1 Mile Hex Mapping

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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Havard » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:19 pm

Nice work Robin!

I never looked to closely at the Escape from Thunder Rift map, but I believe I reached similar conclusions as you based on the map in the novel.

Its nice to have it mapped out in more detail.

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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:00 pm

Havard wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:19 pm
Nice work Robin!

I never looked to closely at the Escape from Thunder Rift map, but I believe I reached similar conclusions as you based on the map in the novel.

Its nice to have it mapped out in more detail.

-Havard
Thanx Havard ;)
My ponderings on this were as followed;

According to the adventure in DMR1 DM Screen the Escape from Thunderrift, the Dimensional Pool enabled character to come AND go from Thunderrift. It also says that the pool they arrive in Karameikos is NOT magical. So it needs other ways to make the travel possible...probably it is controlled from the Dimensional Pool in Thunderrift.

The text to read to the PC's on page 19 &20 follows the map given there to some degree.
Strange rock formation resembling a sleeping child and a pond and a faint trail leading into the woods surrounding the glade, small sunlit glen on top of a hill, variety of trees surround the glade, --is the environmental information gained from this.

Reflecting this to the X1, Gaz1, B10 maps. The pool is placed just within the northern edge of the woods
https://www.deviantart.com/6inchnails/a ... -808511751

To make all the maps fitting the two southern hills/rock on the DMR1 map has to be converted back to B10/X1/Gaz 1/Penhaligon Trilogy(PHT) map information; meaning the SE rock becomes grasslands and the SW rock becomes moor (as the Gaz1map and even the PHT maps reveal this as an Northastern extension of the Kelvin Moor.)
The 2nd location on the DMR1 map (harpy hills/lair is a single hill described as such in the text, yet it lies on the edge of the moor as per Gaz1/B10 map
The DMR1 map has more flaws as the Northern Rocks are according B10/X1, Gaz1 a singular cliff, hence the redline becomes the top of this cliff. as the DMR1 also speaks of a ford to the otherside, while PHT state the same to the hillands NW of Bywater. This reveals the DMR1 as the opening between the two northern rocks and is further supported by the PHT sources.
And also makes the compas orientation of the map Nort being to the top of the map
Following the DMR1 map further we have Bywater at this ford. (the extra Bywatermap of this adventure does only vaguely resemble the original PHT Bywater map, and has even the current totally off ; it is actually the otherway around going from right to left ie; ne to SW.And the river is NOT the Castellan River but the Volaga/Highreach River, as can be seen from theGaz1/B10 and PHT maps.

Following the DMR1 map further the trail follows the river upstream on the southern shore. The DMR1 text reveals this as foothills while the gaz1/X1, B10 map reveals these as graslands; best to make these grassy hills so both canon sources are correct. The greenery/bushes spoken on page 26 is a very local set of bushes and no need to map.
Then there is a fan addition Sturm's 3.2 mile hex map) Seragrad. As it is not mentioned on the canon sources, I deem best to move this away from the trail, so it does not conflict canon, yet still adds to the map.

The B10 map reveals the cliffs at the Volaga Castellan river merging (where on the otherside of the river also the ruins of Xitaca are located hidden in the steep cliff crevaces). The trail goes along the edge of the eastern cliff passing the wolves den of B10 map, leading to the ruined tower of DMR1
The orc attack is of a small group of orcs, possibly the Yurilivsky orcs from Sturm 3.2 mile hex map. and might be relared to the same orcs of the PHT map in the "orc attack"marked location. They might also belong to Greastongues's tribe yet this may be the same as Sturm named.

The trail continues along the B10 cliffs and the Volaga River locating the Wizard's tower of DMR1 at its end.

All in all the section has become as followed;
Image
I will insert this section in the main map later.

My opinion on the DMR1 author(s); they have minor knowledge of Mystara/Karameikos, nil knowledge of B10, and probably has not even read PHT (or only skimmed it). The knowledge of orientation and mapping is way off the canon sources. Rivers flow different directions, are straightened, wrongly named, hills are placed as if logs were dropped and all detail of earlier sources is mostly ignored.

The artist of the PHT maps has used the Gaz1 and probably the X1 maps, (as the light forests and forested hills of the Gaz1 readjusted and Gaz1 are not used but the grasslands and bare hills are used instead.) The problem with these maps is that they resemble the canon foundation of X1/B10, yet placement of locations is hard.
To the Gaz1 and Gaz1 readjusted maps the following; the X1 map had a 6 mile hex, and gave the map great detail. The B10 map of 3 miles brought even more detail, and was the first were the Kelvin Moor was mentioned. The graaslands were were they had been on X1. The Gaz maps use another scale of 8 maps, and hence removed a heck of a lot of details used in X1 and B10, yet it place the Kelvin Moor, and brought more detail. however, the grasslands of X1 and B10 were suddenly lightforest, and many hills were forested hills. The graas turning into lightforest is a clear mistake. The detail missing due hexscale variation is something totally overseen, especially as this 8 mile map was used by both canon anmd fanon hence on. and just proagated the mistakes. Detail of valleys, river flows had been altered and just on later maps as if right were actually flawed....how great these maps are...but still.
The Gaz1 readjusted was based on gaz1 and actually only increased the amount of forested hills, with again some river shifting.
The fanbased maps of 3.2 miles per hex tried to bring mor detail where based on gaz1 and/or gaz1 readjusted , and while trying to bring more detail...they had not used the x1 or B10 maps (as Sturm acknowleged) to return to the original detail and created detail on their own imagination.
The greatest problem thus in these maps is again a river shifting, and mistakes of the valleys and mountains as per X1.
Fan maps going even further, increased these flaws even further. a clear example are the location size and shape of the Lake at Threshold and the rivers and hills close to Kelvin. no source is equal the Threshold lake especially not. the B10 source gave this lake a small surface, while later sources increased its size. as the only detail map of this lake is the redboxed map of threshold revealing the lake's southern edge, either source seems to be flawed and right in this case.

I hope my work here on this will illuminate/clarify and merge this without too much disruptions on either source.

Even though this map(section) will receive more details like altitudes, and such later, it can already be used in the DMR1 adventure to replace the map given there and being compatible with the canon sources and fanon sources. So If you read this Shawn. You can add it in this post of my on Pandius; http://pandius.com/bywater.html or make a seperate post linking them together and to the Escape of Thunderrift adventure
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:09 pm

Karameikos
In my canon research for Karameikos stuff I discovered there were no canon maps of Kelvin to be found
On the internet I could find the following fanon map (author unknown to me)
It is drawn in a style similar to the original Specularum map from the Gazetteer 1 Grand Duchy of Karameikos. So maybe it is the original author of that map.

I compiled it with other material of Kelvin
and slightly readjusted the map to add the information from the AD&D2 Karameikos Kingdom of Adventure boxed set about the canals and such.
And added a small inset map of Kelvin from my 1 mile hex map
To reveal it here to you
Hope you enjoy it.

Picture is link to the total art
Image

Added information;
Underneath Kelvin are the Ruins of Amen-Tiris...a Nithian style Traldar/Hutaakan city enabled in the marshlands due the maginative canal works of the Ruler of Amen-Tiris named Key-Haminteb
see also; viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21881#p232018
This city was erected on the ruins of an ancient unnamed Blackmoor town according the 3050BC maps
Ruins and some remaining structures of Amen-Tiris would remain in Kelvin up to today, and might be fully intact or used as a base to build upon/against.
The lower basements all might be the ruins of the Blackmoor settlement, as Nithians(RL Egyptians) only went underground in temples and mines and did not on do so with houses (other than cool basements of less than 5' sized), leaving the larger basements thus structures of the Blackmoor Era.
Outside the canals of Key-Haminteb are still visible, yet only a few are still in use (more or less as an enwalled creek) while most others in the moor are fully clogged by dirt and vegetation. Some primitive windmill ruins might have been attached to these waterworks...all in an attempt to increase the amount of fertile land for the city.
No wonder they heralded Key-Haminteb as the master of the canals and interred him as their culture did away from the settlement in the mountains in a tomb dedicated to him...where now Threshold lies upon.

I wonder what forgotten knowledge and items might be left behind underneath Kelvin. Some of the old Blackmoor locations might have found a new use, yet, as not all Blackmoor basements were attached to eachother, many would still remain undiacovered.
Although most will be empty and bear nothing but archeological information/value, some interesting items culd be discovered.
The inhabotants would be some undead, lowlife, and burrowing creatures...or citizens doing illegal stuff...like the iron ring.
Last edited by Robin on Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:21 pm

Karameikos
Filling in the Hills and Moor north of Kelvin , detailing will be done later.
Following the X1/B10 and the adjusted Gaz 1 map to do so. The B10 map did use hills symbols, yet not in all hexes, and these blank or text locations enable to create variety in the terrain.
Having done the Mountains I came upon the fanon implementation and great alteration of that area.
This enforces me to make two maps;
one which tries as strictly as possible to follow the canon and adding fanon where it is not conflicting the canon of X1/B10 and later sources.
and one which tries to follow canon as far as possible, adding fanon where it is not conflicting the canon of X1/B10 and later sources, yet also trying to follow the implementation of the fanon alteration of the region.
We will this have two maps a canon based and a canon-based with fanon addition.
The fanon variation will have Threshold somewhat more to the east as the Gazetteer map suggested, the canon map will have Threshold as per X1/B10, and continue implementing later material (like the KkoA adventure) based on that assumption. This will make a clear difference eventually between both maps

The following is what I have done thus far, I have to work do much more work than I estimated to do...drat
Image

Thus far I try to follow the given X1/B10 mountains with hexes, yet I already notice this is due the detailing impossible in the Lost Valley, Foamfire Valley and Threshold region. I ponder how to resolve this...probably following the lines and fill each side of this line according the terrain. just as I do with rivers and cliffs. Something to resolve later.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Sturm » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:24 am

Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:09 pm
In my canon research for Karameikos stuff I discovered there were no canon maps of Kelvin to be found
On the internet I could find the following fanon map (author unknown to me)
It is drawn in a style similar to the original Specularum map from the Gazetteer 1 Grand Duchy of Karameikos. So maybe it is the original author of that map.
That map is slightly modified from the canon map which was published in the Gazetteer 1 poster map, it seem only the "old canal" was added and also locations A and B.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:56 am

Sturm wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:24 am
Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:09 pm
In my canon research for Karameikos stuff I discovered there were no canon maps of Kelvin to be found
On the internet I could find the following fanon map (author unknown to me)
It is drawn in a style similar to the original Specularum map from the Gazetteer 1 Grand Duchy of Karameikos. So maybe it is the original author of that map.
That map is slightly modified from the canon map which was published in the Gazetteer 1 poster map, it seem only the "old canal" was added and also locations A and B.
Ah Thanx.
I totally overlooked it. So it is a canon map. I already thought the artist was the same as the Specularum mapper.
I found it on the internet, weirdly coloured, I readjusted the river which was a weird pinkish blue with lightblue color, added the old canal (based on the KkoA adventure descriptions), and the A =B locations were those found on the internet map, which did not bother me nor the map.
And added the other material I found befitting Kelvin to make it the compilation
I shrunk the map to befit the 1 mile scale (after some hefty recalculation and rescaling and added it thus to the 1 mile hex map, similar as Threshold and Specularum....which in the end have a aproximate similar sized surface....and that was a surprise.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:19 pm

Karameikos

Another save today
Boooring day. changing years/menopause I hate them :evil: :o :evil:
On the otherhand, I worked on the map now and advanced well
Filled in the mountain valleys and lost of white spots on the map
Maybe the next days more

Image

question
The overlapping 2300BC and 1000AC map reveals an interesting geological feature
https://sta.sh/0g6pycav9tq
Look at this section of the coastal region of Karameikos
Just below the compass sign
There is a miles long line.

Does any body know what this was ? a clif, a deep coastline a ravine, or else. ???
As such a feature would have left its marks.
Can anybody reveal to me details of this geological feature...preferably the 2300BC author(s)?
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:45 pm

Karameikos
So between the cramps, hot-flashes and moodswings I did a lot today.
I filled in the Thyatian edge as per Gaz 1/TM2 maps, using the X1 as overlap where possible.
brought more detail to the Zargash/Thunder mountains and inserted most of the B10 locations and succeeded to bring the Have region together as one.

Image

I also begun with the northern edge
Here I drew on my earlier East Canolbarth map, the X1 map and the B10 map.
And here I discovered my earlier flaw of not using a hex master to place the hexes on. Several hexes shiften along the edges, and are not in line. Something needed to repair. Glad today i always use a hex master.
As you might have seen on both maps is that I also follow the mountain ridgelines as per B10 map...It gives a great base for detail and flowpatterns tp work upon. although there are some issues needing to be resolved.
Image
As can be seen in the south eastern edge of the Canolbarth map section...I too fell into the trap of the 8 mile hexes, and as such this has to be restored too.
The Lost Valley I have worked upon several hours here...I am going to place it in the Karameikos map later.
I did use the detail map of the B10 Lost Valley...as the oldest most detailed source takes precedence, yet I discovered the artist made several flaws/discrapancies in size/scale on the region between the overall B10 and the detail maps. more on this later

When both maps are ready PC can already walk on mapped terrain from Specularum to the north of Ethengar .
Actually I have done a lot already. I'll give an overview soon.


question
The overlapping 2300BC and 1000AC map reveals an interesting geological feature
https://sta.sh/0g6pycav9tq
Look at this section of the coastal region of Karameikos
Just below the compass sign
There is a miles long line.

Does any body know what this was ? a clif, a deep coastline a ravine, or else. ???
As such a feature would have left its marks.
Can anybody reveal to me details of this geological feature...preferably the 2300BC author(s)?
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:42 pm

Karameikos
This is a compilation of the Karameikos/Five Shire region over a period of Time.
These are made by various mystara fans; Agathokles, Sturm (as far as iI know) with extra input by many others.
I need this to bring more detail to the 1 mile hex of Karameikos.
from 8000BC details can be retrieved which might have some effect on the 1 mile hex maps.
Image
Already I see cities ruined even before 3050BC in the Eokai region.
Many towns , and other ruins become visible, and could be placed on those locations.
One of these seems to be locatedon or close to current Mirros/Specularum
The Radiance line as discussed here; viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20277 and detailed here; https://breathofmystara.blogspot.com/20 ... -city.html
Many minor settlement/ruins are revealed by the being present if the races alone. How these are resolved is something of deeper study.

I definetly need to go much deeper into this when coming to adding details of the region. Any help would be more than welcome.

Not included in this compilation yet still used is the 2300BC detail map http://www.pandius.com/Mystara2300BC_So ... m_8mph.png
The Lakes in the north are mostly easily placed.
As the mountains are in my 1 mile hex map based on the X1 map, some might become different in shape and shift in location.
Especially the lake west of today Threshold, bothers me ..somewhat

The geological evolution also will give me headaches...
So again my question about the 2300BC region
who can help me there.



I can say one thing.
Not only did my preciseness of mapping going up by using hex masters (a pain in da but to mix them with my older maps where I did not), yet I also seem to be putting way more information in the maps seen geological, flowpatterns, ecological and cultural. Sometimes I find discrepancies in the fanon maps (like rivers flowing from one hil through a valley and then up another set of hills like in Morgreth) and need to be resolved. This is always hard as I truly enjoy all the canon AND fanon maps, and to tear them apart or adjust them to Geological/ecological/flowpatterns/cultural and according time of all other sources. sometimes they literally contradict in one location and add to another.
Cripes...what Have I done...what did I create....
these thoughts often run through my head while studying the sources, even before a create a single hex
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:55 pm

Added some knowledge on the Kelvin Post
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:06 pm

Karameikos

Feel a bit guilty not working on the Ethengar maps, yet feel content what is growing underneath my fingertips

Image

filled in the X1 lining ..the overall shape of the mountain become visible. It contradicts on several places with the local maps of Darokin by Mike Philips, Sturm, and Shawn Stanley, yet these were based clearly on the 8 mile hex maps and NOT the X1 map. I have to merge these later.

trying to merge my older Canolbarth map (based on no master hex, so has shifting hexes, especially on the sides).
The southeast corner was flawed (as the Canolbarth was based on the 8 mile hex and did not take into account the better detailed 6 mile hexes of X1. There is some major hex shifting along the eastern section of the Canolbarth map, which will be resolved later.
All this also means I have to update the Canolbarth east map, :o Sigh. first finishing this map, than copy paste the here corrected regions and then update on that map. :(
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:25 pm

I seem to find more and more interesting fan material on Karameikos,
http://ravensquill.blogspot.com/2016/01 ... ragan.html

or
https://42ducktape.blogspot.com/2017/03/
Who also discovered the discrepancies between the X1 and later 8 mile hexes.
His overlay clearly reveals the discrepancies of the later 8 mile versions and lack of detail
Thanx
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:37 pm

Karameikos
Couldn't sleep, ovaries overactive. energy has to go somewhere.
Frustration, and a mind which can't stop pondering,
Need rest, So Mapping it is.

Image
Filling in the area in between trying to resolve some of the hexshifting on the Darokin Hills

Pondering how to resolve the fanon maps with the canon in the mpuntain region east
Important logic; national borders are always created logical. mostly following rivers, mountains, forest edges, hilllines and such.
This means the given borders on the mountainous region would most probably follow the mountain ridges of the region. This means that where a border was created on the map, there are also mountain ridhes. as following B10 this seems to be consistent to X1 and B10. So I continue on that path.
Important note; the B10 clearly let the Duke's Road closly follow the Shuttergal(Hillfollow) River, and nlot like done in the later 8 mile hex maps let it bend to the east entering the mountains there. When merely seen to the 8 mile hexes that would seem reasonable, yet this is again a major shifting in the locations as given in canon X1/B10 due to the hex scale. As such I will follow the X1/B10 and shift all to the west as given there.
The Duke's Road Keep this will be on a formidable location. A small valley along the river, high up in the mountains on the only pass of the region. All seems to fit better, even when following the Gaz1 text combined by the X1/B10 instead the Gaz 8 mile hex map

The cold mountain ridges enclosing the lost Valley are clear now.
These give another reason than fear, politics, and the entry bridge being collapsedm why the hutaaka and the Traldar never left this valley; temperature!...Their beloved Footpad lizards are reptilian. On mystara mostly cold-blooded and need warmth to function. The footpad will have adapted to cold to some point, as being mountain living creatures, yet t they would prefer the warm sunbacked rocks above the snow covered and icesheeted ridges. one; because the cold will numb them down, two because their footpads will have no grip on these surfaces. I can imagine the Traldar or Hutaaka sometimes have reached the tops, yet their view was obscured by the other mountains and even if they would have seen something (like the Canolbarth Trees in the north) the area would be too cold for them to yourney further. Thet simply don't have the means to travel further and most of if not all these rare explorers would have perished in the process. Until the B!0 adventurers discovere the valley.
This will be a world change to then....and the Karameikans too...with great politcal implications...for the lost valley actually lies on the Darokin side of the border.
Image
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Zendrolion » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:47 pm

While I've not had much spare time in the last few years to contribute actively to this project (or anything else Mystaran, for the matter... :( ), I have to say: great work so far, Robin! :D

I admit I have not read meticolously everything about the choices you adopted for the 1-mph map of Karameikos (and I could have missed something), but I'd add a few sources to the ones I have seen listed in previous posts:

* Central Altan Tepes Mini-Gazetteer, which features the north-eastern tip of the Grand Duchy as well as the surrounding areas of Darokin (Altan Tepes Borderlands, with a few domains) and Ylaruam (south-western Makistan);

* Detail of Threshold region (2.7 mph), where I placed most canon locations (to my knowledge, at least) using the B1-9 placements of modules (Elwyn's sanctuary, Castle Caldwell, The Rock from B8, etc. - everything is referenced below the map); here I gave precedence to GAZ1 over B10 placement of Threshold (and Lost Valley). Some locations (Eltan's Springs, Zadreth, as well as Windrush Lake's size) are borrowed from KKoA adventure and Hail the Heroes. Note that in the map the "mountain outpost" of Highdell is wrongly placed, and (I shared some opinions about this with Thorf on fb the last year) should be found "at the beginnings" of Hillfollow River (see Expert Set, page 39). However, the presence of a Sir Reynald's domain is canon from Dungeon Magazine #42 ("Ransom" adventure: "The fief of Sir Reynald stands on the northern border near Threshold", hence "the small village of Utica, 10 miles north of the Duchy's border" is more or less properly located on the map).

Some comments about a number of locations whose placement isn't canonically of fanonically clear:

* Seragrad: This isn't fanon but canon (from adventure "The Voyage of the Crimpshrine" in Dungeon Magazine #59, a map is featured on page 60), and is described as "a small fortified frontier town situated where the Castellan River and the Highreach River branch off from each other. Seragrad is often used as a base of operations for those seeking adventure in the wild, unmapped foothills of the region." Descriptions found in the adventure add some sparse further details about the area along the course of the Highreach - but beware because the author has erroneously labeled Castellan River in the map (and in the text). Anyway, Seragrad location is clear on the map and is more or less where you placed it.

* Guido's Fort and Monastery on the Hill: The fort (from B5) should be found on River Shrill, along which - according to the plot of B1-9 - the PCs travel by boat from Haven (or its vicinities, as Thendara "transports" them on the banks of a river, upstream from civilization) to Specularum via Kelvin. On the way, they have to stop on the "east bank" of the river in the fort. On the other bank lies at some distance the Monstery on the Hill. Agathokles makes a different choice for the Fort's location instead (which is followed by Sturm, I think).

* Kota-Hutan and Hantu Valley (from B7): Still found in Karameikos due to B1-9 placement (the elven village lays "along the Duke's Road", page 6 of the module, but the PCs turn off the road to reach the village, so it's located at some distance from the road). You can read the history I pu together for this area from various fanon and canon sources in Threshold #1.

That's all for now; if something else pops out of my head, I'll post it.
Do what you prefer with those details and keep on the good work! ;)
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causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:47 pm
While I've not had much spare time in the last few years to contribute actively to this project (or anything else Mystaran, for the matter... :( ), I have to say: great work so far, Robin! :D
Thanx Simone. I do my utmost best :P
Zendrolion wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:47 pm
I admit I have not read meticolously everything about the choices you adopted for the 1-mph map of Karameikos (and I could have missed something), but I'd add a few sources to the ones I have seen listed in previous posts:

* Central Altan Tepes Mini-Gazetteer, which features the north-eastern tip of the Grand Duchy as well as the surrounding areas of Darokin (Altan Tepes Borderlands, with a few domains) and Ylaruam (south-western Makistan);
Thanx Very useful. See how much (hope all) I can enter in the map. The map seems very promising. Most seems to fit, although the southern edge has to conform more to X1. The northern gives an awesome amount of detail. as wel as the eastern Yari side. As said the Variant fanon maps seem a bit conflicting to eachother and especially to the X1 canon, yet I will find a way to enter it...one way or another. great work with the mini gaz btw ;) any questions on this I will PM you. thanx
Zendrolion wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:47 pm
* Detail of Threshold region (2.7 mph), where I placed most canon locations (to my knowledge, at least) using the B1-9 placements of modules (Elwyn's sanctuary, Castle Caldwell, The Rock from B8, etc. - everything is referenced below the map); here I gave precedence to GAZ1 over B10 placement of Threshold (and Lost Valley). Some locations (Eltan's Springs, Zadreth, as well as Windrush Lake's size) are borrowed from KKoA adventure and Hail the Heroes. Note that in the map the "mountain outpost" of Highdell is wrongly placed, and (I shared some opinions about this with Thorf on fb the last year) should be found "at the beginnings" of Hillfollow River (see Expert Set, page 39). However, the presence of a Sir Reynald's domain is canon from Dungeon Magazine #42 ("Ransom" adventure: "The fief of Sir Reynald stands on the northern border near Threshold", hence "the small village of Utica, 10 miles north of the Duchy's border" is more or less properly located on the map).
This map is one of the fanon sources I already use, However, as the location shift cause by the Hex 8 miles of Threshold and thus most other locations hence on, I have to make a large section of this map in two forms one as canon as possible , another with the fanon add-ons and location shift by the 8 mile hex location shift.
X1 page39 wrote:The trade route between Specularum and Selenica passes through Kelven; the well-worn riverside trail leads south (through Krakatos) and north (to the small mountain outpost of Highdell, at the river’s beginnings)
As following this text it seems to be placed at the rivers beginning. Which river is not mentioned yet as it is located north of Threshold.
Adding this to the trails and roads of B10, The trail to Kelvin goes south and is in fact a minor road, the trail north leading to Highdell seems indeed badly noted as following X1/B10...there is only mountains...the best indeed seems the first valley east, where Highdell is placed and using the trail of Elthan's Spring to reach Highdell. It might still be added to the many streams making up the Windrush River.
--As to the Estate of Sir Reynard..in Dungeon #42...thanx...i will check that too.
As to the size/shape of Lake windrush.; there is simply no map equal to the other in this aspect. even in a single source (B10) the shape or size of the lake varies. And fans work on the variant sources, made some adjustments themselves, making it even more confusing. I will create a compilation on scale with all the lake windrush sizes and shapes. I think I will follow the B10 2 mile map over all others, and use the KKoA map for the fanon version.

--I just worked on the research of B8 The rock.. , and the two locations suggested are not as what the fans had done.
B8 wrote:The area is in the Cruth Mountains, on the river northwest of Wereskalot,
or in the Cruth Mountains on the river northwest of Threshold. The Barkel and Krayzen Mountains are extensions of the Cruth Mountains.
The first places it alnost in the Five Shires, the second is different from what the Fans did who placed it Northeast of Threshold, and with Threshold pushed east due the 8 mile hex location shift, made even that appear much further east.
I think I will place it as the canon text suggested. Where exactly is still something to made clear, though.
A question remains. The canon text of B8 seems to describe/suggest elven settlements in the forested region yet none are given. The same is applied to the Dwarves. The Gnomes proximity to the Gnomish Kingdom of Highforge seems reasonable, yet why the Gnomes push a vessel along the land really makes these creatures stupid. The Shuttergal/Hillfollow is closeby. If following the canon locations, this might seem more reasonable, as they might try to reach th e Windrush River or Rivers in the West, making them originate from the hills there. So even if the elves are gone (and none are actually mentioned so I presume they have supported the forest till what it is today, and left...probably if following the canon suggested locations these could still be part of the Calarrii elves or some elves living west . Eitherway some ruins or active settlements should exist, yet I have no idea where, and how much. All in all the fan suggestion of east of Threshold seems off, and enforces me to make two maps if the region...sigh

--As to Elthan's Spring, I noticed the fan map did not really use the same scale and distance measurements, and made it much larger than actually created in the adventure of KKoA. As I try to make all scales equal, this results in a somewhat different map though. Especially the B8 region seems to be following the same fan treatment; making it larger, and not to scale. Not that these maps are bad, yet not as canon as possible.
--As to Zadreth, and the Temple of the Shield...these are placed easily.
--As to Highdell, I also agree, theree is something wrong here. The best location of Highdell, still following Canon seems to be the first valley of X1/B10 to the east of Threshold, where the ridgelines of B10 reveal a slim canyonlike pass through the mountains to Darokin. Or as you suggested indeed at the beginning of the Hillfollow/Shuttergal river...ie south of the Duke's Road Keep, and dominated by the Duke's Road. I feel it seems better in the first option. yet not fully decided yet. I have to explore the canon deeper.

Zendrolion wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:47 pm
Some comments about a number of locations whose placement isn't canonically of fanonically clear:

* Seragrad: This isn't fanon but canon (from adventure "The Voyage of the Crimpshrine" in Dungeon Magazine #59, a map is featured on page 60), and is described as "a small fortified frontier town situated where the Castellan River and the Highreach River branch off from each other. Seragrad is often used as a base of operations for those seeking adventure in the wild, unmapped foothills of the region." Descriptions found in the adventure add some sparse further details about the area along the course of the Highreach - but beware because the author has erroneously labeled Castellan River in the map (and in the text). Anyway, Seragrad location is clear on the map and is more or less where you placed it.
I will check the adventure deeply. Thanx for the reference. The labelling of the rivers might be too confusing for the various authors, as there aretwo with two names to each river. Volaga/ Highreach, Shuttergal/Hillfollow. The DMR1 author even echanged the Castelland and Volaga and reversed its flow direction, just to mention how far off one can be.
Zendrolion wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:47 pm
* Guido's Fort and Monastery on the Hill: The fort (from B5) should be found on River Shrill, along which - according to the plot of B1-9 - the PCs travel by boat from Haven (or its vicinities, as Thendara "transports" them on the banks of a river, upstream from civilization) to Specularum via Kelvin. On the way, they have to stop on the "east bank" of the river in the fort. On the other bank lies at some distance the Monstery on the Hill. Agathokles makes a different choice for the Fort's location instead (which is followed by Sturm, I think).
The River Shrill is the oldest official name of Hillfollow/Shuttergal River, and the adventure clearly states several miles north of Kelvin. The TSR crew did not like the name, and renamed it as Shuttergal in B10 and later added the Thyatian name Hillfollow to it in Gaz1. So this location is easily placed. the corresponding hill& Monestary superfluously fits into the hills on the otherside of the river as the adventure discribes.
Zendrolion wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:47 pm
* Kota-Hutan and Hantu Valley (from B7): Still found in Karameikos due to B1-9 placement (the elven village lays "along the Duke's Road", page 6 of the module, but the PCs turn off the road to reach the village, so it's located at some distance from the road). You can read the history I pu together for this area from various fanon and canon sources in Threshold #1.
Already went deep into this. Several fans placed it in the Radllebb Woods (amongst myself), which is wrong. Most used not the correct scale or compass orientation(which is different) and made the location too large, all not cooperating to place it correctly. I worked on this already and the sketches thus far following the canon description as far as possible seem to place it on the Shuttergal/Hillfollow. the Road mentioned in the adventure with its peculiar zigzag pattern is actually the Duke's Road. The only thing that seems a bit bothersome why there are elves on this 'non-typical'elven location.
Zendrolion wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:47 pm
That's all for now; if something else pops out of my head, I'll post it.
Do what you prefer with those details and keep on the good work! ;)
You are more than welcome. This is again a giganornous task, and I have just reached the surface. I will absolutely work with this materual
Thanx ♥
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:07 pm

Karameikos
Crappy day. :evil: Still not ok. :( So mapping again :?
Just to ease down...not even went out for groceries...so my food is almost done...tomorrow I have to, yet no luster to do so.

Anyway

Today I made fan map (Selenica 2.66 mile per hex of the Darokin series by Mike Philips into a whiteout version, copied /pasted it into the right scale, and super imposed it on the map. using the location of the Darokin Trail & Selenica to focus on.
This enables me to view the differences of canon per X1 and Mike's map.

Image
Where the Duke's Road Keep seems to pop up now. is not where it will be placed.
This as the location popping up is based on 8 mile hexes and does not give the real location of the keep as per B10/X1
Sililar to the Castellan keep, which is somewhat more north
This has to be restored later.
Clearly now is how short I skimmed along the edges while making the Canolbarth map...not more than a few pixels. :o :P

Image
The Canolbarth Forest in the distance as seen from the beginning of the Ylary Pass near Selenica
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Zendrolion » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:40 am

Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
Expert Set page39 wrote:The trade route between Specularum and Selenica passes through Kelven; the well-worn riverside trail leads south (through Krakatos) and north (to the small mountain outpost of Highdell, at the river’s beginnings)
As following this text it seems to be placed at the rivers beginning. Which river is not mentioned yet as it is located north of Threshold.
Adding this to the trails and roads of B10, The trail to Kelvin goes south and is in fact a minor road, the trail north leading to Highdell seems indeed badly noted as following X1/B10...there is only mountains...the best indeed seems the first valley east, where Highdell is placed and using the trail of Elthan's Spring to reach Highdell. It might still be added to the many streams making up the Windrush River.
Actually, after discussing this issue with Thorf one year ago, we came to the conclusion that the subject of the sentence is the trade route Specularum-Selenica passing through Kelvin, which is the same "well-worn riverside trail" of the following sentence. The semicolon (as opposed to the previous full stop) seems to indicate the link between the two sentences; it would be odd indeed if the "well-worn trail" referred to the trail of the previous passage, which is closed by a full stop. According to this interpretation, Highdell should be placed somewhere around the source of the Hillfollow River (possibly even into Darokin, if you look at Expert Set Karameikos map at 6mph).

--As to the Estate of Sir Reynard..in Dungeon #42...thanx...i will check that too.
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
As to the size/shape of Lake windrush.; there is simply no map equal to the other in this aspect. even in a single source (B10) the shape or size of the lake varies. And fans work on the variant sources, made some adjustments themselves, making it even more confusing. I will create a compilation on scale with all the lake windrush sizes and shapes. I think I will follow the B10 2 mile map over all others, and use the KKoA map for the fanon version.
In my map I gave precedence to the most recent sources, so I adopted the size of Lake Windrush found in KKoA (adventure booklet, page 21), even if I seem to recall I had to shrink the lake a bit because the size came out way too large on the hexed map.
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
--I just worked on the research of B8 The rock.. , and the two locations suggested are not as what the fans had done.
B8 wrote:The area is in the Cruth Mountains, on the river northwest of Wereskalot,
or in the Cruth Mountains on the river northwest of Threshold. The Barkel and Krayzen Mountains are extensions of the Cruth Mountains.
The first places it alnost in the Five Shires, the second is different from what the Fans did who placed it Northeast of Threshold, and with Threshold pushed east due the 8 mile hex location shift, made even that appear much further east.
I think I will place it as the canon text suggested. Where exactly is still something to made clear, though. [...] All in all the fan suggestion of east of Threshold seems off, and enforces me to make two maps if the region...sigh
As above, I decided to follow the most recent reference to B8 location, so it was again B1-9, which has Threshold "several hours travel south of the Forest of Carm" (page 14). So, north of Threshold; in my 2.7mph map I put it in the most reasonable place north of Threshold, considering the area featured in B8 is quite large and it can't be placed over mountainous hexes, hence the area came out a little northeast of the town (GAZ1 site). I tried to stay as true to the original map's size in my placement - see Threshold Magazine #1, page 46 to see how I worked. [Obviously, using Threshold's Expert-B10 location could make this location of B8 impossible to use.]
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
The canon text of B8 seems to describe/suggest elven settlements in the forested region yet none are given. The same is applied to the Dwarves. The Gnomes proximity to the Gnomish Kingdom of Highforge seems reasonable, yet why the Gnomes push a vessel along the land really makes these creatures stupid. The Shuttergal/Hillfollow is closeby. If following the canon locations, this might seem more reasonable, as they might try to reach th e Windrush River or Rivers in the West, making them originate from the hills there. So even if the elves are gone (and none are actually mentioned so I presume they have supported the forest till what it is today, and left...probably if following the canon suggested locations these could still be part of the Calarrii elves or some elves living west . Eitherway some ruins or active settlements should exist, yet I have no idea where, and how much.
I wouldn't worry about lack of settlement symbols on the map, since the demihumans there are present in small number. Besides, no elven (besides Rifflian) or dwarven settlements are featured in GAZ1 map or Expert Set Karameikos map, but from the text we still know elves and dwarves are there. Simply, their settlements were likely not relevant for the adventure, since B8 had not enough space to detail the dwarven village, for instance, should the PCs decide to explore it.

Regarding B8, elves are mentioned among the wandering monsters of the Western Trail; they have patrols watching for goblins and monsters, so it's reasonable that the whole eastern (Sylvanhome, maybe also the Greenweald and part of the Forest of Carm), forested area of B8 map is inhabited by elves (a small, northern clan of Callarii, I suppose). The introductory text describing the PCs' arrive to the Manor also implies that the trails leading there from the south are safe, and this is consistent with vicinity to Threshold and maybe to an albeit small elven presence.

Dwarves are said to belong to a small clan in the Krayzen Mounains, while gnomes searching for the ocean... well, their leader is called "Stubborn Rob" and has decided he has to sail the ocean - crazy gnomish weirdness (stupidly funny, but not totally unfitting if you consider PC2).
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
--As to Elthan's Spring, I noticed the fan map did not really use the same scale and distance measurements, and made it much larger than actually created in the adventure of KKoA. As I try to make all scales equal, this results in a somewhat different map though. Especially the B8 region seems to be following the same fan treatment; making it larger, and not to scale. Not that these maps are bad, yet not as canon as possible.
I might have made some mistakes, or small adjustments, but I think the scale of these areas in my 2.7mph map should not be that off... maybe Eltan's Spring is moved a little east due to the need to fit the village symbol in a hex, but I don't remember making substantial changes. Anyway, I might be wrong (it's several years ago... :? ).
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
--As to Highdell, I also agree, theree is something wrong here. The best location of Highdell, still following Canon seems to be the first valley of X1/B10 to the east of Threshold, where the ridgelines of B10 reveal a slim canyonlike pass through the mountains to Darokin. Or as you suggested indeed at the beginning of the Hillfollow/Shuttergal river...ie south of the Duke's Road Keep, and dominated by the Duke's Road. I feel it seems better in the first option. yet not fully decided yet. I have to explore the canon deeper.
Ok, but consider that Expert Set says "at the beginnings of the river", and the river there most likely refers to the (still unnamed) Hillfollow River, alongside which the abovementioned "well-worn trail" runs.
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
The River Shrill is the oldest official name of Hillfollow/Shuttergal River, and the adventure clearly states several miles north of Kelvin.
Well, to my knowledge there are not canon sources supporting this, so I suppose matching River Shrill with Shuttarga is only the simplest solution, but is not all that consistent with the follow-up of "Palace of the Silver Princess" from B1-9, leading to "The Hobgoblin King" (aka B5) in the same module. The Immortal Thendara transports the PCs to the bank of a river, and there she creates a boat for them to travel to Kelvin. Since the "Silver Princess" is set in Haven, it would have sense if Thendara sent the PCs to the nearest river, not one dozens of miles away... she wants to reward and help them, after all - why doesn't she transports the PCs directly to the vicinities of Kelvin, then? So, I think it would make more sense if the Shrill is kept a separate lesser river descending from Haven and joining the Volaga (before the latter receives the Castellan in its flow).

BTW, I think the correct Traladaran name for Hillfollow River is Shuttarga (without the final "L"), since the latter spelling is found in B10 and GAZ1 text, while the spelling "Shuttargal" seems to come from a typo in GAZ1 map label (repeated in the RC and TM maps).
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:12 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:40 am
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
Expert Set page39 wrote:The trade route between Specularum and Selenica passes through Kelven; the well-worn riverside trail leads south (through Krakatos) and north (to the small mountain outpost of Highdell, at the river’s beginnings)
As following this text it seems to be placed at the rivers beginning. Which river is not mentioned yet as it is located north of Threshold.
Adding this to the trails and roads of B10, The trail to Kelvin goes south and is in fact a minor road, the trail north leading to Highdell seems indeed badly noted as following X1/B10...there is only mountains...the best indeed seems the first valley east, where Highdell is placed and using the trail of Elthan's Spring to reach Highdell. It might still be added to the many streams making up the Windrush River.
Actually, after discussing this issue with Thorf one year ago, we came to the conclusion that the subject of the sentence is the trade route Specularum-Selenica passing through Kelvin, which is the same "well-worn riverside trail" of the following sentence. The semicolon (as opposed to the previous full stop) seems to indicate the link between the two sentences; it would be odd indeed if the "well-worn trail" referred to the trail of the previous passage, which is closed by a full stop. According to this interpretation, Highdell should be placed somewhere around the source of the Hillfollow River (possibly even into Darokin, if you look at Expert Set Karameikos map at 6mph).
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:40 am
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
--As to Highdell, I also agree, theree is something wrong here. The best location of Highdell, still following Canon seems to be the first valley of X1/B10 to the east of Threshold, where the ridgelines of B10 reveal a slim canyonlike pass through the mountains to Darokin. Or as you suggested indeed at the beginning of the Hillfollow/Shuttergal river...ie south of the Duke's Road Keep, and dominated by the Duke's Road. I feel it seems better in the first option. yet not fully decided yet. I have to explore the canon deeper.
Ok, but consider that Expert Set says "at the beginnings of the river", and the river there most likely refers to the (still unnamed) Hillfollow River, alongside which the abovementioned "well-worn trail" runs.
As you tell me this I can only agree. Ok. that means then that the Duke's Road Keep is part of the Highdell area and is probably the most northern settlement (and the highest--hence its befitting name) of Karameikos. I go with this :P
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:40 am
--As to the Estate of Sir Reynard..in Dungeon #42...thanx...i will check that too.

Ok . That Dungeon issue I can't seem to relocate(yet-I keep searching). so any input is welcome. especially on locations, area descripitions, etc
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:40 am
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
As to the size/shape of Lake windrush.; there is simply no map equal to the other in this aspect. even in a single source (B10) the shape or size of the lake varies. And fans work on the variant sources, made some adjustments themselves, making it even more confusing. I will create a compilation on scale with all the lake windrush sizes and shapes. I think I will follow the B10 2 mile map over all others, and use the KKoA map for the fanon version.
In my map I gave precedence to the most recent sources, so I adopted the size of Lake Windrush found in KKoA (adventure booklet, page 21), even if I seem to recall I had to shrink the lake a bit because the size came out way too large on the hexed map.
Ah that explains all. Thorf said it is best to use the oldest and most detailed source. And I understand why; then any flaw in any earler map how minute or large it might be is not blown up or added upon with any follow up map.
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:40 am
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
--I just worked on the research of B8 The rock.. , and the two locations suggested are not as what the fans had done.
B8 wrote:The area is in the Cruth Mountains, on the river northwest of Wereskalot,
or in the Cruth Mountains on the river northwest of Threshold. The Barkel and Krayzen Mountains are extensions of the Cruth Mountains.
The first places it alnost in the Five Shires, the second is different from what the Fans did who placed it Northeast of Threshold, and with Threshold pushed east due the 8 mile hex location shift, made even that appear much further east.
I think I will place it as the canon text suggested. Where exactly is still something to made clear, though. [...] All in all the fan suggestion of east of Threshold seems off, and enforces me to make two maps if the region...sigh
As above, I decided to follow the most recent reference to B8 location, so it was again B1-9, which has Threshold "several hours travel south of the Forest of Carm" (page 14). So, north of Threshold; in my 2.7mph map I put it in the most reasonable place north of Threshold, considering the area featured in B8 is quite large and it can't be placed over mountainous hexes, hence the area came out a little northeast of the town (GAZ1 site). I tried to stay as true to the original map's size in my placement - see Threshold Magazine #1, page 46 to see how I worked. [Obviously, using Threshold's Expert-B10 location could make this location of B8 impossible to use.]
The problem with B1-9 is that it ignored the original suggested locations. Again I try to follow the oldest most precise information. My misunderstanding lies however in the fact, why/how place B8 on the east of Threshold, instead what canon describes as NW of Threshold or NW of Wereskalot(which in my vision describes the Five Shires)
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:40 am
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
The canon text of B8 seems to describe/suggest elven settlements in the forested region yet none are given. The same is applied to the Dwarves. The Gnomes proximity to the Gnomish Kingdom of Highforge seems reasonable, yet why the Gnomes push a vessel along the land really makes these creatures stupid. The Shuttergal/Hillfollow is closeby. If following the canon locations, this might seem more reasonable, as they might try to reach th e Windrush River or Rivers in the West, making them originate from the hills there. So even if the elves are gone (and none are actually mentioned so I presume they have supported the forest till what it is today, and left...probably if following the canon suggested locations these could still be part of the Calarrii elves or some elves living west . Eitherway some ruins or active settlements should exist, yet I have no idea where, and how much.
I wouldn't worry about lack of settlement symbols on the map, since the demihumans there are present in small number. Besides, no elven (besides Rifflian) or dwarven settlements are featured in GAZ1 map or Expert Set Karameikos map, but from the text we still know elves and dwarves are there. Simply, their settlements were likely not relevant for the adventure, since B8 had not enough space to detail the dwarven village, for instance, should the PCs decide to explore it.

Regarding B8, elves are mentioned among the wandering monsters of the Western Trail; they have patrols watching for goblins and monsters, so it's reasonable that the whole eastern (Sylvanhome, maybe also the Greenweald and part of the Forest of Carm), forested area of B8 map is inhabited by elves (a small, northern clan of Callarii, I suppose). The introductory text describing the PCs' arrive to the Manor also implies that the trails leading there from the south are safe, and this is consistent with vicinity to Threshold and maybe to an albeit small elven presence.
I then feel the best is to use my Hamlets symbol to locate Elven settlements. I also think the number of elves here is low, due the vague descriptions. I feel the best they are located close to the manor and the western trail[/quote]
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:40 am
Dwarves are said to belong to a small clan in the Krayzen Mounains, while gnomes searching for the ocean... well, their leader is called "Stubborn Rob" and has decided he has to sail the ocean - crazy gnomish weirdness (stupidly funny, but not totally unfitting if you consider PC2).
Ya Gnomes are a bit off, and especially these story-flavour gnomes. Ok a single Dwarven Stellement thus, with some mining closeby. And humanoid caves or camps as the general description explains.thanx
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:40 am
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
--As to Elthan's Spring, I noticed the fan map did not really use the same scale and distance measurements, and made it much larger than actually created in the adventure of KKoA. As I try to make all scales equal, this results in a somewhat different map though. Especially the B8 region seems to be following the same fan treatment; making it larger, and not to scale. Not that these maps are bad, yet not as canon as possible.
I might have made some mistakes, or small adjustments, but I think the scale of these areas in my 2.7mph map should not be that off... maybe Eltan's Spring is moved a little east due to the need to fit the village symbol in a hex, but I don't remember making substantial changes. Anyway, I might be wrong (it's several years ago... :? ).
When I make a scaled input in a map I whiteout all major information on that map, leaving behind the terrain edges(mountain, forest, hill, water, desert, grass) and locations . then copy/paste and size adjust until I get the right scale. This way the details and roads/settlements always fall on the right location.
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:40 am
Robin wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:23 pm
The River Shrill is the oldest official name of Hillfollow/Shuttergal River, and the adventure clearly states several miles north of Kelvin.
Well, to my knowledge there are not canon sources supporting this, so I suppose matching River Shrill with Shuttarga is only the simplest solution, but is not all that consistent with the follow-up of "Palace of the Silver Princess" from B1-9, leading to "The Hobgoblin King" (aka B5) in the same module. The Immortal Thendara transports the PCs to the bank of a river, and there she creates a boat for them to travel to Kelvin. Since the "Silver Princess" is set in Haven, it would have sense if Thendara sent the PCs to the nearest river, not one dozens of miles away... she wants to reward and help them, after all - why doesn't she transports the PCs directly to the vicinities of Kelvin, then? So, I think it would make more sense if the Shrill is kept a separate lesser river descending from Haven and joining the Volaga (before the latter receives the Castellan in its flow).
I know this story of the river Shrill/Shutterga/Hillfollow River from a debate at the Euro Gencon in 1985. There were more changes implemented different from the author's designs on many incidents. and this "Shrill River" mentioning still in the module is something forgotten to adjust.
That immortal action is indeed something I would not understood (except if the Immortal had some intent and importance on the location...maybe the Monestary was dedicated to her or a befriended immortal...or she desires to increase her influence in that region). Following this information the river Shrill should best be the western stream into Lake of Lost Dreams. and the boat should be a large canou, as the Rugalov is a wild river between the lake and midway as according the terrain (Hills, cliffs) following B10. A benefit is we still can keep the River Shrill as an existing name, just it does not lead to Kelvin, bit into the lake of lost dreams.
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:40 am
BTW, I think the correct Traladaran name for Hillfollow River is Shuttarga (without the final "L"), since the latter spelling is found in B10 and GAZ1 text, while the spelling "Shuttargal" seems to come from a typo in GAZ1 map label (repeated in the RC and TM maps).
Agreed. I actually knew that. The B10 clearly states it as thus. luckily I am far from labelling as of yet :P keep an eye on it.

Thanx for all this information and the discussion about it. :mrgreen: :lol: it greatly helps, and brings me more the feeling I create for all of you instead me myself and I ;) .
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Zendrolion » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:37 pm

Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:12 pm
Ah that explains all. Thorf said it is best to use the oldest and most detailed source. And I understand why; then any flaw in any earler map how minute or large it might be is not blown up or added upon with any follow up map.
I also think your (and Thorf's) method is better; I only wanted to explain that those choices in my 2.7mph map were not arbitrary, but based on a rationale. ;)
Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:12 pm
The problem with B1-9 is that it ignored the original suggested locations. Again I try to follow the oldest most precise information. My misunderstanding lies however in the fact, why/how place B8 on the east of Threshold, instead what canon describes as NW of Threshold or NW of Wereskalot(which in my vision describes the Five Shires)
Yes, of course B1-9's problem is that it retro-fitted the locations of all B adventures in Karameikos (Threshold area, mostly), ignoring suggestions found in the modules. I'm not fanatic about location the B8 area north-east of Threshold, I only chose that place because I thought it was cool to have that adventure area tied to other areas around Threshold (and also because going with the B8's second Karameikos placement conflicted with the location of the Lost Valley in GAZ1, to which I gave precedence).

Going with locations suggested in B8, instead, I'd chose the following:
B8 Journey to the Rock, page 30 wrote:... in the Cruth Mountains on the river northwest of Threshold.
This way the B8 area is still quite close to Threshold to be included in a B1-9-like adventure arch having the town as a starting point. I suppose it's the Rock to be "on the river", which using GAZ1's labels should be Achelos River. The place comes quite close to B1's location, but after all B1 is only a dungeon so I suppose we may be ok with this.
Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:12 pm
When I make a scaled input in a map I whiteout all major information on that map, leaving behind the terrain edges(mountain, forest, hill, water, desert, grass) and locations . then copy/paste and size adjust until I get the right scale. This way the details and roads/settlements always fall on the right location.
I blindly trust yours and Thorf's mapping skills - I simply don't have the right softwares or precision. ;)
Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:12 pm
I know this story of the river Shrill/Shutterga/Hillfollow River from a debate at the Euro Gencon in 1985. There were more changes implemented different from the author's designs on many incidents. and this "Shrill River" mentioning still in the module is something forgotten to adjust.
That immortal action is indeed something I would not understood (except if the Immortal had some intent and importance on the location...maybe the Monestary was dedicated to her or a befriended immortal...or she desires to increase her influence in that region). Following this information the river Shrill should best be the western stream into Lake of Lost Dreams. and the boat should be a large canou, as the Rugalov is a wild river between the lake and midway as according the terrain (Hills, cliffs) following B10. A benefit is we still can keep the River Shrill as an existing name, just it does not lead to Kelvin, bit into the lake of lost dreams.
Thanks for the imput on the Shrill-Shuttarga issue, I didn't know that. Again, I've nothing against using the Shuttargal as the Shrill, but since it has by then a different name, I don't see problems in having it as a different river altogether, especially since this would make easier to explain Thendara's action in B1-9. As you said, however, the Shrill can't be one of the rivers flowing into the Lake of Lost Dreams, because the B1-9 adventure arch implies that the PCs sail through Kelvin on the route to Specularum. As I said, my best choice is an additional river flowing from the vicinities of Haven area into the Volaga - but I'm ready to welcome any other choice. :)
Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:12 pm
Thanx for all this information and the discussion about it. :mrgreen: :lol: it greatly helps, and brings me more the feeling I create for all of you instead me myself and I ;) .
You are welcome! Even if I don't post something, I always lurk around (as I suppose many of us do), so never have the idea your work isn't appreciated, borrowed, and investigated deeply! :cool:
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causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:47 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:37 pm
Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:12 pm
Ah that explains all. Thorf said it is best to use the oldest and most detailed source. And I understand why; then any flaw in any earler map how minute or large it might be is not blown up or added upon with any follow up map.
I also think your (and Thorf's) method is better; I only wanted to explain that those choices in my 2.7mph map were not arbitrary, but based on a rationale. ;)

Ah. I understand the idea.
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:37 pm
Going with locations suggested in B8, instead, I'd chose the following:
B8 Journey to the Rock, page 30 wrote:... in the Cruth Mountains on the river northwest of Threshold.
This way the B8 area is still quite close to Threshold to be included in a B1-9-like adventure arch having the town as a starting point. I suppose it's the Rock to be "on the river", which using GAZ1's labels should be Achelos River. The place comes quite close to B1's location, but after all B1 is only a dungeon so I suppose we may be ok with this.
That seems indeed the best location..and it follows canon suggestions and enables the B8 river to be ending in the Achelos River. Thanx This helps.
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:37 pm
Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:12 pm
When I make a scaled input in a map I whiteout all major information on that map, leaving behind the terrain edges(mountain, forest, hill, water, desert, grass) and locations . then copy/paste and size adjust until I get the right scale. This way the details and roads/settlements always fall on the right location.
I blindly trust yours and Thorf's mapping skills - I simply don't have the right softwares or precision. ;)
Me neither. :o :P ..I do it all in Paint...by gazillion of cutting /paste routines, and some manual drawing :shock: ;) I do have the background of geological, geomorphological and ecological understanding due my schooling as Bio/Physics/Chem/Geo/Eco teacher. and that helps a lot :P
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:37 pm
[
Thanks for the imput on the Shrill-Shuttarga issue, I didn't know that. Again, I've nothing against using the Shuttargal as the Shrill, but since it has by then a different name, I don't see problems in having it as a different river altogether, especially since this would make easier to explain Thendara's action in B1-9. As you said, however, the Shrill can't be one of the rivers flowing into the Lake of Lost Dreams, because the B1-9 adventure arch implies that the PCs sail through Kelvin on the route to Specularum. As I said, my best choice is an additional river flowing from the vicinities of Haven area into the Volaga - but I'm ready to welcome any other choice. :)
I agree. The difficulty is that the Volaga is detailed from beginning to end, and adding another River (not stream) would be canon conflicting. And it conflicts with the description of the hill lying several miles north of Kelvin
The only solution I still see is that the Shutterga and Shrill are the same, and thendara had some personal reason to send the PC's in the path of the Hill/Monestary adventure....whatever that might be...otherwise there is simply no logic in it....not that I say all immortals have logic, ;)
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:37 pm
Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:12 pm
Thanx for all this information and the discussion about it. :mrgreen: :lol: it greatly helps, and brings me more the feeling I create for all of you instead me myself and I ;) .
You are welcome! Even if I don't post something, I always lurk around (as I suppose many of us do), so never have the idea your work isn't appreciated, borrowed, and investigated deeply! :cool:
Great Thanx
Sometimes I feel bad. As with all the work responses are very low at best.
Yet that might be a symptom of this era. With all the smartphones...we are deafening ourselves socially.
I have to accept that, and continue. Still embracing the few responses fully.
Thanx to all.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Zendrolion » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:04 pm

Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:47 pm
I agree. The difficulty is that the Volaga is detailed from beginning to end, and adding another River (not stream) would be canon conflicting. And it conflicts with the description of the hill lying several miles north of Kelvin
Well, sometimes we're adding villages and towns, I don't think adding a river could be that bad! :D But as I said I'm positive to any solution.

Anyway, just out of curiosity, where did you find the reference to the Hill being found several miles north of Kelvin? I still can't find it... :facepalm: :?


The only solution I still see is that the Shutterga and Shrill are the same, and thendara had some personal reason to send the PC's in the path of the Hill/Monestary adventure....whatever that might be...otherwise there is simply no logic in it....not that I say all immortals have logic, ;)
Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:47 pm
Sometimes I feel bad. As with all the work responses are very low at best.
Yet that might be a symptom of this era. With all the smartphones...we are deafening ourselves socially.
It could be true... In my case, however, it's just lack of time, due to personal life meddling with my favourite hobby. ^_^
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causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:59 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:04 pm
Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:47 pm
I agree. The difficulty is that the Volaga is detailed from beginning to end, and adding another River (not stream) would be canon conflicting. And it conflicts with the description of the hill lying several miles north of Kelvin
Well, sometimes we're adding villages and towns, I don't think adding a river could be that bad! :D But as I said I'm positive to any solution.
Ok, that could be possible, yet a river is much more than a line on a chart, it affects a whole region. I have pondered on this. and my solution is as below in blue.
Zendrolion wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:04 pm
Anyway, just out of curiosity, where did you find the reference to the Hill being found several miles north of Kelvin? I still can't find it... :facepalm: :?
B1-9 page 61 wrote:When the characters are ready. Thendara will transport them to the bank of a Rive. With the Wave of her hand she creates a boat large enough to hold all of them, and fully provisioned for a journey of some days. Thendara tells them that the way hack to civilization lies downstream. Since the characters don't know where they are, sailing downstream is their only option.
Shortly after they set out, it begins to rain. The rain continues for several days, and the nights are cold and wild. Worse, the food starts to spoil. Just as everyone is starting to feel pretty miserable, a small settlement and fort comes into view on the east side of the river. (this is Guido's Fort)
On the west bank is a towering, fogshrouded hill of rock that rises over 400 feet into the air. (This is the Hill of the Adventure)
If the party tries to land at the settlement, they will run a ground and damage their boat. It will require at least a week to repair. In the meantime, they can go to the Lon's Den Inn, the only inn in town. There. they will begin the adventure of the Hobgoblin King.
If the party decides to continue on their way to Specularum. the food will go bad (and must he purified daily), the weather will stay bad, and all must make a successful Constitution check or become ill (lose half of total hit points, - 1 on all rolls for a week). The hit points must he recovered by bed rest, which will be possible once the characters reach the Barony of Kelvin. While they are recuperating, word comes that a small settlement some distance upriver named Guido's Fort has been OVerun by hobgoblins and destroyed
As seen from Kelvin there are Three rivers going upstream; The Widrush to Threshold, the Shutterga to Penhaligon and Stalonford, and the Volaga which goes to Sielo's fort. There is clearly spoken of a western bank with the monestary on the hill (of 400feet) and eastern bank upon Which Guido's Fort exists. Guido's fort is mentioned as some distance upstream from Kelvin. The Windrush does not have such a west-hill , east-settlement bank so it can't be this river.
The Shutterga is usable by boat to about Penhaligon or maybe Stallonford (which clearly designates a ford. The Location of Guido's fort fits perfectly along the biginning of the hill ridges as per B10.
The Volaga River is only fordable from Sielo's fort down, due the many fords canon (DMR1) upstream. The only hill is the southern point of the rugged plateaux of B10, yet there is no Guido's fort. The rest of the tract is woodlands on the southern side and moor on the northern side . ...or you should name Sielo's fort into Guido's fort and use the Volaga (even if that is not possible due the fords)

All in all this seems more obscure he more you dive into it.
It is also weird the PC's do not notice said settlements, fords or such during their travel of several days downstream, coming from upstream.
In my opinion the mentioning of several days travelling in the rain seems ridiculous. With the speed of an average boat is 36(upstream)to 72(downstream) miles a day(RC pag 71), which by using the Volaga is from the source of the river 72 miles (if it were possible, doing so in only slightly more than a day, while several days are mentioned before they reach the Hill. Downstream from stallonfort to kelvin is also not much more than a day, and ulike the Volaga is usable from Stallonford to Kelvin.

My most logical combined option is that The River Thendara placed them on is actually placed in the Dreamland Realm where Haven transports itself in between its locations (one of which could be Dreamlands of the Fairy Sidhe --see discussion here; viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21456). Unknown to the adventurers they were transported from the Haven location in Karameikos to that of the Dreamlands during their adventure. This could mean the river travels through the Dreamlands (where no settlements are along the way), and opens up camouflaged during(or by) the rain somewhere along the Shutterga between Guido's Fort and Penhaligon without the Character's awareness.
Image
This would explain the duration of travel, and the bad weather (which is the actual 'gate' and vortex tunnel river to the Prime Plane). To them the river is named Shrill (as it was named there in Dreamlands) and they have no reason to believe it is named otherwise when they disembark either in Kelvin or Guido's Fort. It might even be as this exiting vortex from the Dreamlands is a solid fixed location, settlers of Guido's fort name the river as it was named by the travellers floating on the river they met; namely Shrill. First later the Traladaran named the river Shutterga. This would make Guido's fort very old(and explain the ancient Monestary of the Dark Triad on the hill). First the PC's might become aware the river is named Shutterga, when they meet others beyond the Guido's fort region, and something isn't right to their journey.

This could mean that everytime is rains on the Shutterga, the portal might be opened and the Shrill enters the Volaga. And creatures from the Dreamlands come visiting the Prime Plane. Most neutral and curious(good Fairies, Pooka,etc), some benovolent and interesting(Sidhe, Hasiaou), some dangerous (Gakarak/Treant) or even evil(bad Fairies)
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:39 am

Karameikos

Feeling old, useless and ugly.
Making the map UUUgly...
Placing two other whiteout fanon maps (shawn Stanley and Sturm) tramslucent over the current X1 and Mike Philips map. Now all in the same scale.
This awkward mess enables me to shift out the differences and equalities between the variant sources, keeping canon as the most important.
Based on this I can start on filling up the hexes, readjusting the fanon to the canon as I go. and adding the fanon to the canon where it does not conflict.
This is hard work .
Spent a total of 16 hours today on this map, and its preparations (whiting out the fanon maps manually for example)

the overall shape of the mountain become is just visible. It contradicts on several places with the fanon maps by Mike Philips, Sturm, and Shawn Stanley, yet these were based clearly on the 8 mile hex maps and NOT the X1 map.
Tomorrow (and the days thereafter these contradictions will be resolved and the equalities made visible.
Detaling will be done later
Eventually it will become beautiful...I hope

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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Zendrolion » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:36 am

Robin wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:09 pm
In my canon research for Karameikos stuff I discovered there were no canon maps of Kelvin to be found
On the internet I could find the following fanon map (author unknown to me)
It is drawn in a style similar to the original Specularum map from the Gazetteer 1 Grand Duchy of Karameikos. So maybe it is the original author of that map.
Actually, there's a map of Kelvin on the poster map of GAZ1, alongside the ones of Threshold and Specularum. I've found a scan of it on the web, here.
It's not all that different from the fanon map of the city you found, still some additions have been made in the latter. Hope this helps. :)

Oh, another thing I remember seeing on your map: I suppose that Seragrad (being the end destination of the river boat "Crimpshrine" from the aforementioned Dungeon Magazine adventure) should be found on the banks of the Volaga, not inland. Since the village is the starting point for the exploration of the surrounding wild hill country, maybe it could have small wharfs where boats from Kelvin dock. The presence of a ferry or ford to the north bank of the river would make this point ideal for a stop. This means that the Volaga is navigable upriver at least up to Seragrad.

In my MGAZ1 I supposed the Castellan River to be navigable up to the village of Novaci, before the river comes down from the mountains. Maybe you can better assess if this is possible, according to the region's geography. If it is, this could mean boats from Novaci sailing downriver have to disembark before the ford at Seragrad, and then goods are loaded back on boats there to reach Kelvin. The navigability of the Volaga-Castelan river system is also quite important for resupplyment and reinforcement of Castellan Keep - otherwise soldiers would have to go on foot from Seragrad, carrying supplies for the Keep.

Just for the sake of it, still some more about the Shrill River and B5... :mrgreen:
First of all, I find your Dreamlands solution to the problem quite smart and elegant. :cool: This opens the choice to identify the Shrill with another on the known Karameikan rivers ("Shrill" - squeaky, strident - could just be a popular nickname of the river or part of it, after all).

However I'm still not persuaded about the opportunity to identify the Shrill with the Shuttarga. The quoted text from B1-9 doesn't seem decisive in one sense or another. Lack of settlement or hill markings in larger-scale maps is not significant, since canon sources keep ignoring and conflicting with each other; moreover, since you are drawing a 1mph map, lots of additiona details can be added which are not shown on 3mph or 8mph or 24mph maps.

All we know for sure, and should stay fixed is:
* the Shrill River flows in north-south (or south-north) direction in the tract shown on B5 map;
* the Shrill River is navigable by boat;
* navigating the Shrill River donwriver brings you to Kelvin at some point;
* Guido's Fort is found on the east bank of the Shrill, while the ruined Monastery on the Hill is found on the west bank;
* Guido's Fort is a "trading post", but is "isolated" (B5, page 3);
* the whole area of the B5 map measures about 3.7 (W-E) per 2.6 (N-S) miles.

According to B1-9 it seems there are no larger than village-size communities on the river course between Guido's Fort and Kelvin ("The hit points must he recovered by bed rest, which will be possible once the characters reach the Barony of Kelvin"), but I wouldn't take this to the letter, since it's only an adventure device. Also, Guido's Fort is upriver from Kelvin, but not necessarily "north" of it.

That said, I think placing Guido's Fort on the Shuttarga - therefore on the Duke's Road - will not make the village "isolated" at all... it would end up relatively close to Kelvin and Penhaligon, on a major trade and military road, along a trade route and in an area which could be quite populated (by Karameikan standards, at least). This isn't very fitting with the adventure setting of B5.

I also looked at agathokles' work on humanoid tribes in Karameikos (here and here), where the Hill hobgoblin tribe is called Leptar's Fist and is placed accordingly to the Monastery on the Hill in this map, that is on the west side of the Castellan River. In my History of Karameikos (Threshold #1), I placed the Monastery on the Hill nearer the easternmost branch of the Volaga, instead.

So, discarding the idea to add the Shrill River altogether, I have a couple of proposals to place B5 (reference are to GAZ1 map):
1) On the Castellan River, about 80-90 miles northeast of Penhaligon, south of the the river's first turn to the northwest toward the mountains;
2) On the Volaga River, on the short north-south tract of the river flow, northeast of Seragrad.

Thus I'd keep the whole Dreamlands story you devised, but would make Thendara transport the PCs to the Castellan (option 1) or Volaga (option 2) River, whom the locals call "Shrill River".

I prefer option (2), since it has hills, isolation, relative vicinity to Haven, and it would have the same river going from Guido's Fort to Kelvin. ;)

A thing to consider is the width of the Shrill River from B5 map, which is about at least 2,400' wide ( :o ) - so quite wide for a "lesser" river! Consider Po River (longest in Italy) is about 950' wide near Ferrara, the Tiber about 550' at Isola Tiberina in Rome, and Arno 310' at Ponte Vecchio in Florence... This would make the Shrill more than double the width of the Danube at Bratislava (which again is about 950')...
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Robin
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:57 pm

Thanx
Sturm already pointed me to the original map.

Ok I replaced Seragrad along the Volaga as per description of the Dungeon adventure Crimpshire.
When the Crimpshrine departs Kelvin, it moves swiftly south down Hillfollow/Shutterga River for two hours traveling 4mph before it slows to pass under the massive drawbridge which links the northern and southern segments of the King's Road. Three hours after it departed, the riverboat makes a sharp turn to the northeast to take it up the Castellan River to Seragrad. Going upstream its speed slows to 3mph and it travels some thirty miles upriver over the course of the day.
This section of the adventure seems somewhat off. It suggests the departure is on the Highforge area ( as seen by the distance covered is 8 miles) yet this is an empty region. At 16 miles nort of Kelvin is Dwallar which could be used instead as starting location then the downstream speed would be 8 mph instead 4. This also a more reasonable speed downstream when reflecting to the 3 miles upstream
Secondly the bridge mentioned does not connect the North/south, but east/west sides of the river.
Thirdly. this bridge seems not to be a drawbridge, but according the illustrations of KKoA a solid stone bridge. It could have a central drawbridge section though, outside the view in the art.
I noticed that the riverboat they used is a flat bottom (which sank---I have to add this location on the map with a Shipwreck) but replaced with a reinforced one later. Yet this enables the undeep vessel to cross the Bywater and Sielo's fort Fords. which could be 3' + deep fords.

As to Guido's fort I agree the adventure originally did have no settlements between Guido's fort and Kelvin, or before that. And the travelling time down is extremely long, without noticing any settlement, until they see Guido's fort. Hence I created the Shrill River Vortex Idea exiting from the Dreamlands...something Thendara is fully aware off, so does not need to add other magic than creating a simple boat. Yet there are so many canon settlements along all Karameikos adventures not taken into accout (or existing prior) to the Haven adventure. The whole concept feels off..hence I created the Shrill River Vortex from Dreamland ending on a river in Karameikos.
--I simply feel the suggested location along the Sutterga as per Sturm's map seems most reasonable as it is literally on the edge of the Hill demarkation.
It also fits the bill as the Shutterga is much wider and deeper than the Volaga, which is slow but wider downstream from Sielo's fort, and faster and smaller upstream. The only problem lies in the Gnomish settlement of Dwallar on the west shore, which should have been noticed, yet maybe the width of the river and the rain did prevent that.
--There is but one solution on the Volaga suggestion and that is that Guido's Fort and Sielo's Fort are the same, and the location of the Hill is the high plateaux of B10, and the Temple of the Dark Triad with the Hobgoblins is located somewhat deeper on the plateaux hill. This seems to fit the assumed empty shores below Guido's/Sielo's fort as most settlements are somewhat of the shore(and could be unnoticed, especially in bad weather), and the moor is wide and empty. It is used to transport logs as per B10 and Logic by flow alone to Kelvin (as per B10/Crimpshire adventure).
When looking at this I think the author of the Haven B1-9 fitt-in section might have looked upon the B10 map and might have misread Sielo for Guido.

I am as of yet still unsure which option would be the best; Shutterga brings in an extra location on the map, Volaga brings naming issues
Zendrolion wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:36 am

A thing to consider is the width of the Shrill River from B5 map, which is about at least 2,400' wide ( :o ) - so quite wide for a "lesser" river! Consider Po River (longest in Italy) is about 950' wide near Ferrara, the Tiber about 550' at Isola Tiberina in Rome, and Arno 310' at Ponte Vecchio in Florence... This would make the Shrill more than double the width of the Danube at Bratislava (which again is about 950')...
2400' wide?? Have to check B5 then. for this is off to any Karameikos river.
Crimpshire adventure gave perfect width for the variant rivers
Volaga 350’ wide
Shutterga 500-750’ wide

This extreme width furthers my idea the river Shrill is indeed an exiting Vortex river from Dreamlands. For in rain, especially heavy no sides are visible...thus camouflaging the fact it is a vortex tunnel.
And whatever river it ends in Karameikos. the locals use that section of river the same name.
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