4th ed Lupin

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KingNate
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4th ed Lupin

Post by KingNate » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:03 pm

Hello everyone,
I've been working at creating the Lupin race from the RED STEEL campaign for my homebrewed campaign. I've been working on and discussing it at wizards at this link: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1081108. There I was directed to this site where I might be able to get more feedback. While I'm trying to keep with the original idea of the lupins, I'm also trying to make them balanced for 4th edition. I'm also trying to make them an attractive race for my players without making them too attractive.

Here's what I have, please let me know what you think. Thanks.


Lupin

Racial Traits
Average Height: 4’7” – 5’1”
Average Weight: 120 – 180 lb.

Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Speed: 6
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, choice of one other
Skill Bonuses: +2 Perception, +2 Insight
Acute Senses: You gain +2 bonus to initiative checks.
Lupin Sense: You can use Lupin Sense as an encounter power.


Lupin Sense
With a sniff of the air, you locate the three invisible creatures skulking towards you.
Encounter, Psychic
Minor Action Close
blast 3
Targets: All creatures in area
Attack: Wisdom +2 vs Reflex
Hit: Targeted creature grants you line of sight and cannot benefit from invisibility or concealment against you until the beginning of your next turn. Any target you did not have line of sight for prior to using this ability, grants you combat advantage until the beginning of your next turn.
Increase to +4 bonus at 11th level, and +6 bonus at 21st level.
Sustain Minor: Whenever you sustain this power you make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: One creature you have line of sight for.
Secondary Attack: Wisdom +2 vs Reflex
Hit: Target creature grants you line of sight and cannot benefit from invisibility or concealment against you until the beginning of your next turn (save ends).
Increase to +4 bonus at 11th level, and +6 bonus at 21st level.




Racial Feats

Enlarged Lupin Sense [Lupin]
Prerequisite: Lupin, Lupin Sense racial power
Benefit: When you use your Lupin Sense power, you can choose to make it a blast 5 instead of a blast 3.

Heighten Sense [Lupin]
Prerequisite: Lupin, Lupin Sense
Benefit: Whenever you use your Lupin Sense racial power you gain +3 feat bonus for all monster knowledge skill checks for any creatures in the area and you also gain +2 feat bonus to your Perception checks and Insight checks until the beginning of your next turn.

Memory Sense [Lupin]
Prerequisite: Lupin
Benefit: For the purpose of detecting a unique individual you’ve met before, in a nonmagical disguise, you get +2 to your Insight check.
You gain +1 feat bonus to Perception checks and Insight checks.

Detect True Form [Lupin]
Prerequisite: Lupin
Benefit: When dealing with a creature whose true form is changed, concealed or disguised, such as lycanthropy, polymorph, or illusions, you receive a +2 feat bonus to Perception and Insight skill checks to discover the creature’s true form.

With the Memory Sense feat, I’m now not sure if Detect True Form is needed or if I should combine the two somehow. If you have questions on why I picked certain things for the race you should check out the above link to wizards where I ramble on about my thoughts on my choices. Thanks

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Hugin
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Re: 4th ed Lupin

Post by Hugin » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:01 pm

Nice to see you here, KingNate!

Some comments on the Lupin Sense racial power -
- The description mentions "three invisible creatures", I assuming that is just an example number and not a limit (since 'Targets' mentions all creatures in area).
- Under 'Hit' is it essentially saying that the first time you detect an invisible creature (and thus are granted line of sight) you gain combat advantage over them for that round?
- As far as I can tell, the only difference in the Secondary Target/Attack is that you can no longer gain combat advantage because it will not be the first round in which you had line of sight. Correct?

I like the racial feats so far. Nice.

agathokles
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Re: 4th ed Lupin

Post by agathokles » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:11 pm

Nice use of the 4e mechanics, KingNate.

Does your conversion target a specific subset of Lupins (e.g., hunters or wee folk)? I'm asking because the lupins here seem a bit short (in Savage Coast they range from 5' to 7', IIRC) and they don't have bonuses to Str and Con. I fully agree with the Wis bonus, since Wisdom is more strongly associated with perception in 4e, BTW, but I'd rather use Str or Con (most likely Con) instead of Cha.
Obviously, it may be different if the Lupins you're focusing on are, e.g., the Beagle or Zvornikian Sentinel.

Also, while the feats presented are good, and reproduce well the various effects of Lupin senses, it would be useful to have alternate racial feats, especially for Lupins with lower senses, mimicking the effects of AD&D racial powers such as the Shar Pei polearm defense or the Bulldogs ' thunderous bark (this one is easy, it gives an encounter fear blast power).

Finally, some considerations on the "favored" classes for Lupins: in AD&D, Lupins are especially good as Rangers, Clerics, and Fighters; as Wizards, they are proficient at Divination, Necromancy, Abjuration and Invocation, less so in other schools. In 4e, the Wizard and Warlock classes have mostly Invocation-type powers in the War Wizard and Scourge Warlock builds. Since Dexterity is not a good choice as a bonus-supported score for most Lupin subraces, moving the Cha bonus to Con would have the dual effect of strengthening Scourge Warlock builds instead of Deceptive Warlock builds, which are out of character. Moreover, it strengthens the Martial classes (especially Fighter, since Ranger won't be the primary choice anyway).

Hope it helps,
GP

KingNate
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Re: 4th ed Lupin

Post by KingNate » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:03 am

The description mentions "three invisible creatures", I assuming that is just an example number and not a limit (since 'Targets' mentions all creatures in area).
Yeah that's just an example I didn't want to use, "you detect the invisible creature" people might think that it was only one.
Under 'Hit' is it essentially saying that the first time you detect an invisible creature (and thus are granted line of sight) you gain combat advantage over them for that round?
Yeah, but not just invisible creatures, any creature you gain line of sight from using this ability, such as with concelment or stealth or anything else that could prevent line of sight. The idea being, the invisible creature doesn't think he can be seen then you wack them in the head.
As far as I can tell, the only difference in the Secondary Target/Attack is that you can no longer gain combat advantage because it will not be the first round in which you had line of sight. Correct?
The idea I was trying to get across, and maybe I didn't do a good job at that, is a little hunter vs hunted senario with the lupin character able to track one of the targets regardless of whether or not he was orignially within the area of effect. The lupin would be able to have line of sight with one person as long as he uses a minor action each round. That character would not ever be able to turn invisible, use concealment or use stealth. Of course I gave the hunted creature an out by allowing a saving throw to end the effect. At least that's what I was trying to get across.
Does your conversion target a specific subset of Lupins (e.g., hunters or wee folk)? I'm asking because the lupins here seem a bit short (in Savage Coast they range from 5' to 7', IIRC)
Hugin was kind enough to point out to me the subset of lupins. I didn't even know they exsited when I created this. I based all this off of the lupin in the RED STEEL box set. The lupin here is short because of a little math mistake I made. (get it, 'little'?) Damn older versions using the inches. I'd forgotten about the dice rolling to add to those inches. I'll fix it.
it would be useful to have alternate racial feats, especially for Lupins with lower senses, mimicking the effects of AD&D racial powers such as the Shar Pei polearm defense or the Bulldogs ' thunderous bark (this one is easy, it gives an encounter fear blast power).
I'm not sure if I want to flood my players with an huge list of lupin breeds. My goal was to recreate what I had in that box set. I do have a lot of ideas for the breeds and MAY just do a little something with subsets.
and they don't have bonuses to Str and Con. I fully agree with the Wis bonus, since Wisdom is more strongly associated with perception in 4e, BTW, but I'd rather use Str or Con (most likely Con) instead of Cha.
Originally the lupin info I had gave lupins +1 Str, +1 Con, -1 Wis, -1 Int. I was just going to do it the lazy way and give +2 Str, +2 Con and call it a day. But I didn't like it. Every one of my players who wanted to be a fighter would have jumped all over this and I didn't want that. Further research revealed that it's really dumb to give a lupin a penalty in wisdom. So I knew one of the two abilities had to be +2 Wisdom. I didn't go with Strength because I felt that would put the lupin in the same strength category as a dragonborn and I didn't feel that a lupin should be as strong as a dragonborn. So I went with +2 Con and was happy with that. UNTIL I realized that this is the same bonus that a dwarf has and I didn't want my players comparing lupins with dwarves so I went on a huge quest for a new ability. Dex seemed silly for a lupin. Int didn't seem right and I didn't want to be flamed for giving my lupin +2 Wis +2 Int when orginally they had a penalty for each. Charisma seemed to work for me, plus, for me the RED STEEL campaign was about swashbuckling with the Panache rules and all so I gave Lupins a bonus in Charisma as a nod to the campaign setting in which they came from and I was leaning towards a swashbuckling lupin. However you do make some good points and I'm have tempted to switch it back to Con, but I keep thinking of those poor dwarves.

Thanks for the look-over, I'll see about rewording the lupin scense to better explain what I am trying to do.

KingNate
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Re: 4th ed Lupin

Post by KingNate » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:48 pm

Here's a rewording of the lupin sense...

Lupin Sense
With a sniff of the air, you locate numerous invisible creatures skulking towards you.
Encounter, Psychic
Minor Action Close
blast 3
Targets: All creatures in area
Attack: Wisdom +2 vs Reflex
Hit: Targeted creature grants you line of sight and cannot benefit from invisibility or concealment against you until the end of your next turn. Any target you did not have line of sight for prior to using this ability, grants you combat advantage until the beginning of your next turn.
Increase to +4 bonus at 11th level, and +6 bonus at 21st level.
Sustain Minor: Whenever you sustain this power you make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: One creature within 3 squares of you that you already have line of sight for.
Secondary Attack: Wisdom +2 vs Reflex
Hit: Target creature grants you line of sight and cannot benefit from invisibility or concealment against you until the end of your next turn (save ends).
Increase to +4 bonus at 11th level, and +6 bonus at 21st level.

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Hugin
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Re: 4th ed Lupin

Post by Hugin » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:25 pm

Looks good. I did have a thought about the description though that just popped into my mind; how about "With a sniff of the air, your nose lets you 'see' the creatures your eyes can't.", or something along those lines?

I actually didn't even consider that it could allow you to locate hidden or concealed creatures. Very lupin-like and cool.
The idea I was trying to get across, and maybe I didn't do a good job at that, is a little hunter vs hunted senario with the lupin character able to track one of the targets regardless of whether or not he was orignially within the area of effect. The lupin would be able to have line of sight with one person as long as he uses a minor action each round. That character would not ever be able to turn invisible, use concealment or use stealth. Of course I gave the hunted creature an out by allowing a saving throw to end the effect. At least that's what I was trying to get across.
I never thought about it in that way but I love the flavour of it.

KingNate
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Re: 4th ed Lupin

Post by KingNate » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:51 pm

"With a sniff of the air, your nose lets you 'see' the creatures your eyes can't.",
Sweet, I'm stealing it :twisted: Thanks.

Another feat I just came up with.

Sharp Awareness
[Lupin]
Prerequisite: Lupin, Lupin Sense
Benefit: Gain +1 bonus to all defenses until end of encounter or 5 minutes if you use Lupin Sense while bloodied.

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Hugin
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Re: 4th ed Lupin

Post by Hugin » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:51 pm

Hey, KingNate, you are now a contributing member of the Vaults of Pandius! You can see your 4E Lupin here.

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Re: 4th ed Lupin

Post by KingNate » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:39 pm

Hugin wrote:Hey, KingNate, you are now a contributing member of the Vaults of Pandius! You can see your 4E Lupin here.
:o :o :o :o

I'm Shocked! Well, I can't complain about them stealing it, they did give me credit. It wasn't finished, but I did give up working on it when the Gnoll was released for Dragon. The Gnoll ended up covering the canine race I needed for my campaign world. Well, if other people wants to use the Lupin for their world their they go. It's a shame they didn't use the lastest version of the Lupin.

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Havard
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Re: 4th ed Lupin

Post by Havard » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:13 pm

KingNate wrote: :o :o :o :o

I'm Shocked! Well, I can't complain about them stealing it, they did give me credit. It wasn't finished, but I did give up working on it when the Gnoll was released for Dragon. The Gnoll ended up covering the canine race I needed for my campaign world. Well, if other people wants to use the Lupin for their world their they go. It's a shame they didn't use the lastest version of the Lupin.
Ah, you are new at this ;)
The owner of the Vaults of Pandius, Shawn, is a member here and usually puts up all the good stuff from the Piazza and other Mystara community forums/mailing lists. Credits will always be given ofcourse. If you have made revisions to the Lupin now up at the vaults, Im sure Shawn will be happy to update it. The Vaults is the official Mystara fan website, so this is a great honour. Congratulations! :)

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Re: 4th ed Lupin

Post by stanles » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:49 am

KingNate wrote:
Hugin wrote:Hey, KingNate, you are now a contributing member of the Vaults of Pandius! You can see your 4E Lupin here.
:o :o :o :o

I'm Shocked! Well, I can't complain about them stealing it, they did give me credit. It wasn't finished, but I did give up working on it when the Gnoll was released for Dragon. The Gnoll ended up covering the canine race I needed for my campaign world. Well, if other people wants to use the Lupin for their world their they go. It's a shame they didn't use the lastest version of the Lupin.
sorry mate, I didn't think of it as "stealing it" as such, but if you want it taken down, just ask.

I'm not sure what you mean but it not being the latest version however ... what's missing?
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