Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

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Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Havard » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:51 pm

Image
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So, I was doing these planar maps last month, but I never got around to sharing my attempt at mapping the Outer Planes. This is still work in progress, but I wanted to show you what I have so far. Still to be added are the home planes of the best known Immortals as well as a few other locations.

Technically speaking, the Inner Planes as all Infinite (Universe Size) planes as is the Astral Plane, but it seemed nicer to place it as a slice of the trunk of Yggdrasil in this diagram.


What do you think?



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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Big Mac » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:42 pm

Very pretty.

I don't know Frank Mentzer's cosmology. What's the significance of the different shapes? Do the planes with straight edges have things in common with each other that they don't have in common with the planes with the rounded corners?
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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Robin » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:43 pm

Although it is a near impossible feat to attempt to map the Outer Planes (especially in a 2dimensional medium), I honor your attempt with respect.
I personally Like the Idea of using Yggdrasil the World Ash as a connective conduit plane between the Planes. However Yggdrasil was connected only to 9 realms, not more.
However, there are more of these conductive Planes like Yggdrasil; The River Styx (lower Planes), and the River Oceanus according to ancient legends.
The AD&D2 game uses a ring of nearby outer planes Through which these conduit Planes "grow", and the further away from the Prime the less connections and more chaos exists. This "ring" was organized more or less evil low good up, and Chaos in one perpendicular direction opposing law the other. As this system was also based on a 2dimensional representation, I personally believe, if it had to be a map similar to this, another perpendicular orientation was needed, and the "Ring" of Outer Planes would behave like a wave up and down along the surface affected by the orientation of these directions of the perpendicular axis.
Typically AD&D2 uses a few of these Outer Planes in the Ring as being Neutral so I would asign the 3rd axis to these.
Strangly enough, they used the name Limbo for one of the and something called concordant opposition, which I believed to be the connextion to other realities. I can't remember if thge AD&D2 Limbo and Mystara Limbo have similarities enough to be the same, but the only map clear enough reveals differences (as holding several connecting outer Planes) so I deem if using this another name is needed or an explanation to the connecting outer Planes of this"Limbo"
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/for ... 0212182059

Whatever you decide, I already like the map :lol: , but like Big Mac, i question the shapes of the white figures why,and secondly the reason/logic between the extra (more than the original 9) planes connected
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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by ripvanwormer » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:20 am

The image of the World Ash behind the Outer Planes is gorgeous to look at; I think it looks better than a smaller version that only covered a constellation of nine planes would be.

I wouldn't consider it a hard and fast rule that Yggdrasil touches exactly nine planes, anyway. It might be less: is Midgard really an outer plane or is it another name for LaTerre? Is Alfheim an outer plane or is it the same plane as the Feywood from Tall Tales of the Wee Folk? It might be more, too: just because the Northmen only know of nine portals on Yggdrasil doesn't mean those are all the portals that exist.

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Robin » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:01 am

Midgardh= the Prime Plane.
Alfheim = not Feywood, but may have access to the fairy realm like on Mystara
Yggdrasil= literally known by the Immortals as the Bearer of 9 worlds. Of course that does not say anything of these worlds having their own other acces to other worlds.
Nifflheim for example could well also be connected to the Styx like the Prime Plane and Asgardh has as far as I remember a connection to Oceanus in AD&D2.
thus more is possible, but as the immortal rules dictate the number Outer Planes are as infinite as the Astral Plane they are in...making a complete map impossibly large...and the worst thing is...those pesky immortals are able to move Planes with simple spell(ok..ok of immortal power)...and there exist wandering Planes, accidents happen, thus outer planes may come and seize to be or merge or break apart, and each bag of holding (or similar effect)created by mortals temporarily creates a tiny outer Plane..it is utter chaos there.even immortals do not really like it unless settled
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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Big Mac » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:18 pm

Robin wrote:The AD&D2 game uses a ring of nearby outer planes Through which these conduit Planes "grow", and the further away from the Prime the less connections and more chaos exists. This "ring" was organized more or less evil low good up, and Chaos in one perpendicular direction opposing law the other. As this system was also based on a 2dimensional representation, I personally believe, if it had to be a map similar to this, another perpendicular orientation was needed, and the "Ring" of Outer Planes would behave like a wave up and down along the surface affected by the orientation of these directions of the perpendicular axis.
Typically AD&D2 uses a few of these Outer Planes in the Ring as being Neutral so I would asign the 3rd axis to these.
Strangly enough, they used the name Limbo for one of the and something called concordant opposition, which I believed to be the connextion to other realities. I can't remember if thge AD&D2 Limbo and Mystara Limbo have similarities enough to be the same, but the only map clear enough reveals differences (as holding several connecting outer Planes) so I deem if using this another name is needed or an explanation to the connecting outer Planes of this"Limbo"
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/for ... 0212182059
Did the 2nd Edition AD&D version of Mystara swap out Frank Mentzer's BECMI cosmology for the Great Wheel Cosmology? :?
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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Havard » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:14 pm

Big Mac wrote:Very pretty.

I don't know Frank Mentzer's cosmology. What's the significance of the different shapes? Do the planes with straight edges have things in common with each other that they don't have in common with the planes with the rounded corners?
Thank you!

The Mentzer Immortals Set (Gold Box) has Outer Planes in many different sizes and shapes. In my case however, the differences are mainly for artistic reasons. :)

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Havard » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:03 pm

Robin wrote:Although it is a near impossible feat to attempt to map the Outer Planes (especially in a 2dimensional medium), I honor your attempt with respect.
I personally Like the Idea of using Yggdrasil the World Ash as a connective conduit plane between the Planes. However Yggdrasil was connected only to 9 realms, not more.
However, there are more of these conductive Planes like Yggdrasil; The River Styx (lower Planes), and the River Oceanus according to ancient legends.
The AD&D2 game uses a ring of nearby outer planes Through which these conduit Planes "grow", and the further away from the Prime the less connections and more chaos exists. This "ring" was organized more or less evil low good up, and Chaos in one perpendicular direction opposing law the other. As this system was also based on a 2dimensional representation, I personally believe, if it had to be a map similar to this, another perpendicular orientation was needed, and the "Ring" of Outer Planes would behave like a wave up and down along the surface affected by the orientation of these directions of the perpendicular axis.
Typically AD&D2 uses a few of these Outer Planes in the Ring as being Neutral so I would asign the 3rd axis to these.
Strangly enough, they used the name Limbo for one of the and something called concordant opposition, which I believed to be the connextion to other realities. I can't remember if thge AD&D2 Limbo and Mystara Limbo have similarities enough to be the same, but the only map clear enough reveals differences (as holding several connecting outer Planes) so I deem if using this another name is needed or an explanation to the connecting outer Planes of this"Limbo"
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/for ... 0212182059
Thanks, I am glad you like it!
I should point out that while Yggrasil appears to be touching every plane, that does not necessarily mean that it connects to all of them. IMC, it works as a nexus connecting to many planes beyond the 9 realms, but probably not every single plane. Some are definitely locked off.

As you know I tend to base these maps exclusively on non AD&D Mystara sources (BECMI, WotI etc). There are still other nexus planes available such as the Rainbow Bridge and a few others. As to Limbo and the Spirit World, I am keeping those part of the Inner Planes for now, even though they may have been Outer Planes pre Blackmoor too.

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Havard » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:49 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:The image of the World Ash behind the Outer Planes is gorgeous to look at; I think it looks better than a smaller version that only covered a constellation of nine planes would be.

I wouldn't consider it a hard and fast rule that Yggdrasil touches exactly nine planes, anyway. It might be less: is Midgard really an outer plane or is it another name for LaTerre? Is Alfheim an outer plane or is it the same plane as the Feywood from Tall Tales of the Wee Folk? It might be more, too: just because the Northmen only know of nine portals on Yggdrasil doesn't mean those are all the portals that exist.
Thank you Rip! :)

I lean towards making Midgard another name for LaTerre too. I tend to make Alfheim a separate plane from the Wee Folk plane (which I have now merged with the Spirit World), but I agree that these are both valid and interesting interpretations, worth exploring. There might be others too.

I think the idea of making Yggdrasil connect to LaTerre as well as Mystara's Multiverse is really interesting though. That opens up some some very interesting possibilities. I would assume that LaTerre has its own planes too though?

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by julius_cleaver » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:05 am

Big Mac wrote:Did the 2nd Edition AD&D version of Mystara swap out Frank Mentzer's BECMI cosmology for the Great Wheel Cosmology? :?
Not to my knowledge. But then 2E tried to make a lot of blahais correlations of the many different campaign settings. Thus I give you the 2E Elves Handbook, which had a tree denoting all the branches of elves...From Oerth to Athas. If found upon one of the lower levels of Giamond Diep--Fiaer Giamonds Great Library-- amongst other rare tomes, a studious sage might consider such knowledge "rubbish".

Furthermore...no attempt was made to include Mystaran Elves in the "debacle"...Thank the Immortals!!

I would assume this is perhaps because Mystara had yet to be converted to AD&D by the time of the that products release?

While I do like the use of the Yggdrasil motif/watermark on your outer planes map, this might be as far as I went when making comparisons with Mystaras Mythos, and that of the Scandinavian cultures of Earth. Despite Odin and other Norse Immortals wandering around Mystara's Pantheon.

But considering your roots...this might be just the thing for a Havardian campaign. As for myself, I try and stay away from drawing too close an inspiration from real world sources...be they language or mythology. That gets a little harder to do with clothes and food...without creating entire cultures from scratch. Something nearly impossible to do and have everything make sense. We all understand what a cassock is...and it could be worn by several Immortal Churches, just as we use temple or church to denote places of worship, without needing to explain these garments aren't Catholic.

Though I really like your many of your Inner & Outer Plane stuff, I don't think I would use Niflheim, Jotunheim, Asgard, Alfheim, or other completely Norse names for any of (the/my) Outer Planes. Nonetheless, a lot of great ideas and material to consider Havard.

I really like your inclusion of Brynn, The Draconic Cluster, and Draesten in the Outer Planes; and The Eternal Stairway, The Dreamlands (or The Twilight Realm*), the City of Pandius, World Mountain Gate, Skarda's Mirror, and The City of Brass.

I was also unfamiliar with some locations. Including The Maze, The Shelter, Camp of the Yak Brothers, and your use of Limbo as a plane diametrically opposed to the Dreamlands. Where would you put the Plane of Nightmares? If at all?

*The Dreamlands...or The Twilight Realm are the same thing IMC. Or I should say the terms are interchangeable...they denote the same thing.

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by ripvanwormer » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:33 am

Big Mac wrote:Did the 2nd Edition AD&D version of Mystara swap out Frank Mentzer's BECMI cosmology for the Great Wheel Cosmology? :?
Yes. The Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix made reference to Great Wheel planes like the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum and changed the Dimension of Nightmares into the Demiplane of Nightmares. The Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium mentioned the Great Wheel plane Carceri. The Planewalker's Handbook included a paragraph on Mystara in its list of Prime Material worlds. Uncaged: Faces of Sigil included an NPC from Mystara living in Sigil. Domains of Dread gave the Dark Lord Meredoth a Mystaran origin. Warriors of Heaven gave named realms in the Great Wheel to many Mystaran Immortals.

My main problem with Warriors of Heaven's assignations is that instead of inventing new realm names for the Immortals, Chris Perkins just took existing names on the planar maps, which in some cases were inappropriate. For example, Ixion's realm is called "The Nest of the Phoenix," which sounds relatively sensible for a patron of the sun if we're to take the name metaphorically, but if you look up that location in The Deva Spark it's just a literal phoenix nest made of "straw and herbs and shiny trinkets." It wouldn't have been hard to come up with a new name like The Sun Palace or even to have him share Pelor's realm of Light's Blessing. Making him share a straw nest with a bird is just demeaning. Similarly, the patron of the shadow elves, Rafiel, was given a realm called Pax Benefice, which if you just look at the name you might sort of squint and think Rafiel might find that an acceptable place to live but it's actually detailed in The Deva Spark as a town on the surface ruled by a dwarf and... that's probably the least appropriate place for Rafiel to be.

In my Exodus of the Flaem history, I used the 4th edition plane of Hestavar for Ixion's plane.

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Havard » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:33 am

julius_cleaver wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Did the 2nd Edition AD&D version of Mystara swap out Frank Mentzer's BECMI cosmology for the Great Wheel Cosmology? :?
Not to my knowledge. But then 2E tried to make a lot of blahais correlations of the many different campaign settings. Thus I give you the 2E Elves Handbook, which had a tree denoting all the branches of elves...From Oerth to Athas. If found upon one of the lower levels of Giamond Diep--Fiaer Giamonds Great Library-- amongst other rare tomes, a studious sage might consider such knowledge "rubbish".

Furthermore...no attempt was made to include Mystaran Elves in the "debacle"...Thank the Immortals!!

I would assume this is perhaps because Mystara had yet to be converted to AD&D by the time of the that products release?
I have to say I share some of these views on the AD&D products that tried to unify all of the TSR settings. The problem was that it often resulted in downplaying the unique features of each setting resulting in something very bland instead. Not everything was bad in these books, but it was an opportunity missed IMHO.

While I do like the use of the Yggdrasil motif/watermark on your outer planes map, this might be as far as I went when making comparisons with Mystaras Mythos, and that of the Scandinavian cultures of Earth. Despite Odin and other Norse Immortals wandering around Mystara's Pantheon.

But considering your roots...this might be just the thing for a Havardian campaign. As for myself, I try and stay away from drawing too close an inspiration from real world sources...be they language or mythology. That gets a little harder to do with clothes and food...without creating entire cultures from scratch. Something nearly impossible to do and have everything make sense. We all understand what a cassock is...and it could be worn by several Immortal Churches, just as we use temple or church to denote places of worship, without needing to explain these garments aren't Catholic.

Though I really like your many of your Inner & Outer Plane stuff, I don't think I would use Niflheim, Jotunheim, Asgard, Alfheim, or other completely Norse names for any of (the/my) Outer Planes. Nonetheless, a lot of great ideas and material to consider Havard.
Thanks for this feedback!

I can relate to the reluctance to use elements directly from Norse Mythology. My main reason for using them is because they are in the gazetteers, One alternative could be to introduce alternative names for these planes:
Jotunheim: Gigantus (Home Plane of Giants)
Swergheim: The Forge
Asgard: The Divine Fortress
Niflheim: The Frost Realm
etc

As to Yggdrasil, one way to treat this is that it not really a tree at all. The Ethengars liken the Prime Material to the World Yurt. Perhaps the World Ash is only compared to a tree to make the Northmen understand the concept of a Planar Nexus with branches reaching to many of the planes?

I really like your inclusion of Brynn, The Draconic Cluster, and Draesten in the Outer Planes; and The Eternal Stairway, The Dreamlands (or The Twilight Realm*), the City of Pandius, World Mountain Gate, Skarda's Mirror, and The City of Brass.
Thanks! I have tried to include as many planes from the rulebooks and modules as possible. I like digging out the obscure ones.
I was also unfamiliar with some locations. Including The Maze, The Shelter, Camp of the Yak Brothers, and your use of Limbo as a plane diametrically opposed to the Dreamlands. Where would you put the Plane of Nightmares? If at all?

The Maze: This is the place where people are sent by the Maze spell. As Robin pointed out, it should be turned into an Outer Plane, accessible from the Astral
The Shelter is liked to the Shelter scroll. I suppose there could be as many shelters as there are scrolls, or perhaps it is just a single plane with lots of rooms each accessible by a single scroll?
The Yak Brothers are from the Ethengar Gazetteer, but the idea that they would have a "Camp" in the Spirit World is some creative lisence on my part.

The idea of placing the Dreamlands and Limbo as diametrically opposite Inner Planes is also my interpretation as official material is very vague on the details.


The Plane of Nightmares...or rather the Dimension of Nightmares will be appearing on my next map. I will post that later today! :)

*The Dreamlands...ot The Twilight Realm are the same thing IMC. Or I should say the terms are interchangeable...they denote the same thing.
By Twilight Realm you refer to "the Seven Realms" from M3 Twilight Calling? Or is it just your name for the Dreamlands? I like the name, but wasn't exactly sure what you were saying here.

Again, thanks for the feedback! :)

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Robin » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:38 pm

I remembered that for another compilation book I once made(but did not finish as of yet), I searched for all Planes ever mentioned in OD&D, D&D basic, Mystara references(D&D, AD&D1+2, D&D3-4-5, D20), books, adventures, gazetteers, etc. Including Fan based material (like the Immortal lists on Pandius by James Mishler), And from this I compiled a list of all Planes (not including any dimensions). :ugeek:
This is the list. :shock: :o :mrgreen:
Plane|Prominent Sphere|Placement|Access through..|Home Plane of… [color=#0080FF][b]Elysium[/b][/color]|Time|Outer Planar Ring| Astral Plane|Chaotic Good [b]Amoria[/b]|Time|1st Layer Elysium|River Oceanus, Astral Plane, Eronia| -- [b]Bellerin[/b]|Time|2nd Layer Elysium|River Oceanus, Eronia, Thalasia|-- [b]Eronia[/b]|Time|3rd Layer Elysium|River Oceanus, Amoria, Eronia|Extra Planar Beings [b]Thalasia[/b]|Time|4th Layer Elysium|Bellerin, River Oceanus|-- |||| [color=#408000][b]Happy Hunting Grounds(Beastlands) [/color][/b]|Matter|Outer Planar Ring (3 Layers)|Astral Plane|Neutral. Atruaghin [b]Krigala[/b]|Matter|1st Layer |Astral Plane, Olympus, Elysium, Concordant, Brux|Plants [b]Brux[/b]|Matter|2nd Layer|Krigala, Karasuthra, Brux |Plants [b]Karasutra[/b] |Matter|3rd Layer|Brux|Plants |||| [color=#00BFFF][b]Olympus[/b][/color]|Thought|Outer Planar Ring(3 layers)|Astral Plane|Chaotic Good [b]Arvandor(Mount Olympus)[/b]|Thought|Top Layer Olympus|Astral Plane, Ossa, Mount Olympus, Lake Thetys|Zeus [b]Ossa(Aquallor)[/b]|Thought|2nd Layer Olympus|Mount Olympus, River Oceanus, Pellon|Poseidon [b]Pellon (Mithandir)[/b]|Thought|3rd Layer of Olympus Ossa|Devastated Domain|empty |||| [color=#0000FF][b]Oceanus, River[/b][/color]|Time|Inter planar Vortex|Elysium, Happy Hunting Grounds, and Olympus |NA |||| [color=#FF0000][b]Gladsheim[/b][/color]|Differs|Outer Planar Ring(7 connections)|Yggdrasil|Chaotic Neutral [b]Asgard[/b]|Thought|Top Part of Gladsheim|Astral Plane, Yggdrasil|Odin [b]Muspelheim[/b]|Entropy|Mid Part of Gladsheim|Asgard, Yggdrasil|Surt (The Fire Giant) [b]Alfheim[/b]|Time|Part of Gladsheim|Yggdrasil|The Norse Elves [b]Vanaheim[/b]|Thought|Part of Gladsheim|Yggdrasil|Frey and Freyja [b]Svartalfheim[/b]|Entropy|Part of Gladsheim|Yggdrasil |The Norse Dark Elves [b]Swergheim[/b]|Matter|Part of Gladsheim|Yggdrasil|The Norse Elder Dwarves [b]Jotunheim[/b]|Matter|Part of Gladsheim|Yggdrasil|The Norse Giants [b]Niflheim[/b]|Entropy|Part of Gladsheim and Hades|Oinos, Pluton, Yggdrasil|Hel [b]Nidavellir[/b]|Matter|Lowest Part of Gladsheim|Yggdrasil|Chaotic Good |||| [color=#FF0000]The Rainbow Bridge(Bifrost)[/color]| Energy|Free Outer Plane|Asgard, Prime, Astral Plane, Corridor in Space|Heimdal |||| [b]Thrudheim[/b]|Energy|Free Outer Plane (near Gladsheim)|Asgard and Astral|Thor [b]Utgarth|[/b]Entropy|Free Outer Plane (near Gladsheim)| Asgard and Astral|Loki |||| [color=#408000][b]Yggdrasil[/b][/color]|Special|Interplanar /Inter-Dimensional Nexus |Asgard, Muspelheim, Alfheim, Vanaheim, Svartalfheim, Swergheim, Jotunheim, Niflheim, Nidavellir, Midgardh(Prime Plane)|-. |||| [color=#FF0000][b]Abyss[/b][/color]|Entropy|Outer Planar Ring (666 layers)|Astral Plane, River Styx|Demons Deadly Chaotic [b]Pazunia (Pazuzu)[/b]|Entropy|1st Layer|Astral Plane, 2nd, 64th , 65th Layer| Pazuzu and Demons [b]Grazt’s Realm[/b]|Entropy|23rd Layer|22ndand 24th Layer |Graz’zt [b]Ossia[/b]|Entropy|43rd Layer|42nd and 44th Layer|Orcus [b]Demogorgonia[/b]|Entropy|35th to 62nd Layer|Upper and Lower Layers|Demogorgon [b]Lolth Domain[/b]|Entropy|65th Layer|Pazunia, 2nd, 64th and 66th Layers respectively|Lolth [b]Lolth Web[/b]|Entropy|66th Layer|Pazunia, 2nd, 64th and 65th Layers respectively|Lolth [b]Yenoghus[/b]|Entropy|112th Layer|111th and 113rd Layer|Yeenoghu [b]Kostchtchie’s Domain[/b]|Entropy|121st Layer|120th and 122nd Layers|Koschtchie [b]Doomgaard[/b]|Entropy|170th layer|Astral Plane, 169th , 212th, or 171st layer| Alphaks [b]Baphomet’s realm[/b]|Entropy|330th to 340th Layers| 329th and 341st Layers|Baphomet and Minotaurs [b]Frazinia[/b]|Entropy|451st Layer|452nd and 450th Layers|Fraz-Urb’Luu (Demon) [b]Zuggtmoy’s Domain[/b]|Entropy|142nd Layer|141st, 143rd, 266th, 345th, 513th, and 612th Layer|Zuggtmoy and Demons [b]Zuggtmoy’s Domain[/b]|Entropy|266th Layer| 142nd, 265th, 267th, 345th, 513th, and 612th Layer|Zuggtmoy and Demons [b]Zuggtmoy’s Domain[/b]|Entropy|345th Layer| 142nd, 266th, 344th, 345th 513th, and 612th Layer|Zuggtmoy and Demons [b]Zuggtmoy’s Domain[/b]|Entropy|513th Layer|142nd, 266th, 345th, 512th, 514th and 612th Layer|Zuggtmoy and Demons [b]Zuggtmoy’s Domain[/b]|Entropy|612th Layer|142nd, 266th, 345th, 513th, and 613th , 616th Layer|Zuggtmoy and Demons |||| [color=#FF8000][b]Acheron[/b][/color]|Thought|Outer Planar Ring (4 layers)|Astral Plane |Lawful Evil [b]Avalas (Battlefields)[/b]|Entropy| 1st Layer of Acheron| Astral Plane, Thuladin, River Styx, Nirvana,Acheron, Concordant, 9 Hells|-- [b]Thuladin[/b]|Energy|2nd Layer of Acheron|Avalas, Tintibullus| -- [b]Tintibullus[/b]|Energy|3rd Layer of Acheron|Thuladin, Ocanthus| -- [b]Ocanthus[/b] |Energy|4th Layer of Acheron|Tintibullus| -- |||| [color=#FF8000][b]Gehenna[/b][/color]|Differs|Outer Planar Ring(4 layers)|Astral Plane|Neutral Evil [b]Khalas[/b]|Matter-Energy| Top Layer of Gehenna|Astral Plane, Chamada|Devils [b]Chamada[/b] |Energy/Thought/Entropy|2nd Layer of Gehenna|Khalas, Mungoth|Devils [b]Mungoth[/b]|Time/Entropy|3rd layer of Gehenna|Chamada, Krangath|Devils [b]Krangath[/b]| Energy /Entropy|Lowest Layer of Gehenna|Mungoth|Devils |||| [color=#004000][b]Hades[/b][/color]|Entropy|Outer Planar Ring(3 layers)|Astral Plane|Chaotic Evil [b]Niflheim[/b]|Entropy|Part of Gladsheim and Hades|Oinos, Pluton, Yggdrasil|Daemons, Hel [b]Pluton (Hades)[/b]|Entropy|Part of Hades|Niflheim, Oinos, Mount Olympus|Hel, Anthraxus [b]Oinos[/b]|Entropy|Part of Hades| Astral Plane, River Styx, Niflheim|Daemons |||| [color=#4040FF][b]Hell[/b][/color]|Entropy|Outer Planar Ring(9 layers)|Astral Plane|Chaotic Evil [b]Avernus[/b]|Entropy|1st Hell|Astral Plane, Dis, Acheron, Gehenna,River Styx, Concordant, Prime Plane |Bel, Tiamat, Abishai, Lemures, Spinagon, Nupperibos,Evil Dragons, Humanoids. [b]Dis[/b]|Entropy|2nd Layer of Hell|Avernus, Minauros|Dispater, Abishai, Lemures, Nupperibos, Spinagons, Shades, Planars, Imps. [b]Minauros[/b]|Entropy|3rd Layer of Hell|Dis, Phlegethos|Mammon, Hamatulas, Lemures, Nupperibos, Spinagons, Planars. [b]Phlegetos[/b]|Entropy|4th Layer of Hell|Stygia, Minauros|Belial, Fierana, Hamatulas, Cornugons, Spinagons, Hell Hounds. [b]Stygia[/b]|Entropy|5th Layer of Hell|River Styx, Phlegethos, Malbolge|Levistus, Abishai, Amnizu, Erinyes, Spinagons, Planar [b]Malbolge[/b]|Entropy|6th Layer of Hell|Maladomini, Stygia|Malagard, Barbazu, Gelugons, Spinagons, ???? [b]Maladomini[/b]|Entropy |7th Layer of Hell|Malbolge, Caina|Baalzebul, Barbazu, Cornugons, Erinyes, Lemures, Spinagons. [b]Caina[/b]|Entropy|8th Layer of Hell|Maladomini, Nessus|Mephistopholes, Gelugons, Kochrachons. [b]Nessus[/b]|Entropy|9th and Last Layer of Hell|Caina| Asmodeus, Cornugons, Pit Fiends,Death upon entry!!! |||| [color=#004000][b]Pandemonium[/b]|[/color]Differs|Outer Planar Ring(4 layers) |Astral Plane|Chaotic Evil [b]Pandesmos[/b]|Time|1st Layer of Pandemonium|River Styx, Astral Plane| -- [b]Cocytus[/b]|Thought|2nd Layer of Pandemonium|Pandesmos, Phlegethon |-- [b]Phlegeton[/b]|Energy|3rd Layer of Pandemonium|Cocytus, Agathion|-- [b]Agathion[/b]|Matter|Deepest Layer of Pandemonium|Phlegeton |-- |||| [color=#004000][b]Tartarus[/b][/color]|Entropy|Outer Planar Ring(6 Layers)|Astral Plane| Neutral Evil [b]Othrys[/b]|Entropy|1st Layer of Tartarus|Astral Plane, River Styx, Cathrys| Evil Chaotics and Titans [b]Cathrys[/b]|Entropy|2nd Layer of Tartarus|Othrys, Minethys|Evil Chaotics and Titans [b]Minethys[/b]|Entropy|3rd Layer of Tartarus|Cathrys, Colothys|Evil Chaotics and Titans [b]Colothys[/b]|Entropy|4th Layer of Tartarus|Minethys, Porpathys| Evil Chaotics and Titans [b]Porphatys[/b]|Entropy|5th Layer of Tartarus| Colothys, Agathys|Evil Chaotics and Titans [b]Agathys[/b]|Entropy|6th Layer of Tartarus|Porphatys|Evil Chaotics and Titans |||| [color=#0000FF][b]Styx, River[/b][/color]|Entropy| |Conduit through Abyss, Avalas, Avernus, Gehenna, Hades, Nessus, Pandesmos, Phlegetos, Stygia, and Othrys|Undead, Forget water |||| [color=#FFBFFF][b]Limbo[/b][/color]|Entropy(neutral chaos)|Outer Planar Ring(1 layer)|No entry unless died somewhere (Inner or Outer Plane)|Atonement for Eternal Rest [color=#FFBFFF][b]Spirit World, The[/color][/b]|Special|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane/Prime Plane Ethengar only)|Chaotic—The Otherworld |||| [color=#808000][b]Arcadia[/color][/b]|Matter|Outer Planar Ring(3 layers )|Astral Plane, Concordant, 7 Heavens|Lawful Good [b]Nirvana[/b]|Time|1st Layer Arcadia|Astral Plane, Concordant, 7 Heavens|Faunus [b]Beastlands, The[/b]|Energy|2nd and 3rd Layer of Arcadia|1st layer Arcadia|Zirchev |||| [color=#FF4080][b]Concordant Opposition[/b][/color]|Thought|Outer Planar Ring|Astral Plane|True Neutrality |||| [color=#FF80FF][b]Limbus[/b][/color]|Entropy|Outer Planar Ring (5 layers)|Astral|Pure Chaotic [b]Gith (Slaad)[/b]|Entropy|st Layer of Limbus|Astral Plane, Yggdrasil, Concordant, Susanowo, Pandemonium|Gith, Slaad [b]Susanowo[/b]|Entropy|2nd Layer of Limbus| Gith, Agni |-- [b]Agni[/b]|Entropy|3rd Layer of Limbus|Susanowo|-- [b]Indra[/b]|Entropy|4th layer of Limbus|Agni, Indra|-- [b]Layer of Lost Gods[/b]| Entropy|5th Layer of Limbus|Indra|-- |||| [color=#4040FF][b]Nirvana[/b][/color]|Time|Outer Planar Ring|Astral Plane|Shiva, Modrons, Shang-Ti, Shang-Hai Ching, Anu |||| [color=#0080FF][b]Seven Heavens[/b][/color]|Matter|Outer Planar Ring(7 Layers)|Astral Plane|Lawful Good [b]Lunia(Silver)[/b]|Matter |1st and lowest layer of Seven Heavens|Astral Plane, Mercuria|-- [b]Mercuria (Gold)[/b]|Matter|2nd Layer of Seven Heavens|Lunia, Venya|Bahamut, Noble Fighters, Archons [b]Venya(Pearls)[/b]|Matter|3rd layer of Seven Heavens|Mercuria, Solania|Noble Fighters, Bahamut [b]Solania (Electrum)[/b]|Matter|4th layer of Seven Heavens|Venya, Mertion|Kagyar Dwarffather, Interplanar Pilgrims [b]Mertion (Platinum)[/b]|Matter|5th Layer of Seven Heavens|Solania, Jovar|Paladin’s, Archons=Holy Water Ocean [b]Jovar (Glimmering)[/b]|Matter|6th layer of Seven Heavens|Mertion, Chronias|Jovanan Archons [b]Chronias (Illuminated)[/b]|Matter|7th Layer of Seven Heavens|Jovar|-- |||| [color=#4040FF][b]Twin Paradises (Bytopia)[/color][/b]|Matter|Outer Planar Ring (2 Layers)|Astral Plane|Neutral Good [b]Dothion[/b]|Thought|Upper Layer Twin paradises|Astral Plane, Shurrock, Elysium, 7 Heavens |Animals [b]Shurrock[/b]|Thought|Lower Layer of Twin Paradises|Dothion, 7 Heavens, Elysium| Garl Glittergold |||| [b]Lake Thetys[/b]|Time|Inter Planar connection|Astral, Olympus|-- |||| [color=#408080][b]Draconian Cluster,The[/color][/b]|Matter|Free Outer Planar Cluster 3planes folded around another|Astral Plane|Immortal Dragons [b]Draconia[/b]| Matter|Center of the Draconian Cluster|Lunara, Solus, Sterne|The Great One [b]Lunara[/b]|Matter|Draconian Cluster, The|Astral Plane, Solus and Sterne, Draconia|Pearl [b]Solus[/b]|Matter|Draconian Cluster, The|Astral Plane,Sterne, Lunara, Draconia|Opal [b]Sterne[/b]|Matter|Draconian Cluster, The|Astral Plane, Solus, Lunara, Draconia|Diamond |||| [b]Alvarian[/b]|Energy |Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Mealiden Starwatcher [b]Arnak[/b]|Thought|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Noumena [b]Bag of Holding Spaces[/b]|Energy-Time|Tiny Free Outer Plane| Astral Plane and Magic Bag of Holding| these exist in many forms, and content [b]Brynn[/b]|Matter|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|-- [b]Canathia[/b]| Matter|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Valerias [b]Celestia[/b]|Energy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Razud [b]Ceticia[/b]|Time|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Protius [b]Chronopolis[/b]|Time|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Khoronus [b]Chronus[/b]|Time|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Jumpers [b]Citadel of Bronze[/b]|Thought |Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Halav [b]Cthonia[/b]|Entropy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Thanatos [b]Cyprisia[/b]|Energy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Alphatia [b]Draesten[/b]| Energy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane(near Draconian Cluster)|Energy Immortals.Draeden [b]Einion[/b]|Thought|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Diulanna [b]Eirysia[/b] |Energy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Eiryndul [b]Elysia[/b]|Time|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Petra [b]Entrem[/b]|Time|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|-- [b]Etoile[/b]|Energy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Rad [b]Everelen[/b]|Time|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Calitha Starbrow [b]Faerdinel[/b] |Thought|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane |Halfling Heroes [b]Gardarak[/b]|Matter|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Kagyar [b]Ge[/b]|Matter|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Djaea [b]Helius[/b] |Energy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Ixion [b]Hutaak[/b]|Energy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Pflarr [b]Iustare[/b]|Energy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Tarastia [b]Labyrinthos(Maze)[/b]|Thought-Matter|Free limited Outer Plane|Only through Maze spell|lost monsters/adventurers [b]Leugola[/b]|Entropy|Free Outer Plane |Astral Plane|Masauwu [b]Mirage[/b]|Thought|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|- [b]Mondara[/b]|Thought|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Asterius [b]Muse[/b]|Thought|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Notions [b]Necros[/b]|Entropy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Nyx [b]Nexus[/b]|Time|Corridor through Space and Time|waves itself through all Outer Planes|Chaotic [b]Opus[/b]|Energy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Tonals [b]Old Alphatia[/b]|Energy/Thought| Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Alphatians [b]Pandius[/b]|Special|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane (Prime Plane—Matera )| City of the Immortals [b]Pax[/b]|Thought|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Koryis [b]Plains of Steel[/b]|Time|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Vanya [b]Queball[/b]|Matter|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Earth Elemaster [b]Rathanak[/b]|Energy |Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Rathanos [b]Rouvenia[/b]|Time|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Ordana [b]Sauras[/b]|Matter|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Ka [b]Shelter[/b]|Matter-Time|Tiny temporary Free Outer Plane| Only through scroll of Shelter/spell of Rope Trick|varies [b]Skarda’s Mirror[/b]|Thought|Free Outer Plane|Closed Plane; access through Prime Plane Mirrors only|-- [b]Spithra[/b]|Thought|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Korotiku [b]Strobe[/b]|Energy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Flickers [b]Sybaria[/b]|Entropy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Talitha [b]Sylvania[/b]|Energy|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Ilsundal [b]Tellus[/b]|Matter|Free Outer Plane|Astral Plane|Terra |||| [b]Pits of Banishment[/b]|Entropy|Enclosed Outer Plane|Prime by Special Symbols from the Seven Realms|Prison of the Carnifex, undead beholders, Nightwalker, Black Hag.Closed By Immortal Might [color=#408000][b]Seven Realms, The[/b][/color] (7 colors)|Varies|7 Stacked Outer Planes|Gates to the Pits of Banishment|differs,Closed By Immortal Might [b]Rainbow Realm[/b] | Thought|7 stacked Outer Plane| Only Rainbow Henge Prime Plane| Nabumetis, Drolem, Quicksilver, Rainbow Knights, Sphinx [b]Red Realm[/b]|Matter-Energy|7 stacked Outer Plane| Only Rainbow Henge Prime Plane| Anator, Flame Wolf, Malkar, Kirekan, Red Dragon [b]White Realm[/b]|Thought-Energy|7 stacked Outer Plane| Only Rainbow Henge Prime Plane| Kerrisar, Mermen, White Dragons, Hounds, horses [b]Yellow Realm[/b]|Energy-Matter|7 stacked Outer Plane| Only Rainbow Henge Prime Plane| Morilon, Gold Dragons, Phoenix, Sollux, Hyperbius [b]Green Realm[/b]|Matter-Time|7 stacked Outer Plane| Only Rainbow Henge Prime Plane| Belothra, Elves, Gargantuan Treants, Malusites, Swan Maidens [b]Blue Realm[/b]|Thought-Energy|7 stacked Outer Plane| Only Rainbow Henge Prime Plane| Valeratros, Coroman, Sapphire Dragons, Sorabeth, Archons [b]Black Realm[/b]|Matter-Thought |7 stacked Outer Plane| Only Rainbow Henge Prime Plane| Silcharde, Gargantuan Basilisk, Ombiassa, Pythons, Black Dragons, Zagriona, |||| [b]Kryla[/b]|Matter|Free Cluster Outer Plane|Adjacent to Pyts and Rylum|-- [b]Rylum[/b]|Energy|Free Cluster Outer Plane |Adjacent to Kryla and Pyts|-- [b]Pyts[/b]|Entropy|Free Cluster Outer Plane|Astral Plane|-- |||| [b]Thorne[/b]|Entropy|Stacked 1st Outer Plane | Astral Plane, Prime Plane|Araneas and Phanaton [b]Chasm[/b]|Entropy|Stacked 2nd Outer Plane|Thorn|-- [b]Isle of Night[/b]|Entropy|Stacked 3rd Outer Plane|Chasm|--
A few remarks;
Limbo was mentioned twice and the descriptions differed greatly. The Bruce Heard version Limbo I kept its name, the version also used in AD&D2 became Limbus.
Limbo and the spirit realm I prefer to see as the same Plane, but other regions. As described here on Piazza earlier this is well possible. Yet I have both listed here seperately for those not thinking like that.

I hope this might be of some use :o
Last edited by Robin on Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Robin » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:39 pm

a bit long list, but hey...many Planes were mentioned.
Especially the acces to each plane was difficult to determine
And I may have forgotten some...I believe to remember Mazikee, but can't remember which book
I do remember the individual acces was difficult...maybe an Immortal adventure, have to check
Last edited by Robin on Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Robin » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:54 pm

Big Mac wrote:Did the 2nd Edition AD&D version of Mystara swap out Frank Mentzer's BECMI cosmology for the Great Wheel Cosmology? :?
As far as I have examined this matter in those days before I got homeless(I have a home now already for 4 years+ :D ) It seems that the TSR crew merged the version of Frank with only 4 elemental Planes and the Prime (thus dumped the quasielemental and others within the ethereal).
The Outer Ring created by AD&D1 &2 they kept intact and several of these Planes have had their interaction (even by mentioning only) with Mystara, as thus was infused in the mentzer cosmology. (it rapidly increased the number of Outer Planes Mystara had access to..(a good thing as this could hold the many immortals which each needed a home Plane.)
The Outer Planes created in basic D&D where more chaotic dispersed through the astral, in any shape or size. In the Gold box there is a sort of picture of this on page 4 of the DM book. As this is depicted in a 2 dimensional map, even more two dimensional than any other map before or later, (as it does not curve around the prime/elemental, like a sphere with the ethereal and the Astral making up the boundary.
This Chaos now can only be foud as free floating Outer Planes, some might stack or cluster (ike the Dragon Realm, or Thorn, The Isle of Dead), but these where not attached directly or indirectly to the Astral Boundary like the Ring Planes did.

as this is only one dimension, and there are more, these are laid on top of the others, like tghe pages of a book with on each book a picture of its inner and outer planes.
And this has come to be Mystara's Multiverse

One important remark (real Life); Dimensions can only be perceived from a higher dimension.
a point (1st dimension) can only be perceived from someone within the 2nd or higher.
a line (2nd dimension)can only be perceived from someone within the 3rd or higher.
An object (3rd dimension)can only be perceived from someone within the 4th or higher.
Time/movement (4th dimension)can only be perceived from someone within the 5th or higher.
The 5th dimension is perceived as 4th dimension for those within the 1st dimension...as thus opposing...as thus the Nightmare Dimension
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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by julius_cleaver » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:19 pm

As always Robin....Fletching away for the benefit of all. Both you and Havard have created some great material that would be foolish to ignore.

Havard, whatever I come up with eventually if will definitely take many aspects of what you have created into consideration. Your thoughts on the Endless Stair are quite similar to mine...
It's about as gothic as you can get with anthropomorphic beavers.

"You stumble into a spacious chamber with at least ten exits." The DM is a jerk. --Jeff Rients from Jeff's Gameblog

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Robin » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:46 pm

julius_cleaver wrote:As always Robin....Fletching away for the benefit of all. Both you and Havard have created some great material that would be foolish to ignore.
Thanx
Lol. :o :lol: ..first now I see Havard did similar ^_^ ...creating a List ;) ...
Maybe Havard can combine them... :|
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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by julius_cleaver » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:25 am

I'd like to use AutoCAD (Computer Aided Drafting) to make a 3D version...
It's about as gothic as you can get with anthropomorphic beavers.

"You stumble into a spacious chamber with at least ten exits." The DM is a jerk. --Jeff Rients from Jeff's Gameblog

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Robin » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:20 pm

julius_cleaver wrote:I'd like to use AutoCAD (Computer Aided Drafting) to make a 3D version...
I have the Whole Outer Planes Ring, the inner planes, and several other Outer planes, roaming in my head (yes my head has weird things in it, and abundantly, overly detailed, or with effects..I know I am weird :P ) floating pattern wise as thus. I would like to find an artist which could help me create a moving picture or miniature movie displaying them. Nice with a heavy voice like Morgan Freeman as explaining.
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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Havard » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:08 pm

Wow, that is a very impressive list Robin! As you noticed, I posted my own reference list here. I like that you included the names for homeplanes suggested by James Mishler. I am sure he would appreciate credits for that *hint* *hint* ;)

I guess the biggest difference between your list and mine is that you have included all of the AD&D planes in yours. I don't really mind having those planes around. In the BECMI cosmology the number of Outer Planes is unlimited. However, I feel that incorporating them would take the focus away from the planes that are truly unique to Mystara, so I am sticking to Mystara sources, though I have included references to some AD&D Mystara sourcebooks as well as the BECMI line this time around. I am not sure that was such a good idea though since it turns out there are even more AD&D planes in some of those books than I had realized so if I want to be consistent I would be better off relegating those to an appendix.

3D maps sounds awesome. I plan on including some more Outer Planes from my own list to future updates of the map in this thread.

-Havard

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Robin » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:46 pm

Havard wrote:Wow, that is a very impressive list Robin! As you noticed, I posted my own reference list here. I like that you included the names for homeplanes suggested by James Mishler. I am sure he would appreciate credits for that *hint* *hint* ;)

I guess the biggest difference between your list and mine is that you have included all of the AD&D planes in yours. I don't really mind having those planes around. In the BECMI cosmology the number of Outer Planes is unlimited. However, I feel that incorporating them would take the focus away from the planes that are truly unique to Mystara, so I am sticking to Mystara sources, though I have included references to some AD&D Mystara sourcebooks as well as the BECMI line this time around. I am not sure that was such a good idea though since it turns out there are even more AD&D planes in some of those books than I had realized so if I want to be consistent I would be better off relegating those to an appendix.

3D maps sounds awesome. I plan on including some more Outer Planes from my own list to future updates of the map in this thread.

-Havard
Thanx---yours too :lol: Two nerds on a roll :geek: :ugeek: lol
Added James's name (it was thus long ago I forgot that reference. :oops: Thus James ...thanx :lol:
I included indeed all the AD&D planes, (as especially with the later mystara AD&D2 references), most were mentioned or referred to in Mystara products(sayings like "going to Hell", "Way of Hades", "Gladsheim's Realms", Happy hunting grounds (i believe in Gaz14 atruaghin), etc. As thus many AD&D planes were implemented, but with clear "holes" in the Ring, as Limbo (limbus in my table) , concordant .., and a few more were not mentioned but did belong to the structure proposed in the AD&D2 rulebook were the new AD&D2 rules did refer too, hence I also added these.
The pure 100% D&D Planes could easily be implaced within this structure, as only the Ring Planes touch the Astral Border, and D&D planes were all described as somewhat further away, thus not connecting the Astral border. It all seemed logical.
The most tricky part was the research of how to get there...you don't know how much I needed to explore(read) to know. James's list was very useful in populating.
I like your column of sources added...hence I said "maybe merge these two tables somehow"
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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by robertneaves » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:13 pm

I always thought a map of the planes was defeating point that they're different planes of existence.

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Havard » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:42 pm

robertneaves wrote:I always thought a map of the planes was defeating point that they're different planes of existence.
I think I mentioned this in another of these threads. Diagram might be a better term than map. My main goal is actually just to visualize the planes instead of just making a list.

I suppose I could also have mapped out in detail how to get from one plane to the next, but that has not been the focus of these "maps" so far. :)

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by julius_cleaver » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:30 pm

Havard wrote:
*The Dreamlands...ot The Twilight Realm are the same thing IMC. Or I should say the terms are interchangeable...they denote the same thing.
By Twilight Realm you refer to "the Seven Realms" from M3 Twilight Calling? Or is it just your name for the Dreamlands? I like the name, but wasn't exactly sure what you were saying here.

Again, thanks for the feedback! :)

-Havard
Yes...Dreamlands & the Twilight Realm are interchangeable. The Twilight Realm has nothing to do with "The Seven Realms".
It's about as gothic as you can get with anthropomorphic beavers.

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Re: Mystara's Outer Planes (With Map) - Draft!

Post by Robin » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:36 pm

in my research on the Broken Lands and Aengmor/Oenkmar there is some additional information on page 40 within the adventure "Requiem for the Orcs" about Atzanteotl's pocket Universe in the Plane of Entropy. As both Plane of Entropy and Atzanteotl's realm are mentioned where sacrificed victims show up, I think they meant "The Sphere of Entropy "and "the Pocket Universe of Atzanteotl"...the first being the influence the other a limited outer plane.
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