Hollow World Perspective

For the world is hollow, and I have touched the sky.
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Flying Continents

Post by aklanda » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:38 pm

Another view of the Hollow World, this time with flying Continets (Alphatia, Hiak-lor, Chijioke, Disa) in the sky. Cassia is also there, nearly causing a partial solar eclipse, but is rather unspottable. Also added clouds, which changes the view quite a bit.

Enjoy: https://youtu.be/cQSqNkqZO4A

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Robin
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Robin » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:19 pm

AWESOME !!!

And even if a tad too red, it clearly reveals how dark the Hollow World is, and what ffects a red sun to the envirinment would give.

As trying to stay treu to the canon text, the light is reddish..so simikar to the outer world yet with a more red tone, and the sun itself being more red than white/yellow on the our=ter world

Still Awesome work. thanx
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Sturm » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:42 am

Not sure it should be so red. I liked the first one more. In this latter view, the Hollow World would have no color except red, seem a bit to extreme to me.
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:01 am

Yes, you got a point. A bit too much red. Though it isn´t easy to get just the right level of red. Here is another try, less red, Alphatia, Hiak-lor, Chijioke, Disa up in the Air and Cassia causing a minor partial sun eclipse and throwing a shadow on the surface.


https://youtu.be/DnyWmgiu7FU


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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Sturm » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:14 am

Beautiful video, still I would tone down the red greatly, in my imagination the Hollow World should have the colour which on the Outer world you might have at sunsets, i.e. with a bit of reddish light but still with all the other colours fully recognizable.
But I do not know if this would be technically possible and anyway you could have a different idea on the right shade of red.
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:52 am

Robin wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:19 pm
As trying to stay treu to the canon text, the light is reddish..so simikar to the outer world yet with a more red tone, and the sun itself being more red than white/yellow on the our=ter world

Still Awesome work. thanx
Thanks for the praise and the comments. Looks like I mixed up the "Red Sun" series with "Hollow World". Ok, here is another one, this time with "reddish" instead of "red". Alas thus everything (sky, sea,...) gets purple. Comments welcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NySe3rHYK1c

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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Robin » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:12 pm

Very Nice (and extremely fast). I agree it feels more purple. Yet your overall display of color palette is reasonably close.
vegetation closeby should add more color to this.
however, said this the details are now much clearer.
In both the given video's creatures would evolve with larger eyes to see more detail, as the overall light is decreased (the HW spell of preservation would prevent this however, and thus handicap these creatures forever, also not living like intended...that is the crux in the HW canon...being one very nice and functional idea not really given deep thought about such consequences.)

i would lighten the red even a tad more, to enable normal green (originally outer world) plants to survive. my opinion based on the HW canon is that the light resembles the OW sun, yet with a reddish tint. yet the sun itself would seem red instead of (OW) white.
i presume clouds would thus be more white like ss in RL, yet with a faint cotton candy pink hue to it.
seas in the background would then become a puplish tone, and greens (like forests) be gree with a blue tone.
as said this is my opinion also based on RL biology based on light effects.
Hope this helps, as I don't mean to criticise
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:04 pm

Robin wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:12 pm
i presume clouds would thus be more white like ss in RL, yet with a faint cotton candy pink hue to it.
seas in the background would then become a puplish tone, and greens (like forests) be gree with a blue tone.
as said this is my opinion also based on RL biology based on light effects.
Hope this helps, as I don't mean to criticise
Thanks for the comments Robin, they are greatly appreciated, as they make me reconsider things a bit.

There is maybe a misunderstanding in the way I set the colors in this world (or in the way I understand you :? ). I don´t change the colors of the sea, leaves, ground or sky. Actually I am using a predefined tree with "normal" color and the color of the sea is the color of the sea in the map of the Hollow World. Same with sky and the color of the clouds, they are just "normal" ones.

All I do is changing the color of the sun. And this changes the colors of everything as the UnrealEngine simulates the influence of the light coming from the sun on all the objects in the scenery and specially on their color. So if I use a reddish sun I get a purple sky and also purple clouds, sea and whatever. It´s a kind of physics-simulation, all I do is feeding it with the sun-color.I put a serial of four pictures in here to illustrate what I mean (They are made with a kind of fish-eye to get all the items, sun, clouds, sea and ground in one picture).

As you can see in the last two picture you don´t really see a red sun anymore if its color is too near to white (Or at least in the last picture it doesn´t seem reddish to me anymore). The colors you predicted are also true, though the simulation seems to disagree on the green becoming blue. This may be because the simulation is calculating colors additional not subtractional?

Something in between the color in the second and the third picture is what I used as sun-color for the last movie. Everything less reddish is in my point if view not a detectable "reddish" sun anymore. But if you want to, I can run some more simulations with even less red and show the results in here. If some of you want to "play" with the simulation themselves I can also provide the code for download (I would have to delete some minor content from third parties, but the main objects are made by me and the UnrealEngine itself is free of charge; but you should have a newer graphics card when using it). Just drop a line.



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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Chimpman » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:20 pm

Wow, that's spectacular. I'm torn on the intensity of the red, but I agree that the first shot was probably too much. The cloud cover was a great touch as well. That's something that could greatly reduce visibility, but cloud coverage could change from day to day and on clear days you may still be able to see the entire Hollow World (which is fine I think - that's the way things work).

how different do things look if you are standing on the equator?
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:22 pm

Chimpman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:20 pm
cloud coverage could change from day to day and on clear days you may still be able to see the entire Hollow World (which is fine I think - that's the way things work).
how different do things look if you are standing on the equator?
Thanks!

First Video: Still on the pole, but with far better visibility (actually the clouds don´t hinder the visibility much. There is also a parameter "athmospheric fog", which is the main hindrance for vision and which I dramatically reduced). Turning thus that the world spine is roughly at the height of the head:

https://youtu.be/mD9lMgDv6xY


Second video: Standing on the equator, gaze following the world spine until the sun is in the center. Turning for 180° and going done again along the other side of the world spine. And I didn´t bother to correct the position of the flying continents for this. Alphatia is on the right place rather by incident:

https://youtu.be/r2vsBgYUh8Y


As you will notice the poles are not very well modelled, cause the projection is getting worse at the "end".
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Cthulhudrew » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:38 pm

I am finding these videos fascinating, and they certainly do help put some perspective onto things (literally).

One of the issues I think is going to be unavoidable regarding the colors is that I don't think the program (UnrealEngine in this case) can accurately simulate the depth of what goes on with water and light in the real world (and likely atmosphere). While it provides some demonstration of light and reflection within the parameters of its capability, as I understand how things work in the real world, water absorbs certain wavelengths of light (such as red) and doesn't just reflect them. So under a red sun, the earth's oceans would still appear predominantly blue, but UnrealEngine is looking at it as essentially a solid surface reflecting that light, and not absorbing it.

(I am not a scientist, and have only done limited reading on the subject matter, but this is my understanding of it.)
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Robin » Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:23 pm

As the others already said; spectacular.

I hope my words help thinking about issues.
Always difficult to do this as positive critisism, as I am always afraid others will be 'hurt' by it.
I myself welcome critisism on my mapping works.


On the possible misunderstanding; Light affects vegetation;
The problem to the HW Red sun, light and the living world is that the Nithian/Azcan HW canon clearly detailed a lush green forests and bright sands.
In Reality Red light makes everything darker, instead of lush...Plants need more Chlorophyl to be able to synthesise energy from red light than white light. This would make leaves darker to an almost black in your first attempt, and a dark green in the second atempt.
So you might not change the plants, the light itself does.

I don't know anything on Programs like you use, and am totally baffled by the speed and result.
I feel the 2nd result is way better and more HW realistic, maybe the 3rd is best. The 4th is maybe too mlight indeed.
It is as if the HW sun is red but gives more white light, than red to enable OW vegtation to survive, without too much changes.
The only explanation I can shed is that this red sun has a bright corona which gives the white light needed, while its red core reveals its color and sheds a faint reddish glow over the world.

I know this is very difficult.
In Reality if the Mystara Hollow World would exist, plants and even animals would have to adapt to it, while the spell of preservation prevents this, what limits the plants and animals living on them, and thus they would eventually die out, what is prevented by the very same spell.
All in all it is not the light but that frigging spell which disturbs all. OW plants and creatures would find it hard to survive in the HW and viseversa, and would thus adapt or become extinct.
It is as if these Immortals aren't that clever; making a reservation to prevent extinction while it hinders any adaptation which thus enhances extinction.
It is hard to understand that something seen as so general and unaffective as sunlight would have such great effects on life in general, yet still it does. (in my study I have had done several experiments to determine the best growing light spectrum revealing the effects as i described; adaptation or extinction...btw the best light for our vegetation is our somewhat yellowish white sunlight)
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:09 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:38 pm
but UnrealEngine is looking at it as essentially a solid surface reflecting that light, and not absorbing it.
Thanks for the feedback. Well to tell the truth, I have experimented with some "water material" in the engine, but rejected it as it didn´t blend in with the blue of the ocean on the map very well. So the blue ocean is just, as you already suspected, a blue surface that is lid by the virtual sun and probably isn´t reflecting the properties of real water very well.

Beneath is a picture of the scenery with water that is "programmed" to look like water. Though the programming is not from me and beyond my scope and I don´t really understand how these materials are programmed or do work. Thus I can´t really deny nor can I confirm that this "water" is reacting to light like it should be. As you said, lots of parameters and impressions of the view might be wrong, misleading or at least inprecise. And last but not least: There´s always magic, that may alter the scene at will.



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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:00 pm

Robin wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:23 pm
I hope my words help thinking about issues.
Always difficult to do this as positive critisism, as I am always afraid others will be 'hurt' by it.
I myself welcome critisism on my mapping works.
All comments are welcome and appreciated! And I promise not to feel hurt :)
Robin wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:23 pm
On the possible misunderstanding; Light affects vegetation;
The problem to the HW Red sun, light and the living world is that the Nithian/Azcan HW canon clearly detailed a lush green forests and bright sands.
In Reality Red light makes everything darker, instead of lush...Plants need more Chlorophyl to be able to synthesise energy from red light than white light. This would make leaves darker to an almost black in your first attempt, and a dark green in the second atempt.
So you might not change the plants, the light itself does.
This makes it more clear to me. You are arguing from the biological view. I was arguing from the view of physics, where red light added to green light results in yellow or orange light:
https://www.openprocessing.org/sketch/387993/

Robin wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:23 pm
I feel the 2nd result is way better and more HW realistic, maybe the 3rd is best. The 4th is maybe too mlight indeed.
I will try to stick with something in between 2nd and 3rd. Whenever you want some 3rd versions of a view, just drop me a note.

Robin wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:23 pm
In Reality if the Mystara Hollow World would exist, plants and even animals would have to adapt to it, while the spell of preservation prevents this, what limits the plants and animals living on them, and thus they would eventually die out, what is prevented by the very same spell.
All in all it is not the light but that frigging spell which disturbs all. OW plants and creatures would find it hard to survive in the HW and viseversa, and would thus adapt or become extinct.
It is as if these Immortals aren't that clever; making a reservation to prevent extinction while it hinders any adaptation which thus enhances extinction.
Well, that´s true, but probably neither the immortals (nor the authors) have to worry too much about our scientific arguments as they can always name magic to be the reason why everything works so well. But I can´t blame them, it´s a fantasy game with lots of labour put in and contradictions to real world scientific don´t really matter.
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Robin » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:19 pm

Glad you understand my biological principle on this. I totally agree with a physics view everything is a bit different. If you don't bring in the biological sense, processes and differences in this terrible diffficult equation everything will be indeed very different.
I am already astounded how far you brought it thusfar. respect.

The 3rd indeed feels best. it gives off just ebough reddish tone, the locals would name the sun a red sun, and it also allows green plants to remain green (a bit darker maybe, yet still). I thought the 4th was too light...not on the shedded light, but the color of the sun.
It would be the best one, if just the sun itself would be red as option 2 or maybe even 3

Yes I agree, I can't blame them either, even if some things are really off, as nobody knows all, let alone can infuse all to combine into a functional solution. Yet even magic would follow rules, not that we as non -magic adept would understand, they will reveal themselves in the process in reflecting to the existing rules equal to or world.
And indeed this Phantasy concept enables to create solutions for ideas and creations not fully made workable.

For example; the Hollow world is as per canon a pinhole gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire....and then it is shedding only a weak red light??? instead a yellow or white light being much more logical in a Plane of Fire. I always see The Plane of Fire (aka Energy) as being displayed as Red, dark with lava like flames shedding poor light instead of bright energy charged light. As if the Plane of Fire resembles more a Lower Outer Plane like Hell or Hades.
This always felt totally off to me.
Combining this to the pinhole to the Hollow world (which is described as being a stationary gate, totally forgetting to include the movement of the planet, but alas, you could say stationary INSIDE the Hollow World), this would shed a much further reduced in intensity (and thus energy, propagation to other life, etc).

Returning this to your awesome work; you actually proof in your hypothetical options the HW sun can't be truly red, while shedding white light which would be needed to sustain OW life without alterations. You also proofed another reason of the inconsistency caused by the Spell of Preservation.
All in all the light in the HW would be more lighter to sustain life as it was, yet with a vague reddish tone to it. The haze when looking up would reveal the vague redness of the sun...hence giving it its name..while overall it would give a almost normal light (equal to OW sunrise/sunset when lighr has to travel through a greater distance of air& moisture, breaking the white light of the sun itself to an orange or red glow....
So I can only have respect to your work...for you have proven reality is nice,, phatasy may be nicer, yet together they may combine into something awesome and understandible.
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by aklanda » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:36 pm

Thanks for the praise, Robin!
By the way: With what simulation was this wonderful picture made you just posted? Seems hyper-realistic to me... :)
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Re: Hollow World Perspective

Post by Robin » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:26 pm

aklanda wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:36 pm
Thanks for the praise, Robin!
By the way: With what simulation was this wonderful picture made you just posted? Seems hyper-realistic to me... :)
Well earned

Lol. hyper-realistic,... because it is reality...aren't used to that anymore?? ;)
Maybe it is a photo with a filter added or not I do not know. The picture is befitting though to the discussion.
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