Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

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Sturm
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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Sturm » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:20 am

Aquapopulus war only appears in XSOLO, IIRC. Later in the fan almanacs there is a Thyatian-Twaelar empire war in Thanegioth but it was in 1017 AC so after the expedition.

Thanks for the pregens info, I will finish look into them too in these days as I am looking through all the Karameikos adventures for my article in incoming Threshold 22, the ones in Hail the Heroes and DDA could fit well in the timeline indeed, I will create names for them.

Agathokles is probably right about Yarol not risking a son, unless he has a minor son who insisted very much. But a secretary also could work as his representative. I will think about this a bit more and then complete the crew.

Other parties will certainly be interested in the expedition. A Knight of the Griffon could be present and also someone from the Merchants Guild. All these people will have divided loyalties, making the trip more interesting :)

One or two of the adventuring groups in Threshold issue 21 could also be present.

Karameikos between 1,010 and 1,019 AC has also two expedition to the Hollow World and one to study the Behemoth, so some adventurers could be present in those ones instead..

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Robin » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:14 pm

I already thought something, as I could not find anything even relatable in canon.
Then my suggestion the aquapopulus war could have happened in the (maybe early ) life of the character Kuat may be even right.
This war ...and maybe more similar small conflicts to the islands...may have been the incentive or final trigger to the Twaelar/Thyatian war in the fan almanacs...a sort of pre-war, or early conflicts....as such I would deem these not large scale but large enough for a small island community to see it as a war...gain hatred to all the merrow and waterborne creatures...or at least decreased sentiment.

I really sought it out, and I felt these would certainly fit the bill.

I agree too, the secretary would be more logical indeed.
A Knight of the Griffon, A merchat guild member, one or two agents of the Iron Ring, and/or other thieves guild, a Lycanthrope, and maybe a Tabi would be interesting as addons to the crew. Or even a merrow maiden which fell in love with a beautiful young man on board secretly following the ship with her dolphin driven wagon...maybe even she is followed for abandoning the family...etc

T21 group members seems ok indeed, although I would take a few only, not the group.

Yes. Karameikos has turned to Global exploration and attempts to understand the world seemingly. Political alliances are made, racial or local happenings are made to understood, Karameikos will certainly rise a step in scholarship level when these heroes all return with their knowledge
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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Patrick » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:25 am

I'm late to this thread, but very cool idea!
AllanP wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:08 pm
Maybe one author could start the voyage off, getting them to one situation in none issue ; and then another author could chart the next leg of the voyage up to a another location in the next issue; then over to another author for the next part and so on...?
Any views?
Sounds like a really neat way to handle it! I like using the pregen characters from Lathan's Gold and Hail the Heroes, maybe some of the other Karameikos sources. Not so sure about X6 or X9... the recommendations to retrofit them into the distant past make them kind of iffy. Not sure whether it makes sense to plan longer-term or just see where the voyage goes, but by 1013 there should be widespread rumors of the Red Curse spreading throughout the Savage Coast, so it might make sense for The Pioneer to steer clear, exploring the cost of Davania instead on its journey west.

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Sturm » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:28 am

I think however they could gather enough info in Slagovich to protect themselves with cynnabril. Slagovich surely trades with the Savage Coast nations.

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Robin » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:09 am

And, you are not directly affected by the Red Curse, First it seems to affect only those coming on land and residing there more than a month (this was noted by the original Red Curse by Bruce Heard in Dragon Magazine, an mentioned in the readjusted AD&D2 version in the boxed set. This was due the fact that the curse was spawned around the Cinnabar in the ground(as per Bruce Heard)
so it might be that you could normally visit these settlements along the Savage Coast without ever being affected by the Red Curse, as long as you take in fresh air(and maybe even water/provisions) longer than the time you spend there, yet still seeing affected individuals/creatures...something threatening and strange.
Keep in mind the curse also seems to leave you when more than a month away from the source,...so even if affected, you will eventually normalize...elsewhere
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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Sturm » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:39 am

Ok thanks, I did not recall well the difference in the curse between Bruce's version and the AD&D version. The latter says "Non-natives are completely unaffected for a numbcr of dayes equal to their Constitution. One day later, the Legacy manifests.
So the crew will likely learn in Slagovich they can safely stay for at least a week in each port...

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Robin » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:44 am

Sturm wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:39 am
Ok thanks, I did not recall well the difference in the curse between Bruce's version and the AD&D version. The latter says "Non-natives are completely unaffected for a numbcr of dayes equal to their Constitution. One day later, the Legacy manifests.
So the crew will likely learn in Slagovich they can safely stay for at least a week in each port...
I myself despise the boxed AD&D2 set on Red Steel and especially the Red Curse and its effects....They turned it (in my opinion) in a powerhungry unbalanced mass which the original balanced creation of Bruce in Dragon 171 &172 did not have. I always turn to the simple mechanics of Bruce in respect to the curse. And those few interesting things of the Boxed set I twist it back into that fold...instead using the illogical assumptions and effects in the boxed set. Of the boxed set, the maps can be used, to find locations and where the curse affects (although I do not understand the sudden increase of so many ruins on the color map of the locations Bruce made....and I keep using the maps of Bruce (and the remade versions of our Thorfinn). The creatures can also be used, and even the smokepowder(although the discovery of gunpowder on Mystara suggested by Bruce Heard in Dragon 199(Ready, Aim, Fire) would soon replace this smoke powder
I reconverted all statistics in the boxed set back to BECMI adding most new information of the boxed set (thus making it much better and more balanced;P)


Dragon 172;
If a Savage Coast native left his home, the seed of cinnabar poison in his blood would eventually pass out of his body, breaking his body’s delicate balance with the metal cinnabryl. Remember: Cinnabryl is poisonous to uncontaminated people (see DRAGON issue #171).
Dragon 171;
Seed of cinnabar: This poisonous mineral compound exists in everything at varying concentrations, including in food and water. It impairs the mental performances of contaminated people, limiting them to Intelligence and Wisdom scores of 3d4. A spell-caster is limited to spell levels equal to his appropriate ability score (Intelligence for wizards, Wisdom for clerics) minus 9. The poison also reduces the life expectancy of all life forms by 20%.Seed of cinnabar is a very slow poison, needing a week of cumulative exposure per point of Constitution to affect game attributes, and a month of exposure per point of Constitution to affect longevity.Native life is automatically affected at birth. Animal and vegetable ecology maintained its balance with quicker proliferation. Effects on mental performance subside within 20 weeks (minus one week per point of the character’s Constitution score) of avoidance of contact with the poison, but the shortened life expectancy is permanent. Seed of cinnabar can be made into a powder and stored in a pouch.
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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Patrick » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:55 am

Agreed, they can visit the Savage Coast and (at least mostly) dodge the curse. But if they do any intelligence-gathering in Tyjaret, Yavdlom, or Kladanovic, it seems reasonably likely that they'd opt for the southern route--Slagovich is well out of their way.

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Robin » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:21 am

Patrick wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:55 am
Agreed, they can visit the Savage Coast and (at least mostly) dodge the curse. But if they do any intelligence-gathering in Tyjaret, Yavdlom, or Kladanovic, it seems reasonably likely that they'd opt for the southern route--Slagovich is well out of their way.
Hmm looking at the map and the know really good harbours(with trade options) or even the known lesser ones, it seems to me that nearly ANY vessel going west, southwest beyond Sind will have to visit Slagovich. The great distance between Darokin/Minrothad , with none or bad ports along this western route including going along Thanagioth Archipelago to any other destination seems enforcing this...(in respect to crew food/water/medicin/components/maps,etc).
If the intend was to visit the southern continent, I think they would go south over the sea of Dread and visit the harbours there, while going west. not only is this safer (mid sea is less safe, travelling with a coast in sight is safer) it also spurs investigations, trade, political relations, exploration, and of course easier intake of needed supplies as more ports are there than along the more northern route.

having spoken with real life old sailors/shippers every vessel (even those before their days) was almost required to settle on land every 4 weeks or so at worst or the morale of the crew would deteriorate rapidly. in game terms I would decrease the morale of all individuals by 1 for each week after the 4th week without the chance of setting shore. Doing this individually will be a heck of a work, yet it makes clearer which individuals are more easy to revolt and attempt a mutiny to the DM. Being in a port is not enough...the crew must be able to be onland a minimum of 8 hours to nullify this morale effect (by the use if walking but also eating/drinking/overdrinking/skirmish/sex/trade/visually/olfactorial explore
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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Sturm » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:53 am

Still the Traladaran cities of the Gulf of Hule are likely to be a primary objective of the voyage. Davania too could be interesting for them, but I will also take into account winds and such to determine the exact route..

Good morale rule Robin, will use it!

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Robin » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:47 pm

Sturm wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:53 am
Still the Traladaran cities of the Gulf of Hule are likely to be a primary objective of the voyage. Davania too could be interesting for them, but I will also take into account winds and such to determine the exact route..

Good morale rule Robin, will use it!
I thought the same. If taking the Northern Route the would indeed visit the Gulf of Hule. It is primarily ordained by the current and dominant winds to go that way.
Going south would indeed be possible and then go west, I feel this route is taken more often and maybe less interesting (as of yet), also the current and wind seems to be against the wwestern direction there, so maybe it is best for the route back?


Thanx
An old teacher of mine was a shipper to antarctica and south america, i was invited to meet some old (almost ancient) colleques of him,...I learned a lot

To make the system the easiest to use.
List all crew members by name and individual morale (2d6 average 7) in a single sheet and column. then add the penalty after 4 weeks no shore and all temporary adjustments
Those with an adjusted morale below 5 would be inclined to disobey, below 3 would surely rebel if given the chance. above 9 crew is very content, and those above 10 will do almost anything

I would add a negative temporary penalty of 1 for each of the following
1--when food and/or water and/or booze are restricted if low in ammount,
2--a disease(including Lycanthropy/Undead) runs rampant,
3--being understaffed due sickness, disease, plunder, or monster attacks
4--Clear bad omen sighted (only experienced sailors know these; killing an Albatros, fairy lights on sea, a dolphin landing on board, catching a merrow accidently, the ships cat sickens or dies or is gone, visions(Immortal/ghost)
5--ship is damaged and needs serious repair
6--sighting a ghost ship
7--boarding a ghostship
8--saving a rafter
9--Having Red or Black sails (white, creme, brown, beige are acceptable)
10--sudden windfall to 0
11--any individual crew member put in the brig for disobeying will suffer a individual -1 on morale

I would add a positive temporary adjustment of 1 for each of the following
1--when food and/or water and/or booze are abundant in ammount,
2--being understaffed due sickness, disease, plunder, or monster attacks
3--Clear good omen sighted (only experienced sailors know these; Albatros lands on mast or deck and accepts food, laterns seem to shed more light(this is a normal effects and in real life sighted on areas of sea producing more oxygen), captain wins friendly dice game with crew
4--dolphins travelling with the vessel,
5--Sighting a Narwhal, the ships cat gets offspring.
6--nets capture lots of herring (best and most eaten fish worldwide)
7--sinking a ghostship
8--catch lost cargo or useful ship debris
9--Excellent wind (strong in desired direction)
10-- any individual crew member reinstated rehonored will receive a individual +1 on morale

All these adjustments last no longer than a day, or as long as the cause applies
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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Patrick » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:44 pm

Robin wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:47 pm
Sturm wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:53 am
Still the Traladaran cities of the Gulf of Hule are likely to be a primary objective of the voyage. Davania too could be interesting for them, but I will also take into account winds and such to determine the exact route..
I thought the same. If taking the Northern Route the would indeed visit the Gulf of Hule. It is primarily ordained by the current and dominant winds to go that way.
Going south would indeed be possible and then go west, I feel this route is taken more often and maybe less interesting (as of yet), also the current and wind seems to be against the wwestern direction there, so maybe it is best for the route back?
From an omniscient perspective, it makes a lot more sense to send an expedition to the Gulf of Hule and then straight back to try to establish connections. But of course, the funders of The Pioneer are operating from a limited set of information, so it seems reasonable for their objectives to include both trying to establish relations with the City-States and trying to circumnavigate the globe.

Robin, what current/wind maps are you looking at that make a northern route seem like the best choice? Both Thorff's (https://i2.wp.com/www.thorfmaps.com/wp- ... mate-1.png) and Bruce Heard's (https://bruce-heard.blogspot.com/2012/1 ... imate.html) maps seem to indicate that, once they're south of Thanegia Island (I think a ship big enough to circumnavigate the globe won't be able to make it through the Dire Straits), the winds and currents will favor following the Davania coast.

As for "taken more often and maybe less interesting," I think you're referring to just the southward journey across the Sea of Dread. If there's been a story kind of like VotPA that follows the northern Davania coast, I missed it.

The Morale rules look great!

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Sturm » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:24 pm

Indeed it seems it should be easier to pass Thanegia south to Davania, but still Slagovitch has to be important for them, so let's see what the winds will do :) BTW if they are not returned yet in 1019 AC, probably they had some difficulties in their route :)

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Robin » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:08 pm

Patrick wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:44 pm
Robin, what current/wind maps are you looking at that make a northern route seem like the best choice? Both Thorff's (https://i2.wp.com/www.thorfmaps.com/wp- ... mate-1.png) and Bruce Heard's (https://bruce-heard.blogspot.com/2012/1 ... imate.html) maps seem to indicate that, once they're south of Thanegia Island (I think a ship big enough to circumnavigate the globe won't be able to make it through the Dire Straits), the winds and currents will favor following the Davania coast.

As for "taken more often and maybe less interesting," I think you're referring to just the southward journey across the Sea of Dread. If there's been a story kind of like VotPA that follows the northern Davania coast, I missed it.
I really can't remember which one I had in my heasd, probable a precursor of Thorf maps in this, or it was based on the patterns in the Minrothad/Ierendi Gazeteers or TSR 9079 - X7 - The War Rafts of Kron adventure. As I see on the maps you show, it is indeed more logical to follow the Davanian coast line as you say, yet this is fully dependant on what the intended goal harbor is (as Sturm suggested).
I also think, any ship (with excellent quality maps and lead-bearers (depth meters)) will be able to go Through the Dhiki-Nimazi (Dire Straits), as when looking at the depths in the X6-TSR9081-D&D-Mystara-Quagmire!
Patrick wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:44 pm
The Morale rules look great!
Thanks :lol: ...and based on real world experience through the ages :ugeek: ; Thank to the Late English Teacher Stephen...?? and his friend/colleagues of those days.(I forgot his family name after 20 years orso...even still he passed away in 1993?? :? , he was an awesome teacher ;) ..he learned us morse, and everything of Antarctica and the ships there. I have heard --and read--many stories happening there--of which many touch the borders of imagination and phantasy :o )
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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Gravesguardian » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:49 am

You might want to give the ship's Magic-User a couple of apprentices and the ship's Cleric a couple of acolytes. Perhaps add in a Minrothad (sp?) Merchant-Prince as the Quartermaster, since their spells & skills would be a great benefit. The apprentices/acolytes could even help w/ laundry and cooking.

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Sturm » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:21 am

Indeed but I am not sure if the Merchant-Prince could be willing to partecipate in a foreign expedition, maybe only for some relevant advantage?
Sure apprentices and acolytes must be present.

The Dhiki-Namazzi indeed allows to shorten the route considerably, but I do not think the Pioneer will take it. They must want to visit Tanakumba, as a major location and possible trading partner.

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Robin » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:50 am

Is Tanakumba then an interesting Trading partner? they do not grow a lot there, as being more primitive...or do they desire to meet a Seer to see some of the future?
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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Sturm » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:59 am

I just think they must have heard of Yavdlom, so they will wish to visit it surely.

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Robin » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:40 pm

It is an interesting location to visit...indeed
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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Gravesguardian » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:43 pm

Sturm wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:21 am
Indeed but I am not sure if the Merchant-Prince could be willing to partecipate in a foreign expedition, maybe only for some relevant advantage?
Sure apprentices and acolytes must be present.

The Dhiki-Namazzi indeed allows to shorten the route considerably, but I do not think the Pioneer will take it. They must want to visit Tanakumba, as a major location and possible trading partner.
#1. MP could be an equal partner helping to pay for the trip.
#2. The trip could be a joint venture between Karameikos & Minrothad.
#2a. The trip is a joint effort by Darokin, Karameikos & Minrothad - so the MP is joined by members of the DDC.
#3.The MP wants to make a name for his/her-self & is using the family fortune to fund the trip, so that his/her name goes into the history books as the 1st to sail around the world.
#4. The MP joined the crew under orders from the Minrothad leadership to spy & keep Minrothad appraised of anything they discover. (If the MP survives to see Minrothad again, the leadership will erase the criminal record that made them chose that MP to begin.)

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Patrick » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:42 am

Robin wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:50 am
Is Tanakumba then an interesting Trading partner? they do not grow a lot there, as being more primitive...or do they desire to meet a Seer to see some of the future?
Per the AC 1018 Almanac (http://www.pandius.com/yavdlom3.html), "Tanakumba, and the rest of Yavdlom with it, has grown into a prosperous place, with traders from Kastelios, Sind, Minrothad, Ierendi, and other lands vying for a share of the lucrative trade in sugar, coffee, cocoa, and other exotic goods." Sounds to me like Karameikos would want a piece of that (though a there-and-back expedition would be a better choice for establishing trade relations).

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Sturm » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:34 am

Definitely, Yavdlom must be a stop.

About the Merchant Prince I like all options 2a, 3 and 4. Possibly a disgraced one has been sent to redeem himself/herself. I would have to read some material to identify him/her...

If a Minrothad representative is present however, it is likely those from the WDL would be too, so one for Ierendi, one for the Shires and one for Darokin at least.

This could also be interesting as later in the fan almanacs Minrothad becomes an Exarchate of Thyatis, so the members of the WDL could not be very happy to let him/her return with a treasure wealth of informations to share with Minrothad and Thyatis, or at least be divided about it, as Darokin and Karameikos after 1,017 AC clearly become a bit more friendly to Thyatis, while this is not the case for the Shires and Ierendi.

There is also the matter of Sind and Jaibul, controlled by the Master until 1,016 AC. The Pioneer would not be able to use those ports, so it would have to go from Ierendi city directly to the Barren Plains and Tyiaret, unless it risks picking up some Sindhi rebels in some hidden cove between Jahore and Sambay...

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Re: Ops everybody forgot about The Pioneer!

Post by Robin » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:17 pm

Patrick wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:42 am
Robin wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:50 am
Is Tanakumba then an interesting Trading partner? they do not grow a lot there, as being more primitive...or do they desire to meet a Seer to see some of the future?
Per the AC 1018 Almanac (http://www.pandius.com/yavdlom3.html), "Tanakumba, and the rest of Yavdlom with it, has grown into a prosperous place, with traders from Kastelios, Sind, Minrothad, Ierendi, and other lands vying for a share of the lucrative trade in sugar, coffee, cocoa, and other exotic goods." Sounds to me like Karameikos would want a piece of that (though a there-and-back expedition would be a better choice for establishing trade relations).
Ah...That one I do not possess..Thanx...that would make it interesting indeed and fruitful
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