Neathar: The Nogai Tribe

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Havard
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Neathar: The Nogai Tribe

Post by Havard »

I think I have come across a tribe of Neathar we have not talked about before. The Nogai are mentioned in Wrath of the Immortals, but I dont think I have seen them elsewhere. If they defeat the PCs in the Wrath of the Immortals adventure, they strip them of weapons and armor and leave them to be eaten by a Carnivore Land Dinosaur, but I am not sure if the Dinosaur is their totem animal or not.

The Nogai are of Stone Age technology. They are hunters, trappers and furriers. They trade with nearby mountain elves (Gentle Folk?) and other Neathar tribes and live in the forest. They are enemies of the Valgrai (Wolf Tribe). The Nogai use spears and short bows.

I have added them to my list of Hollow World cultures, not in the boxed set.

Thoughts on the Nogai?

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Re: Neathar: The Nogai Tribe

Post by Havard »

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I just noticed on the WotI map (replica above), the river leading north west from Haldemar is called the Nogai River.
Havard wrote:They trade with nearby mountain elves (Gentle Folk?) and other Neathar tribes and live in the forest.
The map makes it clear that the mountain elves cannot be Gentle Folk, though the arrow next to the mountains points to Icevale Elves, so perhaps those are the ones trading with the Nogai, unless I have discovered a new elven race as well? :o :ugeek:

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Re: Neathar: The Nogai Tribe

Post by Sturm »

I think Tolai and Nogai should be the tribes in the Alphatian Neatharum area.
IIRC the Tolai ride dinosaurs in WotI and in the Almanacs.
Probably both tribes should be both trainers of dinosaurs.
I don't know about their outer world origin, maybe they could be modeled on RW european neolithic cultures, so they could have been ancient inhabitants of Skothar, ancestors of Thonians and Blackmoorians.
In the HW the training of dinosaurs should have changed their culture considerably, however.

I'd place the amazonian nethars elsewhere. They could well be linked with my Pelatan history (http://pandius.com/pelatanm.html)

In the last issue of Threshold I also made a map of the Hollow World (also here: http://pandius.com/Hollow_World_60mph.png) where I suggested some others non human cultures that could live in the area, such as primitive lupins (Aardovai) and Bisontaurs. Also trolls (maybe ancient, more intelligent trolls), are placed in the nearby hills by the HW boxed set.
Last edited by Sturm on Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neathar: The Nogai Tribe

Post by Havard »

Sturm wrote:I think Tolai and Nogai should be the tribes in the Alphatian Neatharum area.
IIRC the Tolai rides dinosaurs in WotI and in the Almanacs.
Probably both tribes should be both trainers of dinosaurs.
AFAIK there are no references to Tolai or Dinosaur Riding Neathar in WotI, but I would have to check the Almanacs. It would be very interesting if this tribe is introduced there.
I don't know about their outer world origin, maybe they could be modeled on RW european neolithic cultures, so they could have been ancient inhabitants of Skothar, ancestors of Thonians and Blackmoorians.
In the HW the training of dinosaurs should have changed their culture considerably, however.
Yes, they could be from anywhere really. Many of the other Neathar tribes are from the Known World are and the rest of Brun. The Toralai (Bison Hunters) are from Thyatis/Kerendas for instance. If they learned to ride dinosaurs in the Hollow World that would make them similar to the Hiarkai who domesticated the Giant Eagles after being placed in the Hollow World so it makes sense that other tribes could adapt like that too.
I'd place the amazonian nethars elsewhere. They could well be linked with my Pelatan history (http://pandius.com/pelatanm.html)
I think that was also Cthulhudrew's idea. I dont see why they could not be in this area though, but if not I still think the Tolai and Nagai should be distinct from one another. If we make them both dinosaur riders they seem a little too similar. Maybe specializing in different dinosaurs? Or Sword Beaks? :)
In the last issue of Threshold I also made a map of the Hollow World (also here: http://pandius.com/Hollow_World_60mph.png) where I suggested some others non human cultures that could live in the area, such as primitive lupins (Aardovai) and Bisontaurs. Also trolls (maybe ancient, more intelligent trolls), are placed in the nearby hills by the HW boxed set.
Wow, that map has alot more detail than I first realized! I need to go and reread Threshold now. :)

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Re: Neathar: The Nogai Tribe

Post by Sturm »

In the Poor Wizard's Almanac I, on Nuwmont 28th 1010 a Toralai neathar chief, Otor, it is said to have learned to train and ride dinosaurs for battle. He unified several tribe and soon attack a Nogai village occupied by the alphatians.
Toralai dinosaur riders and Hiakrai eagle riders forge an alliance against alphatians in Yarthmont, 4th.
On Yarthmont 28th Jafili, a Toralai triceratops rider, is brought before Eriadna and kills herself proclaiming her people will choose death over slavery. This event has an huge future impact on Eriadna.
Neathar dinosaur riders and Hiakrai eagle riders attack Haldemar, the capital of the Alphatian Neatharum in the HW, on Klarmont, 23rd.
In Fyrmont, 11th another entry says that Nogai and Toralai dinosaur riders stage another raid in Haldemar to free Nogai slaves.
From the above and what it's written in the WotI, we could assume that the Nogai, initially not dinosaur riders, were the first tribe conquered by the alphatians before WotI.
The Toralai, probably inhabitants of the area around Tolai lake and river, were attacked later and reacted from 1010 AC onwards, training dinosaurs and forging an alliance with the Hiakrai. Later, the Toralai could have teached the Nogai to ride dinosaurs too.
The dinosaur training thing seems to be something caused by the alphatian invasion, but probably the Toralai already had some basic dinosaur training techniques.
In Sviftmont, 10th, Eriadna send ambassadors to the Toralai dinosaur riders.
On Eirmont, 13th, it's said that a peace treaty is established in Toralai territory between Alphatians, Toralai, Hiakrai and Nogai. The chief of the dinosaur riders Otor of the Toralai seems to be the main neathar negotiator.
The Hiakrai even helps the Alphatian in Kaldmont against the Heldannic Knights in Stonehaven.
On Felmont 1, 1011 AC Eriadna also renamed the new kingdom of Zandoria in Jafilia to honor Jafili.
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Re: Neathar: The Nogai Tribe

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Sturm wrote:In the Poor Wizard's Almanac I, on Nuwmont 28th 1010 a Toralai neathar chief, Otor, it is said to have learned to train and ride dinosaurs for battle. He unified several tribe and soon attack a Nogai village occupied by the alphatians.
Toralai dinosaur riders and Hiakrai eagle riders forge an alliance against alphatians in Yarthmont, 4th.
On Yarthmont 28th Jafili, a Toralai triceratops rider, is brought before Eriadna and kills herself proclaiming her people will choose death over slavery. This event has an huge future impact on Eriadna.
Neathar dinosaur riders and Hiakrai eagle riders attack Haldemar, the capital of the Alphatian Neatharum in the HW, on Klarmont, 23rd.
In Fyrmont, 11th another entry says that Nogai and Toralai dinosaur riders stage another raid in Haldemar to free Nogai slaves.
From the above and what it's written in the WotI, we could assume that the Nogai, initially not dinosaur riders, were the first tribe conquered by the alphatians before WotI.
The Toralai, probably inhabitants of the area around Tolai lake and river, were attacked later and reacted from 1010 AC onwards, training dinosaurs and forging an alliance with the Hiakrai. Later, the Toralai could have teached the Nogai to ride dinosaurs too.
The dinosaur training thing seems to be something caused by the alphatian invasion, but probably the Toralai already had some basic dinosaur training techniques.
In Sviftmont, 10th, Eriadna send ambassadors to the Toralai dinosaur riders.
On Eirmont, 13th, it's said that a peace treaty is established in Toralai territory between Alphatians, Toralai, Hiakrai and Nogai. The chief of the dinosaur riders Otor of the Toralai seems to be the main neathar negotiator.
The Hiakrai even helps the Alphatian in Kaldmont against the Heldannic Knights in Stonehaven.
On Felmont 1, 1011 AC Eriadna also renamed the new kingdom of Zandoria in Jafilia to honor Jafili.
Ah, this is extremely helpful. Thank you very much!

The Toralai are detailed on your own map to live much father to the HW-east (left on the map). They used to be Bison-hunters in what is now Thyatis/Kerendas. Apparently some of them have learned to ride dinosarus according to what you are providing now.

It could be that the Tolai River and Lake Tolai is named after the Toralai, but could it also be that it is a separate Tolai Tribe?

It is interesting that the Toralai and Nogai are working together though. Could it be that the various fan maps are incorrect about the placement of these tribes, or do we have canon maps confirming their locations?


I like that we have the name of a chieftain, Otor, from the Toralai Tribe.

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Re: Neathar: The Nogai Tribe

Post by Sturm »

You are right, but the Iciria part of the map was just taken from Thorf's replica, so it's canon.
Hard to say why the almanac writers used the term Toralai when both Valgrai and Balarai were canonically closer.
Maybe because they saw the Tolai river and lake?
Indeed the Dinosaur riders could be western Toralai living in the vicinity of the Tolai river and lake, who at some point in time and for some unknown reason left the main Toralai bison hunters group in the east...
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Re: Neathar: The Nogai Tribe

Post by Havard »

Sturm wrote:You are right, but the Iciria part of the map was just taken from Thorf's replica, so it's canon.
Hard to say why the almanac writers used the term Toralai when both Valgrai and Balarai were canonically closer.
Maybe because they saw the Tolai river and lake?
Indeed the Dinosaur riders could be western Toralai living in the vicinity of the Tolai river and lake, who at some point in time and for some unknown reason left the main Toralai bison hunters group in the east...
Well, the Neathar are nomads so having them move across northern Iciria should not be a problem IMO. A sub culture of western Toralai being dinosaur riders is a possibility, but how about instead having only an elect elite being able to ride them? In game terms this could be restricted to higher level characters? Perhaps a bit like how more powerful characters could join the Order of the Griffon or the Retebius Air Fleet in the Known World?

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Re: Neathar: The Nogai Tribe

Post by Sturm »

Possible, I don't think the almanacs specify how many Toralai are dinosaur riders.. it sounds like they have many.
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