[Outer World] Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

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[Outer World] Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:22 pm

Minrothad, 8 miles per hex by Thorf

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Last edited by Thorf on Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Rewrote post completely.

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Re: Outer World: Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:45 pm

hmm, Harbourtown?
I know why you do that, but...
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Re: Outer World: Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:58 pm

Verdon/Verdun
Might it be two versions of the same names, maybe one Meditor and one Verdier?
BTW Verdun (or it might have become Verdon, many names evolved that way) is Celt for river fort (vir+dunum).
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Re: Outer World: Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:11 am

Andaire wrote:hmm, Harbourtown?
I know why you do that, but...
Do what? :D (Where's my smiley with a halo? ;) )

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Re: Outer World: Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:19 am

Andaire wrote:Verdon/Verdun
Might it be two versions of the same names, maybe one Meditor and one Verdier?
BTW Verdun (or it might have become Verdon, many names evolved that way) is Celt for river fort (vir+dunum).
That could certainly be one answer.

The reason I'm reluctant to use Verdun, as I'm sure you know, is its status as a real world place, and the history of it. More than 300,000 people died in the Battle of Verdun in 1916, and at least in Europe it's pretty famous. I think generally it's best to avoid appropriating the names of places where bad things have happened in recent history.

With that said, the official name is clearly either Verdun or Verdon, and I'm not proposing a change to something else, just that we choose the less similar Verdon. Besides, the Gazetteer itself clearly favours Verdon.

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Re: Outer World: Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by LoZompatore » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:23 pm

I think it would be a good idea to add also the town/city of Serendib, a thriving merchantile settlement of the Minrothad Guilds that is mentioned in two official supplements:

Dungeon Magazine #9, "The Djinni Ring" adventure:

After many days of travel across the hot sands, you began the long sea journey home, eventually landing in the port of Serendib, one of the cities of the Minrothad Guilds


AC10- Bestiary of Dragon and Giants, "Isle of the Storm Giants" adventure:

The scenario begins in the port of Serendib, which may be placed in the DM’s campaign world or set in the eastern region of the D&D game world’s wilderness overseen by the Minrothad guilds.

The port of Serendib has long been a prosperous trading center where exotic goods from around the world are offered for sale and barter. Much of the credit for the city's bustling commerce lies with the effective guidance of its powerful merchants’ guild, which possesses trading agreements with sovereigns and business people from many foreign lands.

The placement of the town/city is not given, even if it seems that this settlement has a direct sea route to the city of Specularum (from Dungeon Magazine #9 info). Some years ago, in the Italian Message Board, we placed the settlement on Alfeisle, on the promontory that lays 3 hexes NW from Mount Olwin volcano. The place faces the intersection of two different sea routes, and one of these directly leads to Specularum.

I'm not sure about the symbol for this settlement, but I think it deserves at least a "town" landmark. ;)

On another matter, I agree with the Verdon choice ;)

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Re: Outer World: Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:20 pm

Update: Minor hex art update and a small error fixed. All the replica PNGs and PDFs have been updated.

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Re: Outer World: Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Cthulhudrew » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:00 am

Cross-posting this in threads where it would be appropriate, again, for reference in case anyone (Thorf or otherwise) should decide to update these maps.

There is some additional errata I just noticed the other night in Dawn of the Emperors Book One: DM's Sourcebook, p. 22.

The errata notes that some changes should be made to this map, notably:

1) There should also be a Gapton-Terentias-Kerendas trade route.
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Re: [Outer World] Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:16 pm

The new version is up! Check the first post in the thread for the link.

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Re: [Outer World] Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by religon » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:36 pm

This is a major improvement. Kudos.

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Re: [Outer World] Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Zendrolion » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:50 pm

Thorf wrote:The new version is up! Check the first post in the thread for the link.
A great improvement!

As a side note, Thorf, I see you placed Serendib where LoZompatore suggested years ago. I delved deeply into Minrothad history when I wrote my demography and history articles regarding the archipelago for Threshold #3; I came to consider that placing an additional large town on Alfeisle's coast was not as good as it seemed me to be back in 2005. It's not a bad location per se, it's only that it requires a not so easy explanation, given Alfeisle's history. In case you want to check, I wrote some additional suggestions regarding Serendib's placement in Threshold #3, page 160 (grey box). ;)
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Re: [Outer World] Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:46 am

Zendrolion wrote:As a side note, Thorf, I see you placed Serendib where LoZompatore suggested years ago. I delved deeply into Minrothad history when I wrote my demography and history articles regarding the archipelago for Threshold #3; I came to consider that placing an additional large town on Alfeisle's coast was not as good as it seemed me to be back in 2005. It's not a bad location per se, it's only that it requires a not so easy explanation, given Alfeisle's history. In case you want to check, I wrote some additional suggestions regarding Serendib's placement in Threshold #3, page 160 (grey box). ;)
Very interesting... I bow to your expertise on this one. But what does Michele think, I wonder?

To be honest, I do not like the placement on Alfeisle, because it spoils the dichotomy of two settlements at opposite ends of the isle for two clans of elves. If it were just a village, that would be fine, because there are likely quite a few villages there anyway, but a town, or worse a city? Hmm...

If it is to be placed in the human islands, that is also somewhat problematic. Trader's Isle is already quite full.

I'm also strongly against making it a city. A town would be fine, but I'd really rather not usurp the original designer's settlement hierarchy by adding in a major city — especially when everything else is just towns.

This brings me to wonder if I shouldn't be revising the settlement symbols in the updated maps. In order to do so, I'd have to pick a single source and stick to it. Your Demography certainly comes to mind here, Simone. :D

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Re: [Outer World] Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Sturm » Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:32 am

My 2 cents.
I'd place it on the South-Eastern shore of Trader's Island, as per one of Zendrolion's suggestions.
I don't think three cities on Trader's Island are a problem. The place is big enough (80x70 miles roughly) and has a lot of history...
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Re: [Outer World] Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Zendrolion » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:58 pm

Thorf wrote:But what does Michele think, I wonder?
Frankly I don't know, since the Italian Mystara community is no more since some years and I'm not regularly in touch with Michele anymore... Maybe we could reach him on Facebook and ask him about this issue.
Thorf wrote:To be honest, I do not like the placement on Alfeisle, because it spoils the dichotomy of two settlements at opposite ends of the isle for two clans of elves. If it were just a village, that would be fine, because there are likely quite a few villages there anyway, but a town, or worse a city? Hmm...
I also would see the new town better placed on Trader's Isle. Anyway, if Serendib is to be placed on Alfeisle, the implication is that it is a water elf town, one smaller than Seahome but which has come to flourish and prosper in the last decades or century. I'd definitely advise against placing a human town on Alfeisle, due to the fact that the elves have always kept strict control of their island and allowing a human city to grow on its shores simply does not fit with Alfeisle's history (note that the history of the island and its relations with other isles of the archipelago were not thoroughly studied by the Italian community back in 2005).
Thorf wrote:If it is to be placed in the human islands, that is also somewhat problematic. Trader's Isle is already quite full.
As Sturm said, I don't think is that problematic, apart maybe from an aesthetical point of view - the addition of a settlement and a label certainly crowd Trader's Island a little more. Placement on Trader's Island all in all seems to me a better solution: the island is already the most populous place of the Guilds, it's the main human hold of the archipelago, and this solution does not need to devise any change in Minrothad's history (at least from my own point of view, as told in the series of articles detailing Minrothad and Ierendi history in Threshold #3-6).
Thorf wrote:I'm also strongly against making it a city. A town would be fine, but I'd really rather not usurp the original designer's settlement hierarchy by adding in a major city — especially when everything else is just towns.
I don't think making it a city is a problem, either, but having Serendib as a town is fine and a good compromise. Remember that there is also the option of identifying Serendib with Harbourtown, as you might have read in Threshold #3...

After all, I see the Guilds as a sort of M-Netherlands, packed with trading towns and cities and with a high population density. Having another large town on Trader's Island IMO fits very well with this image.
Thorf wrote:This brings me to wonder if I shouldn't be revising the settlement symbols in the updated maps. In order to do so, I'd have to pick a single source and stick to it. Your Demography certainly comes to mind here, Simone. :D
Well, I don't think this is going to be a huge change - I suppose the regions most interested in symbol change would be Glantri (all those villages are actually towns) and the Isle of Dawn (Ekto and Trikelios are cities, and maybe most of the provincial areas should not have a "capital" red symbol); also, I'd change Athenos (Darokin) symbol from town to city. I don't think there are many more to change after all.
Regarding my old (2005) "Demography", the problem is that it's largely obsolete. I have rewrote part of it (Karameikos, Ierendi & Minrothad) for various issues of Threshold, and these revised parts are reliable, but the rest of the old tome and its numbers have to be deeply thought back.
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Re: [Outer World] Minrothad Guilds, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:07 am

Zendrolion wrote:
Thorf wrote:But what does Michele think, I wonder?
Frankly I don't know, since the Italian Mystara community is no more since some years and I'm not regularly in touch with Michele anymore... Maybe we could reach him on Facebook and ask him about this issue.
Sad to hear both these things. :(

I'll ping him on Facebook.
I also would see the new town better placed on Trader's Isle. Anyway, if Serendib is to be placed on Alfeisle, the implication is that it is a water elf town, one smaller than Seahome but which has come to flourish and prosper in the last decades or century. I'd definitely advise against placing a human town on Alfeisle, due to the fact that the elves have always kept strict control of their island and allowing a human city to grow on its shores simply does not fit with Alfeisle's history (note that the history of the island and its relations with other isles of the archipelago were not thoroughly studied by the Italian community back in 2005).
We're in agreement here. Let's move it to Trader's Isle.

I still think that the best solution is to make Serendib an alternate name for Harbourtown. It certainly seems to fit the description.
Thorf wrote:This brings me to wonder if I shouldn't be revising the settlement symbols in the updated maps. In order to do so, I'd have to pick a single source and stick to it. Your Demography certainly comes to mind here, Simone. :D
Well, I don't think this is going to be a huge change - I suppose the regions most interested in symbol change would be Glantri (all those villages are actually towns) and the Isle of Dawn (Ekto and Trikelios are cities, and maybe most of the provincial areas should not have a "capital" red symbol); also, I'd change Athenos (Darokin) symbol from town to city. I don't think there are many more to change after all.
Regarding my old (2005) "Demography", the problem is that it's largely obsolete. I have rewrote part of it (Karameikos, Ierendi & Minrothad) for various issues of Threshold, and these revised parts are reliable, but the rest of the old tome and its numbers have to be deeply thought back.
Ah, I wasn't aware of this situation. If you continue to write new articles for Threshold, I can source those for future updates, though. :)

Re: the Isle of Dawn, etc. — areas that were only covered in 24 or 72 miles per hex are open territory for revisions and changes as far as I'm concerned. These areas need some heavy development work anyway.

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