WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Havard » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:44 pm

agathokles wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:41 pm
Shannon wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:17 pm
Well, every point you make about northern Darokin holds also for (southern?) Glantri, and Glantri gets 'round the conundrum of Barrick's being a duke (and, hey, he is a magic-user). Glantri also has many mountainous areas wherein an isolated alpine vale is easily placed.
Duke Hector Barrik is a Fighter... Thuder Rift's Barrik was a Magic User, but he is at most an ancestor of the Duke.

G
I'd make the Wizard a descendant. Perhaps he rebuilt the tower left behind when Hector Barrik's Castle was whisked away. Then, later that tower becomes abandoned and the location of the adventure Quest for the Silver Sword.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:47 pm

Havard wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:44 pm
agathokles wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:41 pm
Shannon wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:17 pm
Well, every point you make about northern Darokin holds also for (southern?) Glantri, and Glantri gets 'round the conundrum of Barrick's being a duke (and, hey, he is a magic-user). Glantri also has many mountainous areas wherein an isolated alpine vale is easily placed.
Duke Hector Barrik is a Fighter... Thuder Rift's Barrik was a Magic User, but he is at most an ancestor of the Duke.

G
I'd make the Wizard a descendant. Perhaps he rebuilt the tower left behind when Hector Barrik's Castle was whisked away. Then, later that tower becomes abandoned and the location of the adventure Quest for the Silver Sword.

-Havard
Or screw with everyone's heads and make the Wizard Hector's ancestor and place all of the TR adventures in the past of whatever country you want as a lead up to the Goblin Wars. Hector's castle gets removed to the HW, TR is completely destroyed in the GW and whatever country's past you placed it in can now come into being atop TR's ruins.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Havard » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:59 pm

Gravesguardian wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:47 pm
Or screw with everyone's heads and make the Wizard Hector's ancestor and place all of the TR adventures in the past of whatever country you want as a lead up to the Goblin Wars. Hector's castle gets removed to the HW, TR is completely destroyed in the GW and whatever country's past you placed it in can now come into being atop TR's ruins.
Heh,
it seems overly complicated for my tastes, but if it works best for someone's campaign, why not! :)

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:10 am

Havard wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:59 pm
Gravesguardian wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:47 pm
Or screw with everyone's heads and make the Wizard Hector's ancestor and place all of the TR adventures in the past of whatever country you want as a lead up to the Goblin Wars. Hector's castle gets removed to the HW, TR is completely destroyed in the GW and whatever country's past you placed it in can now come into being atop TR's ruins.
Heh,
it seems overly complicated for my tastes, but if it works best for someone's campaign, why not! :)

-Havard
One of my reason for that remark has to do with the size of Thunder Rift. We all know that mileage on the "canon" map is a blatant lie. At 21 miles West to East and 32 miles North to South, its way too small for all the adventures: since many of then actually do give travel distances. Sword and Shield, for instance, lists Avenal as being "a week of travel" from the PC's hometown (see pg. 6). The Campaign Setting Book says to "assume" walking 20 miles a day or riding 40 miles a day (see pg. 5). In another post me and someone else calculated that the proper size for TR is roughly 216 North to South by 144 miles East to West; which as they pointed out: makes Thunder Rift larger than Karameikos. Unless you place TR in the past of an already existing country, there is no room in the Known World for it to fit.

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Havard » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:20 am

Gravesguardian wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:10 am
One of my reason for that remark has to do with the size of Thunder Rift. We all know that mileage on the "canon" map is a blatant lie. At 21 miles West to East and 32 miles North to South, its way too small for all the adventures: since many of then actually do give travel distances. Sword and Shield, for instance, lists Avenal as being "a week of travel" from the PC's hometown (see pg. 6). The Campaign Setting Book says to "assume" walking 20 miles a day or riding 40 miles a day (see pg. 5). In another post me and someone else calculated that the proper size for TR is roughly 216 North to South by 144 miles East to West; which as they pointed out: makes Thunder Rift larger than Karameikos. Unless you place TR in the past of an already existing country, there is no room in the Known World for it to fit.
I think you can make Thunder Rift as small or large as your campaign needs it to be.

There are a few options for a larger Thunder Rift that have been suggested
1) Setting TR in the past (as per your suggestion)
2) TR is a separate plane or micro-dimension
3) Thunder Rift exists outside the Known World, perhaps even on another continent like Skothar.

To me the problem with all of the above is that they make Thunder Rift less accessible to DMs because most DMs will prefer to run their campaigns in the Known World. One important goal for my work on Thunder Rift has been to persuade other fans that Thunder Rift is a relevant mini-setting that Mystara fans should consider using, not as an alternative to Mystara, but as an integral part of Mystara. Having the possibility for characters to transition between Thunder Rift and the Known World is important in that sense. Giving Thunder Rift an achor in the Hollow World via WotES also helps in this regard.

But placing Thunder Rift in the Known World does impose some limitations to the setting itself (like the size issue). I make TR the size of two 24 mile hexes. But each DM needs to decide for himself if those limitations are useful for him or her or if a different setup is more useful.

-Havard

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:32 pm

another possible reason to set TR adventures in the past: Most folks seems to set the Sword vs. Wand War as ending 30 years before the adventures take place, which would help account for the low population numbers; BUT it would also account for the events leading up to WotES. With the SvW War ending 30 years ago, human and demi-human populations are at an all time low. Goblinoids choose this oppurtunity to erupt from their scattered lairs to overwhelm the small groups of survivors of the SvW War. While some dwarves seal themselves in Hearth-Home to survive and some elves hide deep in their forest, the rest of the surface population is on the brink of being utterly wiped out, so Ka saves their final remnant and places it in the HW.

Now, none of that helps place TR in the Known World; but, Mystara canon "perhaps" does:

1700 BC: Elves find artifact of Blackmoor in the Broken Lands and trigger a cataclysm which buries the Horde. Loark dies, the remains of the horde break apart. Elves driven out of Glantri by local cataclysms.

What if "the Broken Lands" was just another name for Thunder Rift and the Riftian elves had been using the artifact as a clan relic; but, when the hordes (Goblinoids) overran the Rift, they unknowingly trigger the artifacts full power, wiping out TR and truly creating the Broken Lands?

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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Havard » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:31 pm

Gravesguardian wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:32 pm
another possible reason to set TR adventures in the past: Most folks seems to set the Sword vs. Wand War as ending 30 years before the adventures take place, which would help account for the low population numbers; BUT it would also account for the events leading up to WotES. With the SvW War ending 30 years ago, human and demi-human populations are at an all time low. Goblinoids choose this oppurtunity to erupt from their scattered lairs to overwhelm the small groups of survivors of the SvW War. While some dwarves seal themselves in Hearth-Home to survive and some elves hide deep in their forest, the rest of the surface population is on the brink of being utterly wiped out, so Ka saves their final remnant and places it in the HW.
This theory is not my favorite at this point, but worth exploring all the same. You bring in some very interesting elements Gravesguardian!

Perhaps we should explore each of the different takes on Thunder Rift in their own threads?

-Havard

Aliases: Håvard Frosta, Havard Blackmoor, Blackmoorian, Dragon Turtle etc
Where to find me on the Web
The Comeback Inn - My Blackmoor Forum
The Blackmoor Blog
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
My Articles at the Vaults of Pandius
Moderator of the Mystara, Blackmoor and Thunder Rift forums.
My moderator voice is
GREEN.

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Gravesguardian
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Re: WotES - Location of Barrik's Castle

Post by Gravesguardian » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:34 pm

Havard wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:31 pm
Gravesguardian wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:32 pm
another possible reason to set TR adventures in the past: Most folks seems to set the Sword vs. Wand War as ending 30 years before the adventures take place, which would help account for the low population numbers; BUT it would also account for the events leading up to WotES. With the SvW War ending 30 years ago, human and demi-human populations are at an all time low. Goblinoids choose this oppurtunity to erupt from their scattered lairs to overwhelm the small groups of survivors of the SvW War. While some dwarves seal themselves in Hearth-Home to survive and some elves hide deep in their forest, the rest of the surface population is on the brink of being utterly wiped out, so Ka saves their final remnant and places it in the HW.
This theory is not my favorite at this point, but worth exploring all the same. You bring in some very interesting elements Gravesguardian!

Perhaps we should explore each of the different takes on Thunder Rift in their own threads?

-Havard
Just spitballing ideas to try and help folks place Barrik's Castle in the Known World. If we ignore any possible connection to TR, then Barrik's Castle could've been located just about anywhere in the KW. (This is me trying to get the thread back on track, since this is about the Castle itself and not TR.)

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