Temple of Id

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Temple of Id

Postby Havard » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:16 pm

I've been following the thought that the name of this old temple could be connected to Freudian thinking. According to Freud, Id is:
Wikipedia wrote:It is the dark, inaccessible part of our personality, what little we know of it we have learnt from our study of the dream-work and of the construction of neurotic symptoms, and most of this is of a negative character and can be described only as a contrast to the ego. We all approach the id with analogies: we call it a chaos, a cauldron full of seething excitations... It is filled with energy reaching it from the instincts, but it has no organisation, produces no collective will, but only a striving to bring about the satisfaction of the instinctual needs subject to the observance of the pleasure principle.

[Freud, New Introductory Lectures on Psychoanalysis (1933)]



And further down, the wikipedia article notes:
Freud divided the id's drives and instincts into two categories: life and death instincts—the latter not so usually regarded because Freud thought of it later in his lifetime. Life instincts (Eros) are those that are crucial to pleasurable survival, such as eating and copulation. Death instincts, (Thanatos) as stated by Freud, is our unconscious wish to die, as death puts an end to the everyday struggles for happiness and survival


(From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego,_and_super-ego#Id )

Interestingly the D20 Dave Arneson's Blackmoor Sourcebook has a deity by the name of Thanatos. Could he be connected to the Temple of Id?

From the FFC we know that the Temple of Id contains the Gem of Sunlight (Extrapolation from David Ross). Also, we know from the D20 Sourcebook that Thanatos' enemy is Sollus. Thanatos killed Sollus' brother Temrin. Could he also have stolen the Gem of Sunlight from Sollus?

I am beginning to think of the Temple of Id as Blackmoor's Temple of Elemental Evil. It certainly has its set of evil cults connected to it.

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Re: Temple of Id

Postby BlackBat242 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:34 am

Havard wrote:I've been following the thought that the name of this old temple could be connected to Freudian thinking.


And further down, the wikipedia article notes:
Freud divided the id's drives and instincts into two categories: life and death instincts—the latter not so usually regarded because Freud thought of it later in his lifetime. Life instincts (Eros) are those that are crucial to pleasurable survival, such as eating and copulation. Death instincts, (Thanatos) as stated by Freud, is our unconscious wish to die, as death puts an end to the everyday struggles for happiness and survival


(From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego,_and_super-ego#Id )



Also from Wki... the article on "Death Drive":
In classical Freudian psychoanalytic theory, the death drive ("Todestrieb") is the drive towards death, destruction and forgetfulness. It was first proposed by Sigmund Freud in Beyond the Pleasure Principle. The death drive opposes Eros, the tendency towards cohesion and unity. The death drive is sometimes referred to as "Thanatos" in post-Freudian thought, complementing "Eros", although this term has no basis in Freud's own work, being rather introduced by Freud's secretary, Paul Federn.[1]

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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Havard » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:50 pm

Interesting, Blackbat. Any thoughts on how it may be applied to the setting? I like the term Death Drive. It seems like it would make a good name for a module dealing with the Cult of Id.

Note that I am ignoring the Eros aspect of Freud's Id. I mainly got interested in this whole thing because it gave me an excuse to connect the Temple of Id with the God/Immortal named Thanatos.

In Mystara, Thanatos is assoicated with Death, while in Blackmoor he also has a plague/disease aspect. The Clerics of Thanatos are spreaders of Plague. Pretty sinister stuff, which makes it understandable that the early founders of Blackmoor had such brutal confrontations with the Cult. The Temple of Id was probably the center of its worship, and I can see the Clergy of Thanatos trying to rebuild it in the classic Blackmoor era.




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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Chimpman » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:39 pm

Havard wrote:In Mystara, Thanatos is assoicated with Death, while in Blackmoor he also has a plague/disease aspect. The Clerics of Thanatos are spreaders of Plague. Pretty sinister stuff, which makes it understandable that the early founders of Blackmoor had such brutal confrontations with the Cult. The Temple of Id was probably the center of its worship, and I can see the Clergy of Thanatos trying to rebuild it in the classic Blackmoor era.

I actually like the idea of applying the disease aspect to Thanatos in Mystara as well. We have so many Death Immortals, that I just think this is a nice way for the big T to really stand out.
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Hugin » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:59 pm

Havard wrote:In Mystara, Thanatos is assoicated with Death, while in Blackmoor he also has a plague/disease aspect. The Clerics of Thanatos are spreaders of Plague. Pretty sinister stuff, which makes it understandable that the early founders of Blackmoor had such brutal confrontations with the Cult. The Temple of Id was probably the center of its worship, and I can see the Clergy of Thanatos trying to rebuild it in the classic Blackmoor era.

Like Chimpman, I really like this association of Thanatos with plagues and disease. It just seems a natural progression that he would use those to bring death. I also think it's a good example of how Immortals can use slightly different MOs or ideologies throughout the ages. Just because they are Immortal doesn't mean they are static, right?
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Havard » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:05 pm

Plus, we don't really have any patron of disease do we? Jammudaru might fit, but officially not so much.

I wonder if his followers back then would have been humans or something else...

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Re: Temple of Id

Postby BlackBat242 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:44 am

How about Thanatos' twin brother Hypnos?

Got any ideas for a "god of sleep"?

Depending on how "Greek" your Blackmoor is, there are lots more sibling godlings to work with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanatos
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Havard » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:36 pm

BlackBat242 wrote:How about Thanatos' twin brother Hypnos?

Got any ideas for a "god of sleep"?

Depending on how "Greek" your Blackmoor is, there are lots more sibling godlings to work with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanatos


I guess we could add at least some of this. Thanatos does seem to have a much more prominent role in Mystara/Blackmoor than he does in Greek Mythology though.

By the way, I just found a reference saying that the Temple of Id is linked to the Lords of the Egg of Coot. Does that mean the Egg serves these lords, or does it mean that the lords serve the Egg?

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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Chimpman » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:49 pm

After reading this "Temple of Id is linked to the Lords of the Egg of Coot" my first respons was that the lords serve the Egg. However after you posed your question I realized that it could in fact be interpreted either way. I you ask me I'd still have to go with my initial gut reaction.

The Egg serves no one...
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby BlackBat242 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:34 pm

Chimpman wrote:The Egg serves no one...



Come on... not even scrambled?
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Bonetti » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:44 pm

Just don't forget that the Temple of Id would deal with Heretics while Quake-ing in Rage and properly sealing their Doom.....

I know, I know, I'm a little too keen on making jokes ;-)
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Chimpman » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:45 pm

BlackBat242 wrote:
Chimpman wrote:The Egg serves no one...



Come on... not even scrambled?

I haven't met anyone yet who could even crack the shell, much less scramble it ;).
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Havard » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:39 pm

Chimpman wrote:After reading this "Temple of Id is linked to the Lords of the Egg of Coot" my first respons was that the lords serve the Egg. However after you posed your question I realized that it could in fact be interpreted either way. I you ask me I'd still have to go with my initial gut reaction.

The Egg serves no one...


I tend to agree with this. :twisted:

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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Dave L » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:03 pm

Bonetti wrote:Just don't forget that the Temple of Id would deal with Heretics while Quake-ing in Rage and properly sealing their Doom.....

I know, I know, I'm a little too keen on making jokes ;-)


Oh dear, that was truly full of awe. :)

Although, having a Commander William (Billy) Keen of the city guard would be pretty cool, almost as good as Sir John of the Wain in the Savage Coast.

I know, too sad for words. :lol:
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Havard » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:40 pm

The interesting point about linking the Temple of Id to the Egg of Coot is that at the time of the reign of the Temple of Id, the Egg was still hidden (sleeping?) beneath the waves of the Black Sea...

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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Dave L » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:48 pm

Havard wrote:The interesting point about linking the Temple of Id to the Egg of Coot is that at the time of the reign of the Temple of Id, the Egg was still hidden (sleeping?) beneath the waves of the Black Sea...

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So what was the context of the reference linking the two?
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Havard » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:57 pm

Dave L wrote:So what was the context of the reference linking the two?


It's in the FFC. IIRC it says something like the Temple of Id being made up of servants to the Lords of the Egg of Coot. I think this is not under the entry of the Egg of Coot, but somewhere in the details of the lands surrounding Blackmoor town.

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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Dave L » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:18 pm

After a bit of searching, would this be the passage?

The Ruins: Some five miles to the west and northwest of the town of Blackmoor, there exists the remains of an old temple complex devoted to the Dark Lords of the Egg of Coot until razed sometime in the last 500 years.


A bit later we have in the description of the town of Blackmoor:
Off the map one mile to the northwest is the ruined Temple of the Id Monster.

So that links the two and confirms the Ruins as those of the Temple of Id.

If it's in the FFC, that would make it canon, yes? So all we need to do now is work out what it means!
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Havard » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:27 pm

Dave L wrote:After a bit of searching, would this be the passage?

The Ruins: Some five miles to the west and northwest of the town of Blackmoor, there exists the remains of an old temple complex devoted to the Dark Lords of the Egg of Coot until razed sometime in the last 500 years.


A bit later we have in the description of the town of Blackmoor:
Off the map one mile to the northwest is the ruined Temple of the Id Monster.

So that links the two and confirms the Ruins as those of the Temple of Id.

If it's in the FFC, that would make it canon, yes? So all we need to do now is work out what it means!


Yeah, that's the one. The 500 years period also matches the Temple of Id's destruction.

My idea is that the Dark Lords of the Temple of Id are gods (aka Immortals) who share a common goal with the Egg of Coot. Thanatos is one such God. He is one of the powers worshipped by the Cult of Id. The Id Monster itself is an Elder Evil, just like the Egg of Coot is. Note that I would not use the Id Monster as described in the FFC. The experience of being hunted and eaten and then waking up somewhere naked and without the Gem is not what actually takes place. Rather this is something that happens in the mind of those who face the Id Monster, a Nightmarish experience, rarely without permanent mental side effects...

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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Dave L » Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:01 pm

So, rather than have your player work out how to get back to where he (or she!) was sleeping before his stuff gets stolen, whilst bare-naked, you'd make him role-play a mental instability (presumably with an ability point penalty)?

I'm not sure whether you're a spoil-sport or just plain evil! :)

Remind me never to play when you're in charge. ;)
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby ripvanwormer » Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:43 pm

I think the "id monster" is probably a reference to the movie Forbidden Planet.

Interesting quote from the Wikipedia article:

"The author Colin Wilson has likened Forbidden Planet's "monsters from the id" to claimed occult phenomena involving monsters from the subconscious, and in his novel The Philosopher's Stone, the destruction of Mu is caused similarly by subconscious monsters from the sleeping minds of the Old Ones."
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Chimpman » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:04 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:I think the "id monster" is probably a reference to the movie Forbidden Planet.

Yep, I remember that one :ugeek:
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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Havard » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:17 pm

Dave L wrote:So, rather than have your player work out how to get back to where he (or she!) was sleeping before his stuff gets stolen, whilst bare-naked, you'd make him role-play a mental instability (presumably with an ability point penalty)?

I'm not sure whether you're a spoil-sport or just plain evil! :)

Remind me never to play when you're in charge. ;)


*Lol*

Well, the description in the FFC gives me this computer game association where the results are predetermined; the monster always finds you, you always end up eaten, you always wake up in the same spot etc. I was trying to find a way around that. Presenting the monster more like a Nightmareish curse seemed like a way to do it. That doesnt mean the curse cannot be broken though. However, this should not be something a low level party should be able to accomplish. I like reducing the wis score to represent mental scars. :twisted:

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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Havard » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:20 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:I think the "id monster" is probably a reference to the movie Forbidden Planet.

Interesting quote from the Wikipedia article:

"The author Colin Wilson has likened Forbidden Planet's "monsters from the id" to claimed occult phenomena involving monsters from the subconscious, and in his novel The Philosopher's Stone, the destruction of Mu is caused similarly by subconscious monsters from the sleeping minds of the Old Ones."


Ah. The movie itself hasnt aged well, but I do like this concept of a monster from the subconcious. A monster from the mind of the sleeping Old Ones is even better! Could the Id Monster have been created from the dreams of the Egg of Coot, when the Egg was still sleeping beneath the sea?

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Re: Temple of Id

Postby Havard » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:18 pm

TheLegend of King Uhlmar threadhas given me some more ideas about the Temple of Id. In that thread, I suggested that the Temple was erected on the ground where Thanatos had killed Temrin, God of Time. It seems clear to me that the Temple of Id were followers of Thanatos primarily, although Hel and other entropics (Demogorgon?) may have been worshipped there as well. One question that arises is that of who these Cultists were. Were they Thonians or members of another race/culture? The Red Coven, founders of the Duchy of the Peaks around the same time are also likely suspects. These were probably also of Thonian origins, however.


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