WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

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WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by agathokles » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:59 pm

I'm wondering where Barrik's Castle is located, both in Outer and Hollow World.

Outer World
There's some evidence in favor of Thunder Rift -- chiefly, the use of the name Barrik in Quest for the Silver Sword.
Also, many aspects of Barrik's and his people culture hardly fit in other areas of Mystara -- for example, the main NPC priestess worships Ka, a rather unusual Immortal in the Outer World (where he is worshiped mostly by Stone Giants, Tortles, some Rakasta, the Wallara, and some Lizard-kin).
However, this is not definite as he is mentioned in the Codex as being worshiped in Alphatia and Darokin, so at least some options are available.

On the other hand, the sage Marmillian appears to be familiar with Azcan and Oltec cultures, and identifies them as being part of the past -- something that clashes with Thunder Rift, unless Thunder Rift itself is somewhere near the Known World. While the Oltec Man was quite widespread, the specific Azcan and Oltec cultures are reasonably limited to the territory between the Atruaghin Clans and the Savage Baronies -- a large area, but it is unlikely that a sage from southern Davania, Skothar or Northwestern Brun would have heard about them, especially if he himself comes from an insular community or region.

Currently, I'm leaning towards northern Darokin -- has some Ka worshipers, has enough nearby goblinoids as well as sufficiently near Halfling, Dwarf and Elf communities, and it is near enough Atruaghin that a competent scholar from Darokin could reasonably be able to recognize Azcan artifacts.
The primary drawback is that Hector Barrik is a Duke, and Darokin is a republic. However, there are the Magistrates of the Borderlands, who are basically hereditary nobles, vassals of the Republic itself. While AFAIR they don't normally have other titles except that of Lord, and are typically equivalent to barons rather than dukes. However, it is conceivable that a Border Magistrate may have a local, traditional title, since Darokin has a complex history and was once a feudal kingdom.

Hollow World
This is tricky. We know that the Hidden Valley where Barrik's castle appears in the Hollow World is circled by tall mountains, and has underground passages leading north to the Malpheggi Swamp and to the southern border of the Azcan Empire, and south-east to the Shattenalfen Realm.
An "Oltec Tradeway" is found to the west (north-west, really).

This makes it like the valley is somewhere in the vicinity of Teptitlan mines... still it is not easy to provide a reasonable placement, especially as the game makes all these locations quite nearer than they actually are.

Opinions?

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:17 am

Any study of the Oltecs would reveal information on the Azcans, since Azcans started as Oltec slaves. (iirc) Marmillian should be atleast 14th level as a Magic-User w/ an 18 Int and 18 Wis w/ a heavy reliance on "information" type spells.

Thunder Rift isn't so insular since it has 3 "known" exits: 1 in the North-East, 1 in the East and 1 in the South. Merchants do some trade outside the valley, mostly thru the East and South routes since the North-East route gives mountain goats nightmares.

As for its location, I prefer setting it on the same continent as Blackmoor and have it starting out as a Blackmoorian colony that survived the GRoF; but w/o any Blackmoorian tech.

iirc your placement in the Hollow World sounds about right. "I think" there's a Shattenalfen city in that region of the HW that starts w/ an R; but, don't quote me on that. Found it: Ranthryl is a Shattenalfen city just north of a volcano which can account for the Fire Plains passage. Nomarys is a Shattenalfen city to the east of that volcano, so either could work for the one found ingame.
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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Argentmantle » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:07 am

I'd personally aim for it to be the last of a branch of feudal Darokinian culture. I.e giving the Immortals a real reason to snatch it up into the Hollow World.

As for Marmalade being an expert on Azcan/Oltec cultures, he might be a hobbyist or it's an area of specialization for him.

Moving on to HW locations, I'd say that there might be a 'sphere of influence' that exist beyond the boundaries of the map. Patrols, traders, colonies, and outposts might spring up within a nominal distance of the mother culture.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Sturm » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:49 am

In Threshold issue #9, I've placed it right west of the Shattenalfen http://pandius.com/Hollow_World_60mph.png
A vassal of the last kings of Darokin might me reasonable indeed.
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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by agathokles » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:17 pm

Gravesguardian wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:17 am
Any study of the Oltecs would reveal information on the Azcans, since Azcans started as Oltec slaves. (iirc) Marmillian should be atleast 14th level as a Magic-User w/ an 18 Int and 18 Wis w/ a heavy reliance on "information" type spells.
I agree on both points, but neither gives particular support to the Thunder Rift hypothesis -- unless Thunder Rift is near the Known World or Hule, it is unlikely that they have any evidence of the Oltec culture. And Marmillian cannot use spells such as Lore or Contact Outer Plane to get his information, as these spells don't work in the Hollow World. Thus, he may at most use Read Languages to read the Azcan inscriptions, but cannot get his information about the Azcans being an ancient culture from an external source -- he must have known before he was transported to the Hollow World.
Thunder Rift isn't so insular since it has 3 "known" exits: 1 in the North-East, 1 in the East and 1 in the South. Merchnats do some trade outside the valley, mostly thru the East and South routes since the North-East route gives mountain goats nightmares.

As for its location, I prefer setting it on the same continent as Blackmoor and have it starting out as a Blackmoorian colony that survived the GRoF; but w/o any Blackmoorian tech.
I mean insular compared with the Known World. Especially if you place Thunder Rift in the area of Blackmoor (i.e., Northern Skothar), it is unlikely that they may have heard of the Oltec culture (note that the more generic "Oltec Man", comparable in breadth to the Neathar and the Tanagoro as a root ethnic group would yield little information on the actual Oltecs, who are a much later group located near the Azcans).

A placement of Thunder Rift in the Known World -- for example as a Borderlands of Darokin -- would of course solve the issue. OTOH, I thoroughly disagree with Havard's tentative placement of Thunder Rift in the Altan Tepes, as it would be contrary to the geography of the area.
iirc your placement in the Hollow World sounds about right. "I think" there's a Shattenalfen city in that region of the HW that starts w/ an R; but, don't quote me on that. Found it: Ranthryl is a Shattenalfen city just north of a volcano which can account for the Fire Plains passage. Nomarys is a Shattenalfen city to the east of that volcano, so either could work for the one found ingame.
Indeed. On the other hand, the location proposed by Sturm, while it does have some advantages ("near" the Oltec lands, secluded hills area circled by mountains) is definitely too far from both the Malpheggi (280 miles) and Azcan lands (400 miles).

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:45 pm

Another option for Marmillian's knowledge of Oltecs and Azcans could come from his adventuring days. To reach a minimum of 14th level, he could've adventured all over the Known World before "accidently" getting transported to Thunder Rift where his knowledge and skill would've drawn the attention of Duke Barrik's father who employed Marmillian as his sage and tutor to his son. (Since there is no information on the named NPC's from WotES, some of them could've come from outside the valley before the start of the Goblin Wars.)
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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by agathokles » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:52 pm

Gravesguardian wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:45 pm
Another option for Marmillian's knowledge of Oltecs and Azcans could come from his adventuring days. To reach a minimum of 14th level, he could've adventured all over the Known World before "accidently" getting transported to Thunder Rift where is knowledge and skill would've drawn the attention of Duke Barrik's father who employed Marmillian as his sage and tutor to his son. (Since there is no information on the named NPC's from WotES, some of them could've come from outside the valley before the start of the Goblin Wars.)
True, Marmillian could have traveled a lot.
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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:33 pm

Side note: the spells you listed, & similar spells, only stop working once the valley is transported to the Hollow World. They would've worked fine before that and he could've used them to acquire his primary knowledge on Oltecs and Azcans. Then once in HW he would've had to rely on "lesser" means to get more information.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by agathokles » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:52 pm

Gravesguardian wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:33 pm
Side note: the spells you listed, & similar spells, only stop working once the valley is transported to the Hollow World. They would've worked fine before that and he could've used them to acquire his primary knowledge on Oltecs and Azcans. Then once in HW he would've had to rely on "lesser" means to get more information.
Yes, but if he didn't know about the Azcans in the first place, he wouldn't be able to ask about them or gather any knowledge about them.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:04 pm

Right, I was only mentioning it as one example of how they would start learning some spells don't work in the HW.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Havard » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:33 pm

Location in the outer world.

My assumption of locating Barrik's Castle in Thunder Rift was as you say the reference to Barrik's Keep in Quest for the Silver Sword, but also the reference in Thunder Rift material to the Goblin Wars. Barrik's Castle was transported to the Hollow World while it was under attack by a goblin army.

Darokin is another possibility.

Location in the Hollow World:

See this map for my placement of Barrik's Valley.

The rationale here is to have proximity to Malpheggi Lizardmen, Schattenalfen and Oltecs. Milennians are also present in the game, but I could see them having launched an expedition there. Closeness to the Malpheggi seems most important IMO.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:37 pm

Havard wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:33 pm
Location in the outer world.

My assumption of locating Barrik's Castle in Thunder Rift was as you say the reference to Barrik's Keep in Quest for the Silver Sword, but also the reference in Thunder Rift material to the Goblin Wars. Barrik's Castle was transported to the Hollow World while it was under attack by a goblin army.

Darokin is another possibility.

Location in the Hollow World:

See this map for my placement of Barrik's Valley.

The rationale here is to have proximity to Malpheggi Lizardmen, Schattenalfen and Oltecs. Milennians are also present in the game, but I could see them having launched an expedition there. Closeness to the Malpheggi seems most important IMO.

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Getting an error when clicking that link.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Havard » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:40 pm

Gravesguardian wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:37 pm


Getting an error when clicking that link.
Sorry, fixed now. Here's the link again: https://blackmoor.mystara.net/img/hw09.jpg

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:43 pm

Havard wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:40 pm
Gravesguardian wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:37 pm


Getting an error when clicking that link.
Sorry, fixed now. Here's the link again: https://blackmoor.mystara.net/img/hw09.jpg

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Doesn't that put it kinda far from the Azcans?

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by agathokles » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 pm

Actually, the locations of the Azcan Empire, Shattenalfen Realms, and Malpheggi Swamps can be made out better in Thorf's updated map.

As Gravesguardian was mentioning above, Ranthryl or Nomarys can be the Shattenalfen settlement. Malpheggi should be to somewhere to the north-west, Azcan's southern border should be to the north-east. One of the
mountain hexes north-east of the Shattenalfen cities, perhaps?

Note that each hex there is 40 miles, thus distances are quite a bit longer than in the game.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:41 pm

Looking at all the various maps leads to one simple conclusion: when they made the game, they didn't bother looking at an actual map of the area. Anywhere the valley gets placed, it'll be too far from either Azcan lands or Oltec lands.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Havard » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:13 pm

agathokles wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 pm
As Gravesguardian was mentioning above, Ranthryl or Nomarys can be the Shattenalfen settlement. Malpheggi should be to somewhere to the north-west, Azcan's southern border should be to the north-east. One of the
mountain hexes north-east of the Shattenalfen cities, perhaps?
That's not a bad spot.

As Gravesguardian says, nothing will fit perfectly, but I think we need mountains and at least proximity to a few of the relevant cultures.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:28 pm

Time to cause a little more flak to fly: Hollow World Campaign Setting: Dungeon Master's Sourcebook pg. 10:

BC 4,500: Beastmen - reincarnated souls of evil beings - appear in the Borean Valley, a frozen land north of Blackmoor. These Beastmen are wild, chaotic creatures which do not breed true; whelps may have some or none of the traits of their parents, may be of different size and appearance. This is all brought about by the magic of Hel, an Immortal of the Sphere of Entropy, who wants to introduce more confusion, dismay and death into the world.

BC 4,000: Blackmoor begins a meteoric rise due to its great success in developing powerful sciences and technologies. It con quers and assimilates all surrounding human tribes and quickly grows very powerful.
Another human civilization, the Oltecs, begins a more stately rise toward civilization in the lands far to the south of Blackmoor. Protected by deep forests and sheltering hills, they do not have any communication with Blackmoor.

BC 3,500: A rift occurs within the Oltec civilization; the more aggressive Azcan cities declare their independence and begin to wage war on the Oltecs.

The important parts show that Beastmen, Oltecs and Azcans all existed at the same time as Blackmoor and on the same continent. Now if Thunder Rift were to exist on the same continent; but, south of Blackmoor and north of the Oltecs; that could help explain why Marmillian is familiar with all 3 groups.

Hollow World Campaign Setting Dungeon Masters Sourcebook on pg. 12:

BC 2,000-1750: The Beastmen have now evolved into modern species of orcs, goblins, ogres, giants and trolls.

I find this interesting since ingame you encounter: Beastmen, Giants, Ogres and Trolls; but, I've yet to find any mention of ogres, giants and trolls being saved into the Hollow World. Could they have managed to breed true in HW, while orcs and goblins didn't?

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by agathokles » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:12 am

Well, actually Blackmoor and the Oltecs did not have any contact, and it doesn't really say the were on the same continent -- just far to the South.

Regarding orcs, there are orcs in the HW, at least the Krugel Orcs.

However, Trolls and Ogres might come from the Outer world , accidentally transported with the humans and demihumans.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Shannon » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:17 pm

Well, every point you make about northern Darokin holds also for (southern?) Glantri, and Glantri gets 'round the conundrum of Barrick's being a duke (and, hey, he is a magic-user). Glantri also has many mountainous areas wherein an isolated alpine vale is easily placed.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Argentmantle » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:55 pm

agathokles wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:12 am
Well, actually Blackmoor and the Oltecs did not have any contact, and it doesn't really say the were on the same continent -- just far to the South.

Regarding orcs, there are orcs in the HW, at least the Krugel Orcs.

However, Trolls and Ogres might come from the Outer world , accidentally transported with the humans and demihumans.

GP
I'd even go so far to say that there are undocumented tribes of humanoids that have been picked up and tossed into the Hollow World when their unique cultures were being wiped out.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Shannon » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:16 pm

Forgive the tangent, but this tidbit about giants evolving from beastmen is fascinating. If I recall aright, it contradicts information in the Bestiary of Dragons & Giants and other sources. It's an especially weird claim vis-a-vis cloud giants, sea giants, and storm giants, a little more plausible (but, I think, still weird) regarding frost giants and fire giants, but pretty believable about hill giants and stone giants and (maybe) mountain giants and forest giants....

I'm curious if people in their campaigns have it that giants originated from beastmen or not.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:51 pm

Shannon wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:17 pm
Well, every point you make about northern Darokin holds also for (southern?) Glantri, and Glantri gets 'round the conundrum of Barrick's being a duke (and, hey, he is a magic-user). Glantri also has many mountainous areas wherein an isolated alpine vale is easily placed.
The TR adventure Quest for the Silver Sword list's the last owner of Barrik's Keep as a Magic-User. WotES doesn't give Duke Barrik a class, so you can list him as a M-U, which would make Glantri a good location. On that same note: could you fit TR in Alphatia?

Until I re-read and found that part about Giants evolving from Beastmen, I looked to the Bestiary for giant evolution. (Someone can correct me if I'm wrong; but, wasn't there some kind of Giant civilization existing before Blackmoor? Which would make the giants evolving from beastmen wrong.)

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by ripvanwormer » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:40 pm

Shannon wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:16 pm
Forgive the tangent, but this tidbit about giants evolving from beastmen is fascinating. If I recall aright, it contradicts information in the Bestiary of Dragons & Giants and other sources. It's an especially weird claim vis-a-vis cloud giants, sea giants, and storm giants, a little more plausible (but, I think, still weird) regarding frost giants and fire giants, but pretty believable about hill giants and stone giants and (maybe) mountain giants and forest giants....

I'm curious if people in their campaigns have it that giants originated from beastmen or not.
Stone giants are unrelated to other giants, according to AC10, and they were created by an ancient Immortal of earth. AC10 claims that "eons ago" giants ruled the Earth (not yet named Mystara).

I'm fond of Marco Dalmonte's history of giants.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by agathokles » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:41 pm

Shannon wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:17 pm
Well, every point you make about northern Darokin holds also for (southern?) Glantri, and Glantri gets 'round the conundrum of Barrick's being a duke (and, hey, he is a magic-user). Glantri also has many mountainous areas wherein an isolated alpine vale is easily placed.
Duke Hector Barrik is a Fighter... Thuder Rift's Barrik was a Magic User, but he is at most an ancestor of the Duke.

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