Carnifex and the SC Lizardfolk

[Havard]

The SC material gives a much more recent creation date for the lizardfolk. Any thoughts on how to tie this in with the idea that the lizardfolk first appeared as servitors of the Carnifex in truly ancient times?

Havard

[Chimpman]

The SC material gives a much more recent creation date for the lizardfolk. Any thoughts on how to tie this in with the idea that the lizardfolk first appeared as servitors of the Carnifex in truly ancient times?

I'm assuming here that you mean the creation of the three saurian races by Herath? Caymen, Gatormen, and Shazak - which I guess are supposed to be the standard lizardmen.

I know Geoff has some ideas about this - I'm going to try and answer without revealing any of his secrets .

There are several saurian races that have been around for much longer than the lizardfolk on the SC. I think that many of these can be used as carnifex servants in ancient times. Trogs are the first that come to mind, and I'd say they were probably the most numerous of the carnifex's servitors. Sis'thik also work as an older carnifex servitor - this one bred for desert environs.

The Caymen and gatormen don't pose a problem I think, because those are races specific to the SC. The Shazak seem to be the only anomaly. There may be a couple of solutions to this (I'm not sure what will actually mesh with SC history, because my SC-fu is a little rusty) :

1) The Shazak were not actually created by Herath - instead they were used as a template for the creation of the other two races. In this case the Shazak would have been there from the beginning, but I think this actually clashes with SC history the most since aren't the Shazak the last race created?

2) Herath was using carnifex magic (found and pillaged from carnifex ruins in the area) and the Shazak are an analogous race to the lizardfolk (possibly even able to interbreed) although they have a different origin. If Herathian wizards were working from carnifex notes, this could represent the attempt that they "got right".

What I'm also really interested in is this: What is the relationship between the Wallara (also a saurian race - although they appear more human) and the carnifex?

EDIT: And by the way, I favor option #2 above.

[Havard]

The SC material gives a much more recent creation date for the lizardfolk. Any thoughts on how to tie this in with the idea that the lizardfolk first appeared as servitors of the Carnifex in truly ancient times?

I'm assuming here that you mean the creation of the three saurian races by Herath? Caymen, Gatormen, and Shazak - which I guess are supposed to be the standard lizardmen.

I know Geoff has some ideas about this - I'm going to try and answer without revealing any of his secrets .

There are several saurian races that have been around for much longer than the lizardfolk on the SC. I think that many of these can be used as carnifex servants in ancient times. Trogs are the first that come to mind, and I'd say they were probably the most numerous of the carnifex's servitors. Sis'thik also work as an older carnifex servitor - this one bred for desert environs.

Agreed.

The Caymen and gatormen don't pose a problem I think, because those are races specific to the SC.

Slightly different topic, but the Gatormen also existed at the time of Blackmoor, controlling the Barrier Swamp...

The Shazak seem to be the only anomaly. There may be a couple of solutions to this (I'm not sure what will actually mesh with SC history, because my SC-fu is a little rusty) :

1) The Shazak were not actually created by Herath - instead they were used as a template for the creation of the other two races. In this case the Shazak would have been there from the beginning, but I think this actually clashes with SC history the most since aren't the Shazak the last race created?

2) Herath was using carnifex magic (found and pillaged from carnifex ruins in the area) and the Shazak are an analogous race to the lizardfolk (possibly even able to interbreed) although they have a different origin. If Herathian wizards were working from carnifex notes, this could represent the attempt that they "got right".

I really like this idea that the Herathians were somehow using Carnifex lore. I think I prefer the second option, making the Shazak different from lizardmen elsewhere.

What I'm also really interested in is this: What is the relationship between the Wallara (also a saurian race - although they appear more human) and the carnifex?

IIRC the Wallara are descended from Dragons...?

Havard

[Chimpman]

Slightly different topic, but the Gatormen also existed at the time of Blackmoor, controlling the Barrier Swamp...

Perhaps not off topic at all. This is something I wasn't aware of... but that being the case I think it's another clue we can use to point to option #2 (Herath using Carnifex Lore). This might give you something else to work on - making a connection between the carnifex and the gatormen of Blackmoor's era.

IIRC the Wallara are descended from Dragons...?

I think you are absolutely correct. I had forgotten that!

[Havard]

Slightly different topic, but the Gatormen also existed at the time of Blackmoor, controlling the Barrier Swamp...

Perhaps not off topic at all. This is something I wasn't aware of... but that being the case I think it's another clue we can use to point to option #2 (Herath using Carnifex Lore). This might give you something else to work on - making a connection between the carnifex and the gatormen of Blackmoor's era.

Food for thought, certainly!

I would probably say that the Egg of Coot has access to Carnifex lore, just as the Herathians later did and created its own Gatormen. The Egg is known to spawn all kinds of strange creatures. Alternately, the secret of creating Gatormen was stolen from the Egg by the Ran (He took a bunch of stuff from his former master) who fled to the Duchy of Ten and bred the creatures there. That would help explain why the realm of the Gatormen is so close to the Duchy of Ten.

A third option is to link the Gatormen to the Temple of the Frog, but since the Gatormen aren't exactly friendly towards the Frogfolk, I am leaning towards one of the other options above.

Havard

[Chimpman]

I would probably say that the Egg of Coot has access to Carnifex lore, just as the Herathians later did and created its own Gatormen. The Egg is known to spawn all kinds of strange creatures. Alternately, the secret of creating Gatormen was stolen from the Egg by the Ran (He took a bunch of stuff from his former master) who fled to the Duchy of Ten and bred the creatures there. That would help explain why the realm of the Gatormen is so close to the Duchy of Ten.

I really like these ideas!

[Havard]

I would probably say that the Egg of Coot has access to Carnifex lore, just as the Herathians later did and created its own Gatormen. The Egg is known to spawn all kinds of strange creatures. Alternately, the secret of creating Gatormen was stolen from the Egg by the Ran (He took a bunch of stuff from his former master) who fled to the Duchy of Ten and bred the creatures there. That would help explain why the realm of the Gatormen is so close to the Duchy of Ten.

I really like these ideas!

As mentioned, I lean towards Lord Ran (aka The Ran of Ah Foo) being the direct creator of the Barrier Swamp Gatormen, using lore he had stolen from the Egg. Where did the Egg get that lore from? I am thinking the Egg is as old as the Carnifex and may have direct connections to the Outer Beings, same as the Carnifex did.

Havard

[Eric Anondson]

Reading this thread fills me with glee.

Linking the Savage Coast, Blackmoor, and the Carnifex. Awesomeness.

[hyrieus]

The Unknown Mystara angle is definitely awesome. The game potential from further intermingling the Outer Beings with Mystara is exciting, after all we already have that Clark Ashton Smith influence with Averoigne. I can well imagine that there are different sets of Lizardfolk with different stats and origins, e.g. Carnifex, Malpheggi and Shazak, after all how easy is it to distinguish between a Hutaakan, a Lupin and a Gnoll?

It also puts a spin on the the Voyage of the Princess Ark article where Haldemar encounters a Brain Collector. The Neh-Thalggu definitely must be connected to the Outer Beings. The creature at the time claims that it's just collecting from the famous wizardly nations, Glantri, Alphatia, Nithia and Herath, but what if there's a deeper connection? There's another thread already linking the Nithians to the Carnifex.

[Chimpman]

Reading this thread fills me with glee.

Linking the Savage Coast, Blackmoor, and the Carnifex. Awesomeness.

We've filled Eric with glee

It also puts a spin on the the Voyage of the Princess Ark article where Haldemar encounters a Brain Collector. The Neh-Thalggu definitely must be connected to the Outer Beings. The creature at the time claims that it's just collecting from the famous wizardly nations, Glantri, Alphatia, Nithia and Herath, but what if there's a deeper connection? There's another thread already linking the Nithians to the Carnifex.

This idea has a lot of potential! So are you suggesting the brain collector might actually be collecting all those folks with knowledge of Carnifex lore?

[Hugin]

Fantastic ideas, guys!

My thoughts are similar to Eric's!

[Seer of Yhog]

You guys have pretty much nailed my thoughts down. Considering how widespread (IMO) the Carnifex were, it's conceivable that they left caches of knowledge all over the world - some left behind deliberately, others by accident. I would say that the Herathian case would fall into the latter category, which would explain why the aranea would have had to reverse-engineer a lot of what they found (unknowingly changing the results in the process).

So, while the Shazak are lizard men, and may be able to interbreed with lizard men from other parts of Mystara, I would say they are not 100% identical to the lizard men of the KW (who are largely descended from the lizard men of Mogreth, and may have some human genes) - genetically or physically. I would go as far as to differentiate the Shazak and KW lizard men from their cousins in Davania, who would have been products of the first Carnifex Empire (not created by Y'hog).

In the end, I see three sub-types of lizard man. The Davanian species would be the oldest, and the other two indirectly descended.

[Hugin]

Has anyone considered what interaction there may have been between the Carnifex and the War of the Giants described by Marco in his Codex Immortalis (found in the Zugzul entry)?

[Havard]

You guys have pretty much nailed my thoughts down. Considering how widespread (IMO) the Carnifex were, it's conceivable that they left caches of knowledge all over the world - some left behind deliberately, others by accident. I would say that the Herathian case would fall into the latter category, which would explain why the aranea would have had to reverse-engineer a lot of what they found (unknowingly changing the results in the process).

Cool. I like the connection between the Aranea and the Carnifex. Could the Aranea also explain the connection between the Carnifex and Nithia, providing a sort of link between the two?

So, while the Shazak are lizard men, and may be able to interbreed with lizard men from other parts of Mystara, I would say they are not 100% identical to the lizard men of the KW (who are largely descended from the lizard men of Mogreth, and may have some human genes) - genetically or physically. I would go as far as to differentiate the Shazak and KW lizard men from their cousins in Davania, who would have been products of the first Carnifex Empire (not created by Y'hog).

I like this! Any suggestions to how they might differ? Do the Shazak appear more monsterous?

In the end, I see three sub-types of lizard man. The Davanian species would be the oldest, and the other two indirectly descended.

Possibly a fourth one on Skothar, linked to Blackmoor?

Havard

[hyrieus]

I'm not sure that the Shazak would be more monstrous. Dragon 185 give rules for potential Lizardman PCs, It suggests starting them with 1d4+2 Intelligence and having that increase as they gain levels, Common Lizardmen are given a max of 8 Int, while Shazak can reach 12. It's also a different scheme from the Hollow World set where Lizardmen have no penalty to intelligence.

[Chimpman]

In the end, I see three sub-types of lizard man. The Davanian species would be the oldest, and the other two indirectly descended.

Possibly a fourth one on Skothar, linked to Blackmoor?

It could still be three, with the Davanian and Skotharian lizardmen both being directly created by the carnifex at some point. They could also have been created spearately (but in both instances I'd say that the carnifex were the creators).

I'm not sure that the Shazak would be more monstrous. Dragon 185 give rules for potential Lizardman PCs, It suggests starting them with 1d4+2 Intelligence and having that increase as they gain levels, Common Lizardmen are given a max of 8 Int, while Shazak can reach 12. It's also a different scheme from the Hollow World set where Lizardmen have no penalty to intelligence.

Yup, I'd agree with this as well. In fact the Shazak may be less monstrous and more "human" than their cousins (based on the int findings above). I would rule though that caps on lizardman intelligence (anywhere on Mystara) are probably all related to their cultural background, and not a physical limitation. Most Mystaran lizardmen are portrayed as the savage descendants of a long ago declined culture.

[Seer of Yhog]

Cool. I like the connection between the Aranea and the Carnifex. Could the Aranea also explain the connection between the Carnifex and Nithia, providing a sort of link between the two?

The aranea would probably be the best candidates to serve as that link in the SC. I think that the aranea had pretty extensive relations with the Nithians. Whether the Nithians knew what the aranea really were is another question. My copy of Red Steel is packed away, so I can’t check it to see whether it has anything to confirm or deny this.

The first tidbits of Carnifex lore to fall into the Nithians’ hands were no doubt found in old Mogreth – likely from Ssugath. More was acquired from Theliir, but the information they recovered there was less useful, as the Sshagarath Dynasty did not see itself as a successor to Mogreth.

I like this! Any suggestions to how they might differ? Do the Shazak appear more monsterous?

I would say that the KW lizard men look more “human” than their cousins – their scales are probably smoother, like a snake’s (closer to human flesh), their heads probably have fewer or less dramatic ridges, they may have smaller snouts, their eyes might be closer to human proportions, their skeletal structure might be similar, and their overall silhouette might match a human’s (such that, if one wore a robe or cloak, there would be no indication that the wearer wasn’t human), etc. In short, IMO a KW lizard man can move like a human, and has the same range of motion and mechanics as one. All this is based on secret information from Mogreth's history.

Davanian lizard men are probably the most “primitive-looking”, since they were created by lizard-kin (Carnifex). Bigger snouts, eyes might be set further apart, limbs might not match human proportions or layout (e.g., their hips might be closer to a dinosaur’s than a human’s), bigger tails. They might not even walk like a human. Definitely closer to a dinosaur model.

Shazaks might be somewhere in between, depending on where the aranea first got the information, and whether they separate groups shared what they knew. I am working under the assumption that multiple groups of aranea discovered Carnifex relics and information independently. If the aranea found their information on the IoD or in the KW (i.e., the ruins of Mogreth), the “blueprint” would be based on the KW lizard man. If their source data was found in Davania or the SC, then the Shazaks would more closely resemble the Davanian species.

IIRC, the aranea created the cay-men and gator men first. Both of these species look more saurial to me, which leads me to believe that the aranea source data would have been found in the SC region (which, in my work, was home to a few Carnifex colonies). So, I would argue that the Shazak would look more “saurial” than their KW cousins, but we also need to keep in mind that the aranea were not working with perfect information. Many errors were made, after all. I don’t have VotPA handy, so I can’t see the drawing of the Shazak queen in that episode where Haldemar & co visit that region.

Possibly a fourth one on Skothar, linked to Blackmoor?

I think that species would probably be related to the Davanians – most likely they originated in Davania and spread outwards. Brun (pre-GRoF) would have been largely inhospitable, but Skothar would have been perfect. That said, the Skotharian lizard men have no doubt changed somewhat since that time.

[hyrieus]

Going back to the motives of the Brain Collector, isn't it a teensy bit suspicious that a Neh Talggu (if any OD&D creature is linked to the Outer Beings it's them) turns up in the midst of the greatest Lizardfolk concentrations on Brun? It claims to Haldemar that it's been compelled by the Herathian king and just wants to complete a thesis on Mystara's magic drain, but it would say that, wouldn't it.

Instead i'd suggest its true aim is to investigate the scaly ones for a propensity to turn to Carnifex and OB masters. Thats why it has lizardman and cay-man brains, to see how they've adapted from the original Carnifez template. It claims that the Gator men have mistaken it for an avatar of Gorn, but instead it may have struck a deal with them to open them to OB influence. This would be especially pleasing to the OB as Gorn/Demogorgon is an ancient foe of theirs.

As for its human collection, it's apparent it was summoned by the Nithian, "It's breached! It's breached! The Old One comes!". A lot can be read into this, did the Nithian know what what was to be summoned? An Old One in the Lovecraftian Great Old One sense, rather than the trans-cosmic powers which dwell beyond the vortex? Were ancient rituals recovered from the Carnifex being used? Forbidden knowledge involved in the original downfall of Nithia? Is it not just planar boundaries being breached but the effects of the Spell of Preservation itself in, invoking such hideous lore?

Likewise the Herathian noble, presumably he was involved in Carnifex research so the Collector decided to pick through his mind to find out what he knew. The presence of the Glantrian, Lady Nyraviel is more incongruous, but she is a Dracomancer and the Draconic powers are opposed to the Herathians because of their destruction of Wallara culture so she may have been investigating Herath. Also it's possible that Neh-Thalggu had several different tasks to perform, having had the good fortune to find itself on the Prime plane, it may have been tasked to gather as much information as possible and the magic drain must be of much interest.

Eventually it becomes deranged as it tries to access the memories of the Herathian brain, obviously something in the architecture of the Aranea mind caused this, i'd like to speculate that Aranea exist is more than one plane at once (M5 suggests they're related to planar spiders) and this confused the Brain Collector. It would provide a mechanism for their shapeshifting (other bodies on other planes), protect them from many conventional forms of scrying (explaining why the Alphatians are still ignorant about the Thothian Aranea) and possibly give a defence against spell such as ESP (does it work correctly when some of your thoughts are taking place on another plane?). It could also explain why they were so threatened by the Wallara, who could detect them thanks to their own dimension shifting powers.