[AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

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[AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Havard » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:25 pm

Assuming the Orc's Head Peninsula books had been published, what would have come next for the Savage Coast AD&D line?

So far we have:
Boxed Sets:
Red Steel Boxed Set
Savage Baronies Boxed Set

Novels:
The Black Vessel

Electronic Downloads:
Savage Coast Campaign book (Reprint of the Red Steel and Savage Baronies books)
Savage Coast: Orcs Head Campaign Book
Savage Coast Monsterous Manual Appendix

Magazine Articles:
En Garde (Dragon Magazine 232)
Sorcerous Sixguns (Dragon Magazine 232)
Lupins of Mystara (Dragon Magazine #237)
Rakasta of Mystara (Dragon Magazine #247)
Tortles of Mystara (Dragon Magazine Vapourware - Never published) - see here for some ideas for what that article may have covered.


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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by RobJN » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:47 pm

I don't recall whether or not they went into much detail on the Enduks and Ee'ar in Orc's Head, but I'd like to have seen a treatment of the Winged Kingdoms of the Arm of the Immortals.
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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:03 pm

Probably something dealing with the other nations of the Savage Coast, notably Robrenn, Eusdria, Renardy, and Bellayne. They might have squeezed Herath in there, too.

Then, I imagine the Squamous nations (Croc-men, lizardmen, and cay-men), the Phanatons, and the Chameleon men would have gotten a supplement.

I'd have much rather seen more in-depth gazetteers on each individual nation myself, though.
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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Dave L » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:31 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote: I'd have much rather seen more in-depth gazetteers on each individual nation myself, though.
In-depth gets my vote too. :)

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by agathokles » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:10 pm

Enduks and Ee'ar were covered in the Orc's Head. The level of detail of Orc's Head is more or less the same as that of the Savage Coast campaign book, though, so Orc's Head sort of completes the Savage Coast itself. I'd say that Hule and the Gulf City-States are probably the areas that were detailed less. Specifically, the Savage Coast Campaign Book gives some ideas on how to build Hulean characters in the absence of a specific book -- which might or might be related to the idea of publishing a sourcebook for Hule.

Also, the Tortle vaporware article mentioned in the other thread would have been useful.

Finally, Suma'a and Gombar were left undetailed, but I doubt these nations alone could have supported an entire book -- maybe something including the whole Arm of the Immortal?

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Eric Anondson » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:55 am

I would have loved some more coverage of the humanoid tribes of the interior and the lands they now inhabit.
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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Havard » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:57 pm

agathokles wrote:Enduks and Ee'ar were covered in the Orc's Head. The level of detail of Orc's Head is more or less the same as that of the Savage Coast campaign book, though, so Orc's Head sort of completes the Savage Coast itself. I'd say that Hule and the Gulf City-States are probably the areas that were detailed less. Specifically, the Savage Coast Campaign Book gives some ideas on how to build Hulean characters in the absence of a specific book -- which might or might be related to the idea of publishing a sourcebook for Hule.
As mentioned elsewhere, are Hule and the City States part of the Savage Coast? If so, where does the border go? Not that I would mind seeing such products ofcourse! :)
Also, the Tortle vaporware article mentioned in the other thread would have been useful.
Indeed! I did have a plan about trying to make at least a skeleton of such an article with subraces, bloodlines and geographical references, but it kind of stranded...
Finally, Suma'a and Gombar were left undetailed, but I doubt these nations alone could have supported an entire book -- maybe something including the whole Arm of the Immortal?
If something on the entire Arm of the Immortal is detailed, maybe we would also see a kingdom of the Krolli, the winged lizardmen from the SCMC said to live in that region?

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BTW, where can I read more about Suma'a and Gombar (or references?)

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by agathokles » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:49 pm

Havard wrote: As mentioned elsewhere, are Hule and the City States part of the Savage Coast? If so, where does the border go? Not that I would mind seeing such products ofcourse! :)
Both lie partially in the Haze. Hule is not part of the SC, but part of the SC is within Hule.
Indeed! I did have a plan about trying to make at least a skeleton of such an article with subraces, bloodlines and geographical references, but it kind of stranded...
Well, if you ever decide to go on, I'll be interested in reading it :D
BTW, where can I read more about Suma'a and Gombar (or references?)
The VotPA article on the Enduks. It's narrated from the point of view of a Gombarian Ogre-kin merchant.

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Tim Beach » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:44 pm

I'm reasonably sure I still have the proposal for the "full-line" option for publishing Savage Coast -- that is, the 6-12 product schedule which TSR would have gone with had the boxed sets appeared popular enough to get them to support a full line.

I'll see if I can find it, and I'll post the whole thing if I do.

Tim Beach

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Eric Anondson » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:56 am

Nice to see Mr Beach pop in!

Just wanted to take the moment to say that the second Gen Con I attended, walking through the Castle, I saw a demo of Red Steel being played. It looked really cool so I sat down to play the next table, I may be misremembering but I swear it was Tim himself who was running the demo. I remember vividly the tavern where one of the party members swung their whip out to the chandelier above the taproom and swung down to safety from the balcony where he was trapped. Bar fights . . . mmm mmm . . . :) I was hooked and went out and bought it when I got home.

[Late Edit]Oh, I also can't wait to see the list Tim hopefully can find! :D
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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by agathokles » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:04 am

Tim Beach wrote:I'm reasonably sure I still have the proposal for the "full-line" option for publishing Savage Coast -- that is, the 6-12 product schedule which TSR would have gone with had the boxed sets appeared popular enough to get them to support a full line.

I'll see if I can find it, and I'll post the whole thing if I do.
Welcome, Tim!

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Hugin » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:39 pm

Good to have you here, Tim. If you're able to find and post that proposal, we'd be very appreciative. Perhaps it may spark some fan projects to see those products created?

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Havard » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:53 pm

Tim Beach wrote:I'm reasonably sure I still have the proposal for the "full-line" option for publishing Savage Coast -- that is, the 6-12 product schedule which TSR would have gone with had the boxed sets appeared popular enough to get them to support a full line.

I'll see if I can find it, and I'll post the whole thing if I do.
Tim Beach, wow, welcome to the Piazza! :)

I would be very interested in seeing your ideas. It is cool that you had proposet a full line, I wish it could have come true.

GP: Maybe you could offer Tim a sticky Q&A thread if he is interested?

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by agathokles » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:02 pm

Havard wrote: Tim Beach, wow, welcome to the Piazza! :)

I would be very interested in seeing your ideas. It is cool that you had proposet a full line, I wish it could have come true.

GP: Maybe you could offer Tim a sticky Q&A thread if he is interested?
Sure! It would be very useful.

GP

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Tim Beach » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:56 pm

A quick couple of things:
Eric, yes, it may have been me who ran the demo at GenCon -- your name seems really familiar to me.

Um ... excuse my ignorance, but what's a "sticky Q&A thread"? (I get the "Q&A" and "thread" -- but why/how is it "sticky"?)

And the supplement list:
I couldn't find my proposal -- I almost certainly have it somewhere, but it was 15 years ago -- but I did find two other documents: one has a list of proposed assignments for in-house designers, and another has my handwritten notes in response to that list (that is, what parts I was wanting to grab for myself). The handwritten list has dates that I think were turnover dates, so the actual publication schedule could have been different.

So, here is the list, from January or February of 1995:

Red Steel Campaign (revised) - 256 pages - my assignment
Orc's Head Peninsula - 96 pages - freelance (I would review)
Champions of the Savage Coast - 128 pages (assigned to Jean Rabe, but I wanted it)
Red Steel Monstrous Compendium - 128 pages (assigned to freelance, but I wanted it)
Book of the Inheritors - 128 pages (assigned to me, with some freelance)
Great Hule - probably 128 pages (assigned half to me, half to freelance)
another book (maybe Slagovich) - 96 pages (assigned to me)

I think it was a 2-year schedule, to go through the end of 1996, with 3-4 releases per year, in more of a "prestige" size -- no small releases.
What was inside these probably needs little explanation -- but here goes anyway. :)
The campaign book, of course, merged the two Red Steel releases, added back in the races and kits and other campaign details I'd had to cut, and included Panache.
Orc's Head would focus on that area, and I think we had talked about starting the Grand Campaign (more in a moment) there.
"Champions" kind of sounds like Champions of Mystara. I don't remember exactly what it was supposed to be, but it may have been the "Savage Baronies" treatment for the rest of the Coast -- expanded bits on the nations, local leaders, plots, etc. Or it may have been a true kickoff for the Grand Campaign. Or both. Any of these could explain why I really wanted to do it myself. (I will try to find the proposal.)
The MC: you have to understand something here. I was, at the time, the in-house monster expert for TSR (and was even called "Dr. Monster" by a handful of co-workers). I had put together the hardcover Monstrous Manual, revised rules for creating monsters and determining xp, finally explained how the mind flayer's attack actually worked, contributed to six other monstrous compendiums, and had the only truly complete set of every 2E monster through that point. To be unable to contribute to the MC for the world that had become mine -- well, I regarded that as bordering on blasphemous. But higher-ups seemed to think that an in-house designers talents were better spent on other things (monsters and adventures were good for freelancers, partly to test them, but sourcebooks and settings tended to be in-house).
The Book of Inheritors would have delved deeper into cinnabryl, Inheritor orders, and might have had a handful of fully developed NPCs. And, if I'd had my way, I'm pretty sure it would have talked about the importance of the Inheritors in the Grand Campaign.
Great Hule was to be a sourcebook for the SC's neighbor, and probably would have talked about an invasion or full-scale war. It would have held numerous kits for natives as well.
Slagovich, if it had come about, would have been a developed city setting and associated adventures.

More in a moment.

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Tim Beach » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:15 am

BTW, there's a reason why I use the Savage Baronies art for my avatar -- I posed for it. The artist, Alan Pollack, gave me a stronger chin, but otherwise, it looks a lot like me (though I wear my hair in a ponytail most of the time now). If the guy who ran your game/demo looked like that, it was probably me.

And also: I have nothing against the freelancers who eventually did the MC. One was a good friend, and all of them did an excellent job.

The Grand Campaign
This was the quest to get rid of the Red Curse. For me, this would have been the common thread running through all supplements after the revised Campaign Book. I saw it eventually ending on the Arm of the Immortals, but I was torn, because I thought the enduks and ee'aar were cool, and deserved to be brought in sooner. Eventually, the PCs would have had to gain the cooperation of Immortals, and some of them would probably have to ascend themselves.

Further supplements to the line would have touched on the Grand Campaign, and each supplement would have been attractive to "looters" -- those gamers, like me, who would buy an adventure or sourcebook to take the monsters, magic, and other cool stuff for their home campaigns.

Black Steel
I really, really wanted to do an article, or series, for the magazines. Black Steel would have been a Ravenloft "island" pulled from a dark Herath.

Finally ... I feel that I should apologize. In early 1995, TSR was having problems. Designers were leaving, and my own situation wasn't very good there (it had to do with internal politics, fair compensation, and a number of things that affected all employees). I don't know what would have happened had I stayed, but when I left to go to Wizards of the Coast, that seems to have been the nail in the coffin of a full Red Steel line. Without an established champion, a line wouldn't do well at TSR. Sean Reynolds would become the go-to guy for Red Steel, but I think he had just started at the time. Anyway, I really like Red Steel, and I feel bad that I abandoned it.

But: I don't have a problem with fans running with some of this material. Feel free to ask questions. I'm actually thinking of scraping off the serial numbers and publishing a version of Black Steel.

Thanks for reading.

Tim Beach

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:18 am

Tim Beach wrote:Um ... excuse my ignorance, but what's a "sticky Q&A thread"? (I get the "Q&A" and "thread" -- but why/how is it "sticky"?)
Hi, Tim- and welcome to the Piazza. :D

A "sticky" thread is simply one that is permanently fixed to the top of the forums, so that it is always visible and accessible (ie, doesn't get bumped by new threads and drops to another page). The proposal, then, would simply be to have a sort of "Tim Beach" or "Savage Coast Creators" thread that will always be easily seen and accessible.
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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Plaag » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:20 am

Man I love reading about all of this.

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Gawain_VIII » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:16 am

Tim Beach wrote:Champions of the Savage Coast - 128 pages (assigned to Jean Rabe, but I wanted it)
Red Steel Monstrous Compendium - 128 pages (assigned to freelance, but I wanted it)
Book of the Inheritors - 128 pages (assigned to me, with some freelance)
Great Hule - probably 128 pages (assigned half to me, half to freelance)
another book (maybe Slagovich) - 96 pages (assigned to me)
Sounds like a list of fan-productions to me! Which leads me to wonder if there is any reason Tim's previous employment would prevent him from submitting "fan material" to the Vaults?

We've gotten pretty good at producing near-professional quality materials. OldDawg's Gazetteers nearly rivals the originals--some would even say they're better than a few of the less-popular items from the original GAZ line. The online SC books got PDF-ified by the talented Alex Boucher (although I find his SPAM logo a bit annoying--I'm willing to overlook that in exchange for his talents).

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Eric Anondson » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:22 am

Gawain_VIII wrote:
Tim Beach wrote:Which leads me to wonder if there is any reason Tim's previous employment would prevent him from submitting "fan material" to the Vaults?
I'd wonder too. There are numerous posts by Bruce Heard in the Vaults, though maybe those posts were made during the days of his employment at TSR and could have been viewed differently rather than a former employee.

Tim, yeah, the art does look a bit what I remember.

Tim, a question if you are still hanging around. Was there to be any further thought on developing the Yazak Steppes and the humanoids there?
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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Tim Beach » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:34 am

Tim, a question if you are still hanging around. Was there to be any further thought on developing the Yazak Steppes and the humanoids there?
I would have liked to develop the Yazak Steppes somewhat -- I would have been happy to develop lots of the surrounding areas. I don't remember, however, if it was one of the proposals, or perhaps part of the Champions product. The problem with the area, though, was that it wasn't part of the Coast, and it might have been tough to get onto the schedule. A cool book, though, might have been a "Neighbors" book, covering the Steppes and other areas bordering on the nations of the Coast.

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Thorf » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:50 am

Greetings and welcome to the community, Tim! It's wonderful to have you here.

I'm really enjoying hearing about your original plans for Red Steel/Savage Coast. It's inspiring hearing about what might have been, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of us end up making (or at least outlining) some of the things you're talking about.

So please feel free to share as many details as you can remember! :D

Also, very interesting story about your avatar. I've been researching the background to various pieces of Mystara art, and details like that are impossible to get except from those who were there at the time. Thanks!

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Eric Anondson » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:03 am

Tim Beach wrote:A cool book, though, might have been a "Neighbors" book, covering the Steppes and other areas bordering on the nations of the Coast.
Fair point. I figured that because they are a looming threat to nearly every PC race nation on the coast, they seem like a terrific candidate for substantive detailing if not in its own accessory, in an adventure.

A product I always saw as worthy for the region was a book collecting all of the various colonies, maybe in something of an adventure anthology/adventure sites product. Villaverde, Texieras, Lawful Brotherhood, and Renardy were getting in on the colonizing/exploration/outpost action. Spotlighting the major colonies along the coast, outposts along the Arm of the Immortals and Yalu Bay, and maybe expeditions to Davania's coast. :)
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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by agathokles » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:54 am

Tim Beach wrote: Red Steel Campaign (revised) - 256 pages - my assignment
Orc's Head Peninsula - 96 pages - freelance (I would review)
Champions of the Savage Coast - 128 pages (assigned to Jean Rabe, but I wanted it)
Red Steel Monstrous Compendium - 128 pages (assigned to freelance, but I wanted it)
Book of the Inheritors - 128 pages (assigned to me, with some freelance)
Great Hule - probably 128 pages (assigned half to me, half to freelance)
another book (maybe Slagovich) - 96 pages (assigned to me)
Very interesting, thanks for all the info. Basically, the RS Campaign, Orc's Head and RS MC fit the design of the three books that were released online.
The remaining would have been all very interesting -- Hule being especially important as the link between Savage Coast and the rest of the world.
I'd also liked to see what ideas would have been developed for the Inheritor Orders and their connections to the aligned societies from the old Savage Coast adventure.

GP

P.S.: I'd really like to read Black Steel, and I guess the Ravenloft crowd would also like it.

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Re: [AD&D]What would have been the next SC supplement?

Post by Ashtagon » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:00 am

Tim, I am kind of curious. How much material is there that you created for the setting, but are contractually bound not to release?
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