Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

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Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Chimpman » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:27 am

World Map 2300 BC

Map of the Outer World, non hex by John Calvin, August 2012 (Work In Progress)
Image Image Image Image Image

Comments
I've taken the World map for AC 1000 and modified it for BC 2300. In general the water levels on the planet are slightly lower than in the modern era.


Sources:

Official Maps: Outer World: World Map, non-hex

Unofficial Maps: Maps of the Known World before and after the GRoF by JTR, Mystara Brun BC3000 by Zendrolion, Lhomarr Map by Geoff Gander

Notes
  • Filled in the Dhiki Namazzi with land (per CoM)
  • I've incorporated most of the land bridges from Old Dawg's historical map of after the GRoF.
  • I've added the island continent of Lhomarr.
  • Added several other land bridges - Cestia to Davania, Bellisaria to Skothar, Northern Skothar
To Do List
  1. Continue to adjust the coastlines to reflect lower ocean levels
References
  1. Champions of Mystara (CoM)
  2. Old Lhomarr & Undersea
Thanks to: Thorfinn Tait, for providing some wonderful graphics to use in all of our mapping projects. Thanks also to Old Dawg, Zendrolion, and Geoff Gander for providing other historical maps.
Last edited by Chimpman on Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Hugin » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:02 pm

Great idea, chimpman. It's cool to see all the changes on a global scale.

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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Havard » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:20 pm

I like it! :)

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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Chimpman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:39 pm

Thanks guys. I'd like to use this thread to talk about any other changes that folks think should be made to this era.

One other change I've been contemplating is extending the Arm of the Immortals further south (and possibly bringing the Davania coastline further north) to create a feature similar to the Straight of Gibraltar. I don't want the land masses touching exactly, but possibly very close.
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Hugin » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:12 pm

Chimpman wrote:One other change I've been contemplating is extending the Arm of the Immortals further south (and possibly bringing the Davania coastline further north) to create a feature similar to the Straight of Gibraltar. I don't want the land masses touching exactly, but possibly very close.
I'm not 100% sure, but isn't the Straight between the Arm of the Immortals and Davania somewhat of a deep trench? I can't remember why I think that and I could be mistaken.

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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Chimpman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:07 pm

Hugin wrote:
Chimpman wrote:One other change I've been contemplating is extending the Arm of the Immortals further south (and possibly bringing the Davania coastline further north) to create a feature similar to the Straight of Gibraltar. I don't want the land masses touching exactly, but possibly very close.
I'm not 100% sure, but isn't the Straight between the Arm of the Immortals and Davania somewhat of a deep trench? I can't remember why I think that and I could be mistaken.
Possibly... we may have touched on this in one of our previous mapping threads. I'll go back and pull those and check for any data on ocean depth. IIRC we pulled every canon source on ocean depth (that we could find) at one point in order to make the Sea of Dread region more consistent. I want to say we didn't go any further west than the Serpent Peninsula, but I could be wrong.
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:21 pm

As long as there's enough space to put down Y'hog, I don't mind a little narrowing. Though FWIW I seem to recall somewhere that the ocean was deep there.
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Chimpman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:31 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:As long as there's enough space to put down Y'hog, I don't mind a little narrowing. Though FWIW I seem to recall somewhere that the ocean was deep there.
Do you have any maps showing Y'hog and it's placement?
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:48 pm

Unfortunately, no. What I did is use the precataclysmic world map from the HW boxed set, and postulate that the island that appeared just off the coast of the southern tip of the Arm of the Immortals was Yhegg-T'uhath - and argue that this island (or most of it, at least) would not have actually been present in BC 3000 (since it wasn't being used for any setting in the pre-GRoF world).

In the BC 2300 period, with slightly lower sea levels, the upper elevations might be above the surface. However, we could also argue that the Immortals were so pissed that when they sank the island they drove it deep underwater.
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Chimpman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:38 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:Unfortunately, no. What I did is use the precataclysmic world map from the HW boxed set, and postulate that the island that appeared just off the coast of the southern tip of the Arm of the Immortals was Yhegg-T'uhath - and argue that this island (or most of it, at least) would not have actually been present in BC 3000 (since it wasn't being used for any setting in the pre-GRoF world.
Is that the small island directly south of the Arm, and just to the west of the tip of Davania? Or is there another island?
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:04 pm

That's the one!
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Zendrolion » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:57 am

Great map, Chimp, and useful tool for migrations and the like! :cool:

I couldn't exempt from comparing your map with HW Precataclysmic Map. Now, while it's true that elemental upheavals caused by the Great Rain of Fire could have changed the face of the outer world in quite a random way, but in general I'd expect to see some consistency between lands and landbridges in AC 3000 and the same in AC 2300. I mean that I find quite unlikely (but this could just be me :x ) that a landbridges not featured in AC 3000 would show up in AC 2300 - at least, this shouldn't be the rule in my opinion.

Some examples of differences between the two maps:

- Alatian landbridges: in HW map, Aegos is connected via a landbridge to the Isle of Dawn, while Aeria isn't. In your map, we found that Aeria is connected to the Isle of Dawn and Bellissaria, while Aegos isn't anymore. I'd suggest - if any - to keep the landbridge at Aegos as in HW map, at least.

- Alphatia landbridges: in HW map, Alphatia is connencted to the Isle of Dawn only at Thothia, lacking the northernmost landbridge found in your map at Dunadale. Also, the Yannivey Chain seems already split into a number of individual islands in HW map, not connected via a landbridge to main Alphatia; it's unlikely that these islands became a large island after the GRoF, only to split again later - I mean, I'd avoid this if not absolutely necessary.

- Bellissaria landbridges: the island-continent is connected only to Esterhold in HW map (through a northern Notrion landbridge); landbridge from Spearpoint area to southern Minaea is not featured in AC 3000 map.

- Known World/Norwold/Isle of Dawn landbridges: in AC 3000 landbridges connect the Isle of Dawn to the KW through Redstone-Soderfjord area, and to Norwold through Helskir-Oceansend (more or less) area. The two islands in front of Oceansend (Walruses' and Dogs' isles) don't appear in HW map, while they do in your map: what about having them originating from the collapse/submersion of the Helskir landbridge and of part of the "old" Norwold coast in front of Oceansend?
Moreover (I suspect I may have already risen this issue in the past - if so, I apologize :oops: ) the landbridge connecting the Isle of Dawn to the KW in your map is found in the Ostland area, not in the Redstone-Soderfjord area like in the HW map. Now, I know this is due to your work on the Shimmering Lands, so it's perfectly acceptable (and this is a case of "absolute necessity" :) ).

Anyway, what do you think about these points?
Chimpman wrote: Unofficial Maps: Maps of the Known World before and after the GRoF by JTR, Mystara Brun BC3000 by Zendrolion?, Lhomarr Map by Geoff Gander
Yes, I did the second map. ;) The underlying frame (coastlines, mountains, ect.) was done by LoZompatore, I elaborated the colored parts and the labels.
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Chimpman » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:24 pm

Zendrolion wrote:Great map, Chimp, and useful tool for migrations and the like! :cool:
Thanks Zen! This is exactly the kind of discussion that I want to have, so thanks a lot for bringing up these points. Of course my first objective in detailing this map is to develop an actual playable (and hopefully) fun setting - Mystara 2300 BC. Secondly (and I try to keep this in the back of my mind at all times) is that I want to create something that is as consistent as possible with pre-existing sources (both canon and fanon). In some cases I have to make a judgement call (based entirely on my own personal preferences - since I intend that I should enjoy myself while doing this work). So take what I've done with that in mind. Having said that...
Zendrolion wrote:I couldn't exempt from comparing your map with HW Precataclysmic Map. Now, while it's true that elemental upheavals caused by the Great Rain of Fire could have changed the face of the outer world in quite a random way, but in general I'd expect to see some consistency between lands and landbridges in AC 3000 and the same in AC 2300. I mean that I find quite unlikely (but this could just be me :x ) that a landbridges not featured in AC 3000 would show up in AC 2300 - at least, this shouldn't be the rule in my opinion.
[Aside first - but I assume we are talking about BC dates and not AC dates ;)] I have to admit that I need to spend more time looking at the HW Precataclysmic Map. There are a couple of assumptions that I'm making when I work on my historical maps - and I know that some of these will disagree with assumptions that other folks make, but that's ok ;).

1) Blackmoor was located on Skothar, and not in the Know World region of Brun.
2) The GRoF caused an axial tilt.
3) The pre-GRoF northern polar opening was located in Ethengar (meaning that after the axial tilt frozen lands would have been shifted south some distance).
4) Warmer (unfrozen) lands were shifted north after the GRoF (meaning that these would probably fill up with water/ice in the following centuries).
5) The same thing is happening in the southern polar region.

The overall results of all of these things means that Mystara enters into a mini-ice age right after the GRoF. If this is the case then we might expect rapid changes in coastal lines from the pre-GRoF era to the post-GRoF era. Massive glaciers shift into warmer regions overnight, while warmer regions shift into frozen lands. IMO the ice buildup is going to happen fairly quickly in the new poles (and if we assume that the shift, fallout, and whatever other aftereffects came with the GRoF drop the overall temperature of the planet), then the pre-existing glacial lands will be slow to recede. This could cause water levels to drop - at least in the short term.

We do know that the glacial lands in Glantri and Rockhome start to recede circa BC 2500... so at this point water levels might start rising again. By BC 1700 we have some pretty massive changes perhaps caused in part by the oceans once again "filling" up.

Having said all of the above, we can probably minimize some of the differences you list below.
Zendrolion wrote:- Alatian landbridges: in HW map, Aegos is connected via a landbridge to the Isle of Dawn, while Aeria isn't. In your map, we found that Aeria is connected to the Isle of Dawn and Bellissaria, while Aegos isn't anymore. I'd suggest - if any - to keep the landbridge at Aegos as in HW map, at least.
I'll review this one - and I suspect that the change you mention shouldn't disrupt the setting at all since not much work has been done in that area as of yet.
Zendrolion wrote:- Alphatia landbridges: in HW map, Alphatia is connencted to the Isle of Dawn only at Thothia, lacking the northernmost landbridge found in your map at Dunadale. Also, the Yannivey Chain seems already split into a number of individual islands in HW map, not connected via a landbridge to main Alphatia; it's unlikely that these islands became a large island after the GRoF, only to split again later - I mean, I'd avoid this if not absolutely necessary.
Ahh... I believe that I took the northernmost bridge here from Old Dawg's pre-cataclysmic map. I'm not sure what kind of implication removing this bridge would have for the GazF work. I've also recently incorporated it into the Shimmering Lands timeline as a means for early colonization of Hurgon (aka Denwarf-Hurgon) in Alphatia. This ties in to some of the more recent work Bruce has done in his blog treatments of Alphatia. If this bridge is very close to sea level (as I suspect it is), then perhaps it could have "risen" and "sunk" in a very short period of time (possibly multiple times) as water and ice levels adjust across the planet?

The Yannivey Chain bridge (I'm pretty sure), was all me... but it's not something that I'm married to. I just wanted to create a more consistent look in relation to all of the other land bridges in the area. This is something that could be removed (or refined) without any problems though. I'll look at it again in a little more detail (making sure to take reference of the HW Map this time ;) ).
Zendrolion wrote:- Bellissaria landbridges: the island-continent is connected only to Esterhold in HW map (through a northern Notrion landbridge); landbridge from Spearpoint area to southern Minaea is not featured in AC 3000 map.
Once again, I think this comes from Old Dawg's map. With regard to BC 2300 I don't think it has a significant impact one way or the other, but I'd actually like to hear what Old Dawg's thoughts on the subject are and why he chose to create a land bridge there. You still around Old Dawg?
Zendrolion wrote:- Known World/Norwold/Isle of Dawn landbridges: in AC 3000 landbridges connect the Isle of Dawn to the KW through Redstone-Soderfjord area, and to Norwold through Helskir-Oceansend (more or less) area. The two islands in front of Oceansend (Walruses' and Dogs' isles) don't appear in HW map, while they do in your map: what about having them originating from the collapse/submersion of the Helskir landbridge and of part of the "old" Norwold coast in front of Oceansend?
This could be doable... but give me a bit more time to mull this over. I need to look at the maps in a bit more detail here (something I can't do well at the moment).
Zendrolion wrote:Moreover (I suspect I may have already risen this issue in the past - if so, I apologize :oops: ) the landbridge connecting the Isle of Dawn to the KW in your map is found in the Ostland area, not in the Redstone-Soderfjord area like in the HW map. Now, I know this is due to your work on the Shimmering Lands, so it's perfectly acceptable (and this is a case of "absolute necessity" :) ).
:oops: :oops: :oops: Ok... it must be my thick head or something, but I never really recognized this until just now. Actually as far as Shimmering Lands history goes, all I really require is a land bridge to the Isle of Dawn... whether it connects in Redstone or somewhere else is less relevant. So as far as BC 2300 history goes, I think I could make this change without much impact. As far as my maps go... well that would be more impact ;). I'm not sure I would change the Brunian connection (Ostland through to Vestland), but I might be able to change the IoD connection fairly easily. It has the added benefit of making the northern inner sea a little larger. Looking at Old Dawg's map again, it looks like this is exactly what he does ( :oops: don't know how I misread that in the first place...) . Anyway, let me think about the impact of doing something like this a bit more.
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Chimpman » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:22 pm

Ok, I've spent a little bit of time looking at the maps - I still need to look a bit more and pull some more maps together - but here is a start (and for now, I'm just going to focus on the land bridges from the Isle of Dawn to the Known World).

Image

The top left map is my original BC 2300 map, while at the top right are some possible changes that could be made to that map in order to make it more consistent with JTR's map (and possibly the HW map as well). I'm still not too sure about the HW map... One thing is that I think the coastlines on the HW map were drawn pretty fast and furiously - I'm not sure how well they would match up with a modern map (even once shifted). I suspect there is a lot of leeway with regards to the coastlines of this map.

With regards to JTR's map, I believe that the mountains shown on the land bridge must be the mountain range on Ostland, which would mean that Ostland is part of that bridge. Having said that, the mountains in that map appear to be shifted a ways south - making it appear that the bridge would connect in Soderfjord rather than Vestland. However if the bridge does in fact include Ostland (which I think makes more sense), then it also follows that it should connect in Vestland. That at least, was part of my original thinking when I developed my own maps.

Actually, with regards to the HW map, it appears that the land bridge would connect from Ylaruam to Southern Redstone, while JTR's map appears to go from Soderfjord to Northern Redstone (while still including Ostland).
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Zendrolion » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:44 pm

Chimpman wrote:Ok, I've spent a little bit of time looking at the maps - I still need to look a bit more and pull some more maps together - but here is a start (and for now, I'm just going to focus on the land bridges from the Isle of Dawn to the Known World).
Good comparison, thank you! :)
Chimpman wrote:I'm still not too sure about the HW map... One thing is that I think the coastlines on the HW map were drawn pretty fast and furiously - I'm not sure how well they would match up with a modern map (even once shifted). I suspect there is a lot of leeway with regards to the coastlines of this map.
You're quite right, of course, but fact is that it's the only canon source for precataclysmic coastlines we have... :facepalm:

What I meant with my last post was suggesting to try to preserve some consistence between precataclysmic coastlines and later ones; for example, IF you admit, for example, that IoD-KW landbridge was located in southern Redstone-Thyatis area before the GRoF, try to have not ANOTHER landbridge coming up from the sea in the northern Westrourke-Ostland area after the other sank below the waves. Otherwise, if you feel necessary to leave the landbridge at Ostland for the BC 2300 campaign setting purpose, then in the setting's history a landbridge in the Redstone area should never have existed - IMHO we shall try not to use unnecessary explanations (the so-called Ockham's razor :geek: ).
Chimpman wrote:Actually, with regards to the HW map, it appears that the land bridge would connect from Ylaruam to Southern Redstone, while JTR's map appears to go from Soderfjord to Northern Redstone (while still including Ostland).
Yes, it'd seem so. Taking into account official, 1000 AC maps, it'd quite awkward to link southern Redstone with Soderfjord, at least not without widening the landbridge to the whole (or the greater part of) Ylaruam coastline. Something like what this map shows. Perhaps one could try something less extreme, adopting a solution more similar to Mishler's one, thus preserving Mogreth's main river delta.

By the way, in the former abovelinked map you can see also how I'd treat the Helskir landbridge issue (basically, matching the pre-sinking easternmost coastline with Dogs' and Walruses' isles' eastern coastlines, then turning the coast south to Helskir).

Nevertheless, and regardless of strict canon adherence, the only true necessity I see is the preservation of at least ONE passable (i.e. mostly free of opposition) landbridge between IoD and the KW in the years around BC 2000. This is needed for ethnography purposes, that is to allow migration of Dawner's ancestors into the IoD (if at least one landbridge endures until after BC 1700, it could also be used to explain humanoids' migration on the IoD from Norwold).
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Chimpman » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:53 pm

I need to dive back into this topic. I think I'm going to end up modifying my maps to connect the land bridge from Oostland to northern Redstone. This may affect the Mogreth map as well (though I think minimally). I'll post the changes here once I'm done with them.
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Chimpman » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:01 pm

Ok... I've spent some time dwelling on this issue over the past few days and have basically come to the conclusion that I'm not going to change the land bridge through Ostland to the IoD. My main reasons for this are mostly derived from the 8mph maps of the area (Northern Reaches, Isle of Dawn). Keep in mind that these are my own personal views (YMMV). I'm not saying that they are 100% correct, or that there are no other explanations... however for the purposes of BC 2300, I think this is what I'm going with.

1) If the assumption is that receding sea levels play at least some factor in the formation of this land bridge (and that is my assumption), then visually it makes the most sense for Ostland to be a part of the bridge. In the modern era, Ostland is a fairly large island with mountainous territory. This suggests to me that it has some highly elevated land, and also that the surrounding seas could be fairly shallow.

2) The peninsula of Redstone is surrounded by cliffs. This suggests to me that there is a much more radical falloff into the sea in this area - meaning probably deeper water levels.

Now the Hollow world map does offer another possible solution - connecting Ylaruam to southern Redstone. I believe there is enough geographical evidence (again looking at the 8mph maps) to warrant this possibility. There is an island off the southern coast of Redstone, surrounded by many reefs. This suggests lower sea levels in the area.

However... If I had to choose where to place the land bridge (never having seen the HW map) I would still place it across Ostland. If I did place one from Ylaruam to southern Redstone, I would probably also place a second one across Ostland as well! It just wouldn't make sense to me otherwise (unless a reason other than sea level were given for the bridge's formation).

The HW map has other ticks against it as well. First of all it's not at an 8mph resolution. Details will degrade at lower resolutions, and my preference is to base my own maps on the highest resolution canon maps available. It also apparently does not show Ostland at all. I don't buy that Ostland has been incorporated into the eastern coast of Brun. It has just been left off the map.


Looking at JTR's map, I believe that Ostland has been included there (based on the small snipped of mountains located on his southern bridge). On this map it appears that the land bridge connects Ostland with northern Redstone (and indeed the shape of the inner sea would also seem to suggest this). I attempted several versions of this on the 8mph map, and was not satisfied with any of them. So again (IMO) that configuration doesn't make sense to me.


At this point, the only question that remains in my mind is what to do with the second land bridge (the one from northern Westrourke to Brun). I'm inclined to leave that bridge as well (creating that inner sea we see in all of the maps).

Seer, you have any thoughts on this (as any changes here would affect Mogreth pretty drastically as well)? I'm inclined to leave the BC 2300 maps as is at this point.
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:54 pm

I agree that the differences in map scales can produce a lot of distortion once you get down to an 8- or 24-mile hex scale, so let's keep the map as it is, to the greatest extent possible.
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Chimpman
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Re: Outer World: World Map 2300 BC, non hex

Post by Chimpman » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:00 pm

The BC 1700 map really decided it for me (shorelines are the same as the modern era). It's hard for me to look at this and see the land bridge anywhere other than through Ostland.
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