Hadozee in Savage Coast? NOPE it's Neshezu! :-)

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Hadozee in Savage Coast? NOPE it's Neshezu! :-)

Postby Big Mac » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:59 pm

I was just having a chat with Havard and he told me that Savage Coast had Hadozee in it! My eyes nearly popped out of my head, as Hadozee are a Spelljammer race?

What products were they included in?

What is the backstory of the Hadozee in Savage Coast?

How big a faction are they in the area?

Are they a monster race in Savage Coast or a playable race?

EDIT: It turns out this was a misake and that there are no Hadozee in Savage Coast, but you might enjoy the conversation about the Neshezu. ;)
Last edited by Big Mac on Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Cthulhudrew » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:07 pm

I've never seen anything about the Hadozee in the Savage Coast. Perhaps he's thinking of the Neshezu, which is an evil piratical simian-orc race that is listed in the Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium?

They did appear as a playable race in the 3E supplement Stormwrack (which is not Mystara or Savage Coast related), and IIRC they are basically the same thing as the Yazirians from Star Frontiers.

EDITED to add: There are also the Phanatons, which are similar to the Hadozee in that they are simian-like creatures with membrane-like skin between their arms and legs that allows them to glide. Phanatons are much smaller though, and raccoon-faced, and are strictly arboreal- they are not seafarers. The neshezu aren't seafarers, either, but more like arboreal pirates.
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Havard » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:40 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:I've never seen anything about the Hadozee in the Savage Coast. Perhaps he's thinking of the Neshezu, which is an evil piratical simian-orc race that is listed in the Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium?

They did appear as a playable race in the 3E supplement Stormwrack (which is not Mystara or Savage Coast related), and IIRC they are basically the same thing as the Yazirians from Star Frontiers.

EDITED to add: There are also the Phanatons, which are similar to the Hadozee in that they are simian-like creatures with membrane-like skin between their arms and legs that allows them to glide. Phanatons are much smaller though, and raccoon-faced, and are strictly arboreal- they are not seafarers. The neshezu aren't seafarers, either, but more like arboreal pirates.


Ooops, looks like I was indeed confusing the Hadozee and the Neshezu. :oops:

Its a bit annoying that they Neshezu are evil. I would love to have them as PCs in a Savage Coast campaign :)

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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby night_druid » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:03 pm

Havard wrote:Ooops, looks like I was indeed confusing the Hadozee and the Neshezu. :oops:

Its a bit annoying that they Neshezu are evil. I would love to have them as PCs in a Savage Coast campaign :)


I thought Mystara races were merely Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic... :P
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Havard » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:12 pm

night_druid wrote:I thought Mystara races were merely Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic... :P


Yes and no. The Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium was written for AD&D2nd Edition and several of the races and creatures there had not previously appeared in BECMI sources.

The AD&D Mystara Monstrous Compendium introduced a strange system for dragons where the first alignment (Law-Chaos) was fixed and the second one varied.

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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby NPCDave » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:22 pm

The first thing I think of when I think about the Neshezu is...who is supplying them with wheellock pistols? Those come from all the way over from Cimarron County, along with powder and shot. And how is it that the Herathians haven't eradicated them or pushed them out of the forests?
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Cthulhudrew » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:58 pm

night_druid wrote:I thought Mystara races were merely Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic... :P


I'm guessing this is a reference to the recent FB conversation thread? :lol:

In any event, while there was traditionally that axis, there were some notable exceptions where moral inclinations towards good or evil were explicitly pointed out in text, regardless of their L/N/C bent. The Undine and Efreet come to mind, as does the Hydrax (the first Chaotic with good tendencies, the latter two Lawful but notably evil). Several others as well.
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Cthulhudrew » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:02 pm

NPCDave wrote:The first thing I think of when I think about the Neshezu is...who is supplying them with wheellock pistols? Those come from all the way over from Cimarron County, along with powder and shot. And how is it that the Herathians haven't eradicated them or pushed them out of the forests?


That's a good question. Off the top of my head, I'd think perhaps they are getting them in trade with the Vilaverdan colony of Terra Leaoca. Either directly with the colonial ruler (don't recall his title), or perhaps through illicit trade with less than savory folk there (perhaps with a nod and wink from the colonial governor). IIRC, there is a prison there, so maybe there are also pirates and smugglers who the Neshezu trade with. Certainly their piratical leanings- clothing and weaponry- lead to some kind of connection with pirates.
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Havard » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:04 pm

Anyone else thinking the Neshezu might originally be from Davania?

The description talks about their ancestors having a different culture that was more patriarchal.

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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Big Mac » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:54 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:I've never seen anything about the Hadozee in the Savage Coast. Perhaps he's thinking of the Neshezu, which is an evil piratical simian-orc race that is listed in the Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium?


The Neshezu sound a bit more like Spelljammer's Grommam. They are five feet tall ape-men who live in trees. :)

Cthulhudrew wrote:They did appear as a playable race in the 3E supplement Stormwrack (which is not Mystara or Savage Coast related), and IIRC they are basically the same thing as the Yazirians from Star Frontiers.


Thanks. I have heard of Hadozee being in Stormwrack. I've also heard about the Yazirians, from Star Frontiers. (There are two other Star Frontier races that got turned into Spelljammer monsters.) The Yazirians also got turned into the Shadowpeople in Dragonlance.

Cthulhudrew wrote:EDITED to add: There are also the Phanatons, which are similar to the Hadozee in that they are simian-like creatures with membrane-like skin between their arms and legs that allows them to glide. Phanatons are much smaller though, and raccoon-faced, and are strictly arboreal- they are not seafarers. The neshezu aren't seafarers, either, but more like arboreal pirates.


Havard did mention the Phanatons! That's what got me asking questions, as I thought that they might be related to Hadozee.

What is an "arboreal pirate"? Is that some sort of land pirate?
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Big Mac » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:59 pm

Havard wrote:Ooops, looks like I was indeed confusing the Hadozee and the Neshezu. :oops:


So, did you think that the Neshezu were from Spelljammer? :?

Havard wrote:Its a bit annoying that they Neshezu are evil. I would love to have them as PCs in a Savage Coast campaign :)


Maybe it's just the ones in the Savage Coast area that are evil.
Last edited by Big Mac on Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Big Mac » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:03 am

Havard wrote:
night_druid wrote:I thought Mystara races were merely Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic... :P


Yes and no. The Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium was written for AD&D2nd Edition and several of the races and creatures there had not previously appeared in BECMI sources.


Have all the Mystara monsters been "converted" to the Lawful-to-Chaotic and Good-to-Evil system by the AD&D products?

Havard wrote:The AD&D Mystara Monstrous Compendium introduced a strange system for dragons where the first alignment (Law-Chaos) was fixed and the second one varied.


That actually sounds like it could be fun. There are dragons in Spelljammer that are either good or evil. You never know what you are going to get, if your PCs meet one. I'm guessing this would do the same for all dragons in Mystara.
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Big Mac » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:24 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:
NPCDave wrote:The first thing I think of when I think about the Neshezu is...who is supplying them with wheellock pistols? Those come from all the way over from Cimarron County, along with powder and shot. And how is it that the Herathians haven't eradicated them or pushed them out of the forests?


That's a good question. Off the top of my head, I'd think perhaps they are getting them in trade with the Vilaverdan colony of Terra Leaoca. Either directly with the colonial ruler (don't recall his title), or perhaps through illicit trade with less than savory folk there (perhaps with a nod and wink from the colonial governor). IIRC, there is a prison there, so maybe there are also pirates and smugglers who the Neshezu trade with. Certainly their piratical leanings- clothing and weaponry- lead to some kind of connection with pirates.


They have starwheel pistols in Spellammer.

Are there many places that have wheellock pistols in Mystara?

There is a Spelljammer/Mystara adventure in one of the D&D starter sets, that features a giff chasing a neogi, but I thought that was set somewhere in Karameikos, otherwise I'd suggest that maybe guns were coming in from whatever Mystara location that adventure was located in.
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Angel Tarragon » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:27 am

Big Mac wrote:What is an "arboreal pirate"? Is that some sort of land pirate?

Tree pirates. :o
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby night_druid » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:46 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:
night_druid wrote:I thought Mystara races were merely Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic... :P


I'm guessing this is a reference to the recent FB conversation thread? :lol:


Not really; wasn't aware of any FB conversation ;) But interesting that the G-N-E axis crept into Mystara before it got converted to 2e.
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby night_druid » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:58 am

Big Mac wrote:Thanks. I have heard of Hadozee being in Stormwrack. I've also heard about the Yazirians, from Star Frontiers. (There are two other Star Frontier races that got turned into Spelljammer monsters.) The Yazirians also got turned into the Shadowpeople in Dragonlance.


Four, BM. Four races were imported to SJ from Star Frontiers (hadozee, rastipede, plasmoids, and syllax).

What is an "arboreal pirate"? Is that some sort of land pirate?


I'd assume one that travel by tree.
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Cthulhudrew » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:17 am

Big Mac wrote:What is an "arboreal pirate"? Is that some sort of land pirate?


Just a term that I made up for them. The way they are described in the material is one of a kind of piratical culture, with their cutlasses and wheellock pistols and organization, but they aren't seafarers and live on land in trees. So yeah, tree/land pirates, essentially.

Big Mac wrote:Are there many places that have wheellock pistols in Mystara?


None, actually. Canonically, they only exist along the Savage Coast, and even then only with the advent of 2E and the Red Steel campaign setting. Prior to that, in BECMI, they had hand crossbows that filled in the role of pistols.

night_druid wrote:Not really; wasn't aware of any FB conversation ;) But interesting that the G-N-E axis crept into Mystara before it got converted to 2e.


Ah- yeah there was a recent discussion on FB- I think in the Classic Dnd group or BECMI or something, about it. Basically the question was whether Good and Lawful and Chaotic and Evil were one and the same in BECMI, and I think the consensus was largely that they usually were, but there were lots of corner cases where it wasn't that straightforward, such as the ones that I mentioned which were explicitly not. IIRC, I think the definitions of the alignments in both the Moldvay and Mentzer versions were pretty much that as well, that they most often conformed to those ideas, but not exclusively. (Veering a little OT here, so if anyone wants to continue this discussion, we can break it off into another thread.)
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Cthulhudrew » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:25 am

On the topic of the Hadozee and Yazirians and their relatives in different editions, I almost wonder if the Cryion of Mystara might be a related species? Maybe descendants of hadozee/yazirians who ended up in the arctic regions of Mystara and evolved somewhat from there? Their actual inspiration was based on a novel, as I recall, and came independently of the Yazirians of Star Frontiers, but they could be explained as being related creatures.

EDIT: Yes, they're supposed to be batfolk as opposed to simianfolk with membrane wings, but still... :D
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Big Mac » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:11 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Big Mac wrote:What is an "arboreal pirate"? Is that some sort of land pirate?


Just a term that I made up for them. The way they are described in the material is one of a kind of piratical culture, with their cutlasses and wheellock pistols and organization, but they aren't seafarers and live on land in trees. So yeah, tree/land pirates, essentially.


There were actually about four people using the term, when I looked it up on Google, but nobody explained it. I guess the other people made it up too (unless you wrote all those other pages). :)

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Are there many places that have wheellock pistols in Mystara?


None, actually. Canonically, they only exist along the Savage Coast, and even then only with the advent of 2E and the Red Steel campaign setting. Prior to that, in BECMI, they had hand crossbows that filled in the role of pistols.


Interesting. I know there is one type of firearm in the 2e PHB, so it's obvious that they wanted firearms to be available in some settings. I wonder why they were added to Savage Coast. Is there anything in the Savage Coast timeline about guns being invented? Did the Neshezu invent them?
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast?

Postby Cthulhudrew » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:14 pm

Big Mac wrote:There were actually about four people using the term, when I looked it up on Google, but nobody explained it. I guess the other people made it up too (unless you wrote all those other pages). :)


Definitely not me! I didn't realize there were others using that term. Hmm... now I'm curious in what context. Will probably end up googling it myself! :lol:

Cthulhudrew wrote:Interesting. I know there is one type of firearm in the 2e PHB, so it's obvious that they wanted firearms to be available in some settings. I wonder why they were added to Savage Coast. Is there anything in the Savage Coast timeline about guns being invented? Did the Neshezu invent them?


There is- I don't have the actual quotes handy, but a couple of the magical properties of the Savage Coast- vermeil and steel seed- when combined alchemically created smokepowder; which is the 2E equivalent of black powder/gunpowder. Two dwarves then created a firearm that utilized smokepowder as a firing agent. (Those two dwarves, notably, are the same ones that Bruce Heard had as the creators of the hand-crossbow/pistol equivalent in the pre-2E era. Their names were something like Smithy and Westron, which were obvious parodies of Smith and Wesson- hence why they were probably retained as the developers of the firearm in 2E.)

As for the whys of the Savage Coast- when it was initially introduced in module X9 by the Rasmussens, it was a fairly generic setting. Essentially a wilderness module, with the PCs playing the role of explorers in undiscovered country. When Bruce Heard later developed it, he added more cultures and civilizations. The Savage Coast nations, chiefly, were based around the Age of Exploration era Spain and Portugal (and one notable territory based around the concept of the Old West). Firearms and swashbuckling and pirates were all very much connected with at least several of the time frames/cultures involved, so I think when they switched to AD&D- which as you note, had included some basic rules for firearms- the decision was made to "run with it" and include them. It probably was also to kind of distinguish it from other settings. At that point, only the Realms and Spelljammer really made much use of firearms in the settings (and it was very limited- and as I recall, controversial- in the Realms).

To bring things back around a bit to the Neshezu, the timeline for the introduction of smokepowder in the Savage Coast is fairly recent, as I recall, which always bothered me. It was only something like 30 or 40 years from the campaign "present day" and they already had wheellock pistols invented (an invention that took centuries in the RW from the era of discovery of gunpowder).

So that means the "gun culture" of the Neshezu is very recent. Given that their matriarchy of poison is supposed to be a relatively recent phenomenon, as well, I could see where maybe the "gun culture" is a way of the males of the Neshezu attempting to regain the control and direction of the tribes.
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast? NOPE it's Neshezu! :-)

Postby NPCDave » Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:35 am

Just an FYI, if anyone is looking for great Yazirian minis, you can find them here...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/97 ... t-simian-x
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Re: Hadozee in Savage Coast? NOPE it's Neshezu! :-)

Postby Chimpman » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:51 am

Well... there's at least one hadozee in the Savage Coast ;)
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