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Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated map

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:42 pm
by Birchbeer
It looks like in the Hollow World the Blacklore Elves are close to; if not in the; Polar opening. So maybe we do have a civilization stuck on the polar opening;) Has this been noticed before? Someone postulated it could be tropical in certain areas there, so let's run with that though experiment.

Just imagine it, the PC's trek through the opening, no magic is working. It's a tropical oasis where no magic works (except immortal magic) and there's these weird elves, who don't fear death and do crazy things all day. (Zardoz, but with Elves.) It would still pretty much marginalize them, make them even more remote and natives of the outer or hollow world would think the PC's are nuts when they come back with stories of the place.

Then again, we could just move the Blacklore Elves to some similarly hard to trek to area not within the poles, a valley covered in perpetual fog. Or, peeps could ignore them altogether. I honestly see them as something there just to display the oddity of the past, they are not really movers or shakers within the Hollow World. (Which is kind of a shame, because it would be cool if they had more of an impact.)

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:54 pm
by Thorf
There are actually two ways to go with this. It all hinges on where you define 90 degrees latitude as being in the Hollow World. The official maps place it at the beginning of the curve to the Outer World rather than at the point where the Hollow World south pole would be if it weren't for the polar opening. The polar opening maps show the same thing. For the Outer World, the polar opening maps show 90 degrees Outer World as being at the beginning of the lip, but then they place the clipped terrain from the Master Set map in the opening.

How to solve this problem? It's quite a quandary. The map of Iciria can't be compressed or expanded north-south because the hex maps based on it are actually a very good fit already. So any scaling would also affect the maps. On the other hand, we almost certainly have some flexibility on the actual dimensions of the Hollow World, so it could be solved just by changing the dimensions. That would mean changing the currently marked latitudes so that the current 90 degrees for the beginning of the lip becomes whatever that latitude actually is (likely somewhere between 65 to 75). But now that I think about it, renumbering the latitudes would have some repercussions for my reprojected maps, because the map would be squeezed north-south.

This leaves the other possibility, which is as you said placing the extremes of the map inside the opening. In this case, half the opening would contain Outer World land, the other half Hollow World land. If that's not enough, it may even be possible to have these spaces overlapping each other - or we could simply shrink the extreme north and south of each map so that it fits on the curve. These ideas are attractive because they push any distortion into the polar openings and the extreme north and south lands, which are all distorted already anyway, and leave the vast majority of both worlds unchanged.

My vote would be for the second option, even if it means putting the Blacklore Elves inside the polar opening.

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:04 pm
by Birchbeer
I too favor them in the polar opening also. This way we'd have 1 unique culture there.

Though the anti-magic affect could have some issues. Either it magic doesn't work, and the elves don't care/know (which fits their culture) or there is some kind of localized magic bubble (To allow for minor elven magics). In either case the automatons work as listed because they're enchanted by immortals whose magic isn't affected.

In either case one interesting subplot for visiting there. There's libraries there, which most of the elves don't care about (the elves rather go and play games on computers, visit "elfbook", whatever ;) . But for PC's who are confronted with an issue concerning the radiance -- researching ways to fix it (magic drain or better understand the problem), new spells (well really really old lost spells) or knowledge (The gnomes in Serraine would pay a boatload for some of the schematics within)... it's there. Maybe add in a few automaton librarians who would prevent books from leaving... and voila. A reason to go there.


(edited for readability)

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:32 pm
by Ashtagon
Birchbeer wrote:...In either case one interesting subplot for visiting there. There's libraries there, which most of the elves don't care about (the elves rather go and play games on computers, visit "elfbook", whatever ;) ...
You mean Feys'book, yes?

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:45 pm
by Birchbeer
Excellent Ashtagon :lol:

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:01 pm
by Chimpman
Birchbeer wrote:Though the anti-magic affect could have some issues. Either it magic doesn't work, and the elves don't care/know (which fits their culture) or there is some kind of localized magic bubble (To allow for minor elven magics). In either case the automatons work as listed because they're enchanted by immortals whose magic isn't affected.
Actually, I think this fits perfectly. If the elves are living inside of a magic enabled bubble inside of the anti-magic polar opening, then their technomagic artifacts might actually be real. It's not that they stop working when taken from the valley, it's that they enter an anti-magic area. That would mean that if someone actually brought the elven artifacts into the Hollow World (or outer world) they would start working again.

As an immortal, I would have chosen this location for the Blacklore on purpose - it means the immortals wouldn't need to expend any extra magic to keep the Blacklore contained, or to modify their equipment... they would be using a naturally occurring phenomenon to keep the elves isolated (only having to enable magic in a small bubble - which might not be an easy task in itself).

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:59 pm
by ripvanwormer
Maybe they're powered by anti-magic, instead of magic. So they would work inside another anti-magic area, but won't work inside a magical area like the Outer or Hollow World.

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:48 am
by Chimpman
ripvanwormer wrote:Maybe they're powered by anti-magic, instead of magic. So they would work inside another anti-magic area, but won't work inside a magical area like the Outer or Hollow World.
Ohhh... that's a very interesting idea... :mrgreen:

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:55 pm
by Birchbeer
Another possible inspiration for the Blacklore Elves is Logan's Run.. It struck me that there should/could be rampant population growth but there isn't. So maybe they have Carousel and peeps sacrifice their life at a certain age...

I agree the idea of a localized bubble would limit the spread of magic. However, I don't think it's anti-magic that runs the machines... maybe antimagic allows the machines to run as normal tech without the localized interference of Mystara's magic field (if such a thing exists).

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:46 am
by Cthulhudrew
Birchbeer wrote:I agree the idea of a localized bubble would limit the spread of magic. However, I don't think it's anti-magic that runs the machines... maybe antimagic allows the machines to run as normal tech without the localized interference of Mystara's magic field (if such a thing exists).
Could be- it has been speculated before that the reason for Blackmoor's destruction might have been caused by some kind of disastrous interaction between magic and technology. Come to think of it, I believe the Beagle is specifically noted to have crash landed on Mystara due to the failure of its engines when they encountered Mystara's magical field (in DA3).

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:52 pm
by Birchbeer
So here's a different line of explaining magical situation at the polar openings: Instead of people saying the poles have an anti-magic field in place; we could just say the Poles LACK a magic field.

However, there is a problem with that. The machines created by the Blackmoor culture and elves, were technomagic. They'd need a little bit of both magic and tech to work correctly. Unless, of course, the immortals scooped up some of the old, malfunctioning Beagles bits (either items previously stolen, or traveled back in time to procure, or recreated from scratch) and then placed in the valley.

I don't have the Hollow World Manual here, but which Immortals decided to save them? I ask because, a lot of the immortals probably hate technomagic and it would have to be a really open minded one to allow the raw tech to exist again knowing it could pave the way to another calamity.

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:20 pm
by Havard
Birchbeer wrote:I don't have the Hollow World Manual here, but which Immortals decided to save them? I ask because, a lot of the immortals probably hate technomagic and it would have to be a really open minded one to allow the raw tech to exist again knowing it could pave the way to another calamity.
Writing off memory here, but Ka and Korotiku were definately involved :)

-Havard

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:39 pm
by Carillion
Here's the relevant info on the Blacklore Elves:

"Ka the Preserver decided they (Blacklore elves) should be preserved as a culture. But this lead to a sticky choice: how could he preserve their culture without preserving their machines? And how could he preserve their machines without letting them spread through the Hollow World?

He decided to cheat. Since the elves no longer knew any of the science that had built the machines, Ka magically altered the machines to make them into fakes. He enchanted a distant valley in the Hollow World with a special field of magic, which would power the false technology. Removed from that valley, these devices would not, and could not, ever work"

Hollow World Dungeon Masters sourcebook, p39

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:52 am
by hyrieus
"Ka the Preserver decided they (Blacklore elves) should be preserved as a culture. But this lead to a sticky choice: how could he preserve their culture without preserving their machines? And how could he preserve their machines without letting them spread through the Hollow World?

He decided to cheat. Since the elves no longer knew any of the science that had built the machines, Ka magically altered the machines to make them into fakes. He enchanted a distant valley in the Hollow World with a special field of magic, which would power the false technology. Removed from that valley, these devices would not, and could not, ever work"
How about twisting this a bit so it's history as most immortals know it, in truth the machines are powered by an artifact that doesn't even originate in Mystaras' own dimension, the immortals themselves don't even know how it operates. They can't destroy it and it allows technology to operate in an area surrounding it, the Heirarchs keep this hidden from lesser ranked immortals. This adds another layer of mystery to the Blacklore Elves and opens up other plot opportunites, prehaps if the PCs tinker with it they may find themselves thrust into the dimension where it originated maybe aboard the Warden or a Mutant Future world.

Re: Blacklore Elves location in relation to Thorf's updated

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:51 am
by yellowdingo
So when the Magic fails (like on the last day of the Mystaran Year aka Klarmont 28) the Engines would function outside the zone because the anti-magic zone now encompasses the world.