (For the Makai at least this must be sometime before BC 1750). 3) Did they come in multiple migrations (with the Makai arriving first and then the Toralai following them)? Why did they enter the region in the first place (or were they here all along)?

Another possibility could be that the Toralai and Makai were descended from the populations native to the BC 2300 Frontierlands and Corsair Isles, and that subsequent disasters drove them back into the stone ages.

I know we've talked about some of these issues before, but I'm still just not sure how to proceed. Any more thoughts on the matter?
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Cthulhudrew » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:55 pm

I echo your thoughts in regards to the buffalo idea; given the buffalo connections (RW wise) with the Oltec/Atruaghin people and the canon connection to the Toralai, I think they should definitely be located in the Known World and share some degree of interaction. Perhaps by this time, the Toralai have been pushed nearer to the Nithia/Thyatis/Traldar region by the more advanced Intua people?

As for their origins, canonically, Neathar lived in and around the Sind region (the Urduk are described as being descended from Neathar), so presumably they came from the west. I'm not really certain how well this fits with the Oltecs, who seemingly occupied the same areas (Savage Coast/pre-Great Waste/western Known World), but then things have always been kind of vague on both points. At the very least, it seems fairly certain that the "white" Neathar and the Oltecs had some very close connections throughout history (and furthers my thoughts that the "Neathar" should actually be a broader group than just the "white" homo sapiens that they seem to mostly be regarded as; ie, the Thousand Tribes of Neathar should exist in all colors and shapes- proto Oltec, proto Antalian, proto Tanagoro, etc.) The Makai are probably a proto-Oltec Neathar group under that guise, while the Toralai are more standard proto Antalian Neathar.

I don't recall exactly what time frame the HW DM guide gives for the Toralai's origins (I want to say it pins it down, but I could be wrong). Perhaps the Toralai emigrated southwards from where the other proto-Antalian Neathar came from, and adapted their big game hunting to the smaller game there? (Ie, switching from mammoths to buffalo?) The Urduk, like the Makai, would then be proto-Oltec Neathar tribes.
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Havard » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:55 pm

I'm thinking that the Neathar would have been related to the Thonians of Skothar. Not that the Thonians/Blackmoorians would be the ancestors of the Brun Neathar, but that at one point the Neathar would have lived on Skothar and in the eastern parts of Brun.

As to the Toralai, I like the idea of them living in the Alfheim region before being gradually pushed into the "Thyatis" corner.

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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Chimpman » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:32 pm

Havard wrote:I'm thinking that the Neathar would have been related to the Thonians of Skothar. Not that the Thonians/Blackmoorians would be the ancestors of the Brun Neathar, but that at one point the Neathar would have lived on Skothar and in the eastern parts of Brun.

As to the Toralai, I like the idea of them living in the Alfheim region before being gradually pushed into the "Thyatis" corner.
I like the Skothar idea as well. I'm not sure what it means for the Sindhi though, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that the Sindhi could have migrated into the region from the direction of Skothar after the GRoF.

Anyway,here is a recent thought I've been toying around with - setting the Makai in the Alfheim region circa BC 2500 (at about the same time as the Taymorans move into the area). They would then be ripe for conquest by both the Taymorans and Intua for the next several hundred years. The majority of the conquered population would find itself in Taymoran lands (ready to re-establish their independence once Taymora is shattered and they are isolated on the Ierendi Islands). Then the second wave of Neathar enters the area... possibly driven to do so by the Ethengarians (or humanoids or both) who are competing for their native lands further north.

That could mean that the Makai inhabit northern Brun starting circa BC 2500, and the Toralai move in circa BC 1800 or so (filling in the gap left by the Makai).

EDIT: That could also mean that the Makai have some direct relation to the Sindhi... perhaps being an easternmost tribe. They would have inhabited all of Intua and into Alfheim after the GRoF. Once the Intua emerge from their Great Plateau, then the Makai start feeling pressure from an aggressive (and possible more advanced) civilization that springs up right in the center of their territory.
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Seer of Yhog » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:43 am

Liking this map, Dr. Chimp! Can't say anything for now, as I'm absorbing the conversation, and to be honest focused a bit more on my new campaign.
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Chimpman » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:52 am

Again, I've updated this map with labels for the Makai and the Toralai. The Makai would be solidly ensconced on the Ierendi islands during this time, coexisting with the lizardmen populations there. The Toralai would be feeling pressures from the Children of the Horse at this point - possibly being driven to the easternmost reaches of their territory.
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:52 am

I may have missed it being mentioned before, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on the Traldar being in this region at this time. According to canon, it wasn't until 1500 BC that they arrived in the lands we now know as Karameikos. Of course, canon seems to be a bit muddled as to the nature of their origins (Neathar or Traldar, though I think the former was merely implied while the latter was explicitly suggested by Aaron Allston).
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Havard » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:13 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:I may have missed it being mentioned before, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on the Traldar being in this region at this time. According to canon, it wasn't until 1500 BC that they arrived in the lands we now know as Karameikos. Of course, canon seems to be a bit muddled as to the nature of their origins (Neathar or Traldar, though I think the former was merely implied while the latter was explicitly suggested by Aaron Allston).
Interesting!
The Traldar are descended from Neathar peoples, living on the border of the Nithia Civilization. In that way, it might actually have made sense to have the Traldar and the Toralai switch places on this map, having the Traldar live on the easternmost parts of the Canolbarth Plains and have the Toralai already in Proto-Thyatian territory (Machetos area). I imagine the Traldar expansion into the Machetos area to be linked to their Golden Age under King Halav.

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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by agathokles » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:03 am

Havard wrote: I imagine the Traldar expansion into the Machetos area to be linked to their Golden Age under King Halav.
I don't think the Golden Age could have achieved so much. First, because Halav was never king of the Traldar, just the king of Lavv/Kelvin.
Second, because the Golden Age didn't last long: Halav's battle with the Beast King could not have taken place more than 20 or 25 years after his ascension to the throne of Lavv, or he would have been too old; and the last part of Halav's reign was took up by the war itself.

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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Havard » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:16 pm

agathokles wrote:I don't think the Golden Age could have achieved so much. First, because Halav was never king of the Traldar, just the king of Lavv/Kelvin.
Second, because the Golden Age didn't last long: Halav's battle with the Beast King could not have taken place more than 20 or 25 years after his ascension to the throne of Lavv, or he would have been too old; and the last part of Halav's reign was took up by the war itself.
I have some thoughts about this that I posted in a separate thread :)

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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Chimpman » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:45 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:I may have missed it being mentioned before, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on the Traldar being in this region at this time. According to canon, it wasn't until 1500 BC that they arrived in the lands we now know as Karameikos. Of course, canon seems to be a bit muddled as to the nature of their origins (Neathar or Traldar, though I think the former was merely implied while the latter was explicitly suggested by Aaron Allston).
You're right about this. I don't know why, but I was thinking that the Traldar were directly descended from the Taymorans, but based on Gaz 1 they are descended from Nithians and enter the area in BC 1500. The label in this era should really be more along the lines of "Taymoran Remnants" rather than Traldar. I do see the two intermingling circa BC 1500 to start the creation of what we know of as the modern Traldar.

I'll make those changes in the next revision. Thanks for these kinds of comments, because they really help pull the map together. After close to 2 dozen years of delving into Mystaran lore sometimes (unfortunately) different events start to bleed together.
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Re: Historical: Known World BC 1720, 8mph

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:16 pm

Chimpman wrote:You're right about this. I don't know why, but I was thinking that the Traldar were directly descended from the Taymorans, but based on Gaz 1 they are descended from Nithians and enter the area in BC 1500. The label in this era should really be more along the lines of "Taymoran Remnants" rather than Traldar. I do see the two intermingling circa BC 1500 to start the creation of what we know of as the modern Traldar.
No worries. I know there have been some different takes on Traldar history, so wasn't sure if you might have been working off one of those or your own take. One thing to consider, and this is something that I've been developing in my own Traldar stuff (and has been incorporated into some of the other Traldar fanon and even is mentioned in the HW guide) is that the Traldar were active in piracy and seafaring- even before King Milen. Perhaps your Corsair culture is/was somehow blended in with the Nithian/Neathar/Traldar peoples when that culture finally starts to materialize?
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