Does anybody have an index of 2ED rogue classes?

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thorr-kan
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Does anybody have an index of 2ED rogue classes?

Post by thorr-kan »

I suspect the Wikipedia entry is lacking.

Specifically, I'm looking for rogue classes. The idea of a thieves guild in a large city has been tickling my fancy lately...

There's thief and bard from the PH, gypsy from Domains of Dread, shadow walker from Wizards & Rogues of the Realms, and assassin from The Scarlet Brotherhood.

(ETA: And ninja from...Complete Ninja. duh.)
(ETA: Correct Subject, so I can find it again for reference.)
Last edited by thorr-kan on Thu May 11, 2017 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by AuldDragon »

thorr-kan wrote:I suspect the Wikipedia entry is lacking.

Specifically, I'm looking for rogue classes. The idea of a thieves guild in a large city has been tickling my fancy lately...

There's thief and bard from the PH, gypsy from Domains of Dread, shadow walker from Wizards & Rogues of the Realms, and assassin from The Scarlet Brotherhood. ETA: And ninja from...Complete Ninja. duh.
There is also the Spirit Warrior in the Ninja's Handbook, and the Trader in the Revised Dark Sun campaign setting. Dragon #247 had the Taltos, as well, and the Temporal Raider from the Chronomancer supplement was a multi-class Chronomancer/Thief in a single class package.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by thorr-kan »

AuldDragon wrote:There is also the Spirit Warrior in the Ninja's Handbook, and the Trader in the Revised Dark Sun campaign setting. Dragon #247 had the Taltos, as well, and the Temporal Raider from the Chronomancer supplement was a multi-class Chronomancer/Thief in a single class package.
Spirit Warrior's kind special, isn't it? Ninja kit, but different XP table, HD, and fluff.

I didn't know about Trader; that's an interesting read, and it would fit right in.

Taltos is *perfect* and gives me a rogue divine caster. Cool.

Temporal Raider just screams Rifts, so I'll let that one lie.

Thanks!

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by thorr-kan »

Guilder from Birthright's Havens of the Great Bay. Middle classers with NWP'R'US!

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by AuldDragon »

Aren't those all 1st Edition classes?

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by Teazia »

Are they? Then why are they on a 2e site?

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by Havard »

It appears to be an attempt to map classes from all TSR editons of D&D and AD&D. Although the introduction says the list is complete, it doesnt appear to actually be so.

Still it could be a good start.

Edit: Hmm...actually I cant find any classes from the 2nd Ed era here at all. Very odd.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by AuldDragon »

Havard wrote:Edit: Hmm...actually I cant find any classes from the 2nd Ed era here at all. Very odd.
Only the listings for the Monk from Scarlet Brotherhood and Spells & Magic (the Complete Priest's Handbook is also listed, but it is a kit) are from 2e. There are a few entries from Dragon magazine in the year 1990 after 2e debuted, but they are all 1e classes.
Teazia wrote:Are they? Then why are they on a 2e site?

Strange
Well, they also host a Sage Advice section that includes pre-2e material. It's probably a simple case of someone who works on the site had it sitting around on their computer and decided to publish it.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by agathokles »

IIRC, Tales of the Lance has a Handler class for Kenders. Dark Sun has the Trader, but also a Bard class which is different from the standard Bard (it is actually a poison-based assassin).

However, for a Thieves' Guild I'd probably use the character kits in the Complete Thief's Handbook rather than new classes, as they make up a coherent set rather than a diverse collection -- classes from various supplements tend to overlap (e.g., Trader vs Guilder) or to be specialized for a setting (Handler, Ninja).

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by AuldDragon »

agathokles wrote:However, for a Thieves' Guild I'd probably use the character kits in the Complete Thief's Handbook rather than new classes, as they make up a coherent set rather than a diverse collection -- classes from various supplements tend to overlap (e.g., Trader vs Guilder) or to be specialized for a setting (Handler, Ninja).
I'd second that. You can also add some thief kits from other sources like the Locksmith from the Complete Book of Dwarves, and most of the thief kits from the Complete Book of Gnomes and Demihumans of the Realms.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by thorr-kan »

It's true that thieves would probably be better for a thieves' guild campaign. But the more I think about my players, the more I think a "Rogues of the Neighborhood" would run better.

Maybe the Guild has collapsed, or they're the neighborhood watch. But I think the variety will be a selling point.

No kender. I'll play one, but I won't DM one. Yes, I'm a hypocrite.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

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thorr-kan wrote:No kender. I'll play one, but I won't DM one. Yes, I'm a hypocrite.
Wait; I take that back. One of the ladies in the Friday Night Gaming group would be a perfect kender. She's always tired because of her job hours and has the personality of a cat (self-described). She'd be perfect!

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by thorr-kan »

So, discussion and some light reading ends up the following Rogue classes:
Rogue Classes
Player's Handbook
-Thief
-Bard
Domains of Dread
-Gypsy
Wizards & Rogues of the Realms
-Shadow Walker
Scarlet Brotherhood
-Assassin
Complete Book of Ninja
-Ninja
Dark Sun Campaign Setting, Revised
-Courtier (bard; I renamed it, since we already have a bard from the PH)
-Trader
Dragon #247
-Taltos
Haven's of the Great Bay
-Guilder
Tales of the Lance
-Con artists/Prestidigitators
-Handler
Masque of the Red Death
-Tradesman

That's quite some variety, there. Add some kits on top of the classes, and you could have a really fun rogues game.

(ETA Tradesman, from Masque of the Red Death.)
(ETA Con artists/Prestidigitators, from Tales of the Lance.)
(ETA removed Hishnashaper/Plumaweaver, from Maztica. Fascinating, but kits, not classes.)
(ETA Courtier (bard), from Dark Sun Campaign Setting, Revised.)
Last edited by thorr-kan on Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:48 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by Peter »

Yes, in my signature.

I only kept the newest version of each class.

An earlier version of it can be found here https://docs.google.com/uc?export=downl ... E1uNjZEX0E
This one contains the duplicates.

NOTE: Besides Classes, Races, and Kits, the rest of the AD&D index is incomplete.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by thorr-kan »

Ah, I missed one. Tradesman from Masque of the Red Death.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by thorr-kan »

Con artists/Prestidigitators are called out twice as under listings of rogue classes in Tales of the Lance, so I've added them to my list.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by thorr-kan »

After some discussion here:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17718

I'm adding plumaweaver and hishnashapers to the list. More divine spellcasting rogues.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED rogue classes?

Post by thorr-kan »

In the interests of fairness and thoroughness (because, hey! more rogues are better!), I went back and reviewed the Temporal Raider and the Dark Sun bard.

Temporal Raider does server a rogue-like function, but it is a subclass of a wizard subclass. I'm going to pass on that.

Dark Sun bard. The more I look at it, the more I like it. Thief skills, bard abilities, poison use. But no spells or scroll use. This is unique enough that I've reconsidered my former apathy.

The only problem is the name. Core PH has a bard, so the DS bard needs a new name. What do you call an entertainer/poisoner/assassin? I was thinking courtier, but I'm open to suggestions.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED rogue classes?

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thorr-kan wrote:The only problem is the name. Core PH has a bard, so the DS bard needs a new name. What do you call an entertainer/poisoner/assassin? I was thinking courtier, but I'm open to suggestions.
The incomperable Giacomo! King of Jesters, and Jester to the king!

Assassin Bard? Killer Bard? I got nothin.
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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED rogue classes?

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Lord Torath wrote:
thorr-kan wrote:The only problem is the name. Core PH has a bard, so the DS bard needs a new name. What do you call an entertainer/poisoner/assassin? I was thinking courtier, but I'm open to suggestions.
The incomperable Giacomo! King of Jesters, and Jester to the king!

Assassin Bard? Killer Bard? I got nothin.
We've gotta Jester kit.

And I'm not naming an evil, assassinating, bard kit after Danny Kaye! He deserves better than that! :shock:

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED rogue classes?

Post by Lord Torath »

Uh, Giacomo was the assassin, not Hubert Hawkins (Danny Kaye). ;)

Still, we can't really call the class "Giacomo".

Maybe the Sinister Jester? Assassin-Bard? Bardassin? Assassard? Deadly Entertainer?
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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED rogue classes?

Post by thorr-kan »

Lord Torath wrote:Uh, Giacomo was the assassin, not Hubert Hawkins (Danny Kaye). ;)
And who was Hawkins impersonating 2/3s of the film? The King o' Jesters and Jester to Kings! :P

(To anybody who hasn't seen The Court Jester, shame on you! Danny Kaye is a genius, and you oughta view his entire filmography. Right now. Including the Christmas stuff. My opinion is unbiased. Completely. Really.)
Lord Torath wrote:Still, we can't really call the class "Giacomo".

Maybe the Sinister Jester? Assassin-Bard? Bardassin? Assassard? Deadly Entertainer?
The more historical and period reading I do, the more I lean towards Courtier. *Nobody* has a good opinion of anybody with that title.

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED classes?

Post by thorr-kan »

thorr-kan wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 3:16 pm
After some discussion here:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17718

I'm adding plumaweaver and hishnashapers to the list. More divine spellcasting rogues.
After a more thorough reading of the Maztica boxed set, I've changed my mind about the plumaweaver and hishnashapers. While fascinating, these really are thief kits and not subclasses.

For me the telling bit is on p58-59
"Choosing a Kit
A character cannot enter one of these orders as a first level neophyte—-both the knightly orders and the magical artisanships, require experience and knowledge to employ.
Consequently, a character need not announce his intention to enter one of these categories until he has earned enough experience points to achieve the third level of experience. At this point, he must declare for one of these types, if he intends to pursue that calling."

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Re: Does anybody have an index of 2ED rogue classes?

Post by agathokles »

thorr-kan wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:50 am
The only problem is the name. Core PH has a bard, so the DS bard needs a new name. What do you call an entertainer/poisoner/assassin? I was thinking courtier, but I'm open to suggestions.
Courtier looks fine for use in a campaign. However, for discussion I think Athasian Bard provides an unambiguous reference.

GP

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