[ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

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[ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

Post by Havard » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:53 pm

http://mmrpg.zeitgeistgames.com/index.p ... opic&t=225
Havard:
Over at the Mystara Mailinglist, someone asked me about the deities of Blackmoor and which Mystaran immortals these might correspond to for those trying to combine the settings.

The Immortals in Question are the following:
Zugzul - given
Thanatos - given
Ordana - given
Protius - Patron of the Sea and Sea Races.
Faunus - given
Terra - Patroness of Earth
Ka - Preservation of old cultures, lizardfolk. Good immortal.
Korotiku - Trickster, Spider
Hel - My guess is Hela
Calitha - Patroness of Sea-going elves.
Kagyar -Patron of Brute Men (Cavemen) and Smithing/Crafts. Later of Dwarves.
Valerias - Love (Chaotic)
Verthandi - Time, Precognition
Ixion - Sollus is my guess for this one.


Any thought for who of Blackmoor's pantheon may be considered counterparts for these?

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Re: [ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:41 pm

Calitha Starbrow = No parallel in the Blackmoor elvish pantheon. The best solution would be either to simply add her to the pantheon as a goddess sponsored by Ordana and opposed to Hydros, or to assume the elves of Blackmoor don't worship her, though she may be worshiped elsewhere in the world at the time.

Garal Glitterlode = Both Garal and the gnomish race are older than popularly believed in the present day, and Garal was already an Immortal in 4000 BC, albeit a very young one. At that time, he was known as Mieroc, and popularly believed to have been sponsored to Immortality by Charis/Terra, rather than by Kagyar, as the story has it in later times when Terra has little to do with either dwarves or gnomes.

Hel = Definitely Hela.

Ixion = Pacuun (he even has Ixion's flaming sword and hatred of Entropy) and Sollus (who else could Sollus be?). It may be a bit odd for the same Immortal to have two aspects worshiped in the same culture, but somehow it worked out that way. Perhaps originally he was known as Sollus to the Blackmoorians and Pacuun elsewhere, but eventually the folk of Blackmoor adapted Pacuun to their pantheon as well.

Ka the Protector = Fronaus. Note his golden armor and his emphasis on protection. He might even be the Peshwah god Raelralataen as well, with his golden sickle.

Kagyar the Artisan = Kadis to the humans. Known as Ferros to the elves and Hemgrid to the dwarves. As Hemgrid, he was the chief patron of the dwarves until Dhumnon took that position from him. After the Rain of Fire, when most of the old dwarf gods are forgotten, Kagyar/Hemgrid takes his old position as the chief patron of the dwarven race back.

Protius = Hydros to the elves, Mwajin (whose name is similar enough to Manwara) to the humans of the North.

Korotiku = Hersh.

Terra = The elven goddess Terra. Known as Charis to the gnomes. Her mysterious sponsor may actually be Koorzun.

Valerias = Phellia. Goddess of love, lover of Ixion/Pacuun.

Verthandi = Dealth to the elves (her portfolio of travel and magic can be read as including time travel; basically, all we know about Verthandi from Wrath of the Immortals is that he created many time-traveling artifacts). Pathmeer of the dwarves may be the same as Skuld. Dealth could also conceivably be Tyche.

Wayland = Kela the Wanderer.

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Re: [ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

Post by Havard » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:59 pm

Excellent work ripvanwormer!

I really like the idea of having entities from different Blackmoor Pantheons correspond to the same Immortal. I wonder if more of the Elven and Dwarven Deities correspond to oneanother.

A similar discussion resulted in this article: http://www.pandius.com/bi_zggd.html

I have changed my opinion on a few of those however. For instance for the Dragon Deities, I would like the following:

Insellageth (NG) - First Diamond Dragon -NG (aka Bahamut)
Chamber (NE) - First Pearl Dragon CE (I'd like to make him Tiamat, but that seems wrong)
Tsartha (N) - First Opal Dragon - N

For the original Great Dragon, I would steal the backstory of Io, with a big difference that a new Great Dragon would rise after the GRoF... Possibly Insellageth is the one who becomes the Great One who later sponsors Thelvyn etc...

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Re: [ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

Post by ripvanwormer » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:32 am

Havard wrote: I have changed my opinion on a few of those however. For instance for the Dragon Deities, I would like the following:

Insellageth (NG) - First Diamond Dragon -NG (aka Bahamut)
Chamber (NE) - First Pearl Dragon CE (I'd like to make him Tiamat, but that seems wrong)
Tsartha (N) - First Opal Dragon - N
Yeah, those choices seem most appropriate to me. Perhaps Bahamut and Tiamat were still earlier, or later versions of Diamond and Pearl, though; from the article in Dragon #158, I kind of think there have been draconic Immortals since the time of the draedens, their positions set in place by the Old Ones before the arrival of any other Immortal beings. So there may be many, many different dragons in those positions. Bahamut, Tiamat, Lendys, Tamara, Falazure, Garyx, and many others might have held those positions in various eras. Insellageth might not be the "first" Diamond Dragon, though the people and dragons of Blackmoor in that era might believe he was.
For the original Great Dragon, I would steal the backstory of Io, with a big difference that a new Great Dragon would rise after the GRoF... Possibly Insellageth is the one who becomes the Great One who later sponsors Thelvyn etc...
Which backstory of Io is that? In 2nd edition, Io was sometimes portrayed as a dragon with nine heads corresponding to the nine alignments, similar to how the Great One is portrayed as having three heads corresponding to OD&D's three alignments. In 2nd and 3rd edition, Io is a fairly distant creator of the other dragon gods. In 4th edition, Io is dead, having split in half during a battle with a primordial, one half becoming Bahamut and the other half becoming Tiamat.

If you go by the 2nd/3rd edition backstory, Io exists somewhere in the cosmos, though he might not have anything to do with Blackmoor, and the races of that mortal land might not be aware he exists. If you go by the 4th edition backstory, Io might be dead during the Blackmoor era, although perhaps, as you suggest, Insellageth ultimately rises to take his place in the heavens.

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Re: [ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

Post by Havard » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:00 am

ripvanwormer wrote:Yeah, those choices seem most appropriate to me. Perhaps Bahamut and Tiamat were still earlier, or later versions of Diamond and Pearl, though; from the article in Dragon #158, I kind of think there have been draconic Immortals since the time of the draedens, their positions set in place by the Old Ones before the arrival of any other Immortal beings. So there may be many, many different dragons in those positions. Bahamut, Tiamat, Lendys, Tamara, Falazure, Garyx, and many others might have held those positions in various eras. Insellageth might not be the "first" Diamond Dragon, though the people and dragons of Blackmoor in that era might believe he was.
Good point! We could have several generations of Dragon Rulers this way. The ones described in WotI are the ones from the AC1000 era. The Blackmoor Era will have its own set of Rulers, and ages between those or before Blackmoor might very well have their own Rulers. This will allow us to use a wide range of Draconic entities. Note that death might not be the only reason why a Dragon Immortal is no longer part of the hierarchy. Some such entities might have left or been excluded and might still be around...
For the original Great Dragon, I would steal the backstory of Io, with a big difference that a new Great Dragon would rise after the GRoF... Possibly Insellageth is the one who becomes the Great One who later sponsors Thelvyn etc...
Which backstory of Io is that? In 2nd edition, Io was sometimes portrayed as a dragon with nine heads corresponding to the nine alignments, similar to how the Great One is portrayed as having three heads corresponding to OD&D's three alignments. In 2nd and 3rd edition, Io is a fairly distant creator of the other dragon gods. In 4th edition, Io is dead, having split in half during a battle with a primordial, one half becoming Bahamut and the other half becoming Tiamat.

If you go by the 2nd/3rd edition backstory, Io exists somewhere in the cosmos, though he might not have anything to do with Blackmoor, and the races of that mortal land might not be aware he exists. If you go by the 4th edition backstory, Io might be dead during the Blackmoor era, although perhaps, as you suggest, Insellageth ultimately rises to take his place in the heavens.
I was thinking about the 4E one, but actually in the Blackmoor Era he might as well be alive. His death might occur some time into the future, allowing Insellageth to ascend to his position later on. WotI gives the impression that the Great One did not know about previous Great Ones before his own ascendancy though, so if Io is still alive, he will be far away from Mystara at this time..

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Re: [ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

Post by ripvanwormer » Sat May 28, 2011 1:48 am

What do you think of the idea that the Peshwah god Calelrin is the same being as the Ethengar Immortal Cretia?

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Re: [ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

Post by Havard » Sat May 28, 2011 11:19 am

ripvanwormer wrote:What do you think of the idea that the Peshwah god Calelrin is the same being as the Ethengar Immortal Cretia?
It is something I have been thinking about as well. It depends on how you see Cretia. For some reason I imagined Cretia as more of a trickster type, while Calelrin is one who kills his brother and is condemned to live with the demons. OTOH, there are many nice parallells between the two. Perhaps the differences have more to do with the perspectives of the Ethengars and the Peshwah than the Gods themselves? The Ethengars are a more cruel people and may have more tolerance for such actions?

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Re: [ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun May 29, 2011 12:22 am

Or maybe it just means Cretia/Calelrin is a more complex figure than he seemed during the Blackmoor era. Killing his brother is bad, but if it happened 5,000 years ago he's had plenty of time to mellow out since then. Perhaps the Great Rain of Fire inspires a change of heart, causing so much destruction that things weren't fun anymore, forcing him to protect the Ethengars if only so that they would still be around for him to torment later. He's changed before: originally Calelrin was "intelligent and whimsical," becoming bitter only after the creation of the mortal races.

Really, though, Cretia isn't much better, and I can see him murdering his brother just for the fun of it, not even needing the excuse of jealousy and bitterness that Calelrin has. Cretia seems to me to be much like Loki, sometimes playing harmless tricks and other times allowing his pranks to turn malevolent and deadly. According to GAZ12 he "takes delight in seeing you suffer." "He poisons your animals so they die." He's not only the Mischief Maker but also the Great Destroyer, the lord of death in the Ethengar culture just as Yamuga is lady of life. "Some of the rabid chaotics who follow the Immortal sometimes go too far, dreaming up pranks that result in real hurt and suffering." Clerics of Cretia are banned for players to play because they're "rabid chaotics with strong anti-social tendencies." That is, they're evil sociopaths (evil characters typically being the only kind to be outright banned in D&D). The Ethengar people revere him because he's an important part of the world: things need to die just like they need to be reborn. They need Cretia's chaos just as much as they need Tubak's order. I don't know if the Ethengars tolerate Cretia so much as they accept that he must be, in the same way that they accept that plagues and famines are things that happen without approving of them. Cretia can be legitimately fun, and his holiday is a day of merriment for those who don't take it too seriously. But he's dangerous, too, and he can be deadly.

But the Peshwah "fear and hate" Calelrin, while the Ethengars celebrate Cretia even as they fear and hate the things he does to them. So you may be right that the Ethengars are a crueler people. I think I'd just call them a more fatalistic people, who have a different view of the role of suffering in the world. To the Peshwah, suffering was something wrong in the universe, a deliberately engineered flaw that could potentially be fixed. To the Ethengars, suffering is integral to existence, and if you can't stop it, why not celebrate it?

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Re: [ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

Post by Havard » Tue May 31, 2011 3:48 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Or maybe it just means Cretia/Calelrin is a more complex figure than he seemed during the Blackmoor era. Killing his brother is bad, but if it happened 5,000 years ago he's had plenty of time to mellow out since then. Perhaps the Great Rain of Fire inspires a change of heart, causing so much destruction that things weren't fun anymore, forcing him to protect the Ethengars if only so that they would still be around for him to torment later. He's changed before: originally Calelrin was "intelligent and whimsical," becoming bitter only after the creation of the mortal races.
I like the idea of getting a more complex view of this entity. There is no reason why we should keep him as a stereotypical one dimensional badguy.
Really, though, Cretia isn't much better, and I can see him murdering his brother just for the fun of it, not even needing the excuse of jealousy and bitterness that Calelrin has. Cretia seems to me to be much like Loki, sometimes playing harmless tricks and other times allowing his pranks to turn malevolent and deadly. According to GAZ12 he "takes delight in seeing you suffer." "He poisons your animals so they die." He's not only the Mischief Maker but also the Great Destroyer, the lord of death in the Ethengar culture just as Yamuga is lady of life. "Some of the rabid chaotics who follow the Immortal sometimes go too far, dreaming up pranks that result in real hurt and suffering." Clerics of Cretia are banned for players to play because they're "rabid chaotics with strong anti-social tendencies." That is, they're evil sociopaths (evil characters typically being the only kind to be outright banned in D&D). The Ethengar people revere him because he's an important part of the world: things need to die just like they need to be reborn. They need Cretia's chaos just as much as they need Tubak's order. I don't know if the Ethengars tolerate Cretia so much as they accept that he must be, in the same way that they accept that plagues and famines are things that happen without approving of them. Cretia can be legitimately fun, and his holiday is a day of merriment for those who don't take it too seriously. But he's dangerous, too, and he can be deadly.
I like this description. Calelrin also seems similar to Loki really, perhaps a mix of Loki and Cain.

But the Peshwah "fear and hate" Calelrin, while the Ethengars celebrate Cretia even as they fear and hate the things he does to them. So you may be right that the Ethengars are a crueler people. I think I'd just call them a more fatalistic people, who have a different view of the role of suffering in the world. To the Peshwah, suffering was something wrong in the universe, a deliberately engineered flaw that could potentially be fixed. To the Ethengars, suffering is integral to existence, and if you can't stop it, why not celebrate it?
This is a good analysis of these two horseman cultures and their differences. It might be unfair to call the Ethengars cruel, but they lead a harsh life which sometimes forces them to make tough decisions.

Looking at the list of available Immortals, do we have any that are still not covered?

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Re: [ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

Post by ripvanwormer » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:35 am

As excellent as it is, I wouldn't consider Marco's list to be set in stone. There are so many Immortals whose histories are only vaguely described in canon. So while Marco had Forsetta ascending in the 13th century BC, he could easily be much older, and be the same entity that the Thonians called Fornaus. Marco had Calerin ascending shortly after the Great Rain of Fire, but Wrath of the Immortals is vague enough that he could be millennia older as well, if you assume the Ethengars were around then (GAZ12 said they existed on the fringes of the Blackmoor civilization, but doesn't say how far back. They could have been contemporaries of, or related to, or identical to the Peshwah). Still, Marco's list is a great start.

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Re: [ZGG Repost] Immortals and Blackmoor Deities

Post by Havard » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:38 am

ripvanwormer wrote:As excellent as it is, I wouldn't consider Marco's list to be set in stone. There are so many Immortals whose histories are only vaguely described in canon.
I agree with this. As you say, the Codex is a starting point, but not something we cannot fiddle with if it suits our needs.
So while Marco had Forsetta ascending in the 13th century BC, he could easily be much older, and be the same entity that the Thonians called Fornaus.
A possibility, but I like your previous idea of Fornaus being an identity for Ka, who I also make into Bahamut. :cool:

Marco had Calerin ascending shortly after the Great Rain of Fire, but Wrath of the Immortals is vague enough that he could be millennia older as well, if you assume the Ethengars were around then (GAZ12 said they existed on the fringes of the Blackmoor civilization, but doesn't say how far back. They could have been contemporaries of, or related to, or identical to the Peshwah). Still, Marco's list is a great start.
Yep. Especially the ones where Marco has them ascend during the Blackmoor Era or right after the GRoF, I consider up for grabs, unless there is something about their ascencion that is linked to the GRoF or similar cases.

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