1 Mile Hex Mapping

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Robin
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:14 pm

Thanx Guys
This is information I needed.
The Border will thus be placed in the middle.
I will use the green farmlands on the ethengar side by Glantrian Refugees, also along the Andreyev river in the NW of the grasslands.
Great idea, and indeed very credible.

as to the symbols used; The pure green hexes were used by micky as farmlands here. later he used variations to differentiate between farmland produce(enclosed sections of land used to grow any mass ground produce (still same green hex by canon or his older maps, but later one with small rectangles within as farms just as betti did) and farmland cattle(enclosed areas of grazable land to enable cattle to feed) a more bluegreen hex. The original pale greenish hex was the used for clear unused lands(this is the one with the greates variation of real content.
Gaz Ethengar introduced a further differentiation between Poor grazing Land, Choice grazing land while also using the grazable lands/pastorable meadows hex. All three of these are thus NOT enclosed areas of grazable land(in varieties of function; poor-medium-choice.
As such the pale green hex is more and more used for empty flatlands without any function or use. it is not poor, nor rich..most probably herbs, and large areas of bare ground, with mosses or lichens on it, or wet with herbs, and a softer underground, yet no marshland.. both are nothing functional unless plowed, fertilized, irrigated(in/out) or used to erect stuctures upon.

I am tempted to also use the farmland hex symbol with rectangles, and make a new somewhat similar one for the cattle fields, but refrained from doing so as the existing colored forms differentiate enough, and the extra detailing (originating from programs like Hexographer), in my opinion, adds more visual 'noise' on the map. Also if I would do this I have to remake all the older maps, with these hexes. :o ;( not something I am very happy about..so the colored one function well..thus far...so until now they stay.

As to the Ports/anchoring locations...I had not read Gaz Glantri on this subject yet, but it would have some logic...yet I would not use these as most riverside placed settlements would have something of a harbor/dock/shore functionable as these. Only where the harbor/dock would be significantly away from any other location (and thus also having a trail/road going further ashore) I could use these.

As to the Ethengar's assumed aggressiveness to anything Glantri, I also thank...I might indeed have assumed a continuous hightened state of alert, and this is indeed not logical (both mental, psychological and otherwise) So their might be a sens of 'take care' amongst the vessels as to the Ethengar riverside, but most probably these will remain visual threats/insults or some verbal, and even less weaponized.

As the river Dol-Anur further continues fully through Ethengar, I might assume all vessels stop at the most southern location , or Darokin merchant vessels allowed to continue, being followed by Ethengar scouts, until they reach their location(of course this can only be Ethengar locations)..they can't continue into the Broken Land....(But in the Future might have real use in the new Anur Lake when it flooded the Yellow Orkia and the Mucks, until inflow and evaporation(there is geothermal heat produced under Yellow Orkia making Yellow Orkia and Gnollistan very warm, and now making the Lake warmer than it normally would) balance out into this new but also original lake as per fanon history maps.

Again Gcko and Sturm Great Thanx for the information :lol: . I will bring it into the map :mrgreen:
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:09 pm

Ethengar NW
Updated the map slightly as per above information
https://www.deviantart.com/6inchnails/a ... -769569263
More work will follow
Thanx
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:04 pm

Ethengar NW https://www.deviantart.com/6inchnails/ ... -769569263
Readjusted the Betti map, according Micky's information (pity he did not have a detailed map of the region).
As thus added meteorlogical effects, readjusted mountain tops, mountain chains.
Placed Micky's mentioned Infrastructure (trails and Roads

What to do next on the western side?;
Derive settlement names...some I'll take from Betti's Map, but most I will superimpose on Betti's locations taken from Micky's earlier information, or canon sources(Like Ghost of lion Castle). River/creek, and other geological names where not mentioned by Micky will be from Betti or canon
As to the many Ruins on Betti's map...I have placed them already, yet I feel Glantri would not allow fortifications to stay abandoned, and I imagine these will be rapidly restored and improved; they have magic enough to do this. Other locations; like ruined settlements will stay abandoned.
As Glantri has many Mage towers, Neither Micky's map or Betti's map reflect these. I will add thesw to the map based on Micky's information, and suggestions elsewhere

Anny suggestions or additions you like to have...please inform me and maybe I'll place these (mostly place enough).

Up to the grassy plane itself and the Dol-Anur in the upcoming week...I have to located the former coarse of the river as per 2300BC maps...as this dead/dry/abandoned riverbed, would still have some bio-geological features, which reveal this former coarse. and to do this is again a nast job to find out. however, as being fanmade, this somewhat different coarse of the Dol-Anur could have been a fanon/creator flaw or was planed, Eittherway I like this, as this directly brings more variation to the grasslands.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:32 pm

Ethengar NW
01-10-2018 Infused as much of Micky's Information Isettlement labels, Mountain and river and other labels, but also infrastructure; roads and trails, what was absolutely missing in Betti;s map) on the Viscounty of Blofeld, The Free Province of Tchernovodsk, and the Viscounty of Mongolia, and the Principality of Bramyra as possible into the mainly Betti's map(see above). I had to make several changes due canon input from Ghost of Lion Castle adventure, and where the Betti map and Micky's older information clashed, but it seems I got a good result now. :mrgreen:
Ghost of Lion Castle's settlement ; Sarsdell (190), on the Trans- Boldavia Bramyra Highway, A village similar to Kaschar(Micky's description), with a market, 3 constebulary, stronghouse, and well-visited tavern. Location start of the Ghost of Lion Castle adventure. (suggested trail chosen is marked in orange dots on the map)
https://www.deviantart.com/6inchnails/a ... -769569263
Main issue now is altitudes and flowdirections.(which are totally missing on Betti's AND Micky's map (except mountain tops)) which will be out in upcoming days...and this is hard :shock: , for i have to realy visually think in 3d again on the whole area :o ...and create the altitudes based on canon and logic :geek: .

Just tell me Iif you like it thus far...
Any extra input is ofcourse also welcome
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:39 pm

Ethengar NW
https://www.deviantart.com/6inchnails/a ... -769569263
Infusing the 3050BC settlement locations from Sturm's 3050BC map (see era combination map here;https://www.deviantart.com/6inchnails/a ... -763398401 in the leftuppercorner ) I game upon the happy coincidence of the Namgyal-Oyun location being both very fertile, and holding one of these ancient Blackmoor settlements of the New Blackmoor colonistst. Others are placed along the Collossus Mountains and in the northern foothills; named "Ancient Ruin"

More will come up
working on altitudes already
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Gecko » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:39 pm

Robin wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:32 pm
Ethengar NW
01-10-2018 Infused as much of Micky's Information..., and the Viscounty of Mongolia
Oh dear.... Micky had agreed that that name needed to go (somewhere later in that thread) but I don’t remember if he ever got around to renaming it.

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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:23 pm

Gecko wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:39 pm
Robin wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:32 pm
Ethengar NW
01-10-2018 Infused as much of Micky's Information..., and the Viscounty of Mongolia
Oh dear.... Micky had agreed that that name needed to go (somewhere later in that thread) but I don’t remember if he ever got around to renaming it.
Oh my. Thanx
however, this can be reasonably easy changed.
is it this post of you?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2331&start=100#p33017
I totally understand the issue
I would go for Tsagaan in this case as the region was probably named after its major produce, as there are no important settlements, or geological named locations. On one hand, it would lure thieves here on the otherhand, its near to impossible to keep this a secret for long..especially thus long, so I would indeed choose Viscounty of Tsagaan
A Flaemish name would indeed also be logical, circimstances taken into account.
(next text added later)
I checked the other posts Micky made and it seems, as by this map (although barely readable due Photobucket technology methods--I couldn't seem to get a clear version to download--then I found the dropbox link he gave to me where it was also placed. here it ishttps://www.dropbox.com/sh/9ta2j6mjk4qf ... i+1014.png
it was changed into "Steenwijk"... so changed Viscounty of Mongolia into Viscounty of Steenwijk. I changed this minor into Steenwijck , as the additional 'c' makes a more Flaemish instead Dutch naming.(just something non Dutch/non Flaemish would not know the difference, and Since I am Dutch and lived a short period in Flaemish Belgium, I know :mrgreen: )
It also seems I have to revise the major trail somewhat, although it does not seem to fit Micky's 1 mile map of the region either, so maybe I keep that as it is now.
https://www.deviantart.com/6inchnails/a ... -769569263

I will also renamed the Villages which Betti did create..the weird names(Luoping, Arama, buson creek, Mnt Gollub, Mnt Ut,Eslund Creek, etc) had absolutely no Flaemish feel. Making these into the following similar sounding, but much more Flaemish ones;
Arama= Karamel(know for making caramel treats out of the local sugar beets),Image
Luoping=Knoping, after the practise of making wooden buttons (knoop) with ropes(houtje-touwtje knoop)Image
Buson creek= Bert Creek(named after an important farmer (Bert Klomp-known to most as Bert only) in the region. responsible for a grid like irrigation works on the hills, enabling more growth on the hills Image).
Mnt Gollub=Mnt Grolsch(named after the famous cloisterbeer they make here--in a brown!! glass bottleImage,
Mnt Ut=Mnt Hop (named after many Hops farms on its hills used in the beer making https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humulus_lupulus, Image
Eslund Creek=Ashland creek, named after the many knotted(cut) Ash trees here used in making toolhandles Image

I thought about renaming Briasma and Pastense also, but Briasma is older as per its description so has another linguistic basis, and Pastense, may not be Flaemish, but has a more Thyatian feel...also acceptable, as the village might have been created with the though of speaking a lot about the past (the meteor location for example, or how platinum came to be). this would also make it logical the region will have geologists and a library dedicated to the geological past. so these both names created by Micky will stay.
Thanx for pointing me to this ;)
the next update will have all these changes
I truly hope Micky will return healthy and kicking, I fearr the worst has happened...as everywhere his sites are stopped in activity or removed. ;(

footnote; USA commerce forced Grolsch to make beer in green bottles(like it did with Heineken also), it as originally in brown bottles. they were unsuccesful in enforcing the bottle to change its porcelain cap, into a metal/cork one. It is however proven beer has a longer storage duration in brown bottles and a better kept taste. Grolsch is now recreating the brown bottle for special taste beers, and although also selling beer in metal/cork caps, refuses to drop the porcekain caps..,it has a massive fan based client group.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Gecko » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:33 pm

Robin wrote: however, this can be reasonably easy changed.
good, I was worried about how hard it would be to change labels using paint
actually, the next message after where he agreed that it needed to change.
A Flaemish name would indeed also be logical, circimstances taken into account.
I checked the other posts Micky made and it seems ... it was changed into "Steenwijk"... I changed this minor into Steenwijck , as the additional 'c' makes a more Flaemish instead Dutch naming.(just something non Dutch/non Flaemish would not know the difference, and Since I am Dutch and lived a short period in Flaemish Belgium, I know :mrgreen: )
Checking the spreadsheet, I see that he did change it to Steenwijk. I imagine the change to Steenwijck would be something he would fully support if he were here.

On another matter (I'm not sure if this was something from Micky's maps that I never noticed which got copied over to yours or something you did): I noticed some Mines listed as "Steel" and "Bronze" mines. Those are not naturally occuring* alloys - ie they are man-made, not mined out of the ground. You can mine the components (Iron, Copper, Tin, etc.) but not the alloys.

(*=except for some uncommon cases of low grade arsenical-bronze - and even then that is usually a secondary product adjacent to a more profitable vein of copper or other minerals.)

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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:11 pm

Gecko wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:33 pm
Robin wrote: however, this can be reasonably easy changed.
good, I was worried about how hard it would be to change labels using paint
Actually in paint it is not that difficult. I remove the letter by inking them the color they arr located on, and place new ones over it, or I cut/paste new hexes over the letters of the hex they were placed on and then place the new text.
Gecko wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:33 pm
actually, the next message after where he agreed that it needed to change.
Ah Thanx
Gecko wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:33 pm
Checking the spreadsheet, I see that he did change it to Steenwijk. I imagine the change to Steenwijck would be something he would fully support if he were here.
I think also...just that he's not here...I truly miss him. I'll cut the provinces I made from the Ethengar map, and will place them in his Glantri topic...together with some extra text, like I did with some earlier location. along the Broken Lands..so if and when he's going to look, he'll see what's done.
Gecko wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:33 pm
On another matter (I'm not sure if this was something from Micky's maps that I never noticed which got copied over to yours or something you did): I noticed some Mines listed as "Steel" and "Bronze" mines. Those are not naturally occuring* alloys - ie they are man-made, not mined out of the ground. You can mine the components (Iron, Copper, Tin, etc.) but not the alloys.

(*=except for some uncommon cases of low grade arsenical-bronze - and even then that is usually a secondary product adjacent to a more profitable vein of copper or other minerals.)
Ohmy. :oops: ..
Image
That I did not notice this.. :shock: .I should have know with my expertise :o . I got this from Betti's map, and liked the logic of the idea :| , even had to translate them with google translate :? , and still had not seen the flaw :oops: .. Thanx for pointing this moment of being blond to me ;) . I'll restore this asap.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:03 pm

Ethengar Clan names (and male names)
Ok
As willing to continue the idea of Micky to place and NAME the various Clans on the map I have to create a heck of an amount of new clan names.
So first I had to derive how these clan names were created, on what social basis so to say.
Gaz12 Player book page23-24 The Head of the Clan is the Eldest Male, who gives his name to the clan. this means that even closely related clans will have different names, though their clan heads may be brothers. ........ Clan Names-----Pick a name from the list of name on page 31 for the head of the Clan. This name is also the name by which the clan is known. For example, the Clan Temur of the Yakkas. A ruling clan's name is the name of the Tribal clan.
This rule has also some other ramifications;
1........ A persons name is not found on one person only. And more examples of this name will be found all over Ethengar. And even (maybe even more if the name giver was heroic) in the same clan. As such it is possible several clans may exist bearing equal names. This may be a problem in the socio-economic sense, and also in the D&D game. As such I suggest an additional rule of designation; being the Tribe's name added to a person's identity....or have the name of a man changed when he obtains the title of Clan's head. It is thus allowed to take the same name, or change it to a name no clan already bears in the Khanates
2........the name of a clan is not set, and will change as soon as the oldest male dies to the next older male.see above. it is also possible the clan might be named of the most important member ever(living or dead). This would lock the clan's name until the clan socially disintegrates due death or relation exchanges between clans. something not common, but possible
3.........when all men perish in a clan, the clan dies, even when all women surviveIn a male chauvenistic and narcistic and aggression dominated culture like that of Ethengar, it is not possible for a women to become clan head, unless she would be a truly important hero and additional 2nd rule is implied. otherwise women will never be accepted as a hero(and this was the case with RL Mongols...even strong and important women would (and in many countries on the RL world still are!! :evil: )always be forced to become a man's wife or be expelled from the clan and banished from the lands, or else killed). These strong women would then still be forced to do something they might not like, go to another cpuntry, or go underground in secrecy.
4.........Naming of an individual thus will be more like Oktai from the Temujin Clan, than just Oktai. The clans name will be thus the second name (like in the western world the family name is used)The naming of an individual might thus even be more lengthy; Oktai Of the Temujin Clan of the Yugatais Tribe

To make this easier with the limited male name list( in Gaz 12 Player book page 31)I expanded this list with more real life mongolian names, and a -add-on to increase this yield even further.
I will place these names on the map as Clans. But a DM might easily exchange these if he or she so wishes with another name. He might also place more clans if desired. I advise however, to keep any additional clans very small, and clan ground location more on the barren lands(yellow grass hexes)
I also want to make sure the male chauvenistic and narcistic and aggression dominated culture like that of Ethengar, might make it for women much more difficult, yet should not refrain players or DM's from using women. Many real Life mongolian women refused to become a 'wife' of a hated, exchanged, enforced marriage, and mostly killed the man(or let it be killed by someone/something else, due manipulating situations by any means possible. This sort of gameplay would be very difficult, and as such a DM should reward a female PC doing so with 100-150% of the XP she would have gained for doing it herself.


Here is the extended list of Male Ethengar names where Players and DM's can base their character on.
Abaka or Abaqa
Abakan
Abushka
Agwang
Akbalik
Akbar
Akjin
Akov
Aksinya
Alani
Altan
altan
Anaktai
Arban
Arghun
Arik
Arika
Asudai
Babar
Badma
Baidu
Barak
Barka
Baru
Basang
Basl
Bat Erdene
Bataar
Batbayar
Batsaikhan
Batu
Batuhan
Batukhan
Batzorig
Bazar
Beg-tshe
Bektor
Berke
Bimba Dorji
Boga
bolad
Buka or Buqa
Cagdur
Chagatai or Chaghatai
Chagha’an
Chenghiz
Chibai
Chimei
Chingis
Chinua
Chuluun
Chuluunbold
Cudga
Damdin/Damrin
Danzin
Dasadas
Dashi/Rashi
Dawa
Degke
Dorji
Dulma/Dari
Duttai
Dzhambul
Eljigidey
Eljigin
Enebish(not this/that)
Erden
Erdeni
Esen or Essen
Ethenor
Gaidu
Gakadu
Gan
Ganbaatar
Gansukh
Gantulga
Ganzorig
Genghis
Ghazan
Goibban
Gokti
Gombo
Grokat
Hasi
Hatu
Hayagriva
Huaji
Hulagu
Iljigin,
Jagatai
Jamsrang
Jamuga or Jemuga
Jamyang
Jebe
Jochi or Juchi
Jullian
Kadan
Kahak
Kaidu
Kaikhatu
Kashin
Kassar
Kaunchi
Khabul
Khan (Yes this is also a name, although a very rare and often unaccepted one)
Khenbish or Khunbish
Knyuk
Kogatai
Koja
köke
Kublai
Kuyuk
Lhagba
Lubsang
Madutai
Mahākāla
Makbai
Mangghudai
Mangu
Manjusri
Medekhgui
Medu
Migmar
Mogwai
Mongke or Möngke
Mongolekhorniiugluu
Mongu
Monkh Erdene
Monkhbat
Morkatal
Muhuli
Muunokhoi
Naimanzuunnadintsetseg
Naranbaatar
Nargabai
Nayan
Nergüi
Nima
Noghai or Nugai
Noyon
Numughan
Och
Od
Odgerel
Ogodai
Ogtbish
Oktai
Orkajin
Ortu
Orus
Otgonbayar
Potor
Pürbü,
Qadan
Qara
Radna'a
Rinchin,
Rus
Sangjai
Sartaq (used also as an additional or new name for Ethengar merchants)
Shagdur
Subutai
Sukh
Sukhbataar
Taban
Taimoorkhan
Tara
Taramis
Tarkhan
Telek
Temujin
Temur or Temür
Terbish
Timicin
Timur
Tomorbaatar
Toqto'a or Toktai
Tuda
Tulabugha
Tuli
Turgen
Ulagan
Ulatai
Ulgatai
Vajrapani
Vasilas
Wachir or Ochir
Xanadu
Yagatu
Yamun
Yatak
Yestai
YesugaI
Yisü
Yul

To increase the yield of names even further the following gender based add-ons to the above mentioned names were used;
-dai, -ge/gei, -der -jab -sürüng for males
-jin, -tani, and -lun for females and other. (use the girl names list on page 31 of the Gaz12 Players book. There were way less female names, and often they did not even had one, being just daughter (add number in order of birth, or adoption) of (male name) of Clan X of Tribe Y.Gay men lost their identity and were renamed with a female name and became slaves. Do not forget women and gay men were treated often less than serfs, but did not know they could be otherwise, and although this is real life history of female and gay abuse, it is also an important part of mongolian history. it is up to the DM if he/she desires to maintain this awful fact in the game. It might trigger some interesting discussions on Female and Gay equality,

I might seem to some standard names this already happened, Temujin for example, but this is not the case. The female -jin part of the name is a bastardized form of -cin instead. There also did exist some male names which were also used by females (but never in the same clan), and it were these females who often assumed a fake male identity.

So Now I can continue to naming the clans....and there are a frigging lot of them...and the Map of Ethengar is ....laaaarge.. phew :?
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:29 pm

Ethengar Buildings
Although the gazetteer does not describe any buildings of Ethengar origin, they certainly displayed them in the Gazeteer on several location in the books. In real life Mongolians (on which the Ethengars were based by the Writers of the Gazetteer) did make some very interesting permanent structures, most of these can be found on the internet with ease. https://www.google.nl/search?q=old+Mong ... 21&dpr=1.1
Does Any of you have suggestion what the structures in the art of the Gazetteer are, where they are and their current use?


I found these in the book
Cover Gazetteer
Image
Grey stone fortress with at least two stone walls(rectangular shape)with mongolian style structures (wood with tiled roofs) within, and a higher more important wooden structure of mongolian design with tiled roofs within the inner stone walls
Somewhat similar in RL to this; https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/ ... allery.jpg or https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... e516_o.jpg or this; https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... zuu_01.jpg

dm book page 41 spirit world subject
Image
a female appearing from pool with a rim of large (16x30x20? inch) cut stones, within the typical structure of a yurt where others plays drums. this would imply, there are permanent pools (at least one) of this stone type located in Ethengar. as the subject implies this be connected to the spirit world what are these pools ; Gates? religious pools (aka temples?)
Somewhat similar to these pools; https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/d ... k=VDSrMHFn

DM book page 45 campaigning in the Ethengar Khanates subject
Image
a Hakomon (or mage) with a staff and dressed in Ethengar style garb, casts a lightning bolt in the sky over a horde nof Ethengar riders running away. The background displays Large eroded rocks and cliffs, but also a Mongolian Stile stone settlement with two domed roofs of stone and a garden? of simple (eroded) low stone walls, with a stone corner with some indentation/alcove within. Behind this structure an even larger structure or stone wall appears
Similar to this structure RL; https://leocastillotravelstheworld.file ... _15531.jpg

Players book page 8
Image
Two men of Ethengar descent and style speak...on the background is a wooden or stone frame with a door with a palm styled decoration, and a large metal ring in the middle at eye level. this might be a long stretch, however, the doorframe (just visible obove the man in lighter dress) suggests a permanent structure...a Yurt is foldable and never ever has such frames.
All the features can be recognized in this old mongolian temple door in some way; https://image.shutterstock.com/image-ph ... 597008.jpg
The ring would be used as a knocker

Player book page 30
Image
Three ethengars are talking underneath the roof of a wooden, stone tiled (typical Chinese and Mongolian grey round tiles to improve rain flowing away) curving away to be background and encompassing a somewhat smaller wooden atructure heavily decorated with a stone or metal plated heavily decorated roof. This would suggest a section of a temple if reflecting real life Mongolian style buildings.
Similar to this RL structure; http://mongoliatravel.guide/upload/2014 ... 66c4a3.jpg

As the Ethengar are suggested they are only nomadic travellers, this would imply all these structures would have an important significance otherwise they would not make these difficult permanent structures.
It does not imply these structures are much older than a few decades to a 200 or 300 years at best. (at least if reflecting real world architecture).
Can anybody of you help me with this?

24-01-2019 changed links into pictures for more clarity and ease
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Sturm » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:52 pm

I think temples should be permanent structures as the one above, as well as the main clanhold, and the winter and summer city of the Khan. Even if the population is mostly nomadic, they probably have several permanent structures in every camp in which they pass the season. Probably a big chunck of the population, mostly women, older and children, are nomadic only in the sense they travel twice a year from a winter camp to a summer one and viceversa, while the bands of warriors and men are much more nomadic for war, trade and cattle.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:06 pm

Hi Sturm
I already assumed temples also,(especially as the RL mongolian examples I found are mostly temples) however, the maps of Bargha and Chagon-nah (where the summer and winter camps are) do not display and permanent (rectangular or square) objects other than the reed palace mentioned on page 15 and visible in the map on page 17 of the DM book. this structure is erected at Chagon-Nah in summer and Xantha in Spring/Autumn, sored in Bargha in winter. and it is only for the Khan, not a temple.
Could it be possible they created these structures elsewhere to honor their many immortals? and have it permanently occupied to prevent raids by guards and clerics(and maybe a Hakomon or two)
yet if so where would these permanent temples be placed at best, and why were they not mentioned in the gazeteer,...it is as if the writer forgot to imply the religous aspect somewhat.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Sturm » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:53 pm

I think the writer is a bit over the top about nomadism. Mongols were originally nomadic but once they founded an empire, they settled up to a certain point, so I think it is fair to assume each settlement in Ethengar should be partially permanent or have some permanent structures, even if they do not appear in the map.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:54 pm

Sturm wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:52 pm
Probably a big chunck of the population, mostly women, older and children, are nomadic only in the sense they travel twice a year from a winter camp to a summer one and viceversa, while the bands of warriors and men are much more nomadic for war, trade and cattle.
I really like this idea :D ...it would enable women to gain some heroic chances in this male chauvenistic dominated society ;) ...in the sense they are now the defenders of the locations the men temporarily abandoned to herd the cattle herds or do battle. The women would have to defend against other clans, humanoids, still collecting food and water and beat monsters (including dragons)and predators away. The adventure then they do not have to seek, it will befall on them :twisted: And when the men return, their temporarily abandoned women and children are there still, with some extra experience, the men are unaware of :mrgreen:
Sturm wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:53 pm
I think the writer is a bit over the top about nomadism. Mongols were originally nomadic but once they founded an empire, they settled up to a certain point, so I think it is fair to assume each settlement in Ethengar should be partially permanent or have some permanent structures, even if they do not appear in the map.
I can only agree ;) . RL history indeed proved otherwise :geek: . Ok I'll place several temples hex symbols on the maps. :idea: And to remain consistent with the Canon maps I place these a few mies outside the main locations....since these people are habitual in travelling, such a short distance would be fully acceptable.

The question then remains; Would these temples have the whole firmanent as faith(not dedicated to a single or group of Immortals), enabling prayer to any Immortal within, or would each temple be favoured by one Immortal, being open to other non-opposing faiths, or would these be similar but dedicated only to the single Immortal without enabling access to other faiths.
My feeling is all of the Above, yet this would imply more temples would exist. And the mutual temples being close to the Xantha/Bargha, Chagon-Nah locations, the acceptable to other faiths along the main roads/important locations, and a few single dedicated temples elsewhere...Would this still feel right to the Ethengar Khanates or would it derail from that generic idea as per Gaz 12. I am somewhat confused in this... :?
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Sturm » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:03 pm

Gaz 12 says: "As for their religion, they worship hundreds of spirits and Immortals. Almost every religion under the sun can be found in the Khanates. They are a most tolerant people who do not place one Immortal above another" and "We place no one Immortal above all the others, for all are part of our way of life. No one true way exists." "we accept and glory in the existence of many Immortals, for the World Yurt isbig enough to accommodate them all."
Tubak (Ixion), Yamuga (Terra) and Cretia should have IMO their own temple, but probably in their the worship of like minded Immortals is permitted to. So a temple of Tubak probably has shrines dedicated to Valerias, Tarastia and others, and a temple of Yamuga has also shrines for Ordana, Ilsundal and so on. And probably there are also generic temples dedicated to all Immortals or to a Sphere, even Entropy.
Probably the tipical Ethengarian has one or two favorite personal Immortals, a clan Immortal and also pray to the appropriate Immortal depending on circumstances, probably also praying to Hel in cases of death, for example, as usually happened in politeistic cultures.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:27 pm

Ethengar NW
https://www.deviantart.com/6inchnails/a ... -769569263
Added Clan campements and their names, worked on the reason why the internal border is what it is given making it logical to its 8 mile hex maps given canon coarse,. There must always be a geological or biological reason for a border to follow a specific coarse in a region seemingly equal. As such I used Cliffs, Cliff/brokenlands, cliff/hills, Hills or rivers/creeks to make this logical. As water gives life to plants, were water is the grass will be better abnd greener, where the grass is greener, the animals prefer to herd, and if these animals belong to humans (or other) they will settle there preferably. Hence the camps mostly on favourable grasslands (i will add a few on the more baren lands, but always near greener pastures.
Sturm wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:03 pm
Gaz 12 says: "As for their religion, they worship hundreds of spirits and Immortals. Almost every religion under the sun can be found in the Khanates. They are a most tolerant people who do not place one Immortal above another" and "We place no one Immortal above all the others, for all are part of our way of life. No one true way exists." "we accept and glory in the existence of many Immortals, for the World Yurt isbig enough to accommodate them all."
Tubak (Ixion), Yamuga (Terra) and Cretia should have IMO their own temple, but probably in their the worship of like minded Immortals is permitted to. So a temple of Tubak probably has shrines dedicated to Valerias, Tarastia and others, and a temple of Yamuga has also shrines for Ordana, Ilsundal and so on. And probably there are also generic temples dedicated to all Immortals or to a Sphere, even Entropy.
Probably the tipical Ethengarian has one or two favorite personal Immortals, a clan Immortal and also pray to the appropriate Immortal depending on circumstances, probably also praying to Hel in cases of death, for example, as usually happened in politeistic cultures.
That qote from Gaz 12 was the reason for my confusement how the ethengars treat religion equally...
Your Opinion on Temples seems logical, plausible and would still fill the Canon bill...so I will follow this in some way.
The Clan Immortal idea also seems logical, and thus the dominant one in each clan, with the personal ones decided upon personality, alignment or goals, with major Immortals Like Tubak, Yamuga, Cretia, Hel, Night, Thanatos, Valerias, due their portfolio's depending indeed on circumstances.
I don't think a temple would have a lot of variable Shrines to all Immortals, But I think each Cleric is allowed in temples (aligned or neutral to its immortal--as opposed Immortals would rarely accept shrines of the others within their temples, even in multitheistic Ethengar) to make a temporary shrine to enable correct prayer. It is this cleric or one of Cretia (chaos) who removes these later, out of respect to all others..,, at least thus far my idea on yours. Thanx.
It feels the best to make several temples indeed, and having them spread all over Ethengar.
I will name them by the Immortal or Sphere like you suggested, named open thus being accessible to aligned others. If not so named it is closed to all other but that immortal, or immortals of that sphere only
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Sturm » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:43 am

Good idea, temporary shrines make sense for the Ethengarians indeed.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:06 am

Sturm wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:43 am
Good idea, temporary shrines make sense for the Ethengarians indeed.
Great Thanx

So permanent Temples dedicated to either a dominant Ethengar immortal with allowed shrine set up for aligned or neutral Immortals
And Permanent Temples dedicated to a Sphere with with allowed shrine set up for aligned Immortals

This would seem the best fitting.


My Research Continues
As 2300BC and 1000AC have some great differences.
Overlaying the 1000AC map on the 2300BC map in the same size with translucent hexes we get the following
https://sta.sh/02f73k6fj4jf
Image
The first and most important difference is the variation of the course of the Streel River.
My first thing of notice is the 1000AC Streel, which most northern part is almost linear north-south. Ok there is some erosion curvature, but this is minor.
As the 2300BC is Streel is more curving.
as the timeline maps show this curving ended after the 1700BC disaster, and before 1500BC...a 200 year window....more than enough to dig a new course (estimated digging time 40-70 years depending on circumstances)
This might suggest an attempt of primitive canalization, which through 2500 years eroded into a slight wavy pattern.
I Assume (maybe incorrectly ) the Ethengar did not do this(were they even able to, as this would need great planning and some expertise), so who might and for what reason?
One reason might have been the risk of flooding the Sea of Flowers Region...I was mapped as not very fertile in the 2300BC, yet it may have been planned to make it fertile, (and not Flooded).
Another might have been the 1700BC disaster and blocking of the river due the new Broken Lands...this might have been an attempt to stop the flow in fear of a flooded Ethengar. The Streel passed through the Broken Lands only after 500BC (see my Geomorphological history of the Broken Lands)
Studying the map; The 'Streel Canal' could have reasonably easily have been created, by digging the canal first, then dam the streel further up north to force the water in the canal, and then opening the crossing sections while damming the original sections.
Eitherway if natural or canalized, traces would still remain as in dry riverbeds, swampy regions, linear hills due the digging, and of course remains of the dams.
What do you think of this. Who and Why might have done this. If it was the ethengars, this ruling Khan must have been important.. with great engineering skills (or geat engineers at hand)
24-01-2019added picture direct for clarity and ease
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Sturm » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:26 am

I think in Chimpman's intention the change of course was due to the general earthquakes after the 1700 BC disaster, so probably is not necessary to assume some canalization, even if several people could have done it.
I think centaurs should have been poweful in the plains before the Ethengarians and the Blackmoorians and later also after the cataclysm and up to 1700 BC, when probably many were killed by humanoids. They should still have a relevant presence in the plains.
Also descendants of the Blackmoorians could have formed some "pariah" clans shunned by others for reasons no one remember anymore, but able to survive because they still have some "strange magic" i.e. Blackmoorian tech, and maybe they also control some ancient Blackmoorian structures.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:53 pm

Sturm. I have send Chimpman a PM. It might indeed be a geological change, yet a tract of 80 miles almoat straight north south (with only some eroding motion along the 8 mile hex shape) would seem to imply an artificial origin...
I ask this as a artificial source would mean heaps or rows of earth or even dikes existing nearby...and this would be visible on the map...As the Darokin know of dikes, would they have been able to help in that era...would that knowledge already be available? The dutch in RL did making canals-dumping the dugfree earth often as dykes or as fillup, the Egyptians did too but did not make dikes, they used the earth to create a large heap sometimes with a statue on top later. the romans did, but this was more artificial with stone...dwarves might have had the knowledge, -but these would have it dumped nearby (afgter checking for useful ores of course),

I have thus far succeeded to place the location of the Old Streel on the map. it is visible here southwest
https://www.deviantart.com/6inchnails/a ... -769569263...yet it needs total detailing...and that is determined by its origin, and changes...hence the question above


As to the Centaurs, Great Idea, I had already thought them to be located on three dominant locations (N against Heldann, SW somewhat east of the Broken Lands, and SE to E) with some sort of location bound structure (ie portal or cave or ruin or something else.I have to check the sources, but I seem to remember the Lycanthropic Chevall was spawned on infected Centaurs in the lands of Ethengar in 750BC or something. This could imply an old or abndoned Alphatian settlement nearby one of the above locations and Chevals living in peace together with the centaurs...or....they are living seperated and act more as horse protectors. if it would be the latter I would limit the locations to 1 cheval (nomadic-seasonal returning) and 2 centaur nomadic, but a group staying behind to defend their ancestral lands.

Somewhat similar I approach the "Yakmen" Pooka idea you gave...These I might link to a Hakomon Location with a Dream Realms gate attached (active, inactive, or closed) to it.

As to return to the Blackmoor Transport line pillars.. as being 'magical stone" (armoured concrete) they are more resistant to destruction, unless broken in which they are less resistant than stone. As the Line was a magical conduit, whwere the pillars were use to guide the system, would you assume pillars at last on coarse changed locations (up/down/left/right) and end in the stations? or would you stick to the 1 per mile or so?.... As I sugggested this system might stil have some use due the Great library (a former main station) and readjusted magic.. What would be your estimates on remaining pillars...the more there would have been, the more would remain, and have some (symbolic) significance or as orientation. What would be your estimates on the remaining stations
what would be your estimates on the other settlements of Blackmoor 3050BC which fit into these Ethengar maps. I already used to Ruin or ruined village to distinguish the locations in the NW corner of Ethengar, Yet I feel, there may be more or less information to these . (ie Blackmoor location names for example). As you might have seen I used one of these villages to create another Hakomon Location Namgyam Oyun, but could not add its name ...i feel at least some of these locations and names would remain ..even after such a long time. i could not name these, without asking you first.
Only one town from that Era I found somewhere In Threshold I believe to remember a name for; Cormaryl, located south on the edge of the Chagon-Nah depression, see here
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Sturm » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:38 am

Nuckalavee could also be occasionally present in the plains, seen probably by the Ethengarians as a very bad omen for which they will seek the help of centaurs and chevalls. Chevalls instead as guardian of horse may be seen as a very favourable creature, unless one misreat his horse, something anyway Ethengarian culture should frown upon very much.
I think the pillars of the Radiance line should be present only in course change locations, as you said. Stations were present probably every 10 to 20 miles around the line, corresponding to town/fortresses, but not much could be left of these locations now.
I have no names for town and villages, they probably could have a english sounding name (Blackmoorian) but now probably corrupted in something more Ethengarian sounding, or an elvish-centaur name also now probably corrupted in something sounding more Ethengarian.
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:17 pm

Thanx Sturm...I am entering the Information on the maps following your 3050BC map. I'll have to create the Names of the locations, and their vocal corruption.And inform all of you later.

As to the nucklavee...as far as I know these are swamp creatures, yet I understand why you place this idea, there are enough wet swampy spots, where these creatures might temporarily wander too... What would their origin be ?
I like the idea of Chevall/centaur being helpful in such a confrontation.
I also felt the Chevall would be fully on its place here
And as it is Lycanthropy enabling these creatures to exist; some important Ethengerians might have become infected and become one.....I am however not sure this is possible; as far as I know it is Centaurs infected with this Lycanthropy, turning into a chevall being able to become a horse....I have not found any information on humans becoming chevalls and only turning into horses or centaur shape...ie a permanent change.
Not that I am against it, yet I don't know of canon (or even fanon) information detailing this
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Sturm » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:53 pm

Origin and nature of nuckalavee are mysterious, they seems to be a sort of undead centaur, maybe connected to very dark fairies.
I do not think we know something from canon about the origin of the chevall either. They seems more related to fairies than werecreatures, but it could also exist a connection between fairies and werecreatures. The Ethengarian Spirits also could be a local type of fairies..
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Re: 1 Mile Hex Mapping

Post by Robin » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:51 pm

Sturm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:53 pm
Origin and nature of nuckalavee are mysterious, they seems to be a sort of undead centaur, maybe connected to very dark fairies.
I do not think we know something from canon about the origin of the chevall either. They seems more related to fairies than werecreatures, but it could also exist a connection between fairies and werecreatures. The Ethengarian Spirits also could be a local type of fairies..
There was some fanon information that the Chevall was A centaur infected Lycanthrope.. inn the research abot Lycanthropy I believe to remember.

As to the Nucklavee; are they Undead? I can't see they are in the Rule book any where. It is more a undead-loving monster . In the RC/and monster/creature books it is described as an evil amphibious relative of the Centaur.Image
I can remember an adventure I screened in the Euro Gencon 93, where they had to find Nucklavee Brainjuice as a major important component for something. That was my first time I heard of it...It has its historic component in RL Mythology; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuckelavee
The historic Nucklavee sems to be a merging of a Rider and horse into a monstrous centaur like creature...the Mystara version however does not have a horse head extra...This legend could have been spawned from meeting horseriders, like the Centaurs probably were in a time these were unknown/unheard off.
Later D&D editions made it an Undead I see, more resembling the fused dead horse and rider Image

As to the Centaurs; PC Weefolk;
Ethengar. There is an entire tribe of Centaurs serving the Golden Khan. They are seen by many Ethengars as the perfect union between man and horse.
So to see these are important in Ethengar, and I could use them in the map clearly as per canon.

As to the Spirits being a sort of Fairies, has a logical sensse. The Spirit Realm thus could be the Realm of Dreams wound around Limbo.. The pulling towards Mystara gave free Limoitic/Sphere of Death powers and Spirit realm/Dreamland powers...it would also limit yet again another source of Undead, as it would be the Spirits keeping Limbo from any contact to any other Plane (this last as per Canon by Bruce Heard.), yet enabling souls to reach it with ease...
Interesting train of thoughts you have created...thanx

I named the settlements in the Ethengar region in your 3050BC map. https://sta.sh/02cw1ueb06o9
Image
For the Blackmoor region I used English settlements, for Antalian Danish Settlements, for Dwarven I used translations from http://www.pandius.com/dwarf.gnome.xls
Hope you are content. ;)

The castle in the North I named Castle Dreadwood, and made it the location for an artwork of mine; Since I couldn't remember were I read about Castle Dreadwood (https://www.deviantart.com/6inchnails/a ... -663727724 or here; http://www.pandius.com/castle_dreadwood ... az5zl8.jpg) nor got any response by others; I decided to make use of this lack of knowledge and use this castle (which in itself already has a rectangular concrete feel) as the castle located on the map 3050BC by Sturm.
All in all this could be an excellent partially ruined and forgotten Castle. It had its significance those days, but since the forcefield bridges were dispelled by the 3000BC disaster or the maby centuries beyond, no acces was made to the castle. The nearby Magical Location I created has a much wider diameter higher up, and it encompasses the castle, making any airborne magic without any effect. Some visitors might have visited it, by ardous trial & Error, but most would have abandoned before reaching it. Some large natural fliers (Dragons) might have visited it, yet found no ways of access. The location was used long by a flock of Wyverns, but these have been exterminated due component hunters for the Great School of Magic. Early 1000AC, the castle found its interest within the Glantrian politics, but internal problems and the great war, has thus far withheld them from any investigation...This might be a case for a well experienced group of adventurers. Inside various this could be; Primarily Undead(at least one Lich is known to live in this region since the Nithian Era or before), Wyverns(some might still exist in the towers or on the roof), strange plants, seemingly magical constructs (Bots or even cyborgs, and incomprehensible no longer functioning technomagic. However, it could lead to important information.
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