The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

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St. Gray
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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by St. Gray » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:30 pm

Can view the map on a laptop, but not on my android tablet, for some reason. Anyway, the map is truly beautiful. Great job!

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Carillion » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:43 am

Hello Sturm,
I see, yet as Christian original maps were used in my campaign, with players, they are pretty much canon to me... so also replying to the discussion above, canon is really what you have already used and developed an emotional attachment to :)

But I'm still pondering on this and I'll probably try to draw a compromise between Christian's original map and your updated one..
I'm not sure that's a choice you need to make! Just because you submit a map onto the Piazza, doesn't mean that you have to stick to that map when running your own campaign. For example, I have a problem with the Canon positioning of the Ylaruam desert, so if I was to run another campaign, I would probably change this area quite radically from Canon sources. But if I was to submit a map of the Known World here on the Piazza, I would include the desert as it is shown in the canon maps, as I appreciate that that is what the canon material says, and it's what most people use. But by doing so, that doesn't mean I then have to then go along with that interpretation of Mystara when GMing my campaign at home.

So I suppose the real question is - did you draw your Brun map mainly as a resource for your own campaign, or did you draw it for the community to be an accurate summary of geographical features for existing Canon and Fanon material? For if the answer is the first scenario, then you definitely don't need to revisit anything at all. You only need to consider what I said if scenario two applies - and even then, I may not be right!
Last edited by Carillion on Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Carillion » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:49 am

Can view the map on a laptop, but not on my android tablet, for some reason. Anyway, the map is truly beautiful. Great job!
Thanks for the compliment! I'm also pleased that both you and Hugin can now view the map, as I know from personal experience how frustrating it can be when Google Docs decides to run off down the road somewhere...

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Kilr Kowalski » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:48 pm

Hi Carillion, nice map!

I have noted a difference between your Black_Mountains_4_Final and this map especially west of the river Kadich.
I noted that one of Sadjarkian's towns is called Taborak in the older map and Duzhar in the new one.
Also there are more forested regions around there in the new map. Is this a reimagining?

I only noted it because I was copying the Black Mountains map as a way to attempt my first go at HexGimp.
(I will show it to you when I'm happy with it, and then I'll be ready to make new maps I guess)

Mark.

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Carillion » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:25 pm

Hello Kilr Kowalski

Good spot! You are quite right about the differences - please take my Midlands map over my Black Mountains map with regards to any discrepancies.

To cut a long story short, my Black Mountains map was a part replica of an early Christian Constantin map. However, after I posted my work on the Piazza, Christian appeared on this forum after a 15 year absence! He has subsequently began revising parts of his original material, to tie it up more closely with canon. Therefore, there are a few changes that now need to be made to my Black Mountains map to reflect this.

The main differences are:

1) The North West of the map, which has had a bit of an overhaul as you've noticed;

2) I came up with names for the unnamed towns that were on Christian's original map, but I have now had confirmation from Christian what the names were originally supposed to be (they were actually hidden away in an article on Pandius, but I had missed it). Therefore, a number of town names (fortunately not all) are incorrect on my Black Mountains map as it stands. However, I can confirm that all of the Hule town names are accurate, as these were all labelled on Christian's original map.

I plan to revisit this map shortly and make the relevant changes, so it ties up with my Midlands map. I can also confirm that most of my Black Mountains map doesn't need any changes, so what you are currently copying is mostly right!

Finally, it has to be said that if this is your first GIMP map, you've picked a tricky task with all those river tributaries, roads, escarpments and nation boundaries! Make sure you use multiple layers to make it easier on yourself.

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Kilr Kowalski » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:53 pm

Thanks.

Years ago I was using Photoshop but I don't have a copy for my current OS. :(

Yes, I am having trouble with the lines, however I have made a set of brushes for the borders that seem okay.
I thought I would try something tricky and take my time smoothing over the hiccoughs.

I am not yet up to names on the map- is that the article where he names the towns in an anticlockwise order starting from the north or something like that? - I'll search by author I guess.

I may as well adjust my upper-right corner of the map now though.

I guess aside from the attractiveness of the map, the collaboration is one of the rewarding features of this process. What do you think?

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Carillion » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:44 pm

Hello Kilr Kowalski

I've managed to locate the relevant article with all of the correct town names on it, which is here:

http://pandius.com/Sardjikjian_Market_Intelligence.pdf

If I recall correctly, the Capital for each dominion is named first, followed by the towns moving from West to East. The Capital cities are already labelled correctly on my Black Mountains map - it is some of the other towns that need their names changing.

I hope that helps!

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Kilr Kowalski » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:56 am

Yep, sure does.

May get onto it tonight if not distracted by internets.

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by julius_cleaver » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:26 pm

Sturm wrote:
Carillion wrote:Therefore, you appear to be using curvature for the placement of the Yalu Sea, while not using curvature for the shape of Brun. This is what is throwing things out and causing the discrepancies.
I see, yet as Christian original maps were used in my campaign, with players, they are pretty much canon to me... so also replying to the discussion above, canon is really what you have already used and developed an emotional attachment to :)
But I'm still pondering on this and I'll probably try to draw a compromise between Christian's original map and your updated one..
Birchbeer's map also doesn't show the Borean river going trough the GazF nations either.
Yes, but IMO looking at GAZ10 and HW canon maps the Borean river was supposed to pass in a straight course through the GazF area, but as it wasn't included in GazF maps (probably because it wasn't in the DotE canon 72mph map either) now we had to bend it and move it more to the west that was originally intended to be...
I am happy to add the Living Alliance to my map, and get rid of a few dead land hexes in order to accommodate it. On this note, are there any other nations on your map you want added to mine? I couldn't find any source material for a lot of them, which is why I missed them off initially.
You are obviously free to use as much of my map as you like and to not use anything you don't like, anyway almost everything on mine came from fanon sources at the Vaults, so I'd say from one of these maps:
http://pandius.com/centbrun.html
http://pandius.com/boreasmap.jpg
http://pandius.com/yalumap.jpg
If you cannot find something, please ask and I'll try to help you :)
All good observations Sturm. I am afraid that it would take a lot of rearranging on my part to use that map wholesale. I developed a lot of the area back in 1991, and am pretty attached to it. I wish I had spent more time in the past collaborating with all of you on Vaults and post forums. Eventually I put my map up on Vaults and you can see what I mean. But it might be possible to include everyone's work with mine. I constantly notice that the Yalu River is far too South and East from it's placement on Brun on the Master Set inner cover map. If it were moved more West and North, I think the whole thing could mesh well. Placing Christian's realm's more near their original locations. The River Aldyn does run through my maps...so that might be a point of agreement. I am going to make a new thread about this though.
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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by julius_cleaver » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:30 pm

Carillion wrote:Hello Kilr Kowalski

Good spot! You are quite right about the differences - please take my Midlands map over my Black Mountains map with regards to any discrepancies.

To cut a long story short, my Black Mountains map was a part replica of an early Christian Constantin map. However, after I posted my work on the Piazza, Christian appeared on this forum after a 15 year absence! He has subsequently began revising parts of his original material, to tie it up more closely with canon. Therefore, there are a few changes that now need to be made to my Black Mountains map to reflect this.

The main differences are:

1) The North West of the map, which has had a bit of an overhaul as you've noticed;

2) I came up with names for the unnamed towns that were on Christian's original map, but I have now had confirmation from Christian what the names were originally supposed to be (they were actually hidden away in an article on Pandius, but I had missed it). Therefore, a number of town names (fortunately not all) are incorrect on my Black Mountains map as it stands. However, I can confirm that all of the Hule town names are accurate, as these were all labelled on Christian's original map.

I plan to revisit this map shortly and make the relevant changes, so it ties up with my Midlands map. I can also confirm that most of my Black Mountains map doesn't need any changes, so what you are currently copying is mostly right!

Finally, it has to be said that if this is your first GIMP map, you've picked a tricky task with all those river tributaries, roads, escarpments and nation boundaries! Make sure you use multiple layers to make it easier on yourself.
Hope you still have all Your original map names Carillion...I'm sure the ideas you had about them could be used somewhere on Brun in the future!
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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Sturm » Thu May 29, 2014 9:36 am

Hi, I then updated my Brun map, the new ones is here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12173
and the thread has also the link to the old one in the Vaults.
I ended up taking several suggestions from Carillion's map (i.e. I moved the Yalu sea to the west) but mine is still a bit different, as I do not want the Yalu sea to be too much to the west..
I also moved all the Seven Duchies to the east, even if their position is different in my map.
That just to say that I appreciated much Carillion's work even if I chose to do things a bit differently.

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Carillion » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:07 pm

That just to say that I appreciated much Carillion's work even if I chose to do things a bit differently.
You're welcome!

With all of the conflicting canon and fanon material out there, there was never going to be a complete agreement on what was in the Midlands. In fact, the Midlands is probably the area in Mystara where people have the most conflicting views!

Incidentally, I do agree with most of your Brun map - it's just my take on that particular region is slightly different. That being said, I am tweaking a few parts of my map to reflect some of the feedback I got on the relevant thread here on the Piazza. I will post my map again on the Piazza once I've finished making those changes.

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Sturm » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:04 am

Good, conflicting views can provide inspiration and/or create very mystaran cultural blends :)
will be happy to see your updated map!

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Carillion » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:27 pm

Hello All.

I've finally got around to making a number of changes to the map in response to the comments I received previously. The updated map can be viewed here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1WEBq0 ... ZyVEU/edit

The changes I have made include:

1) adding several humanoid tribes that were on Sturm's map that were not showing on mine;
2) Reverting the lands around Urzud back to normal (as opposed to dead lands). It makes little sense to have the old humanoid capital in the middle of a potentially radioactive area, as this area was populated by the humanoids after the destruction of Blackmoor, and not before;
3) Reverting some other areas in the Borean Valley from dead land to normal land. Some concern was expressed exactly how much dead land there was on the map (especially as according to JTR's work, the dead lands stretch some way north from the top of my map). Having reviewed the material, I agree that the initial ideas were overdoing it a bit, so more lands are now no longer showing as dead in this area;
4) Adding the living Alliance to the map. This was shown in Sturm's map, but not on mine. I have however upgraded the settlement from a village to a fort, due to the dangerous area this settlement is situated in;
5) I've added more forest both South and East of the Health's Spring, in line with what little canon material there is available in this area. This includes the Savage Elves forest area;
6) I've Added a Water Vortex which flows from the Elemental Plane of Water into Health's Spring. This was discussed at the bottom of this thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947&p=141325#p141325
7) Various formatting tweaks, to make the map more presentable.

The map should now also tie up with the one I did previously, which details the area south of this map. That map can be found here:

http://www.pandius.com/m_nblkmt.html

Any further comments welcome!
Last edited by Carillion on Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Sturm » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:46 pm

Very interesting!
A note about the Living Alliance that was my own creation (unlike the other names and tags present on my Brun map http://pandius.com/m_brun.html, that come from canon or fan sources) as I imagined that there must be some resistance against the Kingdom of the Dead (created in the GazF series).
It should be an alliance of many different cultures, human, humanoids and others (rakastas, lupins, giants) thrown all together by the expansion of the Kingdom of the Dead...

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Carillion » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:36 pm

Thanks for the info Sturm. I couldn't find anything about the Living Alliance on the vaults.

Going by what you have just said, I think I was right to upgrade the settlement to a fort. It would also probably be a very well guarded one as well!

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Sturm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:48 am

Well as central Brun is a very big plain I imagine it has many nomadic population and a tendency to develop big empires (as the Dorfin Empire that I suppose existed in the past and fell).. The Living Alliance should now be composed of formerly nomadic people that banded together to resist the Kingdom of the Dead, so they should still have a partially nomadic lifestyle but also fortified communities. The Kingdom of the Dead rather than a Thanatos dominated wasteland I imagine more like Nyx's dream, i.e. many intelligent undeads that wish to create a lasting nation. Obviously not all the surrounding people are likely to share that particular dream. In general inhabitants of central Brun should include IMO many humanoids, several human cultures (native americans, mongols, celtics, northeners, all of them could be present), lupins and rakastas, gnomes, maybe some elves and dwarves, werecreatures too probably. Other "humanimals" could be present (I believe Khuzd proposed Muskoxtaurs and AD&D as many others as squirrelfolks and such, the Savage Coast also as Goatmen, Jorri, Mythu'nn Folk, Phanatons).
More ancient people that lived in the area could still be present, particularly giants, brutemen, chameleon men, dragons, cryons, sasquatchs, garls, fairies (including centaurs, fauns, drakes) and any kind of worms (the savage coast monstrous compendium has even the intelligent worms Wurmlings).

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Zendrolion » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:38 pm

Thread necromancy!
I resurrected this thread due to discussions going on with Carillion and Sturm in another more recent topic about Galannor’s (from Mishler’s Midlands articles) location on the map. This of course doesn’t affect only Galannor, but also the Seven Duchies and the Five Tribes coming from the same article.

Just to clarify ideas to myself about Mishler’s Midlands various locations, I made a quick-and-dirty superimposition of labels taken from Mishler's description over a map of Brun in the latest version released by Thorf. I've used only material from Mishler's Midlands here, not anything from Constantin’s, OldDawg’s, Robin’s, Carillion's, or Sturm's maps.

The outlying blue circle should represent the whole Midlands region; the red dashed line represents more or less the "Lands of Law" (including Galannor, the Seven Duchies, and most of the Five Tribes) according to Mishler's geographical references; the pink dashed line represents instead the approximate area inside which the Kingdom of Galannor should lay. Galandar (old Urzud according to Mishler) has been located "near the headwaters of the Borean River" (as Mishler has it), even if that is not the canonic location of Urzud from GAZ10 (which should be found at the fork of the Borean River, just north of the larger Midlands area. I’ve not placed uncertain locations for which no indication is given by Mishler, such as the dwarven thanedom of Radrast, the Great Pit, or the major elven clans.

All this area, if compared to Constantin’s material about Hule and lands north of it, should be found north of the Kavkaz region, but irrimediably overlaps with Douzbakjian and Sardjikjian. Also, the presence of the massive Ozungan Plateau in Constantin’s version limits the room available for Galannor – which, in the present version of Sturm and Carillion, is found quite isolated on the eastern side of the Plateau itself.

So, instead of pushing the whole setting of Mishler north of that of Constantin, displacing as a consequence most of Mishler’s locations in regard to one another, in my opinion we could attempt to interweave the two settings; this is also possible due to the common inspiration of both – i.e. a “Kingdom/Land of Law” north of Hule which counterbalanced the power of the Temple of Chaos in the hagiarchy. In the future, this will need some work to make Constantin’s and Mishler’s backrgound story of this area fit together, in order to avoid useless duplications or redundant characters or events.

I’ll have a clearer idea of how to do this when Thorf’s updated map of Brun at 72mph will be released. In the meantime, the changes I’m thinking about in regard to the Sturm/Carillion map are substantially four:

1) moving (or expanding) Galannor from the present location to the north-west, south of the High Borean Valley and north of the Ozungan Plateau; this will be more in line with Mishler’s location of Galannor in the “north and east” of the Midlands area.

2) moving the Seven Duchies to the south-west, into the area of the Guinach River, the Bazdayan Hills, and toward the Great Zdredanyan Forest. The duchies don’t need to border with one another, so they can be freely spread into this area, with existing semi-nomadic tribes (not only Mishler’s Ausdran, but also Constantin’s Balitan and Kazmen tribes – besides, Mishler’s article says in addition to the Five Tribes of Law [Ausdran, Andar, Roanna, Shonak, Uimach], there are also another five tribes of Chaos and seven tribes of Balance living in the Midlands) living between them. Also, there should be a number of minor baronies attached to each duchy, so maybe part of their hexes is actually made up of those baronies; as a side note, since apparently nothing is known about the settlements of Darathul, Uzdahl, and Koyshyi (located between Douzbakjian and Sardjikjian), they could be considered part of some of the duchies or baronies from Mishler’s article.

3) the Roanna tribe, described by Mishler as a culture similar to the Children of the Elk in Atruaghin, should live in a forested area, and found in the south-east area of the Midlands. Then I’d move them into one of the forest, even on the Ozungan Plateau could work – there’s plenty of room for both them and the elves.

4) due to the different sources of the material, “syncretic” maps like Sturm’s and Carillion’s have some labels which, in my opinion, could be associated one another in order to reduce the number of different peoples on the map – which often are mostly undetailed, so not much useful besides occupying some hexes on the map.
For example, the “Savage elves” (from LoZompatore’s map) could be tied with any one existing group of elves in the area, since their source is the Dragonlord Trilogy set around 500 AC; the same can be said of the “kingdom” of Taneilim (from the Book of Wondrous Inventions).
Also, Mishler mentions “three major elven clans and a dozen minor” ones: at least some of them could be the same clans which according to Constantin dwell on the Ozungan Plateau – and the plateau’s forest could be the same “Wildwood” mentioned in AC1 and included both by LoZompatore and Carillion in their maps.

What do you think?
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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Sturm » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:06 am

In Threshold issue #17 http://pandius.com/Threshold_17.pdf, which was focused on Western Brun, my article with the timeline did include Constantin's, Mishler's and Omnibius' works, but I've not tried yet to update my map of Brun http://pandius.com/m_brun.html with all the new info.
The base map was originally taken from Kal's version and still contains several cities placed by Kal which I never had time to clean up, so I should eventually update it extensively, taking into account also what you wrote above and Carillion's work.
However right now I'm busy with Threshold #19 (Immortals) and #20 (Skothar) so further work on Brun will have to wait :)

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Zendrolion » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:41 pm

Sturm wrote:However right now I'm busy with Threshold #19 (Immortals) and #20 (Skothar) so further work on Brun will have to wait :)
"Thorf, we're waiting for you!" :D :mrgreen: :cool:
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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Carillion » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:24 pm

Hello Zendrolion,

Thanks for posting that map! I think it will prove to be a useful reference point on where to place Mishler's nations and tribes in the southern Borean area.

Onto the points you raised in the same order:
1) moving (or expanding) Galannor from the present location to the north-west, south of the High Borean Valley and north of the Ozungan Plateau; this will be more in line with Mishler’s location of Galannor in the “north and east” of the Midlands area.
Reading Mishler's work again, I think that your proposed location is probably closer to his intended geographic location than what we currently have. As a result, we could move it there, whilst leaving the area to the north (around canon Urzud) to the humanoids, and north of that will be the Kingdom of the Dead (which we've agreed to reduce in size). We would then have to also move some of the seven duchies to the south west as an alternative placement for them to free up an area for Galannor itself.
2) moving the Seven Duchies to the south-west, into the area of the Guinach River, the Bazdayan Hills, and toward the Great Zdredanyan Forest. The duchies don’t need to border with one another, so they can be freely spread into this area, with existing semi-nomadic tribes (not only Mishler’s Ausdran, but also Constantin’s Balitan and Kazmen tribes – besides, Mishler’s article says in addition to the Five Tribes of Law [Ausdran, Andar, Roanna, Shonak, Uimach], there are also another five tribes of Chaos and seven tribes of Balance living in the Midlands) living between them. Also, there should be a number of minor baronies attached to each duchy, so maybe part of their hexes is actually made up of those baronies; as a side note, since apparently nothing is known about the settlements of Darathul, Uzdahl, and Koyshyi (located between Douzbakjian and Sardjikjian), they could be considered part of some of the duchies or baronies from Mishler’s article.
I'm happy to move some of the duchies down there, especially as another placement for some of the Duchies will be needed if we are moving Galannor itself. I would be reluctant to move the duchies into the Zedranyan forest itself, as canon material confirms that barbarian tribes mainly live in this area (this does however mean that we can move some of Mishler's tribes there). If you look at my current Borean map of this area, I would suggest moving Mardun, Markel, Harlun and Darham whilst keeping the other three roughly where they are (I agree with you that we can spread these seven duchies out). We could move one north of the town of Koyshyi, maybe two along the Gulnach river, and one into the Bazdayan Hills, as you suggest. As for Darathul. Uzdahl and Koyshyi, they were Christian Constantin's creation, and are trading posts belonging to Sardjikjian. They are individual settlements and do not form their own dominions, so the duchies can be very close by (and in fact could explain the current position of these trading posts).
3 The Roanna tribe, described by Mishler as a culture similar to the Children of the Elk in Atruaghin, should live in a forested area, and found in the south-east area of the Midlands. Then I’d move them into one of the forest, even on the Ozungan Plateau could work – there’s plenty of room for both them and the elves.
Agreed. I seem to have missed this tribe off entirely in error and they should be restored!
4) due to the different sources of the material, “syncretic” maps like Sturm’s and Carillion’s have some labels which, in my opinion, could be associated one another in order to reduce the number of different peoples on the map – which often are mostly undetailed, so not much useful besides occupying some hexes on the map.
For example, the “Savage elves” (from LoZompatore’s map) could be tied with any one existing group of elves in the area, since their source is the Dragonlord Trilogy set around 500 AC; the same can be said of the “kingdom” of Tanelim (from the Book of Wondrous Inventions).
Also, Mishler mentions “three major elven clans and a dozen minor” ones: at least some of them could be the same clans which according to Constantin dwell on the Ozungan Plateau – and the plateau’s forest could be the same “Wildwood” mentioned in AC1 and included both by LoZompatore and Carillion in their maps.
I agree for the most part with this. I would however suggest keeping the Wildwood where it is, as my placement and that of LoZompatore's currently line up, and I think we should try and avoid discrepancies where we can. Furthermore, Christian Constantin didn't dispute this placement when I worked on mapping this area with him, so I don't think he intended the Ozungan plateau to be the location of the Wildwood either.

Lazompatore's placement of the Tanelim is to the immediate southwest of the Cradle, which going by the Hollow World map, is heavily forested, and so should be ideal as the Tanelim are elves. I actually disagree with Christian's terrain on that part of his Midlands map, as he shows it to be grassland when canon shows it to be forested. I therefore think we should keep the Tanelim in line with Lazompatore's placement as well (and again avoiding future discrepancies).

One issue I'm not sure what to do with is that of the Shonaks. Olddawg wrote about these in the fan Gazetteer series, and they were based on the real world Innuits. I'm not sure if Mishler's Shonaks are the same, and if so, I'm not convinced about placing them in central Borea, as these individuals normally live in tundra terrain (or thereabouts).

Anyway, many thanks to both you and Sturm for your thoughts on Borea over the last week or so, as I think it has definitely made it more clear to me what revisions need to be made in the Southern area. And of course, any further comments are also welcome!

Regards,

Matt.

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Re: The High Borean Valley and the Midlands

Post by Zendrolion » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:57 pm

Carillion wrote:Thanks for posting that map! I think it will prove to be a useful reference point on where to place Mishler's nations and tribes in the southern Borean area.
You're welcome! I'm eager to do some work on this area - with your help, of course - but the first thing I had to do was to clarify to myself the location of the various fan-created realms.

Onto the points you raised in the same order:
Carillion wrote:Reading Mishler's work again, I think that your proposed location is probably closer to his intended geographic location than what we currently have. As a result, we could move it there, whilst leaving the area to the north (around canon Urzud) to the humanoids, and north of that will be the Kingdom of the Dead (which we've agreed to reduce in size). We would then have to also move some of the seven duchies to the south west as an alternative placement for them to free up an area for Galannor itself.
Agreed.
Carillion wrote:I would be reluctant to move the duchies into the Zedranyan forest itself, as canon material confirms that barbarian tribes mainly live in this area (this does however mean that we can move some of Mishler's tribes there).
I understand what you mean; Mishler's Uimach are already located there (at the border with Hule), but the Andar and Ausdran tribes could be candidates as well. This would mean that the Bazdayan Hills are roughly the south-western limit of the settled lands.
Carillion wrote:As for Darathul. Uzdahl and Koyshyi, they were Christian Constantin's creation, and are trading posts belonging to Sardjikjian. They are individual settlements and do not form their own dominions, so the duchies can be very close by (and in fact could explain the current position of these trading posts).
These three settlement were not featured in his old map, however. I don't know of any background story about these settlements, and I did not find anything in the Vaults either. So I suppose Christian added them in the new map only to help keep and explain the ties between Sardjikjian and Douzbakjian, which had become distant in the updated map. If we insert some of the Seven Duchies between Sardjikjian and Douzbakjian these settlements (isolated trading posts among semi-nomadic tribes and unsettled lands) the scenario is going to change a lot, since the lands between the two kingdoms become settled, allowing trade to pass through existing towns in Mishler's duchies and baronies. I mean, it's not that we can't keep the three towns as trading posts of Sardjikjian, only that once we put duchies and baronies in between, the reasons of their presence has to be reassessed and given a second thought.

As a side note, IMHO Christian had better keep Douzbakjian where it was in the old map, adding a large river or lake in place of the "old" Yalu Sea, instead of moving Douzbakjian north-west to the coast of the new sea, as he has done. The latter, in fact, creates serious problems with many parts of his Hulean/Midlands history - just one example: Kiteng (Sardjikjian's capital, hosting the ancient Temple of Law), was originally located on the shores of the Yalu Sea, which became smaller centuries after due to a drought; this part has to be rewritten if one uses the updated map.
Carillion wrote:I agree for the most part with this. I would however suggest keeping the Wildwood where it is, as my placement and that of LoZompatore's currently line up, and I think we should try and avoid discrepancies where we can. Furthermore, Christian Constantin didn't dispute this placement when I worked on mapping this area with him, so I don't think he intended the Ozungan plateau to be the location of the Wildwood either.
Well, Christian likely didn't intend anything about the Wildwood, since it's only a placename attached to one of the NPCs in AC1; its placement was due to LoZompatore, who ten years ago made the most obvious choice to put in the middle of the Great Midland Forest the "oldest forest of the continent". But Wildwood could be placed nearly everywhere in Brun, actually. So, as long as we keep the Wildwood in the Midland Forest we are staying true to LoZompatore's placement. Also, consider that his map is hexless, so the location can be adjusted a little as needed.
Carillion wrote:Lazompatore's placement of the Tanelim is to the immediate southwest of the Cradle, which going by the Hollow World map, is heavily forested, and so should be ideal as the Tanelim are elves. I actually disagree with Christian's terrain on that part of his Midlands map, as he shows it to be grassland when canon shows it to be forested. I therefore think we should keep the Tanelim in line with Lazompatore's placement as well (and again avoiding future discrepancies).
As above, at this stage Taneilim is but a name. The odd connection LoZompatore devised between Taneilim and the humanoid (Wogar's) migration route allows for many different locations of the kingdom, so there's no need to feel restrained by a map which was only intended to be a rough compilation of hints and ideas from canon sources. That said, I'm perfectly ok with LoZompatore's placement of Taneilim; I only wanted to say that - given the number of elven clans in the area (Taneilim, Savage Elves, 3 major and a dozen minor clans from Mishler, elves of the Ozungan Plateau, elves of the Wildwood, etc.) - maybe some of these references could be tied to a more narrow number of clans.
Carillion wrote:One issue I'm not sure what to do with is that of the Shonaks. Olddawg wrote about these in the fan Gazetteer series, and they were based on the real world Innuits. I'm not sure if Mishler's Shonaks are the same, and if so, I'm not convinced about placing them in central Borea, as these individuals normally live in tundra terrain (or thereabouts).
While OldDawg's Shonaks are inspired by the Inuits, Mishler's Shonaks are portrayed as "Siberian, Tungus and Mongolian" peoples. So the two people, while sharing the same name, are apparently quite different. Also, Constantin's Sendaryan tribes seem to have in common with Mishler's Shonaks a similar cultural reference, being inspired by Siberian and Altaic tribes. So, maybe, we could consider that Mishler's Shonaks are related to the Sendaryan tribes - or their one of those tribes themselves - and change their name to avoid confusing them with OldDawg's M-Inuit Shonaks.
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

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