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Savage Coast Dwarves and Koralgesh

PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:15 pm
by Havard
In another thread, Koralgesh is mentioned as possibly the westernmost expansion of the Savage Coast Dwarves.

What is known about Dwarf history on the Savage Coast?

NPCDave touches on it briefly in this post:

NPCDave wrote:5) Dwarves who migrated to the Savage Coast built over old Nithian settlements. So they were likely at least as far west as Bellayne, and probably there was some interaction with Herath.


Could the settlement of Koralgesh have been part of the same wave of settlements that lead the Dwarves to settle on the Savage Coast in the first place?

-Havard

Re: Savage Coast Dwarves and Koralgesh

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:57 pm
by Chimpman
Some quick thoughts on dwarven history:

Gaz 6 wrote:BC 1500:The Nithian culture begins its rise in the lands east of Rockhome. They perform no exploration in the west and never encounter the dwarves.
#pg 45

BC 1400: Denwarf discovers the great cavern he calls Dengar and decides his time is done. He disappears into the lower caverns. The second dwarven king, Everast I, is crowned. The dwarves begin to build their greatest city within the Dengar cavern.
#pg 45

BC 1000:In the time of the eleventh dwarven king, Blystar III, nonhuman tribal movements put marauding tribes of orcs and goblins against the dwarves. This is the same tribal movement wave that sends the gnolls into ancient Traldar lands in what is now modern Karameikis.
#pg 45

BC 500:The eastern Nithian culture is destroyed and ereased from the minds of man by vengeful Immortals.
#pg 45

BC 492:The Rockhome borders are finally secured against the nonhumans in the Battle of Sardal Pass. This is Year 0 in the dwarven calendar.
#pg 45

BC 475:The dwarves begin a program of exploration outside of Rockhome. They meet Alasiyan nomads and begin to trade with them.
#pg 45


Gaz 8 wrote:BC 938:The Fall of Hindon; orcs burn the Elderhall. The Dark Years begin. Dwarves and orcs fight for control of the halfling land, in battles of Bloody Sands (936), Fireaxe Field (932), and the Hill of Cold Teeth (930).
#pg 8

BC 929: Dwarven rule begins. Loktal Ironshield crowned King of the Glittering Land. Hin enslaved. Dwarven kingdom grows rich, attracting orc and human invasions that weaken the dwarves.
#pg 8


So a couple of high level thoughts.

1) One of the big points that Gaz 6 makes, that Rockhome dwarves and Nithians never met each other, is IMO utter garbage. That statement is clearly disproven by the Gaz 8 timeline which indicates that dwarves (under Loktal Ironshield) ruled hin lands circa BC 1000... a time at which the Nithian empire was at its height in the Known World! I find it much more likely that Rockhome and Nithia knew about each other (and probably interacted through trade, skirmishes, etc), and that the dwarves forgot about this after the SoO was cast in BC 500.

2) There appear to be several possible waves of dwarven expansion/exploration from Rockhome. If the dwarves and Nithians did know about each other, and did interact (as I am going to assume), and if the Nithians did also colonize the Savage Coast, then I think it is also safe to assume that dwarves could have gone with them in that first wave. So we might have something that looks like this:

BC 1500: Early dwarven explorers leave alongside Nithians to explore the western coast of Brun, including the Savage Coast.

BC 1000: Dwarven expansion begins. Dwarves conquer nearby territories including hin lands to the south.

BC 500: The SoO is cast and many dwarves outside of Rockhome, loose a majority of their history (assuming that their expansions beyond Rockhome were so closely tied with Nithian allies, that the history of the two peoples could not be separated). Thus we end up with a bunch of dwarven populations across the KW and beyond, and have "no" explanation for how they got there.

BC 475: "Modern" dwarven exploration begins. This could have in fact been spurred by the desire to reconnect with all of these external, and "mysterious", dwarven populations already outside of Rockhome.


So... getting back to Koralgesh (which sounds like a Nithian influenced name to me...), my bet is that dwarves probably established the settlement along with Nithian allies as far back as BC 1500. If you don't like a date that old, it is also reasonable to assume that they expanded into that area circa BC 1000, at the same time other dwarven kingdoms were popping up outside of Rockhome. In this case it is still very likely that Nithains could have been involved as allies of some nature. Then post SoO dwarves could have rediscovered the settlement sometime after BC 475. In this case the "ruins" they were building over could have been Nithian, or they could have been dwarven (with Nithian influences).

Re: Savage Coast Dwarves and Koralgesh

PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:07 pm
by agathokles
I think that the premise is correct (Dwarves obviously had to meet Nithia), but I'm not so convinced that dwarves and Nithians were in such good relations. Otherwise, we'd find a much greater diffusion of dwarves in Nithian lands, but this does not actually happen (there are few dwarven populations outside Rockhome, and most of them are nearby and/or well accounted for). Nithia and Rockhome might have been rivals, possibly trade partners, but not close allies.

Re: Savage Coast Dwarves and Koralgesh

PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 7:49 pm
by Havard
I agree about Dwarves and Nithians having been in contact.

One other thing they have in common is that both races have the ability to create Rock Ships. Perhaps this is something the Nithians learned from the Dwarves? Or it could be the other way, but Kagyar found a way to cheat the Spell of Oblivion?

-Havard

Re: Savage Coast Dwarves and Koralgesh

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:09 am
by Cthulhudrew
What source indicates the Nithians can use/create Rock Ships? That could be really interesting information about some missing Nithian/Dwarf history! :D

Re: Savage Coast Dwarves and Koralgesh

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 8:09 am
by Havard
Cthulhudrew wrote:What source indicates the Nithians can use/create Rock Ships? That could be really interesting information about some missing Nithian/Dwarf history! :D


I believe it was HWA2 that gave the Nithians Rock Ships. Now, it is possible that it were the Blood Brethren that gave them those ships, but I don't think that was specifically adressed. I will have to check when I get home.

-Havard

Re: Savage Coast Dwarves and Koralgesh

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 8:51 pm
by Chimpman
agathokles wrote:I think that the premise is correct (Dwarves obviously had to meet Nithia), but I'm not so convinced that dwarves and Nithians were in such good relations. Otherwise, we'd find a much greater diffusion of dwarves in Nithian lands, but this does not actually happen (there are few dwarven populations outside Rockhome, and most of them are nearby and/or well accounted for). Nithia and Rockhome might have been rivals, possibly trade partners, but not close allies.

I can see your point. I think I tend to think of them as being friendly (at least in certain periods of time - they may not have always been friendly) because IRL dwarves were held in high esteem in Egypt... so maybe I was baking that idea into Mystara somehow. Regardless, at the very least I would say "contemporaries", and make the assumption that dwarves were involved somehow in the Nithian era world. While they may not have been allies, they could have easily been rivals (friendly or unfriendly) and been interested in the same resources that the Nithian empire was acquiring during its own expansion.

Re: Savage Coast Dwarves and Koralgesh

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:03 am
by Sturm
For how I envisioned the history of the KW at the time, I think Nithia could well have tried to use the dwarves as a buffer against Oenkmar and the humanoids. Maybe also the attempt at colonization of the Five Shires by dwarves was to keep humanoids away from the south east, firmly in Nithian hands for quite some time.
They probably had times of cooperation and times of distrust, until in the end with the Nithian turning to Thanatos, dwarves remaining in Nithian lands would have probably fled.
Before 1000 BC however it is possible that some dwarves had followed the Nithians to the Savage Coast. I see the time from 1300 to 1000 BC as the height of Nithian civilizations, with decline between 1000 and 500 BC.
I'd also like to have some special dwarf artisans among the Nithians in the HW, I think it would make sense.
It would be also interesting to have some Ylari dwarves who do not remember anymore when they came from Rockhome..

Re: Savage Coast Dwarves and Koralgesh

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 7:17 pm
by Cthulhudrew
Havard wrote:I believe it was HWA2 that gave the Nithians Rock Ships. Now, it is possible that it were the Blood Brethren that gave them those ships, but I don't think that was specifically adressed. I will have to check when I get home.


!

You're right! I totally missed that somehow (I've been compiling a list of all magical items in Mystara/BECMI sources). It even does reference the similarity to the dwarven rockships! That is very interesting.