Comeliness

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Comeliness

Postby Havard » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:37 pm

Anyone ever use this ability score? It was introduced in 1st Edition's Unearthed Arcana as an additional ability score.

This blog article attempts to fix some of the things they feel are problematic with Comeliness. Personally I never saw any reason to introduce yet another ability score when appearance is already covered by Charisma. Many players still treat Charisma as a dump stat. Why another one?

What are your experiences with Comeliness as an ability score? Have you ever used it? What did you think about the idea?

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Re: Comeliness

Postby Khedrac » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:00 pm

Heh, I actually remember getting the Unearthed Arcarna when it came out and thinking "why?" over the addition of Comeliness as a stat.

What I don't remember is ever using it...

Oh, I think we did generate it (occasionally), then we ignored it. Wasn't modified by one's charisma just to make it more confusing? (vague memories).
Add in the new 9d6 -> 3d6 stat generation method and it got even sillier (not that we ever used that to my recollection).
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Cthulhudrew » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:45 pm

Our experience was similar to Khedrac's. At first it seemed like okay, that's kind of cool- it is basically a stat that does what Charisma seems like it should do, but didn't. So we started to use it, and then just sort of stopped using it. I think largely because it just felt very extraneous.
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Boneguard » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:20 pm

Havard wrote:Anyone ever use this ability score? It was introduced in 1st Edition's Unearthed Arcana as an additional ability score.


We do use it in our table top campaign that's been going on for over 10 years now.

Havard wrote:This blog article attempts to fix some of the things they feel are problematic with Comeliness. Personally I never saw any reason to introduce yet another ability score when appearance is already covered by Charisma.


As indicated in the first paragraph of Comeliness, it is distinct from Charisma in that:

Comeliness is your physical beauty and social grace.
Charisma is your strength of character, your leadership your prestance/presence/People skills.

So with that in mind, when we are trying to do use a social skill to convinces someone, to demoralize someone, to try to squeeze a bit more payment, etc. and depending on the circumstance (Are we known to them or not, are they fascinated or not, etc. our GM calls for a Reaction check using either straight charisma reaction modifier, straight Comeliness modifier or a combined Charisma+Comeliness modifer.

The fact that physical beauty was rolled into Charisma initially didn't make any sence and this was their way to correct this oversight

Havard wrote:Many players still treat Charisma as a dump stat. Why another one?


We not an issue for our Game as:
1) We roll in order and using the old D&D modification rules, Constitution and Charisma cannot be modifier.
2) As indicated in the second paragraph of comeliness, by RAW, it's impossible for Comeliness to be a dump stat since it is rolled seperately from the core 6 stats. You roll your 6 stats THEN you roll an additional 3d6 for yuor comeliness. 2 completely disctinct roll.
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Re: Comeliness

Postby BlackBat242 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:12 am

Yes... Charisma was not supposed to be appearance, but to describe how "likeable" and "magnetic/commanding" your personality was.

And yes, as a completely separate roll in the rules, it could not be used as a "dump stat" unless you were house-ruling it to allow that.


And yes, I have used it... and still use it, even in 2E AD&D games!
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Re: Comeliness

Postby rendclaw » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:47 pm

I took it with me when I went from 1e to 2e... I found an article in the early 2000s where someone ported it over and cleaned it up somewhat.
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Big Mac » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:49 pm

Khedrac wrote:Heh, I actually remember getting the Unearthed Arcarna when it came out and thinking "why?" over the addition of Comeliness as a stat.

What I don't remember is ever using it...


I think my first GM used it (in a 2nd Edition AD&D game).

I couldn't find anything about it in my PHB and he had a bunch of strange ideas about Charisma changing Comeliness that didn't really make sense to me. It felt like half a stat to me. I didn't realise that it was a 1st Edition thing until later.

Khedrac wrote:Oh, I think we did generate it (occasionally), then we ignored it. Wasn't modified by one's charisma just to make it more confusing? (vague memories).
Add in the new 9d6 -> 3d6 stat generation method and it got even sillier (not that we ever used that to my recollection).


I guess that the Charisma/Comeliness relationship was probably supposed to be similar to the Wisdom/Intelligence relationship. But the interaction between Charisma and Comeliness just didn't feel quite right to me. But then again, the thing in 3rd Edition of converting D&D stats into pluses and minuses was even more baffling, when I first saw that. So I guess that I could have gotten around to understanding Comeliness, if I had stuck with it.
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Big Mac » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:35 pm

Havard wrote:This blog article attempts to fix some of the things they feel are problematic with Comeliness. Personally I never saw any reason to introduce yet another ability score when appearance is already covered by Charisma. Many players still treat Charisma as a dump stat. Why another one?


I'm a little bit confused, by the "fix" that Fail Squad Games talk about in the "Am I Pretty? Comeliness" article, that you pointed me to. They have a chart in their "Where’s the Comeliness table?" section and a second chart in their "It’s backwards!" section. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see the difference. They look the same to m. So I don't really understand what "fix" they are applying.

Perhaps one of you that does use Comeliness can explain to me what I'm missing. How does the original rule work. And what adjustment is Fail Squad Games suggesting?
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Re: Comeliness

Postby dulsi » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:12 pm

We rolled comeliness at one point but I can't say we used it. I liked 2E because it put together all the rules we used and threw out the rest (or made it optional).
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Re: Comeliness

Postby willpell » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:28 am

I've mentioned before that I'm as heavy into White Wolf's "World of Darkness" (x2) settings as I am into D&D. The original WOD used "Appearance" as a stat, and I've often debated the utility of this. Overall I think folding it into Charisma is best for D&D purposes, and largely agree with WoD 2.0 replacing it with Composure (although I think the two can be merged pretty easily, since both are a little light on applicability; calling the fusion "Poise" or "Grace" or the like works well). Looking at how it was applied in some of the less well-written WoD supplements makes me think of any number of jokes about bad D&D players, who go around in their campaign's initial tavern, reminding all the serving-wenches that they have an 18 in Charisma. :ugeek:

Personally, I regard "Comeliness" as a silly-sounding name, and inferior for this purpose to Appearance (though it is admittedly more specific as to whether a high number in this stat is a good thing). Fun fact - the justifiably-infamous "Book of Erotic Fantasy" (whose publisher, Valar Publications, was a D20-OGL-based offshoot of White Wolf) used the term "Appearance" instead when attempting to add this seventh stat. However, they did a good job of illustrating how this ought not be done. That book's poor reputation is well deserved, and I am certainly not saying that out of prudishness!

Anyway, to get back to the actual topic, I've thought about this question several times, and there's really only one major character archetype which justifies a separation between Comeliness/Appearance and Charisma - the "wallflower", a beautiful but shy character who wins people over if they look at her/him, but isn't good at getting their attention in the first place. The ur-example would be Disney's portrayal of Snow White, who spends the entire classic cartoon proving her incompetence whenever she's awake and active, only to be persistently rescued by animals, dwarves, and princes whenever they notice how beautiful she is when sleeping. Such damsels are certainly a staple in genre fiction, and it's a bit of a problem that D&D doesn't offer you a way to build them...but it's not like they'd likely be player-characters, so ultimately the rules hardly need to accommodate them. If really wanting to evoke this sort of distinction, it'd work best to handle it as a Trait, or a combination of one Feat and one Flaw, whereby the character suffers a penalty to Charisma in situations relevant to command, persuasion, and the like, but gains a bonus for more passive applications in the Snow White vein. The result would hardly be much fun to roleplay, though. And in any event, such accomodations would most likely be abused by minmaxers in an effort to create the exact opposite, an ugly-as-sin character who enslaves people with his words (which, admittedly, describes many rather compelling fantasy protagonists, notably including Tyrion Lannister in "A Game of Thrones" and its sequels; there's no denying such a character is "very D&D", but a straight-up high Charisma is probably sufficient for modelling him, without attempting to cheese your way to an even better Bluff rating by tanking your Disguise check, or similar imbalances). The very idea of devoting any of your Point Buy rating to such a barely-relevant statistic, let alone upping the available Point-Buy to allow for its inclusion, is clearly just begging for trouble....

(As a footnote, my favorite interpretation of the "looks" mechanic comes from my very first roleplaying game, the ultra-complex HERO system, best known for its superhero version, "Champions". In HERO, all characters divide their "build points" among eight primary attributes, six derived attributes, and larger abilities such as Skills, Talents, Perquisites, and for superheroes of course Powers. A James Bond-type "heroic" character might be built on 50 or 100 points, while a superhero often has 200 or more, and such points are spent at various rates - 1 point of Strength costs you 1 build point, while 1 point in Dexterity will require 2 build points, since Dexterity has more applications. So if you're building James Bond, you'll probably spend 5 points to raise his Strength from the starting 10 to a modest rating, given that James isn't that brawny, but he's definitely at least at the human maximum of 20 Dexterity-wise, so you'll spend 20 points doubling his starting value there. Then you'll go on to the other base attributes, such as Intelligence, the Charisma-equivalent Presence, something equivalent to Stamina or Constitution whose exact term I forget, and a couple others unique to HERO rules. And finally, you'll buy his Comeliness - I believe that is the exact word they use. Each point of that costs half a build point. As best I recall, there are no other fractional costs in the entire system. This is because Comeliness does literally nothing specified in the rules; it's just another number to put on your sheet, which the GM might account for in the course of play, if he feels like it. You might as well buy James Bond up to a 30 in that, paying double for points beyond the human maximum, because it'll still only cost you 15 points.)
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Man in the Funny Hat » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:33 am

Tried it for a while back when UA first came out. Just meant that problems that Charisma had with people equating it directly to physical appearance were passed on to Comeliness instead, and Charisma then had even LESS appeal for players to put decent scores into, and I wasn't sure that was possible. It was treating the symptom not the actual problem (that charisma didn't do anything useful for the vast majority of characters); it solved nothing, therefore it was a useless and unnecessary change and was dropped.
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Dread Delgath » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:44 pm

No. I read it in UA when it came out and was not impressed. That did not deter many D&D players of the day who absolutely HAD to have it because it added "depth" to the game. They went on to adapt many other, overly complicated combat simulation rules that made me realize that solo D&D gaming was worth a shot.
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Havard » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:22 pm

Dread Delgath wrote:No. I read it in UA when it came out and was not impressed. That did not deter many D&D players of the day who absolutely HAD to have it because it added "depth" to the game. They went on to adapt many other, overly complicated combat simulation rules that made me realize that solo D&D gaming was worth a shot.


My group went through many different phases over the years when it comes to what additional rules to be used etc. I definitely understand the mindset of people wanting to add every additional rule they can find because it adds "realism", "depth" etc. At least that is something my group believed in for a time. I think it was just a natural stage of exploring new sides to the game.

These days though, I have a different mindset when it comes to additional rules. I like keeping things fairly simple and I am really hesitant to add rules that seem like they could slow down the pace of the game.

When it comes to ability scores, I prefer not having too many of them. I also think that ability scores ideally should have some game mechanical effects on the game beyond ability score checks. In the TSR Era editions, Strength, Dexterity and Constitution are much more useful to most characters than Int, Wis and Cha. I think Charisma would have been very important in the game mechanical sense if henchmen were a big part of the campaign, but that was rarely the case in my group.

Having Comeliness as a separate ability score seems superflous to me, but if it had some other game mechanical function on the game I might consider including it. Or if there was a character class that relied on this abiltiy score.

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Re: Comeliness

Postby Blackleaf » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:59 pm

*oops double post*
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Blackleaf » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:00 pm

When I read about it in UA is it struck me as fiddly and unneeded. I see that it appeared in that hilariously bad 'female gamers' article in Dragon. Was that its genesis?
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Dread Delgath » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:01 pm

Havard wrote:When it comes to ability scores, I prefer not having too many of them. I also think that ability scores ideally should have some game mechanical effects on the game beyond ability score checks. In the TSR Era editions, Strength, Dexterity and Constitution are much more useful to most characters than Int, Wis and Cha. I think Charisma would have been very important in the game mechanical sense if henchmen were a big part of the campaign, but that was rarely the case in my group.


Henchmen should have had a bigger part in every game, as they are in the rules, however, less so in BX and BECMI versions than AD&D rules. But, as I am reading about different groups, one of the least common denominators is that everyone poo-pooed henchmen, or even having an ally NPC tag along because that NPC would steal xp, gold, treasure, etc. from the party, or betray them at the drop of a hat.

Of course, it is the players' choice to have or not have henchmen, and I feel that they do add something to the game, on more than one level, but unfortunately, every group I've played with automatically dismissed the idea of hiring henchmen because they're bad.

Yes, you have to pay them. Yes, they take a portion of total XP from the party's total and then they only advance at half the rate. No, they don't always steal treasure, but, if you don't treat them fairly, they could leave the party when their added numbers could swing the tide of battle when the party desperately needs it. Oh, hey... Charisma may not be the dump stat everyone thinks it is! ;)

Oh, and for that matter, I've never heard of a squad of men-at-arms stay loyal to the party because of the Paladin's Comliness score. :lol:
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Havard » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:18 pm

Dread Delgath wrote:
Havard wrote:When it comes to ability scores, I prefer not having too many of them. I also think that ability scores ideally should have some game mechanical effects on the game beyond ability score checks. In the TSR Era editions, Strength, Dexterity and Constitution are much more useful to most characters than Int, Wis and Cha. I think Charisma would have been very important in the game mechanical sense if henchmen were a big part of the campaign, but that was rarely the case in my group.


Henchmen should have had a bigger part in every game, as they are in the rules, however, less so in BX and BECMI versions than AD&D rules. But, as I am reading about different groups, one of the least common denominators is that everyone poo-pooed henchmen, or even having an ally NPC tag along because that NPC would steal xp, gold, treasure, etc. from the party, or betray them at the drop of a hat.

Of course, it is the players' choice to have or not have henchmen, and I feel that they do add something to the game, on more than one level, but unfortunately, every group I've played with automatically dismissed the idea of hiring henchmen because they're bad.

Yes, you have to pay them. Yes, they take a portion of total XP from the party's total and then they only advance at half the rate. No, they don't always steal treasure, but, if you don't treat them fairly, they could leave the party when their added numbers could swing the tide of battle when the party desperately needs it. Oh, hey... Charisma may not be the dump stat everyone thinks it is! ;)

Oh, and for that matter, I've never heard of a squad of men-at-arms stay loyal to the party because of the Paladin's Comliness score. :lol:


I started out with BECMI so that might be part of the reason too, but I think the main reason we usually didn't bring retainers along in adventures was that the players felt like one character sheet was more than enough to handle and the DM had enough of a job running the monsters. There was also the greed bit about sharing treasure and such.

My theory is that in those early days, playing styles were changing even as TSR were designing the rulesets. That mean't that the rulesets made a lot of assumptions that were not necessarily true for the games being run. I guess this is always going to be the case since there are so many ways to play, but I think it might have been even more of an issue when the hobby was still so young.

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Re: Comeliness

Postby Alzrius » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:20 pm

I wrote a blog article about Comeliness several months ago. It was mostly spotlighting the fact that Polyhedron #89 stealth-included the Comeliness rules into 2E as it was used in Living City tournaments. It essentially made it a watered-down Charisma, affecting only your reaction adjustments.
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Illuminatus » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:54 pm

The 2e Skills and Powers supplement has a system for splitting ALL the ability scores into subcomponents, and includes an Appearance ability. For people who really wanted the game to grind to a halt in subcharts and details…

Back in the day it used to bother me somewhat that so many human traits were crammed together into six scores…every character with a great memory was also great at deductive reasoning, every character with nimble fingers was also agile. Every compelling leader was staggeringly handsome. But I got over that. For the sake of playability, as Havard noted above, you have to accept a level of simplification.

What’s weird to me is that 1e Unearthed Arcana ONLY split charisma and comeliness. It’s AT LEAST as weird to have dexterity and agility as one ability, and much more game-relevant, so why split off comeliness? I have a suspicion that the score was used more to quantify the attractiveness of NPCs than for any PC use.
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Big Mac » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:32 pm

Illuminatus wrote:The 2e Skills and Powers supplement has a system for splitting ALL the ability scores into subcomponents, and includes an Appearance ability. For people who really wanted the game to grind to a halt in subcharts and details…


I never knew that!

I gave up playing D&D during the 2nd Edition Era and only came back after a LARP friend got us to play in a 3rd Edition game of Froggoten Realms. :mrgreen:

Illuminatus wrote:Back in the day it used to bother me somewhat that so many human traits were crammed together into six scores…every character with a great memory was also great at deductive reasoning, every character with nimble fingers was also agile. Every compelling leader was staggeringly handsome. But I got over that. For the sake of playability, as Havard noted above, you have to accept a level of simplification.

What’s weird to me is that 1e Unearthed Arcana ONLY split charisma and comeliness. It’s AT LEAST as weird to have dexterity and agility as one ability, and much more game-relevant, so why split off comeliness? I have a suspicion that the score was used more to quantify the attractiveness of NPCs than for any PC use.


I suppose the thing with increasing the number of stats is working out what to do with them.

3rd Edition Skills kind of work a bit like attribute checks (although 3e turns D&D stats into plusses or minuses to a d20 roll instead). But it's a different way of doing things that splitting the attributes themselves.
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Re: Comeliness

Postby Dread Delgath » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:41 am

Big Mac wrote:I gave up playing D&D during the 2nd Edition Era and only came back after a LARP friend got us to play in a 3rd Edition game of Froggoten Realms. :mrgreen:


I'd gladly play in the Froggoten Realms! I know of many adventures that would fit: DA2: Temple of the Frog, Dyson Logos' mini dungeon: Lair of the Frogs, RRP1 "Hell Comes to Frog Town" and the inevitable sequel RRP2 "Return to Frog Town", :lol: just to name a few! ;)
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