Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

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Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Havard » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:30 am

Image

I thought I was done with this, but then yet another idea came to me.

Thanks to Cthulhudrew and Zendrolion for some underway consultation.

Opinions? Anything else that can be added to this map?

Question: Zendrolion mentioned the gate from Rugalov Keep from Dark Knight of Karameikos. I have not yet added this one. Anyone know what to make of it?

A few more things: As with the maps of the elemental planes (links below), this one uses the BECMI cosmology. I have added elements from PC1 (Dreamlands) and VotPA (Limbo) as well as locations from various modules and Gazetteers. I am making the assumption that the Spirit World of the Ethengars is another name for the Ethereal Plane, though it could also refer to all of the Inner Planes or even all the planes. I am however making the Spirits themselves natives to the Ethereal.

Some other locations:
  • The Shelter: This is the place visited by the Shelter Scroll.
  • House of Zebulon: A place of shelter mentioned in X5?
  • City of Pandius: from WotI
  • City of Brass: Gaz2 (see also my Plane of Fire map)
  • The Maze: The place you are sent to by the Maze spell. Zendrolion and I had some interesting discussions about this idea.
  • City of the Dead: Mentioned in VotPA. There are actually multiple Cities of the Dead, though one was visited in the series.
  • World Mountain Gate: Ethengar Gaz
  • Yak Brothers Camp: Ethengar Gaz
  • The Eternal Stairway: CM8 reference. Should be renamed The Eternal Stair in next update.
  • Skarda's Mirror: Described in X12






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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Yaztromo » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:05 pm

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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Big Mac » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:18 pm

Havard wrote:Opinions? Anything else that can be added to this map?
This is AM-A-ZING! :o :shock: :| :) :D :mrgreen: :cool:

Are you going to do maps for The Dreamlands and Limbo that are similar to your Elemental Plane maps?

I think that maybe Threshold Magazine could do a feature on Frank Mentzer's BECMI cosmology, and include all this stuff you are doing. :)

Talking of Frank, ave you showed this to him?
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Robin » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:09 pm

Very nice map Havard :lol:
Though I see it more Threedimensional; A spheroid Prime Plane with the four spheroid elemental planes arranged like the 4 points of a D4 around it
and then Limbo twirled in between (as it is a moebious ring Plane ), thus enabling it to touch/affect alle 5 prime Planes, continously.
And then all together continuously moving with the seasons

Image
I personally think (as you can read here) that Limbo and the Spirit Realm are both the same.viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15023&p=178857&hilit=Limbo#p178857
This would mean that World Mountain would touch Limbo. somewhere, and not the ethereal

Dreamlands I believe to remember (Immortals Guide Wrath) was another Dimension, and not even a Plane and as such should not be mapped within this map. It has its dimensional contacts all over the Inner Planes though, as thus I would place Dreamland Gates on each to reflect that.

To the other Locations; The Maze is actually an Outer Plane, not an Inner Planar Location.
Just as the Bag of Holding, Shelter and House of Zebulon locations many of these exist only if the corresponding magi item exists.
The spell Rope Trick (AD&D2) however I would indeed place within the Ethereal Plane when created.
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Chimpman » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:19 pm

Havard wrote:Question: Zendrolion mentioned the gate from Rugalov Keep from Dark Knight of Karameikos. I have not yet added this one. Anyone know what to make of it?
Would this be the gate to the Plane of Air? Or is it something different. I remember from when I did research on Yuri Molotov, that there was a gate to the Plane of Air in the old Aerodrome (stronghold of the Order of the White Drakes). Rugalov Keep is built over its ruins.
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Yaztromo » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:20 pm

Big Mac wrote: I think that maybe Threshold Magazine could do a feature on Frank Mentzer's BECMI cosmology, and include all this stuff you are doing. :)
agree
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Havard » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:41 pm

Big Mac wrote:This is AM-A-ZING! :o :shock: :| :) :D :mrgreen: :cool:
Thankyou! :)
Are you going to do maps for The Dreamlands and Limbo that are similar to your Elemental Plane maps?
I might. I think the Dreamlands would be much more interesting to make maps for than Limbo. I don't know how much we have to work with for Limbo, while I have quite a few ideas for what the Dreamlands might look like. Of course it might be that both of these are highly changing in form.
I think that maybe Threshold Magazine could do a feature on Frank Mentzer's BECMI cosmology, and include all this stuff you are doing. :)
Good idea. Of course, my work uses the BECMI cosmology as a starting point, but I have also made fairly dramatic additions from later Mystara sources, especially the Dreamlands and Limbo.
Talking of Frank, ave you showed this to him?
No.. I think Frank is probably on his way to GenCon right now. Maybe when he gets back I will ask what he thinks :)

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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Havard » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:02 pm

Robin wrote:Very nice map Havard :lol:
Thank you Robin! :)
Though I see it more Threedimensional; A spheroid Prime Plane with the four spheroid elemental planes arranged like the 4 points of a D4 around it
and then Limbo twirled in between (as it is a moebious ring Plane ), thus enabling it to touch/affect alle 5 prime Planes, continously.
And then all together continuously moving with the seasons
In my opinion it is impossible to realistically depict these planes on a two dimensional map. So your model is as good as mine. I thought about other reprentations, but I rather like this more classic version. I took some inspiration from Frank Mentzer's illustrations in the Gold Box for this. It would probably be better to label this as a diagram than a map though :)
I personally think (as you can read here) that Limbo and the Spirit Realm are both the same.viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15023&p=178857&hilit=Limbo#p178857
This would mean that World Mountain would touch Limbo. somewhere, and not the ethereal
I had missed that post, thanks for linking to it :) That is an interesting take on it. On the other hand it would make the Spirits and Ethengar rather dark though. Officially, the Ethengar gaz keeps the whole concept rather vague. I originally thought it could be another name for the Dreamlands or even all of the planes. The way I see it, Limbo is much too closely tied with the souls of the dead, Entropy and Undeath though, while many of Ethengars spirits do not give me that vibe. This is why I would make most of them native to the Ethereal itself. In any case, these decisions should not affect the actual map too much.
Dreamlands I believe to remember (Immortals Guide Wrath) was another Dimension, and not even a Plane and as such should not be mapped within this map. It has its dimensional contacts all over the Inner Planes though, as thus I would place Dreamland Gates on each to reflect that.
Could you be confusing this with the Dimension of Myths, or the Dimension of Nightmares perhaps? AFAIK, PC1 is the only book to reference the Dreamlands. This is the plane of the Fey and home to the Court of Oberon. It is not unlike the Feywild of the 4E/E cosmology, though I'm thinking it should have fewer Dinosaurs. I am going to make a separate post about M3 Twilight Calling, but I am also leaning towards making the Dreamlands the same plane as the Green Realm from that module.
To the other Locations; The Maze is actually an Outer Plane, not an Inner Planar Location.
Yes, you are right. I didnt think to consult the spell description last night, but it does specifically say that it leads to somewhere on the Astral Plane.
Just as the Bag of Holding, Shelter and House of Zebulon locations many of these exist only if the corresponding magi item exists.
That is an interesting philosophical question. Does that mean that mortal wizards are actually able to create new planes? Or do they reach out to a planar location and create the connection between that and the item?

Of course the House of Zebulon seems to be a unique item.

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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Havard » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:10 pm

Chimpman wrote:
Havard wrote:Question: Zendrolion mentioned the gate from Rugalov Keep from Dark Knight of Karameikos. I have not yet added this one. Anyone know what to make of it?
Would this be the gate to the Plane of Air? Or is it something different. I remember from when I did research on Yuri Molotov, that there was a gate to the Plane of Air in the old Aerodrome (stronghold of the Order of the White Drakes). Rugalov Keep is built over its ruins.

Ah, yes that is probably it. I know you mentioned that in the Plane of Air thread so I should have made the connection. I was wondering if it had something to do with that Tanarii guy. Its been ages since I read that book. Anyway, the Aerodrome thing will be added to the Plane of Air map, but not to this one.

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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Chimpman » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:37 pm

Havard wrote:
Chimpman wrote:
Havard wrote:Question: Zendrolion mentioned the gate from Rugalov Keep from Dark Knight of Karameikos. I have not yet added this one. Anyone know what to make of it?
Would this be the gate to the Plane of Air? Or is it something different. I remember from when I did research on Yuri Molotov, that there was a gate to the Plane of Air in the old Aerodrome (stronghold of the Order of the White Drakes). Rugalov Keep is built over its ruins.

Ah, yes that is probably it. I know you mentioned that in the Plane of Air thread so I should have made the connection. I was wondering if it had something to do with that Tanarii guy. Its been ages since I read that book. Anyway, the Aerodrome thing will be added to the Plane of Air map, but not to this one.
Well, Zen knows his stuff, and I personally haven't read any of those books. I'm just wondering if there is a second gate in Rugalov to somewhere else. That's a possibility as well.
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by julius_cleaver » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:41 pm

I would agree with the 3D comments. It is hard to "visualize" with that "map". I see the inner planes as "resting" on the Astral, surrounded by the Ethereal. I know you don't use the Quasi/Para-Elemental Planes, but what of Brynn, the Plane of Nightmares, and other cannon mentioned material?

I guess I should get busy and put my own "Multi-Verse" diagram/map up here to see what you think?
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Chimpman » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:42 pm

Havard wrote:
I personally think (as you can read here) that Limbo and the Spirit Realm are both the same.viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15023&p=178857&hilit=Limbo#p178857
This would mean that World Mountain would touch Limbo. somewhere, and not the ethereal
I had missed that post, thanks for linking to it :) That is an interesting take on it. On the other hand it would make the Spirits and Ethengar rather dark though. Officially, the Ethengar gaz keeps the whole concept rather vague. I originally thought it could be another name for the Dreamlands or even all of the planes. The way I see it, Limbo is much too closely tied with the souls of the dead, Entropy and Undeath though, while many of Ethengars spirits do not give me that vibe. This is why I would make most of them native to the Ethereal itself. In any case, these decisions should not affect the actual map too much.
I agree that GAZ12 leaves this concept kind of vague. One argument for making the Spirit Realm = Limbo, is that (IIRC) the Ethengarians think that they can contact some of their ancestors at the World Mountain. If correct, then that would mean that these "spirits" are the spirits of the dead. On the other hand, Limbo is supposed to be a one way ride, so to speak, and most spirits (of the dead) that go there aren't supposed to come back. In that case the World Mountain should not be tied Limbo.

Regardless, this is probably one of those issues that has multiple valid interpretations, based on individual DM preferences and story needs.
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Robin » Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:20 pm

Havard wrote:
Robin wrote:Though I see it more Threedimensional; A spheroid Prime Plane with the four spheroid elemental planes arranged like the 4 points of a D4 around it
and then Limbo twirled in between (as it is a moebious ring Plane ), thus enabling it to touch/affect alle 5 prime Planes, continously.
And then all together continuously moving with the seasons
In my opinion it is impossible to realistically depict these planes on a two dimensional map. So your model is as good as mine. I thought about other reprentations, but I rather like this more classic version. I took some inspiration from Frank Mentzer's illustrations in the Gold Box for this. It would probably be better to label this as a diagram than a map though :)
I totally agree that is nigh impossible...but I have contact with some artists from the kunstacademie (art-academie) here in town and they intend to give it a try in a "gif" moving picture file...so when they succeed I absolutely will deliver this here.. I myself am trying something similar with several balls, and such, so either way something will come up. :geek: :ugeek:
Havard wrote:
Robin wrote:I personally think (as you can read here) that Limbo and the Spirit Realm are both the same.viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15023&p=178857&hilit=Limbo#p178857
This would mean that World Mountain would touch Limbo. somewhere, and not the ethereal
I had missed that post, thanks for linking to it :) That is an interesting take on it. On the other hand it would make the Spirits and Ethengar rather dark though. Officially, the Ethengar gaz keeps the whole concept rather vague. I originally thought it could be another name for the Dreamlands or even all of the planes. The way I see it, Limbo is much too closely tied with the souls of the dead, Entropy and Undeath though, while many of Ethengars spirits do not give me that vibe. This is why I would make most of them native to the Ethereal itself. In any case, these decisions should not affect the actual map too much.
I agree it would make it dark indeed. But not necessarily, as Bruce refferred in his story that deeper within this realm the dark was more available, with its undead soul hunters. I think as Bruce suggested that the nearer to the Prime Plane (ie. where it touched in Ethengar) it is much lighter, safer and more peaceful. Keep in mind that when a character dies, it arrives at a random location in Limbo.
The Realm of the Dead (an Outer Plane from M3 indeed), I think more as one of the After life plains where you go (as Bruce mentioned) after a period of time in Limbo.
Havard wrote:
Robin wrote:Dreamlands I believe to remember (Immortals Guide Wrath) was another Dimension, and not even a Plane and as such should not be mapped within this map. It has its dimensional contacts all over the Inner Planes though, as thus I would place Dreamland Gates on each to reflect that.
Could you be confusing this with the Dimension of Myths, or the Dimension of Nightmares perhaps? AFAIK, PC1 is the only book to reference the Dreamlands. This is the plane of the Fey and home to the Court of Oberon. It is not unlike the Feywild of the 4E/E cosmology, though I'm thinking it should have fewer Dinosaurs. I am going to make a separate post about M3 Twilight Calling, but I am also leaning towards making the Dreamlands the same plane as the Green Realm from that module.
Hmmm the Fewwild.. (though I personally think 3rd and further editions of D&D corrupted the cosmic structure of D&D and even AD&D2 which deemed much more logical than the later editions), I agree it could be similar, but indeed much different...without the dino's indeed. Eitherway. I do not see it as a Sopheroid Plane, but more as a thick strechted Glob, crawling chaotically between the elemental and prime, toching it at chaotic (as it is) intervalls).
Havard wrote:
Robin wrote:To the other Locations; The Maze is actually an Outer Plane, not an Inner Planar Location.
Yes, you are right. I didnt think to consult the spell description last night, but it does specifically say that it leads to somewhere on the Astral Plane.
From the Rules Encyclopedia;
This spell creates an indestructible maze in the Astral Plane and places one victim into the maze (he gets no saving throw). The intelligence of the victim determines the time he needs to escape the maze.
From AD&D2 PHB;
An extradimensional space is brought into being upon the utterance of a maze spell. The subject vanishes into the shifting labyrinth of force planes for a period of time that is dependent upon its Intelligence. (Note: Minotaurs are not affected by this spell.)

Both seem to suggest a temporary creation. Although in Planescape a Maze Plane is referred to where the spell leads (http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/cre ... 0407163435
Havard wrote:
Robin wrote:Just as the Bag of Holding, Shelter and House of Zebulon locations many of these exist only if the corresponding magi item exists.
That is an interesting philosophical question. Does that mean that mortal wizards are actually able to create new planes? Or do they reach out to a planar location and create the connection between that and the item?Of course the House of Zebulon seems to be a unique item.
I totally agree. But think of it like the Bag of devouring which is a transdimensional mouth of a creature elsewhere (read Dragon Ecology of a Bag of Devouring(sorry forgot the edition). Maybe they only copied the magic they encountered before, with this creature.
As thus the small outer planes they create are small, and temporarily (some thing must be within it, it can't be subjected to Anti/dispel magic, nor can it be placed into other interplanar/interdimensional items/gates/vortives and such or will destroy both.
I believe to remember that Bruce spoke of 4 or 5 houses, and I seem to remember a Tower of Zebulon , making it more than 1 :P
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Robin » Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:24 pm

julius_cleaver wrote:. I know you don't use the Quasi/Para-Elemental Planes, but what of Brynn, the Plane of Nightmares, and other cannon mentioned material?
These are Outer Planes or Dimensions.
As you see within Wrarth Rulebook (at the end, the Prime Plane we know, belongs to the Multiverse dimension, with several outer planes mentioned (like Old Alphatia), but they listed other dimensions too, and these hold their own Prime Plane and Outer Planes and everything in between.
And to make it more confusing. then you have realities, where everything is similar but a minor thing made it different, and acording (an AM adventure in believe) each choice creates a new reality.A DM using a reality shift to encompass new rules/systems could use this thus.
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Robin » Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:34 pm

Chimpman wrote:I agree that GAZ12 leaves this concept kind of vague. One argument for making the Spirit Realm = Limbo, is that (IIRC) the Ethengarians think that they can contact some of their ancestors at the World Mountain. If correct, then that would mean that these "spirits" are the spirits of the dead. On the other hand, Limbo is supposed to be a one way ride, so to speak, and most spirits (of the dead) that go there aren't supposed to come back. In that case the World Mountain should not be tied Limbo.

Regardless, this is probably one of those issues that has multiple valid interpretations, based on individual DM preferences and story needs.
your first argument was one of my reasons to conclude this. there are several more within both planar descriptions.(especially in Bruce's article)
I agree Limbo seems a one way...but a Raise Dead, Reincarnation spell, or even a gate in Limbo to reincarnate are all existing ways to return.
And as following the old Greek tales, Hercules did enter and return, as thus other heroes could be possible doing the same...not to say it is an easy feat...noooooo not at all.
Spirits/aka souls however could also enter the Prime (see Bruce descriptions on Wraith, Ghoul, Spectres), and similar with ghosts, but these alter their features some(adapt) or exist in both at the same time.
The Ethengar spirits as thus would seem much more logical this way. especially bordering the Prime with intent protecting it.
(even though of course evil spirits exist doing the oposite)
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Yaztromo » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:47 pm

The Plane of Nightmares is actually very interesting and full of possibilities... it would be good keeping it on the frame, in my opinion.
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Robin » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:17 pm

Yaztromo wrote:The Plane of Nightmares is actually very interesting and full of possibilities... it would be good keeping it on the frame, in my opinion.
Actually this is the Dimension of Nightmares, but I agree it is very interesting :mrgreen: :ugeek:
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Havard » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:21 pm

julius_cleaver wrote:I would agree with the 3D comments. It is hard to "visualize" with that "map". I see the inner planes as "resting" on the Astral, surrounded by the Ethereal. I know you don't use the Quasi/Para-Elemental Planes, but what of Brynn, the Plane of Nightmares, and other cannon mentioned material?
Brynn, Entrem etc are Outer Planes, so outside the scope of this map. Basically they are connected to the Astral Plane, which is parallell to the Ethereal Plane.

The Dimension of Nightmares and other Dimensions are separate even from this...parallell to the entire Multiverse Dimension each with its own Multiverse.
I guess I should get busy and put my own "Multi-Verse" diagram/map up here to see what you think?
Yes, I would love to see other peoples' takes on this too! :) My version is just one attempt at getting this illustrated. It would be great to see how other people see the planar structures :)

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ripvanwormer
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by ripvanwormer » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:18 am

The Golden Khan of Ethengar says (DM's Guide, page 37) that the Spirit World is "an outer plane that was brought into close contact with the Known World following the Great Rain of Fire that destroyed Blackmoor," which is fascinating to me because it indicates that the Great Rain of Fire wasn't just a mundane nuclear holocaust but a planar disaster that affected other planes of existence.

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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Cthulhudrew » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:44 am

ripvanwormer wrote:The Golden Khan of Ethengar says (DM's Guide, page 37) that the Spirit World is "an outer plane that was brought into close contact with the Known World following the Great Rain of Fire that destroyed Blackmoor," which is fascinating to me because it indicates that the Great Rain of Fire wasn't just a mundane nuclear holocaust but a planar disaster that affected other planes of existence.
This is something I have played with a bit in various ways, the notion that the GRoF extended beyond just the planet of Mystara. It seems clear to me that the Radiance is doing something... odd... in "draining" Mystara's magic through overuse. (How is magic tied to a locale? How would it affect travelers from beyond Mystara if they came and went? Etc.) Of course, that was altered by Old Ones so isn't "just" a nuclear engine any longer.

There is also an interesting mention in PC2: Top Ballista about the engines of Serraine that the gnomes built, using modified Blackmoor technology; it mentions the "five-dimensional fracturing of the drive units" that attract planar spiders. This was kind of the basis on which I developed (further developed) my Dark Glantri idea and the Nightmarish parallel Glantri that I wrote of in Threshold #2 a few years back.

Definitely something to be mined there, given the nature of the Ethengarian spirits and how they were brought into close contact with the Prime.
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by ripvanwormer » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:49 am

Cthulhudrew wrote: (How is magic tied to a locale? How would it affect travelers from beyond Mystara if they came and went? Etc.
I associated that (and the mention of "five-dimensional fracturing") with the concept of dimensional aberrations from the Immortals Set.
DM's Guide to Immortals wrote:Limited or curtailed magical effect and ranges is the most common symptom of dimensional aberration. This is most obvious when magic using residents of one part of a plane find themselves unable to use magic in another part of the same plane. All three of the known infinite planes, the Prime, Ethereal, and Astral, contain areas of dimensional aberration. Most of the principal residents of these planes are located well away from the distorted region. Unfortunately, dimensional aberrations are not static phenomena; they move in waves. Magic-using residents of a plane may be subjected to regular cycles of limited or nonexistent magic, or may suffer a sudden and unexpected removal of magical power. Similarly, an entire technological civilization in the midst of a dimensionally turbulent area may suddenly find itself populated by magic-users when the aberration passes.

Immortals may sometimes erect obstacles to block or reduce the effects of the waves of dimensional distortion.

Many causes produce this type of turbulence, including the very motion of stellar and planetary bodies. A fluctuating mass, like a quasar, is another common disruptive influence, producing an effect sometimes called gravity waves that may distort dimensions.
From this point of view, the Nucleus of the Spheres (and perhaps, to a lesser degree, the gnomish flight drives) is attracting a dimensional aberration in the same way that a quasar might. That means it's not necessarily a permanent effect; it might drift away on its own eventually, or it might be made to do so by, for example, adding another planet to Mystaraspace (what if the destruction of Damocles is an attempt by the Immortals to restore Mystara's magic?).

This is also an interesting explanation for the Earthdawn and Shadowrun settings.

The idea that a dimensional aberration might draw an outer plane into conjunction with the Prime is something I hadn't considered, but it seems very possible.

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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Robin » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:13 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:
ripvanwormer wrote:The Golden Khan of Ethengar says (DM's Guide, page 37) that the Spirit World is "an outer plane that was brought into close contact with the Known World following the Great Rain of Fire that destroyed Blackmoor," which is fascinating to me because it indicates that the Great Rain of Fire wasn't just a mundane nuclear holocaust but a planar disaster that affected other planes of existence.
This is something I have played with a bit in various ways, the notion that the GRoF extended beyond just the planet of Mystara. It seems clear to me that the Radiance is doing something... odd... in "draining" Mystara's magic through overuse. (How is magic tied to a locale? How would it affect travelers from beyond Mystara if they came and went? Etc.) Of course, that was altered by Old Ones so isn't "just" a nuclear engine any longer.

There is also an interesting mention in PC2: Top Ballista about the engines of Serraine that the gnomes built, using modified Blackmoor technology; it mentions the "five-dimensional fracturing of the drive units" that attract planar spiders. This was kind of the basis on which I developed (further developed) my Dark Glantri idea and the Nightmarish parallel Glantri that I wrote of in Threshold #2 a few years back.

Definitely something to be mined there, given the nature of the Ethengarian spirits and how they were brought into close contact with the Prime.
This is what I thought of something in the post magicviewtopic.php?f=3&t=15838
As it attracted the Outer Plane within the Inner Planes, it enable Undead to become possible on the Prime Plane (before Blackmoor they seemed not to exist). It spreads more chaos and death (to the Liking of Thanatos and many another Entropic Immortal :twisted:
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Havard » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:26 pm

Okay, I'm going to give you guys a version with the Spirit World references removed in a few days, but before that I wanted to share this version with you:

Image

What I have done here is add the pocket planes (Blue Realm, Red Realm etc..) from M3 Twilight Callling. One modification that I mentioned earlier is that I made the Green Realm = The Dreamlands. I also added the reference Kingdom of the Moon to the White Realm, as a combination of M3 and X4(?).

What do you think? Should these pocket planes be part of the Inner Planes or do they belong among the Outer Planes?


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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Robin » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:32 pm

@ Havard... You made me curious at M3 again through this, and due this you helped me for another location of the Broken Lands the Guardian Mesa , although I can't exactly pinpoint it as of yet...even while digging through the module
The characters first must reach Guardian Mesa, a known landmark in The Broken Lands. Sages in Corunglain or in Glantri City can point out Guardian Mesa’s location.Guardian Mesa is a noted landmark in The Broken Lands.Guardian Mesa is in the approximate center of the Broken Lands, about 50 miles from the city ofcorunglain. None of them knows for sure what it is. The entrance to the top of the plateau lies in a large cave at the foot of Guardian Mesa. At the end of the cave is a circular lift that can magically raise the characters to the plateautop of‘the mesa. A permanent force field in the shape of a sphere keeps the top of the plateau out reach from outsiders. It cannot be dispelled! because it was installed by Immortals. Characters incapable of teleporting or using dimension door to get inside have to enter throuqh the cave at the bottom of the plateau. A high mesa of gray basalt rises among the sharp jagged rocks. roughly circular in shape. The mesa towers a thousand feet high and 500 feet wide. The top of the mesa is shrouded by strange clouds, much like normal storm clouds, but at times they mysteriously reflect different colors. Sometimes they have a blue tint; sometimes they look red. While you watch you see every color of the rainbow come and go.At the base of the mesa is a large cave.The cave is about 20 feet wide and runs straight inside the mesa as far as you can see.


However, I really hate to spoil your very nice creative storm of ideas (reaally :oops: ), but as I read through the adventure module; I read these two quotes M3 page 2
The Immortals created seven magical pocket dimensions between the dimension of the Carnifex and the party’s own world.
Age old Immortals created these pocket dimensions eons ago to surround the realm of the Carnifex. Each dimension has been designed to test the abilities of those who would dare enter and reach the Carnifex.

As thus I have to conclude they aren't planes at all, and thus actually do not belong on the map you made. They are dimensions, not pPlanes (Outer or Inner), and are thus perpendicular to our dimension multiverse like other dimensions are. Maybe they belong to the same dimension (which is different that our dimension) but to other local planes, but still it is cannonically somewhere completely different..

That some fans made it in almanac 1015 AC in Demi-Planes, but according Canon M3 this is wrong, they are dimensions.
THAUMONT 25, AC 1015: First Trip Through the Septahenge.
Location: Guardian Mesa, unknown location on Mystara (in other words, up to the individual DM - canon material suggests the Broken Lands).
Description: After some months of research and studies, the Shadowlord finally discovers the secret of the Septahenge. He understands that to open the Gate to the Pits of Banishment where the Carnifex and the Black Staff lie, he must collect seven keys guarded by seven different beings in the Outer Planes. Followed by his retainers, he enters one of the Seven Realms to obtain the first key. (See Fl. 4, Fl. 19.)
What This Means: The Shadowlord wants the Black Staff because he thinks it will help him achieve full lichdom and get rid of Idris's yoke. He's keeping his plans and his mission secret even to the High Priest of Idris and nothing will stop him (he discovered the location of the Guardian Mesa in Kaldmont AC 1014).
This storyline is based on the adventure module "M3 - Twilight Calling." The Seven Realms (and the Pits of Banishment) are actually Demi-Planes floating within the Ethereal, each with their own laws of physics, and not Outer Planes as the Shadowlord believes. Still, this won't really change anything he has to do. [If playing a D&D campaign, then the Seven Realms are indeed Outer Planes.]
Sorry :oops:
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Re: Mystara's Inner Planes (with Map)

Post by Yaztromo » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:44 pm

You made me think about the Rainbow Bridge, with the latest version of the planes.
I'm the Real Nowhere Man, sitting in my Nowhere Land,
making all my Nowhere plans for Nobody.

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