Fallen Star

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Fallen Star

Post by Havard » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:45 pm

As mentioned in the Deity thread, the D20 Blackmoor Sourcebook Softcover includes a new class, the Monks of the Fallen Star, which was not seen in the Hardcover and also does not appear in the 4E Sourcebook. The D20 Sourcebooks also provide various hints about the belief of a fallen (dead) God being linked to the creation of the Valley of Ancients which now divide the Plains of Hak. The Leron Clan of the Peshwa witnessed this starfall and protect the valley. The entry on Ash Goblins also link Starfall to the Valley of the Ancients.

Ofcourse, the City of the Gods (D20 version an DA3) reveal that the fallen star is indeed the spaceship, the FSS Beagle makes the whole situation around the fallen god a bit puzzling. Did the fallen god fall somewhere else? The Monks of the Fallen Star believe that humans should return to the Stars. How would they react to the discovery of a Star craft?

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Re: Fallen Star

Post by Big Mac » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:06 pm

Havard wrote:As mentioned in the Deity thread, the D20 Blackmoor Sourcebook Softcover includes a new class, the Monks of the Fallen Star, which was not seen in the Hardcover and also does not appear in the 4E Sourcebook. The D20 Sourcebooks also provide various hints about the belief of a fallen (dead) God being linked to the creation of the Valley of Ancients which now divide the Plains of Hak. The Leron Clan of the Peshwa witnessed this starfall and protect the valley. The entry on Ash Goblins also link Starfall to the Valley of the Ancients.
Nice catch with the Ash Goblins. I missed that one. Have you got a page number for that?
Havard wrote:Ofcourse, the City of the Gods (D20 version an DA3) reveal that the fallen star is indeed the spaceship, the FSS Beagle makes the whole situation around the fallen god a bit puzzling. Did the fallen god fall somewhere else? The Monks of the Fallen Star believe that humans should return to the Stars. How would they react to the discovery of a Star craft?
I'm convinced that the Monks of the Clan of the Fallen Star are would-be spacefarers (even though they clearly would not know what the word meant). Or that they would have no culture shock if told that people live in space. I think they would jump at the chance to repair the star craft and make it fly back into space where it belongs.

EDIT: Typo fix ("just" should be "jump").

The question would be:

Would the Clan of the Fallen Star modifiy their belief to see the star craft as the same thing as "The One" or would they modify their belief to see "The One" as the captain or a passenger within the star craft?
Last edited by Big Mac on Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fallen Star

Post by Big Mac » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:22 pm

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Re: Fallen Star

Post by Havard » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:34 pm

Sorry for the late reply Mac :)
Big Mac wrote:Nice catch with the Ash Goblins. I missed that one. Have you got a page number for that?
They are on page 194 of the Softcover.
I'm convinced that the Monks of the Clan of the Fallen Star are would-be spacefarers (even though they clearly would not know what the word meant). Or that they would have no culture shock if told that people live in space. I think they would just at the chance to repair the star craft and make it fly back into space where it belongs.
Sounds reasonable. I think repairing the FSS Beagle is out of the question. If the ships own crew is unable to repair it, then the aid of Monks is not going to help much, at least not in the foreseeable future. OTOH, they might be able to replicate the technology to create smaller vessels or turn to magic and create Spelljamming ships...

The question would be:

Would the Clan of the Fallen Star modifiy their belief to see the star craft as the same thing as "The One" or would they modify their belief to see "The One" as the captain or a passenger within the star craft?
That is an interesting question, in particular because crew members of said star craft are out there with different agendas. Head of Security, Stephen Rocklin is posing as St. Stephen, the leader of the Cult of the Frog and has no qualms using religion to manipulate "lesser beings" to further his own goals. Captain Bork Riesling might have different principles than Stephen, but he might not be above trickery either should the Monks make it to the Valley. Or perhaps they are already secretly being manipulated by Riesling or Stephen?

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Re: Fallen Star

Post by Big Mac » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:47 pm

Havard wrote:Sorry for the late reply Mac :)
No problem. I sometimes miss a reply in a particular thread for ages. Lets not start apologising for it or I'll be doing it all the time! :shock:
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Nice catch with the Ash Goblins. I missed that one. Have you got a page number for that?
They are on page 194 of the Softcover.
Nuts. That is literally the monster entry for them! I thought you meant something else. Doh! :oops:

It does make you wonder that one tribe of goblins see the ship and get (radioactively) mutated, while a clan of monks see the same thing and don't seem to change in appearance.
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I'm convinced that the Monks of the Clan of the Fallen Star are would-be spacefarers (even though they clearly would not know what the word meant). Or that they would have no culture shock if told that people live in space. I think they would just at the chance to repair the star craft and make it fly back into space where it belongs.
Sounds reasonable. I think repairing the FSS Beagle is out of the question. If the ships own crew is unable to repair it, then the aid of Monks is not going to help much, at least not in the foreseeable future. OTOH, they might be able to replicate the technology to create smaller vessels or turn to magic and create Spelljamming ships...
Interesting. There are a number of things going on here then.

I have to wonder if the FSS Beagle is even something I would class as a Spelljamming ship. It sounds to be more a "Techjamming ship".

I have got a feeling (from a metagaming point of view) that a designer/GM can achive the same thing via technolgy (tech), arcane study (magic), divine worship (magic), mental concentration (psionics) or perhaps a combination of two or more of these things.

The AD&D Adventures in Space boxed set gives us (via Dragonlance) a wonky sort of tech, that is prone to go wrong. But (while I think that technology should still be prone to some level of malfunction) I suppose there is no reason why D&D could not be given tech at the same level as the highest level of magic. (This kind of ties in with your comments on Blackmoor as a d20 Modern setting.)

I'm not usually a fan of tech in D&D, but that seems to be as it is something that is either tacked onto a fantasy world or used as something that is going to replace a fading magic. (I've seen people with similar opinions about tacked on psionics.) Having said that, I'm actually surprised that I"m getting a good feeling about the technolgy in Blackmoor.

In Blackmoor things seem to be the other way around with magic being the replacement for technology. I suppose that if you can study hard and become a spellcaster, that might seem better than studying hard and becoming a mechanic. So it might be that the "Newton"s, "Einstien"s and "Hawkins"s of Blackmoor would be replaced by "Gandalf"s.

The question would then become, magic or no magic, could the Clan of the Fallen Star study a broken space ship, extract the knowledge of how it works and then use that knowledge to create magical devices that do the same thing as the different parts of the ship.

I can imagine people (especially if they are assisted by the FSS Beagle crew) being able to build the hull of a spaceship, add in decks or even add in something like steering fins. But some of the parts of a ship must be a lot harder to replicate. I don't think it would be an impossible task, but there must be some things that work so differently with magic that replacing one physical component would take three magic items, while replacing another ten physical components could be handled by a single magic item.
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:The question would be:

Would the Clan of the Fallen Star modifiy their belief to see the star craft as the same thing as "The One" or would they modify their belief to see "The One" as the captain or a passenger within the star craft?
That is an interesting question, in particular because crew members of said star craft are out there with different agendas. Head of Security, Stephen Rocklin is posing as St. Stephen, the leader of the Cult of the Frog and has no qualms using religion to manipulate "lesser beings" to further his own goals. Captain Bork Riesling might have different principles than Stephen, but he might not be above trickery either should the Monks make it to the Valley. Or perhaps they are already secretly being manipulated by Riesling or Stephen?
Hmm. I'm wondering if Dave Arneson watched Star Trek and wanted to use Stephen Rocklin to play with the Prime Directive plot device that Trek uses to stop the Federation from being an Empire.

Then again, the Cult of the Frog seem like a great way to use evangelism as a plot device.

I think that trying to get one over on the monks could be a very dangerous thing. It might just work, but if they rumbled something it could be deadly.

Then again, the monks might be so keen to believe something, that they invent their own reasons to follow St. Stephen.
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Re: Fallen Star

Post by Havard » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:08 am

Big Mac wrote:It does make you wonder that one tribe of goblins see the ship and get (radioactively) mutated, while a clan of monks see the same thing and don't seem to change in appearance.
Good question! I posted a theory about that here: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3033

Of course, it could also be just a case of the Goblins being closer in proximity to the crash site than the monks...

I have to wonder if the FSS Beagle is even something I would class as a Spelljamming ship. It sounds to be more a "Techjamming ship".
The FSS Beagle is pure sci fi. Techjamming is a nice word :)
I have got a feeling (from a metagaming point of view) that a designer/GM can achive the same thing via technolgy (tech), arcane study (magic), divine worship (magic), mental concentration (psionics) or perhaps a combination of two or more of these things.
Pretty interesting. Mystaran cosmology breaks down the multiverse into building blocks known as Spheres of Power. These are Matter (Earth), Energy (Fire), Thought(Air), Time (Water) and Entropy (Death). I have theorized that each sphere is tied to its own type of powers:

Energy: Magic (That's canon)
Matter: Technology
Thought: Psionics
Time: Not sure here...
Entropy: Energy Drain/Necromancy

The AD&D Adventures in Space boxed set gives us (via Dragonlance) a wonky sort of tech, that is prone to go wrong. But (while I think that technology should still be prone to some level of malfunction) I suppose there is no reason why D&D could not be given tech at the same level as the highest level of magic. (This kind of ties in with your comments on Blackmoor as a d20 Modern setting.)
Most likely, it was the Blackmoorian attempts to combine magic an high technology which caused the cataclysmic event known as the Great Rain of Fire on Mystara, wiping out the entire Blackmoor civilization, and eventually giving rise to the standard Mystara setting...
I'm not usually a fan of tech in D&D, but that seems to be as it is something that is either tacked onto a fantasy world or used as something that is going to replace a fading magic. (I've seen people with similar opinions about tacked on psionics.) Having said that, I'm actually surprised that I"m getting a good feeling about the technolgy in Blackmoor.
8-)

In Blackmoor things seem to be the other way around with magic being the replacement for technology. I suppose that if you can study hard and become a spellcaster, that might seem better than studying hard and becoming a mechanic. So it might be that the "Newton"s, "Einstien"s and "Hawkins"s of Blackmoor would be replaced by "Gandalf"s.
I tend to agree. Combining magic and tech usually creates problems.
The question would then become, magic or no magic, could the Clan of the Fallen Star study a broken space ship, extract the knowledge of how it works and then use that knowledge to create magical devices that do the same thing as the different parts of the ship.

I can imagine people (especially if they are assisted by the FSS Beagle crew) being able to build the hull of a spaceship, add in decks or even add in something like steering fins. But some of the parts of a ship must be a lot harder to replicate. I don't think it would be an impossible task, but there must be some things that work so differently with magic that replacing one physical component would take three magic items, while replacing another ten physical components could be handled by a single magic item.
Take a look at James Mishler's treatsie on the history of Blackmoor over at pandius.com. Basically, he suggests that when the Blackmoorians came across high technology, they tried to duplicate it through the use of magic. This had some problems, as mentioned earlier. The people of Blackmoor had however not yet reached a stage where they could grasp such advanced tech.
Hmm. I'm wondering if Dave Arneson watched Star Trek and wanted to use Stephen Rocklin to play with the Prime Directive plot device that Trek uses to stop the Federation from being an Empire.
Its pretty much strait out of Star Trek. There are even references to a Prime Directive which make Captain Riesling hesitant in getting involved with the locals (something St. Stephen gladly violates).

Then again, the Cult of the Frog seem like a great way to use evangelism as a plot device.

I think that trying to get one over on the monks could be a very dangerous thing. It might just work, but if they rumbled something it could be deadly.

Then again, the monks might be so keen to believe something, that they invent their own reasons to follow St. Stephen.
I guess there doesnt have to be one single consequence of this. We can leave the direction the monks end up taking into the individual campaign. Different monks could probably end up drawing different conclusions too.

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Re: Fallen Star

Post by Yaztromo » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:44 pm

Havard wrote: Mystaran cosmology breaks down the multiverse into building blocks known as Spheres of Power. These are Matter (Earth), Energy (Fire), Thought(Air), Time (Water) and Entropy (Death). I have theorized that each sphere is tied to its own type of powers:

Energy: Magic (That's canon)
Matter: Technology
Thought: Psionics
Time: Not sure here...
Entropy: Energy Drain/Necromancy
Very interesting!
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Re: Fallen Star

Post by Yaztromo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:49 pm

Havard wrote:Energy: Magic (That's canon)
Matter: Technology
Thought: Psionics
Time: Not sure here...
Entropy: Energy Drain/Necromancy
Now that I think about it, in Zeitgeist campaigns there are also the Sorcerers / Chaos Mages that seem to have a "different kind" of magic perhaps closer to Entropy than Energy.
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Re: Fallen Star

Post by ripvanwormer » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:46 am

Havard wrote:Did the fallen god fall somewhere else?
It sounds like the location of Hadeen's corpse isn't particularly important, since it's not his corpse the Briela Clan searches for, but his bow. Could his bow actually be a technological device and not a divine artifact at all?

One possibility is that the death of Hadeen actually caused the crash of the Beagle. The Beagle crashed into a falling god, the wild magic of the event and sheer physical impact causing its engine to fail, but infusing it with a divine spark that caused it to eventually evolve into the Nucleus of the Spheres.

Or perhaps it was the other way around—the Beagle killed Hadeen by crashing into him.

Perhaps the body of Hadeen is in the same place the Beagle is, the corpus dei entangled with the crumpled hull of the ship, or buried beneath it.

Another possibility is that Hadeen isn't dead. His physical body was destroyed, but his spirit returned to his Home Plane to recover and regenerate another body. We're told that Hadeen now resides in the halls of his brother Raelralataen, god of death and law, but what if his stay there isn't permanent? Or maybe his bow has to be recovered for him to live again.

Maybe gods don't leave corpses. His body was always spirit, not gross matter, and it evaporated like a forgotten dream.

Perhaps Hadeen's corpse drifts in the Astral Plane, as the corpses of gods do in Planescape canon. Monte Cook's d20 book Requiem for a God suggests the following:
Requiem for a God wrote:The corpus dei may or may not be located in the place where the god actually died. In some campaigns, a god’s corpse falls where he died, just like anyone else’s. In others, a fallen deity returns to his otherworldly realm, the seat of his incredible power. Still other campaigns might establish a place where dead gods go—a sort of godly graveyard—located in some remote void like the Astral Plane. If such a site exists, it surely must be a place of strange wonders, not to mention intriguing treasures. Imagine an endless field in an empty void, with gigantic corpses made of stone floating in all directions, or a huge craterlike pit, the stone walls rising up all around you, with gigantic colossi—the corpses of dead gods, seemingly frozen in stone—staring down from where they stand, half embedded in the cliffs. Thus, physically speaking, the campaign may involve two places of importance: the site of death, and the site of repose, where the god’s final rest takes place.

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