Mapping Issues: Size of Mystara

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Mapping Issues: Size of Mystara

Postby Hugin » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:49 am

This may be a new thread regarding an old topic, but after reviewing older threads I felt it best to start afresh as this is from a fresh perspective.

Here was my approach; how much land was mapped, and how did that fit with latitude info in canon sources?

What I found was contradictions in latitudes (my shock was intense :P ). At first, it appeared as though 60 miles per degree of latitude worked well. Then I looked northerly and it completely fell apart. I went back to hex counting, lots and lots of hex counting.

The PWA I map has one degree equal 84 miles, while PWA II has it equal 60 miles (thus, PWA I places Oceansend at 49°N, while PWA II has it at 63.6°N). Note that these two maps seem to hinge (agree) at where 30°N lies. From that point, PWA I pushes the equator a long way further down; 23 more 72-mile hexes from the bottom of that map, and 10 more hexes past the equator as it shows on the PWA II map (to around Aellos in the Adakkian Sound). That's 720 miles difference!

Then I got a nice surprise. Yes, an honest, truly genuine surprise. It began to appear as though the 72 mile hexes counted very well as one degree latitude. Using PWA II map's location of the equator and counting hexes:
Mivosia at hex 04 [04° N]
Caerdwicca at hex 24.5 [24.5° N]
Thyatis City at hex 33 [33° N]
Glantri City at hex 40 [40° N]
Landfall at hex 47 [47° N]
Oceansend at hex 52.5 [52.5° N]
Alpha at hex 60 [60° N]
Farend at hex 64.5 [64.5° N]

Additional counting and map cross-referencing confirms, in my eyes, that this is a very viable interpretation. But what does it result in for Mystara?
- Mystara is slightly larger than Earth (1.04 times) instead of much smaller (0.78 times); it's circumference is 25,920 miles around instead of 19,448 (Earth being at 24,901),
- The crust is much thicker at 2,293 miles across (unless the Hollow World scale is altered),
- The Hollow World (using a 40-mile hex) has 32 miles to one degree of latitude, and is 3,668 miles across from one side to the other.

For those interested in further details, here are some latitudes from examining birchbeer's massive 24-mile hex Eastern Brun map:
Code: Select all
hex #   °N      Place
12      4°      Mivosia
35      11.7°   Garganin
39.5    13.2°   Tanakumba (Yavdlom)
55.5    18.5°   Chung Tsu (Ochalea)
62      20.7°   Isle of Dread plateau
67      22.3°   Castle Furmenglaive
74      24.7°   Caerdwicca
97.5    32.5°   Edairo
104     34.7°   Threshold
106     35.3°   Darokin
119.5   39.8°   Glantri
124     41.3°   Zeaburg
141     47°     Landfall
155     51.7°   Oceansend
176.5   58.8°   Alpha
191.5   63.8°   Farend
197.5   65.8°   Vaasa
210.5   70.2°   ?Hyborea village?
221.5   73.8°   Camp Avernius
227     75.7°   ?Hyborea ruin?
236     78.7°   top of map


At this point, I'll be adopting this scheme for GazH project purposes.
Last edited by Thorf on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Added Mapping Issues to the thread title.
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Hugin » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:00 am

Here's a quick and rough graphic depiction of the data I've collected.

Image
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Chimpman » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:12 pm

Excellent work Hugin! Just from an ease of use perspective, I totally agree with using 1 72 mph = 1 deg of latitude.
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Birchbeer » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:42 pm

Hugin in regards to my compilation map... where does the the arctic circle and the tropics begin then? I'll update my maps (I believe I still have those ones sourced.. I've actually gone and made my own version for changes) and re-upload. If not then I'll indicate on the pdf's what those markers are latitude wise.
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Hugin » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:43 pm

Thanks Chimpman. The ease of use aspect is what really draws me to this interpretation. True, it makes the latitude markings on the maps 'wrong' (with the exception of the equator), but the markings themselves disagree with one another.

Another thing I wanted to find out was how many 72-mile hex 'columns' are required to be around the equator. From my research I found out that there would be 416 columns. Geoff's 72-mile hex map of Davania provides us with 220 columns from edge to edge, leaving 196 columns unseen. (Davania itself spans 196 columns of the mapped 220, meaning a distance equaling the span of Davania is not shown). I have not yet looked at other maps to see if connections provide any more of these columns mapped out.
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Hugin » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:38 pm

Birchbeer wrote:Hugin in regards to my compilation map... where does the the arctic circle and the tropics begin then? I'll update my maps (I believe I still have those ones sourced.. I've actually gone and made my own version for changes) and re-upload. If not then I'll indicate on the pdf's what those markers are latitude wise.

On your map, to find;
The Northern Tropic - locate Ying Tang (to compare with the list I gave earlier it is hex 69) on the northern tip of Ochalea and count up one. The Tropic crosses along the top edge of that hex (otherwise stated, it runs through the middle of hex 70.5). On the other side of your map, looking at the Serpent Peninsula, the Tropic runs through the middle of the hex directly above the northern-most border of the Ulimwengu Reserve.

The Arctic Circle - Locate Vaasa (hex 197.5) in the Kingdom of Kaarjala and count up two hexes. The Arctic Circle passes through the middle of that hex (199.5).

Note that in my sketch, the curvature of the outer surface begins to change at hex 204 (that is, at 68°), where it starts to 'descend' into the polar opening.
Last edited by Hugin on Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Havard » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:18 pm

Very impressive! This thread really reminded me how much people here are willing to invest in Mystara. Brought a big smile on my face :)

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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Gawain_VIII » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:47 pm

So, basically, what you're saying is... in any scale that matters in any significant way when it comes to actually playing a campaign set in Mystara is...
Earth-size, 'nuff said.

:mrgreen:
(Sorry, just felt like gloating, lol)

Come to think of it, since the size of Earth wasn't as accurately known in the 80's as it is now, I think Frank estimated Earth/Urt/Mystara in the Immortals set to be approx 25k mi (slightly larger than actuality but slightly smaller than you just calculated. So, in the end, I was still right! :twisted:

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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Hugin » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:56 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:So, basically, what you're saying is... in any scale that matters in any significant way when it comes to actually playing a campaign set in Mystara is...
Earth-size, 'nuff said.

You bet. That was my feeling for quite some time as well.

But remember, it wasn't any writing that determined my numbers. It was based mainly on how much north-south land had been mapped out on the hex maps (and not on any non-hex maps).

Come to think of it, since the size of Earth wasn't as accurately known in the 80's as it is now, I think Frank estimated Earth/Urt/Mystara in the Immortals set to be approx 25k mi (slightly larger than actuality but slightly smaller than you just calculated. So, in the end, I was still right! :twisted:

There are times when I honestly wonder if the map makers had any idea of the size of the planet when making their maps. I wouldn't be surprised that, if no specific info was given to them regarding that, they'd just assume the planet to be Earth-sized.

And thanks, Havard. It was my pleasure to bring you a smile today!
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Birchbeer » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:01 pm

Hugin wrote:
Birchbeer wrote:Hugin in regards to my compilation map... where does the the arctic circle and the tropics begin then? I'll update my maps (I believe I still have those ones sourced.. I've actually gone and made my own version for changes) and re-upload. If not then I'll indicate on the pdf's what those markers are latitude wise.

On your map, to find;
The Northern Tropic - locate Ying Tang (to compare with the list I gave earlier it is hex 69) on the northern tip of Ochalea and count up one. The Tropic crosses along the top edge of that hex (otherwise stated, it runs through the middle of hex 70.5). On the other side of your map, looking at the Serpent Peninsula, the Tropic runs through the middle of the hex directly above the northern-most border of the Ulimwengu Reserve.

The Arctic Circle - Locate Vaasa (hex 197.5) in the Kingdom of Kaarjala and count up two hexes. The Arctic Circle passes through the middle of that hex (199.5).

Note that in my sketch, the curvature of the outer surface begins to change at hex 204, where it starts to 'descend' into the polar opening.



I've updated my maps to reflect the moving north of the Arctic and Tropical Circle. Check it out and let me know if it looks good. :)
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Hugin » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:44 pm

Birchbeer wrote:I've updated my maps to reflect the moving north of the Arctic and Tropical Circle. Check it out and let me know if it looks good. :)

The Arctic Circle is spot on, but the Northern Tropic should be half of a hex higher.

Your map has proven very useful! Thanks so much!
Last edited by Hugin on Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Birchbeer » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:46 pm

I've repositioned the Northern Tropics hopefully I'm on target now.
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Tom Bulls Eye » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:15 pm

Hugin wrote:Here's a quick and rough graphic depiction of the data I've collected.

Image


Awesome map. I'm stupified :ugeek:
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Hugin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:06 pm

Tom Bulls Eye wrote:
Hugin wrote:Here's a quick and rough graphic depiction of the data I've collected.


Awesome map. I'm stupified :ugeek:

Actually, I just noticed a mistake. "Isle of Dawn" is supposed to be "Isle of Dread plateau". :oops:

Birchbeer, I hate to say it but it didn't move up quite far enough. I think you moved it up only a quarter of a hex instead of half a hex. If you see where the Tropic goes above Ying Tang on the map right now, it should be pushed up just a touch so that it goes in between the two hexes (and through the very middle of the hexes to either side). This is a difficult thing to do using only words, isn't it?!

Would this help?
Code: Select all
   \_/ \_/
  _/_\_/_\_______ Tropic
   \_/ \_/
  _/ \_/ \_
   \_/@\_/
  _/ \_/ \_        @ = the hex that Ying Tang is in
   \_/ \_/

Wow, that wasn't as easy as I thought it would be.
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Birchbeer » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:56 pm

Hmm, I was worried I was a little too low. When I get home from work I'll adjust it a wee bit more.
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Birchbeer » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:00 pm

Okay, third times a charm? Review and let me know :)
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Hugin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:09 pm

Birchbeer wrote:Okay, third times a charm? Review and let me know :)

Perfect!
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Hugin » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:18 pm

Hugin wrote:
Tom Bulls Eye wrote:
Hugin wrote:Here's a quick and rough graphic depiction of the data I've collected.


Awesome map. I'm stupified :ugeek:

Actually, I just noticed a mistake. "Isle of Dawn" is supposed to be "Isle of Dread plateau". :oops:

Gah, I just noticed another silly mistake; "Autumn Solstice" is supposed to be "Winter Solstice". Spring and Autumn Equinox will have the sun's rays coming straight horizontal across the page.
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Re: Size of Mystara

Postby Birchbeer » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:07 pm

Hugin... here is the thread I post a bit back concerning an attempt to map the world with just hexes...
http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4878

and within it is this post:
http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=345


(I went looking for this after reading map projections again... it always gives me a head ache).
I think we should sticky the second post in this thread as it highlights a lot of the mapping challenges we encounter when trying to properly determine travel, continent shape and other things.
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