Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Havard » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:34 pm

Another question: Some fans have suggested that Aelos could be another planet in Mystara's Solar System, sharing Mystara's orbit as a kind of "Counter Earth". What is the general opinion on this?

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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby ripvanwormer » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:40 pm

Havard wrote:Another question: Some fans have suggested that Aelos could be another planet in Mystara's Solar System, sharing Mystara's orbit as a kind of "Counter Earth". What is the general opinion on this?

-Havard


I like LoZompatore's take on Aelos; that Aelos is Mystara in the past.
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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Robin » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:56 pm

@ Rip...Your research on the Blackmoor names for starsigns was great and very useful :D , but however also incomplete :( ...do you have the missing starsigns somewhere, or other solutions?? :geek:

i'd prefer Aelos being Mystara's past too. there is much enough proof of it, to enable this.
and i believe to remember Garls, as ancient as they are, are still found on Mystara
and Bruce Heard made a nice adventure storyline with Oards in northern wildlands i remember
And Sean Meaney toohttp://pandius.com/oard_adv.html


I've added an old quote from the old TSR site I had copied/pasted on old diskettes, this was mentioning specifically Mystara planets.

Other Pandius posts interesting for this Mystara space post
Gravityhttp://www.pandius.com/gravity.html
Airhttp://www.pandius.com/air.html
Navigationhttp://www.pandius.com/navi.html
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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby ripvanwormer » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:53 am

Havard wrote:Note that Charon / Thanatoi, just like Mercury/Alphaksis come into existence with the destruction of Damocles.


The Immortal Set says that Charon is currently there ("at the time of this game setting," prior to the destruction of Damocles), but that "it will remain undiscovered until the solar system can be re-explored by use of technology, many thousands of years after the passing of the Age of Magic." Which suggests that the current inhabitants of Mystara don't know it exists, though I suppose he might just have meant "undiscovered by us in the present day."

This Charon isn't the same as Pluto's moon. While the fact that Pluto had a moon was known, the real solar system's Charon's name wasn't officially announced until January 1986, so it's probable that Frank Mentzer didn't know about it when he was designing the Immortal Set (published in June 1986). The real Charon is 753 miles in diameter (not that anyone knew that in 1986), while the Immortal Set's Charon is 5,320 miles in diameter. The Charon from the Immortal Set is most likely inspired by the "Planet X" predicted by Percival Lowell.

Chunks of Damocles are said to have become Mercury, Pluto, some of the moons of Jupiter and other planets, and the asteroids Eros, Amor (actually a class of asteroid), Albert, Apollo (also a category), Icarus, Adonis, and Hermes.

Robin wrote:@ Rip...Your research on the Blackmoor names for starsigns was great and very useful :D , but however also incomplete :( ...do you have the missing starsigns somewhere, or other solutions?? :geek:


The ones I mentioned are the only ones explicitly mentioned in Dave Arneson's Blackmoor that I've found. However, the thing they all have in common is that they're all the titles of deities. We could suppose the following other constellations might exist, then:

The Lord of Lights
The Lord of Lies
The Law-Giver
The Horselord
The Dark Queen
The Lord of Luck
The Great Dragon of the North
The Watchworks
The Starlight General
The Silvercloud
The Lord of Lords
The Law Keeper
The Withered Hand
The Redeemer
The Gray Dragon
The Biting North
The Black Death
The Thinker
The Heart of Darkness and Fire

I wouldn't assume that all of these constellations exist, but they might. I left out the dwarf, gnome, and elven pantheons.
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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Robin » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:51 am

Rip, you're awesome. :mrgreen: ..I can manage this. ;) Thanx I'll choose some from these and fill the list :geek: :shock: :ugeek: :o


Edit ; List altered. (resembled names (suggested image) with starsign . and found fitting ones. Thanx
Those I did NOT use, are also constelations but do NOT belong to the ring of astrology, not appear on the Starmap.
Best to assume these can be viewed on the opposite hemisphere or the Southern half of Mystara 3000BC.
Keep in mind that although Mystara was tilted by the Rain of Fire disaster, the celestial ring of repeating starsigns is not changed.(the yearly orbit was not altered only the planetary tilt. as thus the starsigns then passed through the northern AND southern hemisphere and (like Real Life) you could not see them all at once. The dominant sign then was that one in its apex. While in current (after 3000 BC etc) the signs rotate along the axis, maybe with a wobble thus dominance iof a sign is more trickier to determine. All signs are mostly visible together at once. The suggested wobble, and thus the highest spot from the horizon, could best be determined as the dominant sign. Maybe I'll make some maps explaining this... but first back to my Broken Lands project.


To the name of Pluto/Charon...that is the reason they used a named similar but slighly different; Chagas. to differentiate both forms,as can be seen in the explanations. they imagined a moon there. ..and reality proved it later to be treu. also that pluto is not a planet at all due its tilt, and retrogate orbit.
so keep it to mini planet.
Only 4 cultures remaining too do ;P
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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Havard » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:56 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Havard wrote:Note that Charon / Thanatoi, just like Mercury/Alphaksis come into existence with the destruction of Damocles.


The Immortal Set says that Charon is currently there ("at the time of this game setting," prior to the destruction of Damocles), but that "it will remain undiscovered until the solar system can be re-explored by use of technology, many thousands of years after the passing of the Age of Magic." Which suggests that the current inhabitants of Mystara don't know it exists, though I suppose he might just have meant "undiscovered by us in the present day."

This Charon isn't the same as Pluto's moon. While the fact that Pluto had a moon was known, the real solar system's Charon's name wasn't officially announced until January 1986, so it's probable that Frank Mentzer didn't know about it when he was designing the Immortal Set (published in June 1986). The real Charon is 753 miles in diameter (not that anyone knew that in 1986), while the Immortal Set's Charon is 5,320 miles in diameter. The Charon from the Immortal Set is most likely inspired by the "Planet X" predicted by Percival Lowell.

Chunks of Damocles are said to have become Mercury, Pluto, some of the moons of Jupiter and other planets, and the asteroids Eros, Amor (actually a class of asteroid), Albert, Apollo (also a category), Icarus, Adonis, and Hermes.



Brilliant Rip! I stand corrected on this one. I had no idea that Pluto's moon had not been discovered back then. It is amazing that Frank used the same name for his final planet by the way. I do like that Mystara's Charon is larger than Pluto's moon.

@Robin: I don't know how relevant Pluto's status as a planet is here. The fact that Pluto was mentioned in the Gold Box suggests to me that it is an important location in Mystara's solar system. We could probably add as many planetoids and asteroids as we want, but the ones mentioned in the Gold Box are probably the most important ones.

Re Aelos: I agree. It fits better with Zompatore's model. We will leave it out of this discussion.

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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Havard » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:27 pm

Okay, so how about these?

Image
(click to enlarge)

Image
(click to enlarge)

A few comments:
1) I decided to use the dates AC500 and AC1200 so that people can decide themselves when they want Damocles to blow up.
2) I decided that the Pyrithian Asteroid Field predate the destruction of Damocles. Damocles adds to the asteroid belt though.
3) I made Emerond another of Damocles' moons in line with Rip's idea for Alphaksis and Helae.
4) Big Rock, Crown Rock and the Three Sisters are described in the First Quest Boxed Set. The module actually suggest that they are a little bit closer to eachother, but I wanted to spread them out a bit. No specific distances are given so I felt I had some leeway. Three Sisters is the site of a tavern in space(!)

Anyone spot any mistake on these?

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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Robin » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:25 pm

Awesom maps Havard.

But There are some minor improvements possible.
A The Asteroid field is actually ON the gravitational line of Damocles. Just thinly spread...when Damocles finally destroys itself, this asteroid belt just become thicker. Like how you added Old Emerond to the belt. But keep in mind it is actually ON that line, instead between the lines.
B You chose Helea (Neptune) instead Thanatoi(Pluto/Charon) to be a former moon. I think you mixed them up accidently. The 3rd moon (nice idea instead of debris, which would work fine too) is the one hitting the original Charon (which may have been named Thanatoi before the impact as the difference was difficult to see), thus becoming Pluto/Thanatoi and the original Thanatoi/Chagas became the moon Charon/Chagas
C The asteroid belt fills up the Whole gravitational field, (thus the whole line, including Damocles...in fact Damocles---as a planet with moons---was part of the thinner asteroid belt, and its destruction merely made the belt thicker.
D One thing I would do different to the map is increase the orbital rings distance from eachother. Not only does this enable rings/moons to be added but it makes the map less crowded. and more realistic...as the distances do increase between the larger planets counting from the Asteroid Belt-Damocles Orbit.

Direct link to the Planet Tables http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16621&p=185598#p185598
That you named the Asteroid belt Pyrithian asteroids...perfect...i'll add it immediately.

to your comments
1 perfect
2 as canon/Real Life, logic and what I gave in the table...perfect
3 perfect...fits great, and leaves the moon intact (damaged, battered and bruised, and relocated) for surviving races...they would have suffered a Great Rain of Fire and Rocks in a swirling wave of destruction while the skies changed.)
4 There is indeed not very much information about these rocks. I'll add the Tavern to the information column in the table...Would it have enclosed quarters with air, an enclosed passable forcefield with trapped air, or its own (thin) atmosfear?
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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Havard » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:52 pm

Robin wrote:Awesom maps Havard.


Thanks! :)

A The Asteroid field is actually ON the gravitational line of Damocles. Just thinly spread...when Damocles finally destroys itself, this asteroid belt just become thicker. Like how you added Old Emerond to the belt. But keep in mind it is actually ON that line, instead between the lines.


Yes. I was actually going to remove the gravitational line, but it looked a bit weird when I did that. I will continue tweaking with it.

B You chose Helea (Neptune) instead Thanatoi(Pluto/Charon) to be a former moon. I think you mixed them up accidently. The 3rd moon (nice idea instead of debris, which would work fine too) is the one hitting the original Charon (which may have been named Thanatoi before the impact as the difference was difficult to see), thus becoming Pluto/Thanatoi and the original Thanatoi/Chagas became the moon Charon/Chagas


Looks like all these different names have caused more confusion. Neptune is actually Tarastiae. Here's the list I have been using:



C The asteroid belt fills up the Whole gravitational field, (thus the whole line, including Damocles...in fact Damocles---as a planet with moons---was part of the thinner asteroid belt, and its destruction merely made the belt thicker.


My impression was actually that according to Mentzer the asteroid field was created from Damocles. I chose to change that, but sure there could always be more Asteroids.

D One thing I would do different to the map is increase the orbital rings distance from eachother. Not only does this enable rings/moons to be added but it makes the map less crowded. and more realistic...as the distances do increase between the larger planets counting from the Asteroid Belt-Damocles Orbit.


I have thought about it. However the with the software I have been using it was pretty hard to make the rings line up as well as they did so it might take some time before I have another go at that. For now the rings simply refer to the order of the planets and the sizes etc are mainly just illustrative. I added satelites only for Mystara and Damocles, but there are tons of more that could be added. Perhaps further down the line :)

That you named the Asteroid belt Pyrithian asteroids...perfect...i'll add it immediately.


Yes, this is of course a reference to Bruce Heard's Emerond article.




3 perfect...fits great, and leaves the moon intact (damaged, battered and bruised, and relocated) for surviving races...they would have suffered a Great Rain of Fire and Rocks in a swirling wave of destruction while the skies changed.)


Yes, although perhaps in this case the Immortals might have been better prepared and helped out a bit. Or perhaps magic users on the moons themselves managed to create some defenses against the worst destruction?

4 There is indeed not very much information about these rocks. I'll add the Tavern to the information column in the table...Would it have enclosed quarters with air, an enclosed passable forcefield with trapped air, or its own (thin) atmosfear?


Something like this. The module glosses over most complications of space travel, but it seems pretty clear that there is breathable air bubbles around all of these asteroids. For the sake of game fun I would say that that is probably very common in Mystaraspace. :)

BTW see my table above for some more details on the asteroids.

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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby ripvanwormer » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:06 am

Jupiter should be Tarastiae, since Tarastia is patron of justice (like the god Jupiter).
Saturn should be Khoronis, since Khoronus is patron of time (like the god Saturn).
Neptune should be Proteanis, since Protius is patron of the ocean (like the god Neptune).

I suggest Asterius as the closest equivalent to Mercury, although Usamigaras would also work. Asterius would be better, though, since he's much more commonly known.

The closest Mystaran equivalent to Uranus is, of course, the vanished Immortal Ouranos. The Codex Immortalis suggests that Ouranos was killed by the patron of the neh-thalggu, Qywattz, and honestly associating one of the planets with the neh-thalggu would be pretty cool. I'd make it a world of clouds, darkness, and stars where neh-thalggu rule over the ruins of a fallen civilization of giants.
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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Havard » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:37 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Jupiter should be Tarastiae, since Tarastia is patron of justice (like the god Jupiter).
Saturn should be Khoronis, since Khoronus is patron of time (like the god Saturn).
Neptune should be Proteanis, since Protius is patron of the ocean (like the god Neptune).

I suggest Asterius as the closest equivalent to Mercury, although Usamigaras would also work. Asterius would be better, though, since he's much more commonly known.

The closest Mystaran equivalent to Uranus is, of course, the vanished Immortal Ouranos. The Codex Immortalis suggests that Ouranos was killed by the patron of the neh-thalggu, Qywattz, and honestly associating one of the planets with the neh-thalggu would be pretty cool. I'd make it a world of clouds, darkness, and stars where neh-thalggu rule over the ruins of a fallen civilization of giants.


I would be fine with these changes. They make sense. I will include them in my next update :)

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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Robin » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:12 pm

Havard wrote:
ripvanwormer wrote:Jupiter should be Tarastiae, since Tarastia is patron of justice (like the god Jupiter).
Saturn should be Khoronis, since Khoronus is patron of time (like the god Saturn).
Neptune should be Proteanis, since Protius is patron of the ocean (like the god Neptune).

I suggest Asterius as the closest equivalent to Mercury, although Usamigaras would also work. Asterius would be better, though, since he's much more commonly known.

The closest Mystaran equivalent to Uranus is, of course, the vanished Immortal Ouranos. The Codex Immortalis suggests that Ouranos was killed by the patron of the neh-thalggu, Qywattz, and honestly associating one of the planets with the neh-thalggu would be pretty cool. I'd make it a world of clouds, darkness, and stars where neh-thalggu rule over the ruins of a fallen civilization of giants.


I would be fine with these changes. They make sense. I will include them in my next update :)

-Havard

That was the answer I was waiting for ;P
I put them in to the Table.
However, with one exception Uranus can not be "home"to Neh-thalgu, as it is a huge gas giant, however, The largest moon of Saturn (Titan) is an Earth style planet, where nobody returned. Would it thus best to keep the name Kaum for Uranus(as everything else shifted with this nice idea) and to give that moon the name Ouranos??
Or rename Uranus Ouranos? and just place the Neh-thalgu on Titan.
Let me know so I can change it.
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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Robin » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:29 pm

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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Robin » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:31 pm

As promised, but I succeeded :mrgreen: . It was a hell of a job :o ...diving Through the various religious scripts(ancient Bible and other holy texts, Ancient Thora, Egyptian scriptures, etc :geek: ), dictionaries (Babylonian, Sumerian, Egyptian, Sanskrit :ugeek: ))...but I finally succeeded to find fitting names and translations for the other Starsigns :halo: . I added the writing styles and these are correct. :?
Where a capital is in any other place than the beginning of the word, that tone is spoken with an emphasis. ;)
This was all impossible without the help of the students of the religious library in my town. :lol:

http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16621&p=185723#p185723

Hope you enjoy this :P
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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Robin » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:39 pm

And now to Spillworld itself
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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Havard » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:24 pm

Robin (or someone else): Could you list all the planets and stars listed in CM7? My copy is a bit worn and I am having trouble making out some of the names.

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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Robin » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:03 pm

Havard wrote:Robin (or someone else): Could you list all the planets and stars listed in CM7? My copy is a bit worn and I am having trouble making out some of the names.

-Havard

Of course ;) I even have a digital copy here(with the location of Damocles etc listed too :mrgreen:
And the artisticly drawn names are indeed hard to read/decipher,...especially on an old worn copy. :?


http://6inchnails.deviantart.com/art/Mystara-Starmap-639845481
The only thing that does not seem to be right is the elemental bias on the seasons.
Winter is normally Earth/Matter (both in Games and RL).
Spring is normally Water/Time
Summer is correctly given as Fire?Energy
Autumn/Fall is Air/Thought


Further Is that I think that the starmap is the exact location of planets in the 5 important locations (N, E, S, W, zenith/top) to form a sort of astronomical referenxce...to the adventure Tree of Life to say...maybe this enables the Rainbow Bridge to form, or reanimates/awakens the Tree itself....
The Planets Thus move over the map.and underneath its location on the map is a small star...

I am currently wirking on an orbital map for the seasons and planetary motions, but the calculations (even when imicking RL system) is a bit tricckier than imagined.
Eventually I will succeed, but that will take a while...and then the mapping comes. ....finally :o :lol:
These are only about Venus :shock: :o :ugeek:
Image
http://blogstuff.barmonger.org/img/trail.png
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ee/8c/c6/ee8cc6a7e4926b9226f19f8854d0002c.jpg
So imagine doing the others AND invent those for a planet not existing in RL...
AAARCH......!!! :ugeek:

Mercury
Image
Mars
Image
Damocles
?????????????????????????????????????????????????
Jupiter
Image
Saturn
Image
Uranus
Image
Neptune
??????????????????????????????????????????
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Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

Postby Robin » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:40 pm

Jessica Trevino made some awesome Tarot Cards based on the Mystara Campaign setting
I could not let this go passing by all of you
http://stirvinolady.artstation.com/projects/keYxA
Though there are some variations with the known constelations (as depicted above or in CM7 Tree of Life starmaphttp://6inchnails.deviantart.com/art/Mystara-Starmap-639845481)
But the cards are truly nice
and she has more nice Mystara stuff on that webpage.
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