Magic

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Magic

Postby Robin » Tue May 31, 2016 11:45 am

Taken from his topic http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15023
Gecko wrote:Just popping in for a quick thought provoking note: Given Baba Yaga's connection to earth/nature magic and to Witchcraft, Is there thus also a connection between Baba Yaga and the Glantrian Secret Craft of Witchcraft (which is mostly Belcadizian) and/or Elven nature magic (be it Erewan or Alfheim)?


By not intending to stray too far away from the 1 mile hex mapping topic I can mention the basics of my idea here.

Magic was always on the world, either by nature, the planet, the elemental planes, life and death, Immortals, even far before the FSS beagle landed and introduced an easier form of energy based magic.
In time the old forms were forgotten, rejected and replaced by the easier Radiance based magic, and sometimes supressed by outside forces (like the Carnivex magic is supressed by the Immortals as it rivaled theirs), or by culture/faith ("do not do this or you are wrong and will be punished")

However, as always, some traditions are never truly gone, or find their way back.
Like the Elves use the Way of the Book (radiance based) they also know the way of the Tree (Nature based).
As witches, wokani, wicca's on mystara are globally spread, I surmise they all use the same source of magic (either the planet, elements or nature, or a fusding of these). Some of their magic may be radiance based, but not all.
Elementalists, Dragon masters and Necromancers draw their magic from the elemental Planes, Dragon Souls, or life itself respectively.
In the North of Brun a group of Frostmages discovered a source of magic not connected to the radiance nor affected by the days of dread ..cold.
Druids, and fairies use nature magic, and even several monsters (Dragons, Beholders use their own power.

Immortal magic is originally also different, but the easier magic even corrupted the use of ancient forms here, as thus much immortal magic is radiance based on mystara. Many Immortals know that their magic is altered by themselves based on these easier doctrines, and that may be a reason for the conflict of Warth of the Immortals, when they learn the radiance can nullify them and threaten all magic...only a few immortals are from before the Radiance was introduced and as thus most use the form they learned to work with...aka te Radiance.

When the radiance finally explodes, it is said magic will dissapear, but this I think is a doom thought created by those "addicted"to this magic. As the radiance is so abundant in use, and has so much effect on existing magic, it surely would have great impact. But as we already see, that Immortal Artifacts still function, magic items are supressed, and even the Flying City of Serraine continues to fly, in the days of dread, it is logical to assume that the old forms of magic will also come back to life ...in time.
Magic from creatures will surely be affected as the final waves of the Radiance pas by, but to have a continuous effect, it must linger on, and even the radiance is not limitless in power, especially if its source is gone. Nature, Life, The Elements, The planet will find a way, all will go on, and their energy too.

As thus i surmise that the magic races will rapidly use magic again, and that the other races have to learn the old forms of magic again be it by nature, the planet, the elemental planes, life and death, Immortals, planar magic. or else. Not only would this enable a great difference of magic use (each source having its own use, guidelines, effects) but also create a greater than current variety of magicusers.
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Re: Magic

Postby Sturm » Tue May 31, 2016 12:45 pm

That's an interesting concept. Indeed the Flying islands of Ar too were not affected by the failing of magic..
Yet is said in canon that dragon and elves felt sick.. but maybe because the failing of Energy magic rebounded on all forms of magic.
This could have interesting consequences on the Day of Dread.

Where do you fit however the Technomagic used by Blackmoorians? Supposedly after the Great Rain of Fire this form of magic became poisonous, infecting users with the Wasting (a form of radioactive contamination..)
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Re: Magic

Postby Robin » Tue May 31, 2016 1:32 pm

Sturm wrote:That's an interesting concept. Indeed the Flying islands of Ar too were not affected by the failing of magic..
Yet is said in canon that dragon and elves felt sick.. but maybe because the failing of Energy magic rebounded on all forms of magic.
This could have interesting consequences on the Day of Dread.

Where do you fit however the Technomagic used by Blackmoorians? Supposedly after the Great Rain of Fire this form of magic became poisonous, infecting users with the Wasting (a form of radioactive contamination..)


I think it is as follows;
As the day of dread falls over, it disturbs the connection of magic and the specific cells within magical creatures designed to channel this energy.
Or...and this one i like the best.....The natural/original forms of magic still exist but are suppressed by a wave of negative antimagic, affecting both normal(radiance linked) and other forms of magic. As magical creatures literally thrive on minute amounts of magic, they bcome sick..a sort of food deprivation, but then for magic reliant creatures.
These negative waves of Antimagical energy are caused by using the positive energy within the Radiance reactor.
It is similar like matter and antimatter in the Star Trek vessels, special dilithium minerals (on mystara soul crystals of the Shadow Elves for example) channel these energies (in mystaras case fact magic and antimagic) as magic is used these crystals are slowly depleted and anti magic is released...with all of its repressing and nullifying effects.
When the effects pass over (and the energies of both magic and antimagic are balanced again according nature (probably absorbed by the many soul crystals the Megalith Mystara has within its body) and normal magic can be used again.

As for techomagic i see them using the Radiance in the most direct form, without any shielding or protection (as they do not know this as the Aliens on the Beagle did..but then from a technological view), and thereby absorbing or even (unwittingly) using antimagic, and thus suffering from radiance leakage...like in Star Trek often happened when the reactor leaks.

As the radiance is slowly depleted, more releases of antimagic, and thus days or even weeks of dread will exist. And as eager beaver mages are on power this will continue till the last drop, finally resulting in the destruction of the Radiance (and all connected sources). Following Canon, magic will cease to be (temporarily...a few decades or so), antimagic radiation locations will become common (especially in Glantri and around) as remnants of the radiance will explode far out in the region.

As you can see in many of my maps, magic circles and antimagic circles already do exist on Mystarta, these are direct remnants of the Great Rain of Fire Explosion(s) as all interlinked radiance reactors exploded globally (most were still in Blackmoor, but several were located elswhre on the world. Blackmoor tended to keep the technomagic to themselves, although through war, spies, and some trade it would have been spread anyway though sparsely. As every reactor blows uo, traces landing anywhere on mystara coukd become the source for these magic and antimagic locations. Eventualy even many these will deplete, or become(are) intered in the biological systems of the Megalith


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Re: Magic

Postby julius_cleaver » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:43 pm

Given the general logic of Mystara, I think it "makes sense" that dragons and elves felt "sick" or weakened during the Day of Dread, or even during the Great Rain of Fire. But then I have never been a big fan of the Day of Dread. Nor some of its implications.

Robin wrote:Magic was always on/in the world; either by nature, the planet, the elemental planes, life and death, Immortals, even far before the FSS beagle landed and introduced an easier form of energy based magic.


I agree…
But I would simply add here Robin, that IMC it is the World-Shield, and it’s alteration by the Immortals, that “gave rise to magic”. Though that magic can flow through the World-Shield from many different sources. Be they the five Spheres of Immortal Power, Other, or Outer Planes…including the Elemental Planes. IMC this would include the Four “Neighboring” Planes. On the “up” or positive side would be the Twilight Realm & the Celestial Plane. On the “down” or negative side would be the Plane of Shadow, and the Realm/Plane of Nightmares. Assuming Outer Beings and the like exist IMC, they would most likely “enter” through vortexes in the Plane of Nightmares.

I can’t remember if it is posited in the DA module series if the Beagle technology is simply science based, or technomantic; as Simone Neri reminded me, is the correct term for devices or “things” using both magic and technology on Mystara. The ultimate example being the Chamber of Spheres, which is a technomantic “nuclear” reactor. Built under Raphael’s guidance.

In any case…IMC the Beagle’s and Blackmoor’s tech is NOT magic based…it is science based; and therefore has nothing to do with magic.

Robin wrote:In time the old forms were forgotten, rejected, and replaced by the easier Radiance based magic; and sometimes suppressed by outside forces—like the Carnifex’s magic is suppressed by the Immortals as came to rival theirs, or by culture/faith ("do not do this or you are wrong and will be punished").


This is an interesting concept. The fact that Blackmoor first developed technomantic “science”/thaumatology.
I am not completely up on everything having to do with the Carnifex, but I believe the power of their magic came from some other force? Perhaps the Outer Beings? When the Carnifex were defeated, the Immortals also defeated or foiled the efforts of the beings providing the Carnifex with power. Or at the very least, prevented the Prime and wherever else the Carnifex were banished to, from “receiving” this magical power.

Robin wrote:As witches, Wokani, Wicca’s on Mystara dispersed globally, I surmise they all used the same source of magic—either the planet, elements or nature, or a fusing of these. Some of their magic may be radiance based, but not all.


This is exactly how every culture IMC initially used magic Robin. Though not a single culture used Radiance-based magic, as it didn’t exist until the time of Blackmoor; and isn’t nature/natural or World-Shield based. The first culture for which this changed was the Gi Mondals, upon finding the vein of Giamonds on the Southern Shore of The Cradle on Brun. There they founded a city…which eventually came to be known as Mondal Giamond. Until a fair-skinned strain of Neathar peoples, the Fiaer, immigrated there and renamed the city Fiaer Giamond…
Giamond’s can best be described as being like organic diamonds, though ever so slightly less hard. They are able to “capture” and harness magical energy; and through great ritual and ceremony were once able to create “spells” of incredible strength and power. Perhaps this is not unlike your Crystals? Something I would love to learn more about…or what you have in mind for them. I have a couple of ideas you might consider on this topic.

Robin wrote:Elementalists, Dragon masters and Necromancers draw their magic from the Elemental Planes, Dragon Souls, or life itself respectively.


I agree with all that, though have a slightly different take than Bruce or Frank on the whole Dragon Spheres thing.
ALSO: Necromancers may also draw on their power from the Plane of Shadows, or “Evil” Planes/Immortals…though not entropic. Entropy is not death…but the absence of all existence IMC.

Robin wrote:In the North of Brun a group of Frostmages discovered a source of magic not connected to the radiance nor affected by the days of dread...cold. Druids, and fairies use nature magic, and even several monsters—Dragons, Beholders “draw upon” their own power.


I modified your post above Robin. Instead of “use” I put “draw upon”, and I like this idea. IMC all natural magic, which can also be called Mana, emanates from the World-Shield, and is “natural” magic. You already mentioned where Dragons draw some of their power from, but I like the idea of Beholders, and creatures using anti-magic, as having that “originate” from “somewhere” else. There are also a few unique creatures IMC that is could also be true for. One such group is the Alkaline Dragons. They are not metal or gem/jewel based. Though they might share some “mineral” based aspects with Gemstone and Metallic Dragons. Initially I thought they would simply be Earth-Based Dragons, but as time has gone on I think that although they share the same substance as earth-based creatures for their physical form…they are indeed something more. Possible fitting into the milieu of the Dragon Spheres.
As far as Frostmages...I see cold as an inverse of heat. And as heat is energy, cold would be a lack thereof. Coldmages could either draw on their power form Death/Evil, Entropy, or perhaps even the Elemental Plane of Water. As cold is an inverse to heat, just at water is an inverse to fire.

Robin wrote:Immortal magic was also originally different, but the easier magic even corrupted the use of ancient forms here, and thus much Immortal magic is radiance based on Mystara. Many Immortals know their magic is altered by themselves based on these easier doctrines, and that may be a reason for the conflict of Wrath of the Immortals, when they learn the radiance can nullify them and threaten all magic...only a few Immortals are from before the Radiance was introduced and as thus most use the form they learned to work with...aka the Radiance.[/quote/

This isn’t even remotely the case IMC. As I stated above…all Radiance-based magic stemmed from the wreck of the Beagle. By this time, many…if not most…of the current crop of 2,000 Immortals—see the original Immortals set for Frank’s statement about this— were already in existence. Even Immortals that clearly gained their Immortality through its use—Raphael/Rad Amberville— or events tied to its use—Benekander— when providing their clerics with spells, these spells are divine in “nature”, and therefore have nothing to do with the Radiance. The only Radiance based spells IMC come from those learned by joining the Brotherhood of the Radiance. Even the technomantic spells and effects of Raphael’s device are different in nature than the Radiance; albeit very similar. IMC, Porphyriel will eventually attain Immortality, the first to do so using the Chamber of Sphere’s. Yet upon doing so, is already wary of the effects that the Chamber, and the Radiance has on the energy and magic of the world. As an Immortal, she is bound to obey Raphael’s edicts and orders. But as she grows in power, she wonders if he and Rad’s methods are ultimately destructive.

Robin wrote:When the radiance finally explodes, it is said magic will disappear, but this I think is a doom thought created by those "addicted “to this magic. As the radiance is so abundant in use, and has so much effect on existing magic, it surely would have great impact. But as we already see, that Immortal Artifacts still function, magic items are suppressed, and even the Flying City of Serraine continues to fly, in the days of dread, it is logical to assume that the old forms of magic will also come back to life ...in time.
Magic from creatures will surely be affected as the final waves of the Radiance pass by, but to have a continuous effect, it must linger on, and even the radiance is not limitless in power, especially if its source is gone. Nature, Life, The Elements, The planet will find a way, all will go on, and their energy too.


I agree with just about everything here, but will state; it isn’t the Radiance that will explode, but the engines of the Beagle. This will not rid the world of magic IMC, but simply be a localized nuclear event, which nearly destroys all of Glantri, and the surrounding territory.
The thing I never liked about the Day of Dread was the lack of forethought that went into its existence. Though I like 99.99% if Aaron Allston’s ideas…this one ultimately fell flat with me. Aaron, as far as I know, was a long time Role-Player, and science-fiction/fantasy fan. I am fairly certain that in 1st Edition AD&D is clearly states that some magical effects, once having taken place are PERMANENT…and by their very nature, at that point are no longer magical. So I am mystified as to how Aaron could come up with an idea like this, and not consider that. Does anyone has an exact page number and book for how BECMI deals with this? I could talk about longevity potions, but I suspect there would be a lot of rancor about that subject. So let’s take into consideration of something I would hope we could all agree on. Healing potions/spells.
Once they are ingested, applied, or divined; the wounds or diseases they have cured are gone…forever. They might leave scars or other effects, but for all practical purposes are permanent. Can you imagine trying to trying to fully suss out the full effects of saying the damage healing potions cured disappears during the Day of Dread. That would be ludicrous! This idea of people aging and dying from drinking longevity potions never sat well with me. Nor many other aspects of the Day of Dread. Serraine being one of them. But once a potion…any potion…IMC has been drunk, it is no longer magical, and is effects are permanent.
As state above, natural...or really all magic that isn’t Radiance based… IMC stems from the World-Shield. An “object” that was altered by most/all Heirarchs of the Four/Five Spheres. I doubt any reality/Prime Plane force would be capable of suppressing the effects of the World Shield to the degree that the Day of Dread suggests, without the Immortals having prior knowledge of some attempt to alter its powers. Even if my “Sixth Sphere” idea of Entropy as a separate force, or the Outer Beings were involved, given the established “logic” of the Mystara campaign world, I just can’t seem to swallow the idea that something that is so fundamental to the Mystara—Immortal relationship could be altered to that degree without them immediately being aware of it.
Despite stating all this…I am still open to ideas on the Day of Dread, and its existence. I just think there needs to be a lot more specific details on its full effects, and exactly how it is manifesting in the first place!

Robin wrote:As thus i surmise that the magic races will rapidly use magic again, and that the other races have to learn the old forms of magic again be it by nature, the planet, the elemental planes, life and death, Immortals, planar magic. or others. Not only would this enable a great difference of magic use (each source having its own use, guidelines, effects) but also create a greater than current variety of magic-users.


I am toying with an entirely different tangent to what happens over time with Mystara magic. As the Beagle’s engines exploding, and the Radiance disappearing IMC, this will not ultimately effect the nature of magic on Mystara. But I like the idea that it could somehow start the process of altering, or eradicating magic from the world over time. Along with the Chamber of Spheres.

Also, instead of difference of magic-use…I would say “diffusion”…but I totally dig this idea Robin. It makes for a lot of thought…

Sturm wrote:That's an interesting concept. Indeed the Flying islands of Ar too were not affected by the failing of magic… Yet is said in canon that dragon and elves felt sick…but maybe because the failing of Energy magic rebounded on all forms of magic. This could have interesting consequences on the Day of Dread.

However; where do you fit the Technomagic used by Blackmoorians? Supposedly after the Great Rain of Fire this form of magic became poisonous, infecting users with the Wasting (a form of radioactive contamination…)


Your point about the Floating Islands of Ar is a good one Sturm. But what do you mean the “rebounding on all forms of magic"? ALSO: Although I think current cultures may view Blackmoor’s advanced technology as something akin to magic, my understanding is that it was simply technology. Though as I stated above…the Blackmoorians certainly could have created “Technomantic” magic and devices. Zendrolion tells me this is the correct term for this. I think I did find a canon reference to this affect as well.

As far as it becoming poisonous or being “some form of radioactive contamination”…I think that that is exactly what it is…simply radioactive contamination. And any contemporary ideas on the subject being expressed by characters in Mystara is just their attempt to make sense of something they do not understand. But I don’t think there is really anything special about it. They were simply exposed to gamma or beta radiation, and died from radiation sickness.
Last edited by julius_cleaver on Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Magic

Postby julius_cleaver » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:44 pm

I typed this up before seeing your second post Robin. Going to look at that in a moment. But I like that you added some information on the Crystals idea!
Okay here is a response...

Robin wrote:I think it is as follows;
As the day of dread falls over, it disturbs the connection of magic and the specific cells within magical creatures designed to channel this energy.
Or...and this one i like the best.....The natural/original forms of magic still exist but are suppressed by a wave of negative anti-magic, affecting both normal, radiance linked, and other forms of magic. As magical creatures literally thrive on minute amounts of magic, they become sick…a sort of food deprivation, but then for magic reliant creatures.
These negative waves of anti-magical energy are caused by using the positive energy within the Radiance reactor.
It is similar like matter and anti-matter in the Star Trek vessels, special di-lithium minerals—on Mystara soul crystals of the Shadow Elves for example—channel these energies, in Mystara’s case fact magic and anti-magic, as magic is used these crystals are slowly depleted and anti-magic is released...with all of its repressing and nullifying effects.
When the effects pass over, and the energies of both magic and anti-magic are balanced again according to nature—probably absorbed by the many soul crystals the Megalith Mystara has within its body— normal magic can be used again.


Aha! Now it is becoming clear! Well this actually fits quite well with what I have implied before! Going to send you a message about this and see what you think.
I also really like the Soul Crystal idea, but would add: The Soul Crystals ABSORB, not channel this energy. And depending on the size, or quality of the crystal determines its ability or quantity of positive (fissile/fission) energy it can absorb. Neutralizing its radioactive properties and transforming them into “less harmful” anti-magic. Whose effects are not as long-term as the thousands of years it takes for radioactive material to dissipate. But of course the Soul Crystals are only so large or so perfect, so after a time they must be discarded, or else their anti-magic effects are unleashed upon those wearing them! This would be especially harmful to the Shadow Elves! This is why they continue to constantly mine and replace these crystals…so there energy remains trapped within them.
AND… Perchance, Beholders and other creatures are attracted to the waste-fields where these “full” soul crystals are discarded! But I would have to say, it would be a fun/neat/good idea to say the crystal poking their heads above the surface of Mystara are a different kind, or different in nature than those below ground.

This next bit almost doesn’t belong in this thread but…

This also ties in nicely to my Giamond thing, as they are a crystal/gem of sorts that channels mana magic/energy. I stated above that they were found by the “GI” Mondals. This is incorrect. The creatures are known as Mondals, which means “Stone People” in their language, but is a bit of a misnomer, as the Mondals are a forest folk...not Megaliths! This initially came from their ability to fashion stone. A feat no other race could do, as their Paleolithic period is earlier than any Human, Demi-Human, Anthropomorphic, Reptilian, or Humanoid species. Or course this is eventually forgotten, and after finding the Giamonds, they believe this is the true reason they took the name Mondal. They call the gems Giamonds after their name for the Immortal they revere. Gia…who is more commonly known as Djaea! Hence the Giamonds! But the Gemstones are the joint effort of Ordana and Djaea. The Mondals that stay to study the Giamonds are thence the Gi Mondals, and the city Mondal Giamond. Until around 12,000 BC; when a more advanced strain of Neathar, the Fiaer, find the city, and decide to cohabitate with the Mondals, a smattering of Elves that stayed after the GRoF, and a few other anthropomorphic species. IMC Fiaer Giamond, as it is now commonly known…much to the Mondals chagrin, is one of the oldest centers of culture and civilization on the planet. With a population of 312,000 inhabitants, it is also one of the most populous cities. Thyatis City at a pre-plague/famine population of 1,000,000 is still the largest.
The Giamond Diep, the cities great library built on the excavated Giamond shaft, has one of the finest collections on the planet. Rivaled only by the unknown Lighthouse in the Hollow World. The citizens of Fiaer Giamond are unaware of the Lighthouse’s existence. Of course, Mondal Giamond is much older than the Lighthouse! The more obscure and enlightening texts are found further down the shaft, and eventually the “floors” of the library give way to an elaborate labyrinth, obscuring the most divine, sacred, and revealing texts from commonplace eyes. The labyrinth is said to extend into the realms of other planes…
The library also has a very strict order of librarians and staff, which could almost be a new class. I have developed this, but not fully yet, and hope to put it in Threshold eventually.

Someone had stanles put up a thing called “Alternate History before 6000 BC” on Vaults. This is actually the unfinished version of a piece called “Timeline of the Archaic Epoch” which talks about events before 12,000 BC. Vaults author Travis Henry posits on Vaults that the Carnifex first “appeared” around 50,000 BC; and I have added that idea to my timeline, for it fits nicely.
I like to think both Elves and Carnifex did not evolve as other species did on Mystara, and they found a way there, or were created by an Immortal and placed there. This is both the case with Fieonds & Lexin! Mondals; however, evolved on the planet, and IMC are the first evolved species on the planet to gain sentience, and create a language. As soon as I finish the Timeline I will ask stanles to put it up on Vaults, and take the other piece down.

I don’t have gith and or reptilian species found in other campaign worlds IMC, though there is a connection with Greyhawk, stemming from the days of our original campaign. We made basic and 1st Ed AD&D character sheets for the same characters, and a gate/portal existed in Yeet connecting the two. We wanted to play all the published modules at the time, as there weren’t many, and this was our way of doing it. A volcano exists in Yeet…oddly resembling White Plume Mountain. I guess you can just sum this up to the minds of boys aged 10 to 15!

Robin I altered this post a little… I think this is what you meant, but the English was a little confusing.
Robin wrote:As for techomagic i see them using the Radiance in the ”most exposed” form, without any shielding or protection—as they do not know as the Aliens on the Beagle did…but then from a technological view, and therefore absorb or even (unwittingly) using anti-magic, and thus suffering from the radioactive effects of the radiance...like in Star Trek when the reactor often leaks.

As the radiance is slowly depleted, more releases of anti-magic, and thus days or even weeks of dread, will exist. And as eager beaver mages are on power this will continue till the last drop, finally resulting in the destruction of the Radiance, and all connected sources. Following Canon, magic will cease to be, temporarily...a few decades or so, anti-magic radiation locations will become common, especially in Glantri and the surrounding area, as remnants of the radiance will scatter far out across the region.

As you can see in many of my maps, magic circles and anti-magic circles already do exist on Mystara, these are direct remnants of the Great Rain of Fire Explosion(s), as all interlinked radiance reactors exploded globally, though most were in Blackmoor, yet several were located elsewhere on the planet. Blackmoor tended to keep the technomagic to themselves, although through war, spies, and some trade it would have been spread anyway though sparsely. As every reactor blows up, traces landing anywhere on Mystara could become the source for these magic and anti-magic locations. Eventually even many these will deplete, or become/are interned in the biological systems of the Megalith


The only differences I have here are that magic doesn’t disappear for a couple of decades, but the explosion causes a “breach” that very slowly drains magic from the world. Eventually true technology may overtake magic as the dominate force in the world.

Though reactors did not exist than in any other place in Blackmoor, IMC a similar event happens, with flying ships carrying nuclear ordnance, buildings with fail-safe rockets to launch them out of danger, and the like scatter over the face of Mystara. Creating a similar effect. One such location exists in The Great Waste, and is known as “The Withered Parish”. A play on words of “perish”, as all creatures wondering into this sphere of contaminated earth, slowly develop signs of a wasting disease no magic or spell seems to be able to cure. Magically active creatures suffer the most. The Withered Parish used to be larger, but in the exact fashion as Robin’s campaign, the radiation is dissipating and being absorbed by the planet’s mana/life-force. The “growth” of your Crystal locations, if I use them IMC—and am pretty sure I will, are the planet’s reaction of trying to fight off the effects of the radiation poisoning.

In this way, most the crystals the Shadow Elves are mining, are clear, and have not yet absorbed or been exposed to radiation. Raphael’s observance over time of the planet's reaction to the disaster let him suss out what was happening, and he thus guided his people to mine them as protection.

Crystals on the surface could have different colors or properties, based on the amount of radiation they absorbed. With red meaning they had absorbed their “limit”, and these stones only “cast”/emit anti-magic…or radiation. Depending on the length of time they have had to process the radioactive material. Some may still emit radiation! While others anti-magic. Still others could emit or have wild magically properties, based on their exposure. Those that wound up in areas with almost no radiation would indeed contain unique and powerful/unknown properties!
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Re: Magic

Postby Robin » Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:30 pm

Julius is back :o ..the large posts too :P
thanx for the compliments ;)

One of the main things I oten see is that Gamers reflect our non-living planet on Mystara which is a living planet. As thus much will be totally beyond what we assume as normal
As such I see also crystals, magic and of thourse these elements their reflection to the world
But as Mystara/Urt is a living creature, any negative source(including magic/antimagic/radiation would be effectively neutralized by the active biological systems. The Skyshield functions as a huge protection from missiles spell protecting the creature from huge impact damage (if chichilube would have hit Mystara it would cause great damage bu absoluteley not a global extinction, and the different cells of the creature, each with different biological functions, be it magic, sensory, dietary (i think the creature thrives on energy from sun, magic, making balancing these logical.)
There are many crystals and cells on /in this creature with a multitude of effects, and the few disasters that happened left their scars (impact that led to Ka discovering the older openings, GroF, 1700 BC, the great volcanoes (Davania for example, and the multitude of meteors that fell down, just to mention a few).
As such I think magic will never truly dissapear from the world as this is a byproduct of the creatures diet, at least as long as it not completely dead.

The giamonds you mention I do not know of, in canon i've never encountered these, notr anything that coukd stear to these..
Soul Crystals indeed absorb, you're right..that was a language mistake hickup ;)
Magic emanates from various cells of the creature, not the world shield, as this is a form of anti magic. (as such I assume this area is the creatures stomach where it digests the energies it captured, with the magma chambers /channels functioning as ways to relate these to the important cells the creature has.

As for the depletion of the Radiance, I have more..coming up later.
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Re: Magic

Postby julius_cleaver » Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:45 pm

Chichilube? What is this?

The Giamonds are not Cannon...but my Fannon. An idea I first came up with in '94, but really didn't understand how they should fit into Mystara's mythos until about 2008. I have been slightly tinkering with exactly how they fit in since then...but the main ideas haven't changed.

I think you are also right about the World-Shield actually being anti-magical in nature, but on the "skin"/surface of this barrier lie the "entrances"/vortexes/wormholes...whatever, that channel magic into the world.

If we were to use your "living planet" scenario. If the World-Shield were "Urt's" (Your name for Mystara? Or the living being instead of the dead planet?) stomache, digestive feature, the World-Shield would then "digest" this negative energy/material, absorbing back into the creatures "bloodstream"/lava shafts/core, and distributing throughout the "body" as nourishment. This nourishment "mana"fests itself as mana or magic. Or perhaps farting and burping it into the atmosphere/space. Hee hee :mrgreen:

Despite "Urt" being a magical being, this doesn't mean "he" or "it"...Urt doesn't sound feminine to me...can't be killed. It just might take something slow and pervasive; such as the "disease" of radiation or technology, or even possibly anti-magic; or something immense and destructive, such as a large asteroid...or if you are familiar with Farscape, perhaps a Budong? Or the burrowers. How do they fit into your mythos/campaign? Or do they?
It's about as gothic as you can get with anthropomorphic beavers.

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Re: Magic

Postby Robin » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:20 pm

julius_cleaver wrote:Chichilube? What is this?

That is (or better was) the meteor that destroyed the dinosaur era i our world. according to Canon, the meteor in Glantri was about 25% that size, yet it would have been a killer on our world , but not on Mystara due its skyshield and cellular structure.

The Giamonds are not Cannon...but my Fannon.
Ah..understand, interesting.

I think you are also right about the World-Shield actually being anti-magical in nature, but on the "skin"/surface of this barrier lie the "entrances"/vortexes/wormholes...whatever, that channel magic into the world.
There must indeed be sort of conduits like our skin has pores.

If we were to use your "living planet" scenario. If the World-Shield were "Urt's" (Your name for Mystara? Or the living being instead of the dead planet?) stomache, digestive feature, the World-Shield would then "digest" this negative energy/material, absorbing back into the creatures "bloodstream"/lava shafts/core, and distributing throughout the "body" as nourishment. This nourishment "mana"fests itself as mana or magic. Or perhaps farting and burping it into the atmosphere/space. Hee hee :mrgreen:
"My living planet?... :o eh no this is canon :mrgreen: ..read goldbox set about megalith, :lol: .. Urt is the name the old dwarves named it (or gave it, understood, or whatever), also canon. ;)

It is unknown actually if Mystara/Urt is dead or alive. As acccording Megalith normal behavior it should have casted all surface dwellers of its skin long ago, but it never did, There is a rumor (canon or fanon i do not know) that Thanatos tried to eradicate these creatures by slamming them into eachother (hence explaining the Hollow Moon another smaller mgalith), others say they are still alive and actually reproducing, (myoshima being the young Megalith). If it is ""killed"than it is still not completely dead, its cells have torn apart internally, creating themultitude of large cavs, but these could also be internal gas chambers, like we have above our appendix about a gallon of free space (unused) in our body.
Who knows, The druids or geomages probably.
According canon dragon magazine geomages are earthelementalist mages with a druid attitude, trying to understand, help, heal the planet, and sometimes use its powers for their own goals.


Despite "Urt" being a magical being, this doesn't mean "he" or "it"...Urt doesn't sound feminine to me...can't be killed. It just might take something slow and pervasive; such as the "disease" of radiation or technology, or even possibly anti-magic; or something immense and destructive, such as a large asteroid...or if you are familiar with Farscape, perhaps a Budong? Or the burrowers. How do they fit into your mythos/campaign? Or do they?

I really do not know whether they have the concept of male or female, maybe they are resembling polyps being neither/both, but needing another to reproduce. :ugeek:
The Burrowers would be another attempt by thanotos in killing the megalith...increasing the power of normal vermin (like our intestinal worms ..yech but than waaaay bigger and more dangerous)...why he does this?..killing the epithomet of life, would be a great boon to the power of death i think :geek:

As according to canon this near immortal/immortal creature is even hard for immortals to lkill..if even possible i do not know...I read an AD&D article/module(spelljammer???) about planets that have died, so they do die...often together. so either thanotos succeded on occasion in his slam method, or they seek echother to die (probably after shedding its srface).

Life on the megalith would be like the life in our intestines; every creature is about 7% of its weight populated by plants, and 4-5% by animals./funghi/etc....thus that could be roughly the same for the megalith...and if this grows, making the creature sick, like when we have more or an unbalaced species within us.....maybe then.....it would shed as according canon every 10.000 or so years if it is sick i could understand this action...at least until it is cured...

To learn more about Megalith read my compilation of canon and fanon sources in my Blog
http://breathofmystara.blogspot.nl/2013/04/the-megalith.html
http://breathofmystara.blogspot.nl/2013/04/the-megalith-part-2-lesson-by-mergrath.html
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Re: Magic

Postby julius_cleaver » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:35 pm

Robin wrote: That is (or better was) The meteor that destroyed the dinosaur era on our world. according to Canon, the meteor in Glantri was about 25% that size, yet it would have been a killer on our world , but not on Mystara due its skyshield and cellular structure.


Well I googled Chichilube...and instead got a lot of responses for chichi lube... and other sex toy stuff! :evil: :oops: :o :oops: :evil: :mrgreen:

But I also found some actual scientific talk about it. The meteor apparently wasn't named Chichilube, but the event is called the Chichilube impact. Probably gaining the name more from the area/region in Mexico that it fell...rather than the meteor itself.

Robin wrote: My living planet?... :o eh no this is canon :mrgreen: ..read goldbox set about megalith, :lol: .. Urt is the name the old dwarves named it (or gave it, understood, or whatever), also canon. ;)

Well now you are just making me look stuff up! :mrgreen: I will look for that later today! Thanks for the schooling/reminder of lost knowledge though Robin! Indeed you are doing some "Fletching" there...

Robin wrote: It is unknown actually if Mystara/Urt is dead or alive. As acccording Megalith normal behavior it should have casted all surface dwellers of its skin long ago, but it never did, There is a rumor (canon or fanon i do not know) that Thanatos tried to eradicate these creatures by slamming them into eachother (hence explaining the Hollow Moon another smaller mgalith), others say they are still alive and actually reproducing, (myoshima being the young Megalith). If it is ""killed"than it is still not completely dead, its cells have torn apart internally, creating themultitude of large cavs, but these could also be internal gas chambers, like we have above our appendix about a gallon of free space (unused) in our body. Who knows, The druids or geo-mages probably. According canon dragon magazine geo-mages are earth-elementalist mages with a druid-like attitude, trying to understand, help, heal the planet, and sometimes use its powers for their own goals.

Very Interesting! Know what Issue of Dragon?

Robin wrote: I really do not know whether they have the concept of male or female, maybe they are resembling polyps being neither/both, but needing another to reproduce. :ugeek: The Burrowers would be another attempt by Thanatos to kill the megalith...increasing the power of normal vermin (like our intestinal worms ..yech but than waaaay bigger and more dangerous)...why he does this?..killing the epitome of life, would be a great boon to the power of death i think :geek:


I agree...but as Mystara's Immortals, I believe...or IMC anyway...gain some of their power from their followers, or the number of them; it would seem counter-intuitive for Thanatos to destroy the entire planet...but I guess just "killing" it works under this assumption. OR...being a Heirarch, and perhaps attempting to reach the next "level"/stage of existence & perhaps join the ranks of the Old Ones, as perhaps all Heirarchs are questing to do...without really being sure how yet, by completely destroying Mystara, this would qualify as a deed worthy of "promotion"/acceptance to this next realm.

In some ways, this is very similar to Bruce's Calidar. The planet being a living being. ANd although Immortals/Gods on both world gain power through followers, Mystara's Immortals on NOT dependent on their existence through it/their followers worship.

Polyps? What about just androgenous or a-sexual in "nature"...ha ha
This is always how I viewed The Burrowers as well...as some kind of (intestinal...to use your vein of thought) planetary infection. But I think it states even the current "crop" of Immortals are unsure of their origins. (?)

Robin wrote: As according to canon this near immortal/immortal creature is even hard for immortals to kill..if even possible i do not know...I read an AD&D article/module(Spelljammer???) about planets that have died, so they do die...often together. so either Thanatos succeded on occasion in his slam method, or they seek echother to die (probably after shedding its surface).
Life on the megalith would be like the life in our intestines; every creature is about 7% of its weight populated by plants, and 4-5% by animals./funghi/etc....thus that could be roughly the same for the megalith...and if this grows, making the creature sick, like when we have more or an unbalaced species within us.....maybe then.....it would shed as according canon every 10.000 or so years if it is sick i could understand this action...at least until it is cured...


Not life in its intestines! But skin! At least on the surface. In Farscape even Budongs die. They are larger than even terrestrial planet-sized creatures that after dying are mined for certain/many things. But all the dangers of a decomposing body exist! The ejection of gases, uncertain structural stability, etc.

As far as your blog...I look at that all the time Robin! :mrgreen: But there is a lot there...and I certainly haven't read it all!!
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Re: Magic

Postby Robin » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:48 pm

julius_cleaver wrote:Well I googled Chichilube...and instead got a lot of responses for chichi lube... and other sex toy stuff! :evil: :oops: :o :oops: :evil: :mrgreen:
iieeuwwww. Image :o not my intention... but hey almost everything you type has an erotic alias on the internet..gross.. ;(

But I also found some actual scientific talk about it. The meteor apparently wasn't named Chichilube, but the event is called the Chichilube impact. Probably gaining the name more from the area/region in Mexico that it fell...rather than the meteor itself.
ah..ok..similar to me.

Well now you are just making me look stuff up! :mrgreen: I will look for that later today! Thanks for the schooling/reminder of lost knowledge though Robin! Indeed you are doing some "Fletching" there...
Lol have fun looking up. TSR 1017 - Set 5 Immortals Rules. DM's guide page 42-43.

Very Interesting! Know what Issue of Dragon?
Dragon 265 Article Earthshakers page 34-41 Author Jennifer Tittle Stack. And instead a special class, transpose this to the Earth Elementalists of Glantri, with a druid mentality.. ala..there you have it. The Best fit for Mystara...and the Megalith...as such I say, they may have learned this in Glantri, but unlike most secret crafts it can be used globally (like witchcraft, other Elementalists, and Necromancy..the others all derive power from the Radiance reactor somehow.

I agree...but as Mystara's Immortals, I believe...or IMC anyway...gain some of their power from their followers, or the number of them; it would seem counter-intuitive for Thanatos to destroy the entire planet...but I guess just "killing" it works under this assumption. OR...being a Heirarch, and perhaps attempting to reach the next "level"/stage of existence & perhaps join the ranks of the Old Ones, as perhaps all Heirarchs are questing to do...without really being sure how yet, by completely destroying Mystara, this would qualify as a deed worthy of "promotion"/acceptance to this next realm.

As there are Immortal adventures where they gain experience/power to grow, (also by defeating enemies---10.000 xp = 1pp) I always assumed that the foolowers were also needed, primarily to exist as immortal, but his actions AND the followers give it growth and visa versa.

This is always how I viewed The Burrowers as well...as some kind of (intestinal...to use your vein of thought) planetary infection. But I think it states even the current "crop" of Immortals are unsure of their origins. (?)

Canon said Thanatos created them to corrupt the Hollow World...fanon (logically ) added it would also affect the Outer World, Canon also made them slumber... as canon also said most are wormlike creatures probably created from purple worms and similar (lesser) vermin, but they had much greater power AND sentience. I think Thanatos gave these creatures somehow access to Carnivex magic, thus making them even more dangerous (rivallingly) to the immortals AND the world, and thus explaining their power.
Not life in it's intestines! But skin!
.. In anatomy, I "dived" into several animal and even human corpses, in and between the organs...and there is everywhere a literal jungle of plants, animals, funghi and other living there...very gross, but interesting..from a scientific view.

As far as your blog...I look at that all the time Robin! :mrgreen: But there is a lot there...and I certainly haven't read it all!!

Then enjoy, the new chapters are coming up soon.
And don't forget to read about the 1 mile hex maps..I can use all help I can get..
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Re: Magic

Postby Robin » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:18 pm

It seems there is not much known about the Radiance. As thus I delved deep into this, and I found some Canon numeral Information. (source Gaz2 Glantri and Kingdom of Magic)

Image

And then the Canon changes during Wrath of the Immortals. Not only did Ettiene dissapear as Rad user, but The war/immortals enforced great changes upon the Radiance, not only a great amount of power was used in the attacks on Alphatia, but afterwards some Old One restored this...most probably to cause the Mortals/Immortals to work with the natual sources of magic instead all relying upon one powerful source... as thus this Old One gave them what they wanted, but knowing the result I present here.
Image
There seems to be a continues grow of members of the brotherhood of the Radiance.According to this knowledge and great divination Magics and calculations I have divined that the following will happen on the approximately future dates with the following future data.
Image
The influx in new "radiance Students" in the last decades made the knowledge more difficult to keep secret, more willing students follow soon. Many pride atround with their awesome magic, others are forced to tell their source of magic (either by magic or trickery). I think the 2x 1 week of no magic does NOT follow each other. More logically it would fall in the middle of the year at the beginning of summer
Image
According to Canon from now on a 16+ Intelligence will be needed to study magic, or to advance further in levels. After a generation or two the number of Wizards decreases drastically in the world.
I think the few wizards (Witches, Elementalists, Necromancers, Druids) would start to study the few sources of magic NOT affected by the Radiance, and as thus whole new streams of magic very slowly become known
Magical beings decrease in number also (this includes Dragons, Elves, Fairy, etc.) or move away to other planes.
I Think though that they rapidly adapt to the Natural source of magic, but indeed many would perish or move away.
The number of Brethren would rise to about 220 and then slowly but steadily sink as the number of wizards go down.
Image
I think the 4x 1 week of no magic does NOT follow each other. More logically it would fall in the beginning of each season
According to Canon Magic will become very rare. Magical beings (Dragons, Elves, and Monsters with magical abilities) are almost extinct and are thought of as legends.
I think by now that although many have moved away, most will have adapted to the natural sources of magic...a bilogical effect as magic in a magical creature when dependant on it, will ALWAYS try to find a replacement for something it is deprived of. as there is such magic, these creatures will by now have adapted in using this magic. Many though will have indeed perished, and they have become much more rare than before.
According to Canon magical items are a once-in-a-lifetime find and there are no more than 2 Wizards per hundred mile radius. The Great School of Magic is run by charlatans; the Magocracy has collapsed; Glantri is ravaged by bandit, barbarian and humanoid raids, and is totally infiltrated by religious movements. Absolute chaos will reign.
Most magical items (except artifacts will have indeed lost their magic by the regular waves of Antimagic. However the number of mages will be much greater than only 2, as all witches, most elementalists (Earth-Matter/Water-Time, Fire-Energy, Air-Thought, Frost), necromancers and druids will have by now using most of their spells/magic from the natural sources. Religious movements may have entered, but as according Canon, even clerical magic is affected...but...and here it comes,...as this affects the effect of the Immortals upon their followers, and tus their direct influence, the immortals would by now also started to redirigate their magic to their own magic, as thus clerics now dirive their power directly from their immortal, as thus being much, much more forced to act upon the immorta;'s wishes and be sparse in using this magic.As thus I absolutely agree chaos will reign
Image
From this moment on it will take time. The days /weeks of dread are no more...antimagic locations however will be commonly known, or even wild magic locations. The blast of the Radiance generator, removed the unbalancing factor in the Prime Plane (especially or alone Mystara) of magic from the Sphere of Energy. Natural magic from variant sources will now again, (as before the Blackmoorians started to use alien technology and powers to draw magic from) be dominant in the World.
I think this period of time just before this could be what Odin prophecied...Ragnarok. Where Immortals and mortals alike strive to acquire the last bits of magic to survive...as thus many will falter and seize to be...only a few immortals might have survived this...as the Edda fortold( :lol: read this book it is very interesting :ugeek: and fun :mrgreen: )


Magic will be variant, no mage alike, as the sources are different. I presume that from now on, all kinds of mages will exist; Sorcerers who have a sort of battery of mana to cast spells from, other drawing power from sources like cauldron(witches) element or book, or even wands (like harry potter). I do agree that they need an intelligence of 15+ to be able to understand the principles of casting magic, as clerivcs from now on need a wisdom of 15+ to understand their immortal, they also would need to have a higher piety (see my blog on Pietyhttp://breathofmystara.blogspot.nl/2013/03/piety-character-piety-is-measured-by.html to be able to cast spells, as thus I would impose a 15 extra piety needed for each level of piety.
Magic items would also be variant, and no one alike...I think that each item would also have a downside for each effect other than minor Offence/Defence (+1 to +3 to THAC0, AC/AV or Saves) by slightly reducing another factor (ST/IN/WI/DX/CO/CH, Saves, AC/AV, speed, age, need of some sustanance[food/drink/magic,etc], or must be recharged by some method after a set time of use.
more options may be possible...An existing generating table with this balancing factor already added can be found in TSR 11612 AD&D2 Diablo!! the Awakening page38-48


The new Old One Odin was content... variation is nature, and only variation is growth by adaptation. One source of magic....however powerful,... was not the way of the future...it only caused a dependancy upon it and stagnation in all other fields.... the surviving immortals may by now have learned a vital lesson and maybe even some mortal might know...or surmise it.
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Re: Magic

Postby julius_cleaver » Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:46 am

Well GOD DAMMIT!! Just after I was telling Chimpman I never use the site to write responses anymore, I forget and started writing a long one...and now its friggin gone!!
Hey Ashtagon...any reason why this happens. It happened this time because I hit a color button. That is ridiculous. Refreshing or hitting the back button and all the other usual tricks didn't help either!

Well here is part of the post...I am too tired to put the entire thing back up now. But this happens FAR too often, and I think is something that maybe need to be addressed?

Robin...I will put more here later but...
I think you have the whole: "variation is nature, and only variation is growth by adaptation" thing slightly "backwards".
I think it should read: "nature is variation, and only through adaptation is growth in infinite variation possible!"
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Re: Magic

Postby Robin » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:08 am

julius_cleaver wrote:Well CENSORED Just after I was telling Chimpman I never use the site to write responses anymore, I forget and started writing a long one...and now its friggin gone!!
Hey Ashtagon...any reason why this happens. It happened this time because I hit a color button. That is ridiculous. Refreshing or hitting the back button and all the other usual tricks didn't help either!

Please refrain from using curses, not only does this possible offend some others, but it also looks cheap on the site.
I understand that it is very frustrating to see your writings dissapear before submitting them, It did happen to me once in a while too.
Hence I write everything first in Word or even Notepad, then cut/paste and some online editing with url/img/quote/smilies/color etc. That works fine..always. even if there is a failure it is just a question of cut/paste + edit again.
And your responses/comments are always welcome, but limit your zest a bit ;)

Robin...I will put more here later but...

You'r welcome
I think you have the whole: "variation is nature, and only variation is growth by adaptation" thing slightly "backwards".
I think it should read: "nature is variation, and only through adaption is growth in infinite variation possible!"

That is indeed more what I meant...English is not my native language. :oops:
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Brotherhood of the Radience

Postby Gecko » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:38 pm

Where do you get that Number of Brethren between 795 AC-1015 AC?

I beileve there's 6 to 8 Brethren in cannon, and it seems like there must be more members of the Brotherhood, plus some in the past now dead (ie like Danira Voshane see G:KoM).

From somewhere I got the following list of Brotherhood of Radience members:

Moonshadw
Darkforce
Nightfire
Estocada
Paleglow
Morningsun
Bluelight
Azureone

I belive Morningsun is Angus, Estocada is Fernando, and Moonshadow is apparently Harald? Not sure if Etienne is meant to be one of those or if he is known just as "Rad"

The Gaz says says that in AC1000 there is a 50 total drain with 6 brethren (apparently not counting Etienne as Rad):
Don Fernando de Casanegra
Lord Harald of Haaskinz
Lord Alasdair McAllister
Prince Brannart McGregor
Sir Angus McGregor
Prince Vanserie Vlaardoen

seems low, I would leave some room for other NPCs as the DM requires.

GKoM, set in AC1013 adds Maximilian Hiltier (I would guess probably either the "Bluelight" or "Azureone") and that Vanserie only joined shortly before his death (so could he be Moonshadow?)
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Re: Magic

Postby julius_cleaver » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:38 am

Yeah...I'd like to have a Kickstarter just for Bruce to be able to finish all this. Apparently he had "stocked" a lot of the Great School, as well as many other denizens of Glantri City and the Principalities!

I am pretty sure micky would think this would be pretty great too!
It's about as gothic as you can get with anthropomorphic beavers.

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Re: Brotherhood of the Radience

Postby Robin » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:47 pm

Gecko wrote:Where do you get that Number of Brethren between 795 AC-1015 AC?

I believe there's 6 to 8 Brethren in cannon, and it seems like there must be more members of the Brotherhood, plus some in the past now dead (ie like Danira Voshane see G:KoM).

From somewhere I got the following list of Brotherhood of Radience members:

Moonshadow
Darkforce
Nightfire
Estocada
Paleglow
Morningsun
Bluelight
Azureone

I believe Morningsun is Angus, Estocada is Fernando, and Moonshadow is apparently Harald? Not sure if Etienne is meant to be one of those or if he is known just as "Rad"

The Gaz says says that in AC1000 there is a 50 total drain with 6 brethren (apparently not counting Etienne as Rad):
Don Fernando de Casanegra
Lord Harald of Haaskinz
Lord Alasdair McAllister
Prince Brannart McGregor
Sir Angus McGregor
Prince Vanserie Vlaardoen

seems low, I would leave some room for other NPCs as the DM requires.

GKoM, set in AC1013 adds Maximilian Hiltier (I would guess probably either the "Bluelight" or "Azureone") and that Vanserie only joined shortly before his death (so could he be Moonshadow?)


I have expanded the initial table with two steps (#brethren and rad drained).
I have determined the drains from the amount of drains, its discovery-date, the amount of members and calculated this back and forth along the timeline.

The official (79)drained amounts and effects are;
100 rad 1 day no magic
500 rad 1 week no magic
1000 rad difficult to learn magic...another week is added
2000 rad magic is rare
5000 rad bang= Glantri similar to Broken Lands.

I only further increased the growrth of times of no magic from, 1 day, 1 week and 2 week to 4 weeks, and expanded the table to enccompass the effects of more members equally. This seemed logical.

It is said that at begin campaign only 50 rad is drained by 6 members, but days of no magic happened already before 1000AC, and thus a minimum of 100 rad must have been drained at 1000AC. (79)
795 AC discovered by Ettiene/Rad(according his history), he drained at 1 each year thus he is solely respionsible for the loss of 205 rad at 1000AC.
At 895 AC there already were days of no magic (according the text and other gazetteers), thus calculating from there on with the yearly use
Looking at the ages of the members, you can estimate their entering and thus influencing the Rad drain.. Until 995AC when the fifth member arrived the total rad use was still only 1 yearly, thus this extra member caused the group to double its drain rate, and added 5 rad from the pool.

To the number of members, the Gaz 2 is a bit contradictive. it says at (79) that only 6 brethren exist, but in the guild description 8 are listed, and in the names more can be delved from. Not counted at all is the newest member added in the storyline text.
As I write this, and see that several died before 1010,(Rad, Hippolyto, Vanserie) and more others were added (GKoM) the numbers around this day in my tables must be tweaked a bit...prior to 1010 there thus were 12 members known to us (Hippolyto died earlier) instead of 11, 2 more dissapeared died later(Rad and Vanserie), coming to 9 in 1010 AC, so vanserie may (must) indeed have been replaced (under the same alias probably). to keep the numbers up, thus 10.


1 Rad =vibrant, averoigne accent= Ettienne ambreville (68,21) Ettiene can automatically ident1fy any mortal user of the radiance.According to Wrath of the Immortals and Mark of Amber, Rad/Ettiene is literally gone...and has NOT returned as of yet (1016 according Almanacs etc.) this might depend on the actions of PC's in Mark of Amber, burt also on how Ettiene thinks the whole situation over...if....rejoined with his noncorporeal /and corporeal identity. At least he hasn't done anything,after his dissapearance.
2 nightfire= Prince Brannart McGregor (68+28/29)one of the oldest member
3 Lord Harald of Haaskinz(25,36)
4 estocada=belcadiz accent= don hippolito de belcadiz (pg 68+23)Died a few years before Kingdom of Magic (set at 1010AC??)
5 Don Fernando de casanegra (pg 24,36)
6 morningsun=child = Sir Angus McGregor(pg68,27)
7 Prince Vanserie Vlaardoen X! (36)died in WotI (GKoM 35) but may have been replaced by julia vlaardoen as after his death all his knowledge and books became open and available to her.
8 Lord Alaisdair McAllister (36,27)
9Lady Margaret of Hillsbury ( loyal to the order of radiance (26)
10 moonshadow= new, old man(74-78)
11 Fernando de Casanegra is also a member, but is not an old man, thus not moonshadow.(GKoM 78)
12 Maximilian Hiltier (GKoM 119 illustration) already able to 7th level radiance spell retain, and thus must have been a member long before 1010 AC, is also not an old man, thus not moonshadow.
13 Danira Voshane attempted immortality by use of the greatest Radiance spell, and thus must have been a member long before 1010 AC(the illustration reveals she's barely affected by it, but grasped by an ïmmortal??"hand.

The names you gave I have not found but could easily appounted to the members without a known alias.
Azureone (sounds belcadizian so maybe Fernando de Casanegra?/),
Bleulight (blue waterelementalist also??, McAllister?)
Paleglow (humble maybe Harald??)
Morningsun is a bright welcoming name, so maybe Hiltier??
Ettiene was indeed just known as Rad...this might however lead to disturbing/desiring thoughts by the mages as Rad is a known immortal; "are they actually religious followers now" and "he succeeded i might too"

Lady Carlotina of erewan has books on subject and feels radiance is too powerful to keep secret
Lady Carmina de Belcadiz seduced Hippolito, and thus night have more knowledge(or at least where to find it), and may look for it after his death.
Aendyr knows of Radiance not mastered yet (pg 22)
Lady Arbana Jerbat suspicious , spy(26)
Lady Sinaria Verlien knows Lord Rejladan Virayana has Radiance Knowledge(29)
Vanserie Vlaardoen described openly (GKoM 116) in his journal the existence of the Radiance, which came available to others after his death.
Lord Rejladan Virayana has tome describing Radiance(30)
Innocienty de malapietra knows Harald Haaskins is master in radiance and want to stay in good grace (26)
Duke Gerrid Rientha has Harald Hasskins receptable created and senses its importance...

great chance to learn
Dona Yolanda wife of Don Fernando de casanegra (24)
McGregor,McAllister,and Belcadiz direct Family members
Raknaar the Dragon at Vlaardoen house

one of the greatest source of willing and unwilling spreading could be Lady Carolotina of Erewan, who does not like it to be a secret, (especially to Alfheim), thus might more eager to spread this (still basic) books of knowledge leading to more research
The little manthing (Imp??) on the shoulder of the newest member knows-all(68)/ imps are chaotic very intelligent thus will always know the importance to spread this knowledge somehow (within its capabilities)
Outerworld visitors and other Immortals know from the archives of time(78)
And according to GKoM 31 sidebar Glantrian nobles use secret dealings, bribery, blackmail, charms and such to aquire knowledge, and thus also Knowledge about the Radiance.
Synn/dolores hilssbury of Fenswick knows/feels? there is a secret power, but hasn't located it yet.

According to Wrath of the Immortals, Alphatia (and its spies) is aware of the radiance, but knows to little yet, most alphatians are removed in 1009 AC, but the cork is from the bottle, many now know there is a secret power to grave for,..and thus will seek for it, and though difficult, many will find it, and with each find, making access easier as the knowledge become available to another, and thus easierr toobtain (secretive, enforced, or spread).
As Ettiene sees/feels/knows each use of the radiance, he was the only barrier to enter the order. with him removed as of Wrath of the Immortals and anything canon thereafter), the order will have no barrier to enter, other than the other members, who never know who the other is, other than that he/she is new....thus unable to block new entries. It even may wel be that the new members do NOT use their receptable to communicate with the others, so might even be more hidden from the other members, and as thus might not be regulated by the secrecy bounds.

All these factors lead to the slow but steadily further spreading of the Knowledge.
All this information led to the calculations leading to the tables given earlier above. All page numbers here between ( ) are from Gaz 2, or are from Great Kingdom of Magic (GKoM).

Interesting note
The accompanied adventure (Test of Darkness) speaks of Darkness in the underground... could that be an effect of the radiance (no light evn magic seems to function. and as this is only some tens of feet underground (probably within the old ruins of the former city Braejr, or even the old Blackmoorian city Redfen, thus the darkness effect could indeed be centered on the Radiance or coming from it.

The secret of a secret is that it can never be kept secret.
It will always spread...slowly or instantly, exponentially, or slumbering.
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Re: Magic

Postby Robin » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:03 pm

As such we come to the Immortal's effect upon Nithia.
They have removed hieroglyps from temples denoting the name and/or accomplishments of the Nithians.
The spread vermin to consume papyrus.
They covered ruins to keep them hidden.
they erected a magical power in the South West of Ylaruam that wipes away any memory of Nithia to passing people...


However, Nithia expanded much more than in Ylaruam, covered tombs will be found,..eventually, Restoration spells can be used to restore lost writings on walls, there may be even Temporal tricks to view the past. And it is only one artifact that causes the memory loss. It has no effect on 90% of the rest of the borders of Ylaruam. Several Immortals even would be discontent in remving Nithia from hisory, destroying their work on them....all this together assumes that Nithia would be known, but its secrets probably not, as these were limited to a few individuals only.The Nithians were destroyed for their 10th level spells (I don't know if this is canon or fanon), somewhat like the Carnivex...as if the Immortals want to keep mortals small. This limited mindset clearly was reason for the things they did, but actually to no effort, as the information (a secret) would be spread still.

Then we also have the Alphatians and their displacement in the Hollow World.
Alphatia is a magical race, a huge portion is magic user of some variety and level.
They are raised culturally/ socially to become mages.
Those who are not serve those who do.

The Hollow World has the spell of Prezervation casted upon the Hollow World.
It barrs the usage of many types of spells, and made others unknown to the populace
It also restricts spellcasters from casting magic if they are lower in intelligence than 16....

These two blocks of information contradict eachother. Alphatia lives upon magic.
When suddenly a large amount of spells would be impossible to cast, and new casters would need an intelligence of 16 to be able to cast spells at all, it would have a tremendous devastating effect upon their magic based culture. And then we do not mention the effects of spells/items they do know, but are unknown in the world beyond. Even under influence of the spell of preservation these spells will spread, and as thus permanentally alter this status-quo zoo of cultures and races. It only needs a few mages with fireballs(for example) devastating a primitive culture...to cause some of them surviving intending to learn the same, and spreading that further.

I can only agree with Thanatos and Nyx that this ludicruous idea will eventually collapse. The more you bring in, the less stays as it was(and intended to stay that way by the immortals)..and thus less is needed to corrupt the race...that in conjunction with the burrowers, would make the Hollow World a changing world ...eventually.
This could only be prevented if the Immortals return Alphatia to the outer World (or beyond on another planet for example).

Any action, revolution will continue to roll on, affecting the rest of the world, one by one. If Immortals can't understand this, maybe that is the lesson they need to learn before becoming Old Ones?


This is equally so in the Real World. The western world is now more negatively inclined towards the middle east, but the last 50 years nature changed (be it by pollution caused by all of us [air, water, ground], environmental changes like Global Warming, war, religion or commerce. The region was earlier one of the most fertile areas of the world, and especially the lasdt decades the desert, drought takes over more and more. And while the population continues to grow there is less area to life from. As such local cultures will class to get the last remains of what is (fertile ground, produce, water, comecrially interesting like oil,) but what most of us forget to see is the change we ALL brought forth. WE change the world, the nature and it already has an effect upon us we do not like, but can't stop or reverse. I've been there.. regions that were lush and green are now dead and deserts (and than i do not look upon war damages), major example The Aral Sea...interestingly it was a huge see in the 70ties, now it is a barren waste.
And all we do is produce, spoil further, disagree of what is going on, not taking responsibilities, but most and foreall...NOT WORKING TOGETHER FOR A SOLUTION!!!


Sorry I went a bit of topic. :oops: please do not react upon it and spoiling this topic. Just read and learn and then act.
The point is every action has a reaction :shock: ...always :o ....even if supressed. :|
The only thing possible is to go with that flow :? , or go down under :(
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Re: Brotherhood of the Radience

Postby hihama » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:25 pm

Robin wrote:
Gecko wrote:Where do you get that Number of Brethren between 795 AC-1015 AC?

I believe there's 6 to 8 Brethren in cannon, and it seems like there must be more members of the Brotherhood, plus some in the past now dead (ie like Danira Voshane see G:KoM).

From somewhere I got the following list of Brotherhood of Radience members:

Moonshadow
Darkforce
Nightfire
Estocada
Paleglow
Morningsun
Bluelight
Azureone

I believe Morningsun is Angus, Estocada is Fernando, and Moonshadow is apparently Harald? Not sure if Etienne is meant to be one of those or if he is known just as "Rad"

The Gaz says says that in AC1000 there is a 50 total drain with 6 brethren (apparently not counting Etienne as Rad):
Don Fernando de Casanegra
Lord Harald of Haaskinz
Lord Alasdair McAllister
Prince Brannart McGregor
Sir Angus McGregor
Prince Vanserie Vlaardoen

seems low, I would leave some room for other NPCs as the DM requires.

GKoM, set in AC1013 adds Maximilian Hiltier (I would guess probably either the "Bluelight" or "Azureone") and that Vanserie only joined shortly before his death (so could he be Moonshadow?)


I have expanded the initial table with two steps (#brethren and rad drained).
I have determined the drains from the amount of drains, its discovery-date, the amount of members and calculated this back and forth along the timeline.

The official (79)drained amounts and effects are;
100 rad 1 day no magic
500 rad 1 week no magic
1000 rad difficult to learn magic...another week is added
2000 rad magic is rare
5000 rad bang= Glantri similar to Broken Lands.

I only further increased the growrth of times of no magic from, 1 day, 1 week and 2 week to 4 weeks, and expanded the table to enccompass the effects of more members equally. This seemed logical.

It is said that at begin campaign only 50 rad is drained by 6 members, but days of no magic happened already before 1000AC, and thus a minimum of 100 rad must have been drained at 1000AC. (79)
795 AC discovered by Ettiene/Rad(according his history), he drained at 1 each year thus he is solely respionsible for the loss of 205 rad at 1000AC.
At 895 AC there already were days of no magic (according the text and other gazetteers), thus calculating from there on with the yearly use
Looking at the ages of the members, you can estimate their entering and thus influencing the Rad drain.. Until 995AC when the fifth member arrived the total rad use was still only 1 yearly, thus this extra member caused the group to double its drain rate, and added 5 rad from the pool.

To the number of members, the Gaz 2 is a bit contradictive. it says at (79) that only 6 brethren exist, but in the guild description 8 are listed, and in the names more can be delved from. Not counted at all is the newest member added in the storyline text.
As I write this, and see that several died before 1010,(Rad, Hippolyto, Vanserie) and more others were added (GKoM) the numbers around this day in my tables must be tweaked a bit...prior to 1010 there thus were 12 members known to us (Hippolyto died earlier) instead of 11, 2 more dissapeared died later(Rad and Vanserie), coming to 9 in 1010 AC, so vanserie may (must) indeed have been replaced (under the same alias probably). to keep the numbers up, thus 10.


1 Rad =vibrant, averoigne accent= Ettienne ambreville (68,21) Ettiene can automatically ident1fy any mortal user of the radiance.According to Wrath of the Immortals and Mark of Amber, Rad/Ettiene is literally gone...and has NOT returned as of yet (1016 according Almanacs etc.) this might depend on the actions of PC's in Mark of Amber, burt also on how Ettiene thinks the whole situation over...if....rejoined with his noncorporeal /and corporeal identity. At least he hasn't done anything,after his dissapearance.
2 nightfire= Prince Brannart McGregor (68+28/29)one of the oldest member
3 Lord Harald of Haaskinz(25,36)
4 estocada=belcadiz accent= don hippolito de belcadiz (pg 68+23)Died a few years before Kingdom of Magic (set at 1010AC??)
5 Don Fernando de casanegra (pg 24,36)
6 morningsun=child = Sir Angus McGregor(pg68,27)
7 Prince Vanserie Vlaardoen X! (36)died in WotI (GKoM 35) but may have been replaced by julia vlaardoen as after his death all his knowledge and books became open and available to her.
8 Lord Alaisdair McAllister (36,27)
9Lady Margaret of Hillsbury ( loyal to the order of radiance (26)
10 moonshadow= new, old man(74-78)
11 Fernando de Casanegra is also a member, but is not an old man, thus not moonshadow.(GKoM 78)
12 Maximilian Hiltier (GKoM 119 illustration) already able to 7th level radiance spell retain, and thus must have been a member long before 1010 AC, is also not an old man, thus not moonshadow.
13 Danira Voshane attempted immortality by use of the greatest Radiance spell, and thus must have been a member long before 1010 AC(the illustration reveals she's barely affected by it, but grasped by an ïmmortal??"hand.

The names you gave I have not found but could easily appounted to the members without a known alias.
Azureone (sounds belcadizian so maybe Fernando de Casanegra?/),
Bleulight (blue waterelementalist also??, McAllister?)
Paleglow (humble maybe Harald??)
Morningsun is a bright welcoming name, so maybe Hiltier??
Ettiene was indeed just known as Rad...this might however lead to disturbing/desiring thoughts by the mages as Rad is a known immortal; "are they actually religious followers now" and "he succeeded i might too"

Lady Carlotina of erewan has books on subject and feels radiance is too powerful to keep secret
Lady Carmina de Belcadiz seduced Hippolito, and thus night have more knowledge(or at least where to find it), and may look for it after his death.
Aendyr knows of Radiance not mastered yet (pg 22)
Lady Arbana Jerbat suspicious , spy(26)
Lady Sinaria Verlien knows Lord Rejladan Virayana has Radiance Knowledge(29)
Vanserie Vlaardoen described openly (GKoM 116) in his journal the existence of the Radiance, which came available to others after his death.
Lord Rejladan Virayana has tome describing Radiance(30)
Innocienty de malapietra knows Harald Haaskins is master in radiance and want to stay in good grace (26)
Duke Gerrid Rientha has Harald Hasskins receptable created and senses its importance...

great chance to learn
Dona Yolanda wife of Don Fernando de casanegra (24)
McGregor,McAllister,and Belcadiz direct Family members
Raknaar the Dragon at Vlaardoen house

one of the greatest source of willing and unwilling spreading could be Lady Carolotina of Erewan, who does not like it to be a secret, (especially to Alfheim), thus might more eager to spread this (still basic) books of knowledge leading to more research
The little manthing (Imp??) on the shoulder of the newest member knows-all(68)/ imps are chaotic very intelligent thus will always know the importance to spread this knowledge somehow (within its capabilities)
Outerworld visitors and other Immortals know from the archives of time(78)
And according to GKoM 31 sidebar Glantrian nobles use secret dealings, bribery, blackmail, charms and such to aquire knowledge, and thus also Knowledge about the Radiance.
Synn/dolores hilssbury of Fenswick knows/feels? there is a secret power, but hasn't located it yet.

According to Wrath of the Immortals, Alphatia (and its spies) is aware of the radiance, but knows to little yet, most alphatians are removed in 1009 AC, but the cork is from the bottle, many now know there is a secret power to grave for,..and thus will seek for it, and though difficult, many will find it, and with each find, making access easier as the knowledge become available to another, and thus easierr toobtain (secretive, enforced, or spread).
As Ettiene sees/feels/knows each use of the radiance, he was the only barrier to enter the order. with him removed as of Wrath of the Immortals and anything canon thereafter), the order will have no barrier to enter, other than the other members, who never know who the other is, other than that he/she is new....thus unable to block new entries. It even may wel be that the new members do NOT use their receptable to communicate with the others, so might even be more hidden from the other members, and as thus might not be regulated by the secrecy bounds.

All these factors lead to the slow but steadily further spreading of the Knowledge.
All this information led to the calculations leading to the tables given earlier above. All page numbers here between ( ) are from Gaz 2, or are from Great Kingdom of Magic (GKoM).

Interesting note
The accompanied adventure (Test of Darkness) speaks of Darkness in the underground... could that be an effect of the radiance (no light evn magic seems to function. and as this is only some tens of feet underground (probably within the old ruins of the former city Braejr, or even the old Blackmoorian city Redfen, thus the darkness effect could indeed be centered on the Radiance or coming from it.

The secret of a secret is that it can never be kept secret.
It will always spread...slowly or instantly, exponentially, or slumbering.


And then there are all the possible former members that you have to consider.
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Re: Brotherhood of the Radience

Postby Gecko » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:46 am

I don't think Nightfire is Brannart, Nightfire is too welcoming in the story to match Brannart. Darkforce perhaps?

Is/Was Hippolito de Belcadiz a Radience user?

Gaz3 wrote:"He feels an avid attraction to all that concerns the Radience. Once he gains control over the force, ..."


I guess that could mean he's a user, but I took it to mean that he's on the verge of joining the brotherhood.

in the entry for Fernando it says:
"He has begun to master the Secret of Radience, and is now a member of its Brotherhood. He will never reveal his craft, especially to Don Hippolito de Belcadiz, whom he considers a fraud."


They are both ELf-9's so have both just learned 5th level spellcasting.

Another thing I note, per the GAZ (BECMI) version of the radience, if the person is not at least a Baron, the 5th & 6th level radience spells have no effect, and since the elves never gain higher spellcasting, it does nothing for them if they are not titled! (this was rectified in G:KoM, though as a 2e source it doesn't matter since elven wizards can gain higher casting.).

I'd say Hippolito is not yet a user and thus Fernando is Estocada. Maybe even Hippolito learned that the Radience wouldn't help him unless he became titled - hence his desire to overthrow his Sister to get her title.

Vanserie is likely either Moonshadow or Nightfire, if he managed to join at all before his death. G:KoM makes it sound like he was on the verge but never joined or did so very shortly before his death, while the Gaz version could be read either way (just like with Hippolito, above)

As for "Azureone" "Azure" is english (& French) for a shade of blue or "Bluish", so either Azureone or Bluelight could work for Hiltier:
G:KoM wrote:"Since learning to cast retain power, ... [Hiltier] has become quite fond of the blue aura that surrounds him once he's stored a great deal of the mysterious power. In fact, as soon as he sees the glow start to dim, he hurries to his receptacle to absorb more energy."
It's perhaps a bit too "on the nose" but then he's not the only glantrian intriqued by blue spells (ie see Zaffer the Blue page 90-1 of G:KoM) so it's not neccessarily a giveaway.

I rather liked Harald as Moonshadow, but he's said to be a master of the Radience in the Gaz, so that doesn't work.
Paleglow could work for Harald, but it sounds almost feminine so I might keep that for Margaret or Danira (though I could also see the two blue one's & Nightfire as also possibly feminine, so who knows - Though we know Nightfire is a male voice). He could be the other Blue one (Azureone or Bluelight) since he's said to have a blue aura.

I didn't know about Margaret Hillsbury, I'd say she's probably either the other blue one or Paleglow or Nightfire (correction- Nightfire is a male voice). Likewise for Danira (I don't know why I was previously under the impression that Danira was in not-recent past), and Alaisdair would probably just get what's left over (none of them are Moonshadow though).

Thus We are actually a name short, since between Harald, Margaret, Danira, & Alaisdair, none of them are Moonshadow and the one's we have left are 3- Paleglow, Nightfire, & whichever blue one is not used for Maximilian. Further, Nightfire is possibly Vanserie if he's not moonshadow (or if he joined at all, see above). Either Alasdair is a name not on the list or he is Nightfire (and thus Vanserie either never joined or he is Moonshadow). I'd be tempted to say that either Margaret or Danira is an unnknown name left off the list as that list perhaps came from a time after one or the other died/dissappeared (wish I could remember where I got that list from).

so that would make list at the start of AC1000:
1. Rad = Prince Etienne d'Ambreville (Immortal/M35)
2. Darkforce = Prince Brannart McGregor (M33)
3or4. ? = Danira Voshane (M17 or higher) (if not already dissappeared)
3or4. ? = Archduke Harald of Haaskinz (M25)
the next three could be in anyorder
#. Nightfire or a newname = Count Alaisdair McAllister (M13)
#. ? = Duchess Margaret of Hillsbury (M14)
#. Azureone or Bluelight = Maximilian Hiltier (M14 or higher)
the next two could be in anyorder
#. Estocada = Marquis Fernando de Casanegra (E9)
#. Morningsun= Angus McGregor (M12)
#. Moonshadow= unknown, if Moonshadow is not Vanserie
future:
#. Nightfire (if he joined after AC1000) or Moonshadow (if he joined in AC1000)= Prince Vanserie Vlaardoen (M28)- IF HE JOINED AT ALL, see G:KoM p.116-7)

Rad, Brannart, & perhaps Danira and/or Harald are longterm users, the others are all relatively newer. For the really new one's Morningsun joined with a year, but that could be before or after Estocada, with Moonshadow as the newest (or future, depending on which equinox the story is set). If Moonshadow is not Vanserie, then it's an unnamed character.

edit: Nightfire is a male voice, so that changed a few things.
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Re: Brotherhood of the Radience

Postby Gecko » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:53 am

Another though just occured to me after posting- Maximilian wouldn't of known Retain Power back when he 1st joined, so his fascination with his blue glow might of only came about after he got a BoR name, so he could actually be any of the unassigned name's (except Moonshadow) or the unknown name. So my guess is that he could be Nightfire or the unknown one. On the other hand maybe he was already intriqued by blue things, and he still chose a blue themed name and his later learning of Retain Power only fed his obsession, who knows....
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Re: Magic

Postby Robin » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:10 pm

hrmm. I've overseen Darkforce in your list, and I must agree it indeed fits McGregor better.
I absolutely agree that Hippolyto would want to overthrow Carnelia and why. As Gaz 3 he was on the verge , and in GKoM dead,. in the time in between I absolutely think he was a brethren.

As of the 5th and 6th levels spells I think that not only supercedes the Radiance the race limitation (and thus adding more spell levels from then on as per added level rules.), but in fact enables lower levels to cast higher level spells...Ho I do not know, but as reading through the list, there are several of such low level, that they normally would not be able to use radiance spells at all. or only the lower ones at best.
Harald is one of the older users of the Radiance, and as moonshadow first enters the Radiance as an oldman with imp in gaz3, I don't think it would be him.As thus I assume Vanserie would fit best.

As the male voice..That makes it a bit different indeed.

Great help here btw ;P
@ hihama ;
And then there are all the possible former members that you have to consider.

Of course it could be possible for other now long dead members, but they haven't affected the radiance much, and much later than assumed. Rad did all first to learn to understand it. McGregor discovered it at his own accord and is possible the first mortal to discover it, and the first to be affected by it. as thus giving Ettiene a whole new opinion on the Radiance he himself could never have discovered due his immortal immunities.
Question remains however; why and how does Rad feel/know other users using the radiance. This principle seems illogical to me, even if he was immortalized by it.
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Re: Magic

Postby hihama » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:05 pm

Robin wrote:@ hihama ;
And then there are all the possible former members that you have to consider.

Of course it could be possible for other now long dead members, but they haven't affected the radiance much, and much later than assumed. Rad did all first to learn to understand it. McGregor discovered it at his own accord and is possible the first mortal to discover it, and the first to be affected by it. as thus giving Ettiene a whole new opinion on the Radiance he himself could never have discovered due his immortal immunities.
Question remains however; why and how does Rad feel/know other users using the radiance. This principle seems illogical to me, even if he was immortalized by it.


When I wrote my versions of the histories of some great houses of Glantri "some" years ago, I made some princes to know radiance or at least Charan Erewan. Can't remember anymore was there somebody else.
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Re: Magic

Postby Robin » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:08 pm

Erewan is ..I feel...absolutely capable of knowing some of the Radiance, and as such a member, could wel be there or come in the near future, or even have been.
But as nature elves, it could also be that the Erewan were the first mortals to understand the differences and thus the dangers of the Radiance as source of magic...
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Re: Magic

Postby hihama » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:18 pm

Robin wrote:Erewan is ..I feel...absolutely capable of knowing some of the Radiance, and as such a member, could wel be there or come in the near future, or even have been.
But as nature elves, it could also be that the Erewan were the first mortals to understand the differences and thus the dangers of the Radiance as source of magic...


Not Charan Erewan. Quote from my History of House Ellerovyn:
"In AC 902, soon after becoming Chamberlain, Charan discovered the Radiance. He began to study this strange phenomenon and become obsessed with it. He soon found the dangers of these studies, when in very short time his feet developed a withering disease and he lost his ability to walk normally. He continued to tend his duties as Chamberlain, but from then on, he always moved on horseback outdoors or with levitate spells indoors.

Prince Charan continued to be a Chamberlain until the crisis with Grandmaster Johann von Drachenfels in AC 957. When it was decided that the Council should remove Prinz Johann from the charge, Charan immediately announced his candidacy. Charan had long realised that if he wanted to continue his studies with the Radiance, he had to get rid of his duty as Chamberlain, and now he realised that as a Grand Master, he would have all the facilities of the Great School at his disposal. Charan was chosen to be Grand Master because there was no better alternative.

As a Grand Master, Charan mostly concentrated on studying the Radiance. He left administrative and teaching duties mostly to his aides. Students only saw him at the beginning and the end of the terms. During the years, other personnel of the Great School saw his health gradually weakening, as his strange disease slowly spread. At last in AC 973, Charan delved too deep into the Radiance and he was transformed into a zombie-like creature. Before he could flee from the Great School, the other mages - who didn't recognise Charan anymore - managed to destroy the unknown undead. At the age of 431, Prince Charan Erewan had disappeared, like his predecessor, Johann von Drachenfels."
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Re: Magic

Postby julius_cleaver » Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:03 am

Hey hihame and Robin...Would you guys just quote the parts that you are responding to in a post? This is a great topic...but since I lasted posted in this thread I was trying to "catch up", and with all the "requoting" going on...I was having a hard time keeping up with what was being discussed. And I think you both made a lot of great points on the subject!

Robin...have you read Accounts of an Apprentice? Because I like what you said here:
Robin wrote:The secret of a secret is that it can never be kept secret.
It will always spread...slowly or instantly, exponentially, or slumbering.


It pretty much explains what Palzac encounters...or how his initial recognition, despite him really knowing nothing other than a word, sets off a "firestorm" to find out who he is, or what he knows.

What if after seeing the price of power you no longer wanted power? Was it possible to step back from the intricately woven stage and withdraw unnoticed? Initially wanting only to view what lurked beneath the ocean of knowledge without drownding below, Palzac had waded too deep to turn back without first learning to swim these dangerous waters. Yet the more Palzac gleaned from whispered half-truths, it was the entire ocean they were trying to protect, and he had already seen the shore. He knew of its existence, and that alone was danger for those wishing to protect the knowledge leading to Glantri's greatest power. One said to have the power of opening doors toward Immortality...if such a thing were even possible. Palzac had not believed so, until witnessing the fervor of those striving to protect the path.


And slightly editing your post Robin...
Robin wrote:"The secret of secrets is they can never be kept secret.
A secret will always spread...whether slow or instantaneous, exponentially, or unconsciously slumbering through the populace as unfounded rumor.
Yet it isn't only men who keep secrets, all races are guilty of pride. Telling others in confidence the greater mysteries they have unearthed. Nearly everyone wants knowledge or power in Glantri...and through these, recognition. OR is it the other way round?"


This would be a great quote, possibly modified a little, to use in a future "episode" of Accounts. Perhaps it should be uttered by a PC or NPC of your creation? Afterall, the root/essence of its nature is your creation. Unless you took this from somewhere else?

Anyway...got any characters in mind? Though my story follows my own timeline, which does not follow WOTI nor take its background from the Dragonlord Trilogy, I still like the idea of community members developing PCs and NPCs that we use in our own campaigns/timelines.

I think Talyn is a good example! I really like the idea of each of our campaigns being a different "thread" or reality unfolding. Different actions lead to different events, stemming form a similar point, or similar points, along the thread/yarn of time/history! Whatever happens to Talyn in the Fall & Rise of the Canolbarth DID happen to her! Possibly as an Immortal, she becomes aware of all of these strains of reality she lived. Thus becoming aware of all of Mystara's realities! What do you think?

For Example:
So you have some PCs? Show up at a convention, and play in Zendrolion or micky's campaigns...as an example..."Suddenly the world is different. Apparently the door you passed through crossed paths with another strain of possibility. Mystara is still Mystara, your characters still sense they are on planetside. But things have changed...
How? Well you are just going to have to find out!"

OR perhaps your PC/NPC already exists in their campaign...but has different agendas than they do in yours. This takes into account two timelines merging, or two of the same character(s) existing in the same reality. It is possible they could even wind up as adversaries. Though doubtful true enemies. That would mean changing the entire character of the characters...ha ha. :mrgreen:
Then there wouldn't be a point in adding them in the first place! This is perhaps a topic for a Skype or person to person conversation, as too much explaining might be involved! Or does it make sense as I have written it?
It's about as gothic as you can get with anthropomorphic beavers.

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