[Bibliography] Overview and Discussion

[Thorf]

Bibliographies

Currently I have the bibliography for the Atlas split into four sections:

• Bibliography I: Official Maps
  
  1. Rules Sets
  2. Accessories
  3. Campaign Sources
  4. Adventure Modules
  5. Blackmoor
  6. Hollow World
  7. Entry-Level (including Thunder Rift)
  8. AD&D Mystara
  9. AD&D Red Steel and Savage Coast
  10. Dragon
  11. Dungeon
  12. Novels
• Bibliography II: Unofficial Maps
• Bibliography III: Official Sources
• Bibliography IV: Unofficial Sources

These lists of sources and maps are rather useful for reference on the boards, so I intend to work on them as threads in this forum. Within each bibliography thread, I will create separate posts for each "entry" or set of entries. This allows us to create direct links to each source, so we can post references in other threads very easily. However, since they are purely for reference purposes, I would like to keep all comments and discussion out of those threads. So, if you have any comments, corrections, suggestions, etc., please post them in this thread.

I have already begun posting Bibliography I: Official Maps. The idea is to provide a list of maps arranged by the sources they appear in, with my replica maps serving as graphical illustrations as well as replicas of the actual maps. For this reason, I have increased the size of the thumbnails to 200 pixels square.

Please let me know if you have any ideas for how to improve the style, or if you think I should add more information to each entry.

[Thorf]

Bibliography I: Official Maps

This bibliography lists all the official maps that were published for Mystara. For unofficial maps, see Bibliography II. For sources other than maps, see Bibliography III Official Sources and Bibliography IV Unofficial Sources.

[JoeNotCharles]

http://mystara.thorf.co.uk/replica/_06_ ... rld-24.png (and the original colours variant) are giving me 404's.

[Thorf]

Thanks for the heads up! It took me a moment to work out where the links in question were. Anyway I have moved your post here, and I fixed the links in the Bibliography thread. (I forgot to change the scale in the URL from 6 to 24 miles per hex...)

[OldDawg]

Corrections to Bibliography I, Rules Set: Revisions are counted by the variant of the associated basic set, starting with Holmes, not White Box 0D&D.

• 1981 Basic and Expert are Revision 2
• BECMI is Revision 3
• 1991 Entry Long Box, RC, and 1994-6"Classic D&D Game" are Revision 4
• [1999 "Dungeons & Dragons Adventure Game" should be noted as Revision5 or as an alternative game system, but it is not Mystara-specific, nor is "Classic"]

Also:

• Expert (Rev3) has a map of the Threshold region.
• RC has a variant map of the KW and SoD (pp270-271), cropped maps of Glantri (273), cropped map of Darokin and Alfheim (274-275), Rockhome (276), Shires (277), Karameikos (278-279), The World of Mystara (280-281), The Hollow World (282-283), Thyatis (284-285), Ylaruam (286-287), Reaches (288)

Question: For the purposes of this effort, do you consider WOTI a Rules Set?

Question 2: For the purposes of this effort, should any mention of floor-plan maps be made? [Affects BECMI Basic, and possibly others]

[Thorf]

First of all, thanks for taking the time to help me with this list.

Corrections to Bibliography I, Rules Set: Revisions are counted by the variant of the associated basic set, starting with Holmes, not White Box 0D&D.

• 1981 Basic and Expert are Revision 2
• BECMI is Revision 3
• 1991 Entry Long Box, RC, and 1994-6"Classic D&D Game" are Revision 4
• [1999 "Dungeons & Dragons Adventure Game" should be noted as Revision5 or as an alternative game system, but it is not Mystara-specific, nor is "Classic"]

This is a controversial area, so I've been expecting to be challenged on it. Frank Mentzer's note at the very beginning of the 1983 Expert Set mentions "three earlier versions". For years I've been referring to these as "editions", but it occurred to me while making this thread that referring to "Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1 (4th Edition)" could be very confusing now that (A)D&D 4th Edition has been released. So I changed the terminology to "revision", but it seems I forgot to reduce my numbers by one (since the second edition would presumably be the first revision).

I'm not thrilled by this change in numbering. Perhaps there's another word for edition that could allow me to keep the numbering. Frank Mentzer used "version", which is certainly usable. I'll have to think about it, but the end result is that I want to keep referring to "BECMI" with the number 4.

Regarding the Classic D&D Game - I don't have it (not even in PDF), so I really don't know anything about it. Is it just another version of the entry level box from 1991? You mentioned that it's not Mystara-specific, but what maps (including hex maps, dungeon maps, and/or legends), settings and adventures does it have (if any)? If it has nothing of interest, I may just delete it from the list.

I don't intend to add the 1999 one to this list. The time period it was produced in makes it irrelevant to Mystara. The only thing that might make me want to add it is if it has cartographically interesting stuff in it, but again since I don't have it, it's a moot point. (If you have it, please let me know if you think I can use it as a source for the Atlas.)

Also:

• Expert (Rev3) has a map of the Threshold region.
• RC has a variant map of the KW and SoD (pp270-271), cropped maps of Glantri (273), cropped map of Darokin and Alfheim (274-275), Rockhome (276), Shires (277), Karameikos (278-279), The World of Mystara (280-281), The Hollow World (282-283), Thyatis (284-285), Ylaruam (286-287), Reaches (288)

Thanks, I forgot the Threshold map and the world maps. But the others were already mentioned. In any case, they will just be placeholding captions until I've actually produced the replicas.

Question: For the purposes of this effort, do you consider WOTI a Rules Set?

I tend to think of it more as a campaign source than a rules set, though I agree it is both. Given that the name Wrath of the Immortals is synonymous with the campaign events presented in it, I think most people would look for it in the campaign sources section.

Question 2: For the purposes of this effort, should any mention of floor-plan maps be made? [Affects BECMI Basic, and possibly others]

If you mean dungeon maps, the answer is a definite "maybe". Seriously, I have always intended to include town and city maps in the Atlas (eventually...), and I want to keep open the possibility of including dungeon maps too. I may make a study of dungeon map art at the same time. These points should explain to you the presence of quite a few things that otherwise provide little or no information that fits the scope of the Atlas.

There are a number of points where I'm still not entirely sure how I'm going to do things, so at this point I just want to keep all options open.

Also, there are quite a few things that I just don't have a copy of (anything before 1981 for a start...), which means that I don't even have the option of including them at this point - although I'm pretty sure I don't need to anyway, at least as far as maps go. If there are things that I may want to include, please don't hesitate to let me know.

One of the main points of posting this bibliography is to let myself as well as everyone else know how much I have left to do of my replica maps, while also allowing me to link to the original sources from each map thread in the other sub-forum here.

Thanks again for the help!

[OldDawg]

This is a controversial area, so I've been expecting to be challenged on it. Frank Mentzer's note at the very beginning of the 1983 Expert Set mentions "three earlier versions".
...

I don't have the Expert Set on me at the moment, but if he said "three earlier versions" Frank could have meant: 1) the 1983 Expert was the 4th Printing of the Expert Set (1-3 under B/X), or 2) the earlier versions were rule systems; i.e. OD&D White Box, Holmes B, and MCM B/X.

I'll have to think about it, but the end result is that I want to keep referring to "BECMI" with the number 4.

Well "Revision" is - if not universally used - a useful clarification introduced by the Acaeum to distinguish these system variations of Classic in lieu of printings (an entirely different thing). They begin numbering Holmes as Revision 1; Frank's Basic (and thus BECMI) is Revision 3, and so on. So, for the sake of pan-community communication I would prefer to see this convention maintained.

Regarding the Classic D&D Game - I don't have it (not even in PDF), so I really don't know anything about it. Is it just another version of the entry level box from 1991?

"Classic" gave our preferred game system its pan-community name. Basically it compressed the Long Box into a normal sized Box (thus Entry, or levels 1-5). I don't know if the Adventure information was any different, but it was similarly generic like its predecessor.

If it has nothing of interest, I may just delete it from the list.

Actually, I would keep it (and other no-map products) listed just like you have, with a note that no maps are present. Otherwise, you get the perpetual "hey why didn't you mention X".

(If you have [the 1999 version] , please let me know if you think I can use it as a source for the Atlas.)

I remember when this era came out. I wasn't gaming anymore, but ocassionally browsed the D&D section. Hated the coverart. I think it was completely generic, and the system itself is not recognizably Classic.

Also, there are quite a few things that I just don't have a copy of (anything before 1981 for a start...), which means that I don't even have the option of including them at this point -

Don't let that keep something out of the list. Just note that the item is currently unavailable for reference in producing replicas. [Although, like you, I doubt they have any maps worth speaking of.] The biggest grail quest I can think of are a pair of 3rd-Party adventures under 0D&D. Like JG Blackmoor, they aren't officially Mystara, but some people around here feel they are "inherited heirlooms," for lack of better phrase.

[JoeNotCharles]

For things like WotI that could be considered both rules sets and campaign sources, perhaps you should put them in one section and add a "see also" link to the other one.

[Thorf]

I don't have the Expert Set on me at the moment, but if he said "three earlier versions" Frank could have meant: 1) the 1983 Expert was the 4th Printing of the Expert Set (1-3 under B/X), or 2) the earlier versions were rule systems; i.e. OD&D White Box, Holmes B, and MCM B/X.

Perhaps I should have quoted the next part too, because he explicitly talks about the last three sets (your option 2).

Well "Revision" is - if not universally used - a useful clarification introduced by the Acaeum to distinguish these system variations of Classic in lieu of printings (an entirely different thing). They begin numbering Holmes as Revision 1; Frank's Basic (and thus BECMI) is Revision 3, and so on. So, for the sake of pan-community communication I would prefer to see this convention maintained.

As I said, I'll have to think about it. In any case, it's not a big issue for this Bibliography - especially since I have thumbnails of each book's cover to help identify the source at a glance. It will be relevant for the database, though.

"Classic" gave our preferred game system its pan-community name. Basically it compressed the Long Box into a normal sized Box (thus Entry, or levels 1-5). I don't know if the Adventure information was any different, but it was similarly generic like its predecessor.

Hehe. I don't think we started calling it classic because of this set. Seriously, this set doesn't seem to be very well known. Anyway, thanks for the information on it.

If it has nothing of interest, I may just delete it from the list.

Actually, I would keep it (and other no-map products) listed just like you have, with a note that no maps are present. Otherwise, you get the perpetual "hey why didn't you mention X".

Yes, that's true. Plus it makes me feel better to have the list more complete. But I don't want to needlessly extend the list too far either, so it's likely to remain an incomplete D&D product list.

(If you have [the 1999 version] , please let me know if you think I can use it as a source for the Atlas.)

I remember when this era came out. I wasn't gaming anymore, but ocassionally browsed the D&D section. Hated the coverart. I think it was completely generic, and the system itself is not recognizably Classic.

Okay, so I can safely ignore it, then.

Also, there are quite a few things that I just don't have a copy of (anything before 1981 for a start...), which means that I don't even have the option of including them at this point -

Don't let that keep something out of the list. Just note that the item is currently unavailable for reference in producing replicas. [Although, like you, I doubt they have any maps worth speaking of.] The biggest grail quest I can think of are a pair of 3rd-Party adventures under 0D&D. Like JG Blackmoor, they aren't officially Mystara, but some people around here feel they are "inherited heirlooms," for lack of better phrase.

You have a point... It's easier to have things in the list from the start, even as just a placeholder, than to add them in later.

But for the pre-1981 stuff, if I do add it in, it's likely to be in a separate section to keep it from getting in the way of the important sources.

By the way sorry about the confusion with the other thread. I just assumed that anyone reading it would probably have noticed I'd been posting these bibliography threads and realise the connection. Anyway the conversation is not wasted, because it's all relevant somewhere.

For things like WotI that could be considered both rules sets and campaign sources, perhaps you should put them in one section and add a "see also" link to the other one.

Good idea! I've already started this with the X1 references in the Rules Sets thread, which will become links when I have posted the Adventures listing.

[Thorf]

Update: I have now posted threads for all of the main categories in the Bibliography except for Dragon, Dungeon, and Novels. I'm going to hold off on posting the individual product details for a time in case anyone has any comments or criticisms about the way I've ordered things.

You can see the threads in this sub-forum, or use the links in the first post in this thread. Please let me know what you think about the way I've ordered things.

[Thorf]

Update: I just finished posting the Campaign Sources thread. It should have most of the maps I've finished so far, as well as placeholder titles showing maps I have yet to make. It seems I have quite a way to go yet!

Please let me know in this thread if you notice I have missed something. Just to clarify, currently the lists are supposed to include all overland and hex maps, but town and dungeon maps are excluded. For now, at least.

[Hugin]

Just letting you know I'm really liking these bibliography threads. Nicely done.

[Thorf]

Just letting you know I'm really liking these bibliography threads. Nicely done.

Thanks. I hope they're going to be really useful to link to for reference in the mapping threads. And they're also a nice excuse to use bigger thumbnails. (The 200 pixel thumbnails look so nice in fact that I've been considering phasing them in for the mapping threads. It's probably best to stick with the 100 pixel versions and save space, though...)