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Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:31 am
by ripvanwormer
Robin wrote:Planet names as canon CM7 Tree of Life Starmap
Sol
Sol's Sister (Mercurius)
Mym(Venus)
Mystara (Earth)
Telex(Mars)
Mertar (Planetary ring of debris ..still a planet at this time).
Both(Jupiter)
Zoar(Saturn)
Alith(Uranus)
Verdun(Neptune)
ring


I hadn't noticed there were planets on that map—good find. One thing, though: I'm sure that the letter you're reading as a "b" is actually a fancy uppercase "L" with the bottom doing a loop. None of the other stars or constellations begin with a lowercase letter, and the loop on the bottom isn't completely closed. Compare the first "L" in the constellation of the Lizard, for example, to the L in the planet Loth and the major star Lith. They're the same; it's not the constellation of the Bizard, after all.

The other thing is that there's no Mercury at this time in Mystara's solar system. According to the Immortal Set, Mercury forms later on after Damocles explodes.

So I read the stars as:

Constellations: The Griffon, The Eagle, The Manticore, The Warrior, The Chimera, The Centaur, Justice, the Lizard, the House, the Nymph, the Hydra, the Narwhal
Major stars: Mantis, Hunard, Celeb, Lith, Wyrm, Walinar, Coloth, Rhax, Sidon
Minor stars: (none named, but Alpha Centauri must be part of the constellation of the Centaur and Tau Ceti is probably part of the Narwhal)
Planets: Zoar, Loth, Telax, Alith, Mym

The planets, according to the Immortal Set, are Venus, Earth, Mars, Damocles, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Charon—nine planets in all, or eight other than Mystara. It's weird that CM7 has planets make up parts of constellations, since planets should move relative to the stars by definition. But Loth is part of the Warrior, so it makes sense to associate with m-Mars. Zoar is part of the Eagle, and eagles are associated with Jupiter. Centaurs are lustful, so maybe Telax is Venus. That leaves Mym, part of the Hydra, and Alith, part of the Manticore. Uranus wasn't discovered until 1781, so I'd guess the other named planets must be the closer orbs of Damocles and Saturn, with Uranus, Neptune, and Charon missing from the elven starmap. Since Damocles is named for a suspended sword that might fall at any moment, this might match best with the sting of a manticore, leaving Mym as Saturn.


Moderator Edit: Split from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16610&p=185527#p185527

-Havard

Re: [Spillworld] Long Lost Human Race

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:57 am
by Robin
ripvanwormer wrote:
Robin wrote:Planet names as canon CM7 Tree of Life Starmap
Sol
Sol's Sister (Mercurius)
Mym(Venus)
Mystara (Earth)
Telex(Mars)
Mertar (Planetary ring of debris ..still a planet at this time).
Both(Jupiter)
Zoar(Saturn)
Alith(Uranus)
Verdun(Neptune)
ring


I hadn't noticed there were planets on that map—good find. One thing, though: I'm sure that the letter you're reading as a "b" is actually a fancy uppercase "L" with the bottom doing a loop. None of the other stars or constellations begin with a lowercase letter, and the loop on the bottom isn't completely closed. Compare the first "L" in the constellation of the Lizard, for example, to the L in the planet Loth and the major star Lith. They're the same; it's not the constellation of the Bizard, after all.

The other thing is that there's no Mercury at this time in Mystara's solar system. According to the Immortal Set, Mercury forms later on after Damocles explodes.

So I read the stars as:

Constellations: The Griffon, The Eagle, The Manticore, The Warrior, The Chimera, The Centaur, Justice, the Lizard, the House, the Nymph, the Hydra, the Narwhal
Major stars: Mantis, Hunard, Celeb, Lith, Wyrm, Walinar, Coloth, Rhax, Sidon
Minor stars: (none named, but Alpha Centauri must be part of the constellation of the Centaur and Tau Ceti is probably part of the Narwhal)
Planets: Zoar, Loth, Telax, Alith, Mym

The planets, according to the Immortal Set, are Venus, Earth, Mars, Damocles, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Charon—nine planets in all, or eight other than Mystara. It's weird that CM7 has planets make up parts of constellations, since planets should move relative to the stars by definition. But Loth is part of the Warrior, so it makes sense to associate with m-Mars. Zoar is part of the Eagle, and eagles are associated with Jupiter. Centaurs are lustful, so maybe Telax is Venus. That leaves Mym, part of the Hydra, and Alith, part of the Manticore. Uranus wasn't discovered until 1781, so I'd guess the other named planets must be the closer orbs of Damocles and Saturn, with Uranus, Neptune, and Charon missing from the elven starmap. Since Damocles is named for a suspended sword that might fall at any moment, this might match best with the sting of a manticore, leaving Mym as Saturn.

You are most probably right with the B=L..thanx.
As to Mercury you are Right too..forgot to remove that one :|
Uranus is not discovered on RL earth, but Mystara's astronomy is much older and mire advanced, with much greater capabilities (imagine unlimited distance viewing with crystal balls--the targetting is the only problem ).
I do agree that CM7 using planets as constellations sounds strange, but in fact they don't. The starmap is the exact location of all celestial bodies in the sky at a specific moment (as dictated in the text). As thus I can only surmise the follow normal orbits. Also reflecting the astrological knowledge from the Poor Wizard Almanacs with Salamander star in the house of Manticore, etc).... I have tried (for an old adventure of myself) needing to create a stallar map with orbits to find the exact impact time/location and track of a meteor falling in NW Denagoth, (based on the CM7 starmap and Real World maps/orbits).But before releasing that, I must recombine the pages of that adventure, as all is mixed up within different binders not in order...(yes I am somewhat chaotic :o :evil: )
The rest I agree ;P
The Planets at that moment are thus;
Sol
nothing yet(Latyer Sol's Sister aka Mercurius)
Mym(Venus)
Mystara (Earth)
Telex(Mars)
Mertar/Damocles (Planetary ring of debris ..still a planet at this time).
Loth(Jupiter)
Zoar(Saturn)
Alith(Uranus)
Verdun(Neptune)
ring
[/quote]

Re: [Spillworld] Long Lost Human Race

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:25 am
by ripvanwormer
Robin wrote:Uranus is not discovered on RL earth, but Mystara's astronomy is much older and mire advanced, with much greater capabilities (imagine unlimited distance viewing with crystal balls--the targetting is the only problem ).


I agree that it's plausible the elves might know about the outer planets using magic, but since there are only five planets on the CM7 map, I think it makes sense that they're the five planets closest to Mystara.

The starmap is the exact location of all celestial bodies in the sky at a specific moment (as dictated in the text).


That makes sense, though it's still strange that the star map makes them part of the constellations.

Where did you find the names Mertar and Verdun?

Re: [Spillworld] Long Lost Human Race

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:45 am
by Robin
Mertar was named in one of the Mindflayer books, and as was suggested that in Mystara Damocles was home to the Mindflayers, it took that name as theirs.
Verdun was mentioned in some D&D Mystara book. It was in a line of text saying something like
"...the planet Verdun is again on the horizon. thus...."

On the map are three small red spots...these could be the missing planets. and a blueish spot which could be the Aircloud of Spill world
http://6inchnails.deviantart.com/art/Mystara-Starmap-639845481

I have to make a map reflecting the planetary orbits as seen from Mystara, check the following links.
Mars orbit from earthttp://i.stack.imgur.com/6cAt2.gif
mars venus orbit (8 years)as seen from earth https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/6f/95/7d/6f957dda3516b018eb96bf11fdd3f3c0.jpg
http://blog.barmonger.org/2011/01/planets-of-our-solar-system.html

Image
The planetarium simulation in the image below shows the concentration of the planetary orbits, as seen from Earth, to the ecliptic
http://ensign.editme.com/t43dances


There are already some studies on Mystara space
Lozompatore on Zodiac http://www.pandius.com/zodmoons.html
Havard on Mystara Space https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/20/07/63/200763d6a5b6ae90ba5dbbb73349d41d.jpg
Havard used different names...lets assume these were the names the Blackmoorians used...(as Havard being the Blackmoor expert, this seems fitting best). The CM7 names used canon are probably pure elvish, but as the rest of the map is translated it is best to assume these areused now by the main population
I do not think Spillworld is another planet, the description in Dawn of the Emperors gives much more reason to place it somewhere much further away, beyond the planetary system of Mystara...Probably more a new system on its own, but nearby enough to see it from Mystara. (I assumed this by 6 lightyears distance in my thought rumble with captain Allbright flying 3 years at half lightspeed)
Mystara Zodiac Constellation Map by StirvinoLady http://stirvinolady.deviantart.com/art/Mystara-Zodiac-Constellation-Map-568480482

Re: Mystara's Solar System

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:49 am
by ripvanwormer
Robin wrote:Havard on Mystara Space https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/20/07/63/200763d6a5b6ae90ba5dbbb73349d41d.jpg
Havard used different names...lets assume these were the names the Blackmoorians used...(as Havard being the Blackmoor expert, this seems fitting best).


The only problem with that is that some of the Immortals that Havard named the planets after didn't exist yet in the Blackmoor era. Tarastia ascended circa 2330 BC and Vanya circa 380 BC, so their respective planets must have had other names in Blackmoor's heyday. Khoronus was recently ascended then and still comparatively minor, so I named b-Saturn after the earlier Blackmoor god of time, Temrin, who was slain by Thanatos long ago. It might have been called Thanatos after that, which fits with the symbolism of the Black Realm in M3 Twilight Calling.

One idea is that the names on Havard's map are the Thyatian names of the planets, while the names from CM7 are the Elven names.

Re: Mystara's Solar System

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:14 am
by Havard
ripvanwormer wrote:
Robin wrote:Havard on Mystara Space https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/20/07/63/200763d6a5b6ae90ba5dbbb73349d41d.jpg
Havard used different names...lets assume these were the names the Blackmoorians used...(as Havard being the Blackmoor expert, this seems fitting best).


The only problem with that is that some of the Immortals that Havard named the planets after didn't exist yet in the Blackmoor era. Tarastia ascended circa 2330 BC and Vanya circa 380 BC, so their respective planets must have had other names in Blackmoor's heyday. Khoronus was recently ascended then and still comparatively minor, so I named b-Saturn after the earlier Blackmoor god of time, Temrin, who was slain by Thanatos long ago. It might have been called Thanatos after that, which fits with the symbolism of the Black Realm in M3 Twilight Calling.


For reference:
Image

Indeed. When I made the map I did not have Blackmoor in mind. I guess I sort of invented those names, but I simply modified names that were already in full use by the Mystara fandom. I always thought using the names of the Immortals was somewhat problematic because you would have one name meaning two different things (a planet and an Immortal) which could cause some confusion. I did not realize CM7 listed planet names at the time so that is why I did not use those.

One idea is that the names on Havard's map are the Thyatian names of the planets, while the names from CM7 are the Elven names.


I think that is a great sollution. Another is that perhaps different astronomers of the Known World have not really agreed on names for the planets yet, so there are different names being tossed around by scholars even within the same country.

-Havard
I think that is a possibility

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:52 pm
by Robin
@ Havard...& Rip.. that's indeed the best solution. being Thyatian Names. As thus there will be The known Elvish (commonly used and most complete 85%), Alphatian (90% complete, but originally based on Elven, expanded from there), Old Herathian/Nimmurian/Azcan (Old and outdated but for that era 75% complete), Old Milenian/Nithian (Old and outdated, but 50% complete, but the interest lay more in Starsystems/signs& comets than planets..that knowledge supercedes even today mystara Knowledge) ...of these old cultures names are still used, although the knowledge decreased (especially in the Hollow World to near 0%). I suspect Hule and Sind having Sign, and some planets named, but nothing more...as thus they are aware of the stars, and any change could be seen as a bad omen (like the meteor 1006 AC did). Further it is typical that near any culture will have their names for signs(although these can be translated and often mean the same, there are those having different names and using different signs), but are often unaware of most planets (seeing them as stars; example Venus is in RL still called the Morning star).

The one thing that does not seem to fit ; is using Spill World as a single planet further away.
As the desciption In Dawn of the emperors, seems more a Cloud of air, and multiple palanetary objects within, and much further away.

btw off topic; the Title of this "gazettteer" seems to hint at standing on the brink of the destruction/falling apart of this nation...ddid anybody notice this?

One other thing is we still need Blackmoor names...so Havard ...wink wink :halo: :mrgreen: ...?
Best to name these upon Old KIngs and other Important Individuals of that era and indeed not on Immortals. Although concepts like Heaven and hel, war and peace might also be logical

One final flaw on your otherwise very nice map Havard (otherwise I would not have pointed to it)..is the lack of one name.
The Planets Helea and Thanatoi are 2 names, but there are 3 planets here.
I think Helea being the innermost, an unnamed one, and Thanatoi being Pluto. Or...is it Helea, Thanatoi, unnamed one?

For those who think where the F*&^ they are talking about...here the Quote from the D&D Gold box DM booklet page 5-6;
Home System
For convenience, the star and other bodies of the solar system that contains the PC homeworld are essentially identical to that with which we are familiar. We assume that one moon orbits the earth, though you may prefer to add others. However, we chose one because of its pervasive influence on our history. According to some, the lunar cycle may have affected man both physically and mentally. It has certainly had widespread effects on the measurement of time, the agricultural and marine cycles, and other aspects of our world. So instead of reexamining all aspects of human life, and possibly changing them into details too alien to entertain us as a game form, we maintain the use of a single, familiar moon. We also assume that most of the same planets exist. Three noteworthy exceptions are mentioned below, followed by a brief chart of the mass and position of each body of the home system.
A. A planet lies between Mars and Jupiter, in the area we now call the asteroid belt. If the DM desires, it may be the home of an advanced civilization. But this planet will be destroyed in the future—possibly in a few years, or perhaps in a few thousand; possibly by natural means, or perhaps by the actions of its residents. Its remains will form a hazardous region of floating debris, and large pieces will swing about the sun in collision-prone orbits for millions of years.For these and other reasons, let us call this doomed planet Damocles.
B. At the time of this game setting, the bodies now called Mercury and Pluto do not exist. When Damocles is destroyed, the two largest pieces will fly in opposite directions. The one heading toward the sun will be caught in an unusual orbit, and will be later known as Mercury. The other will almost escape the solar system entirely, but after passing nearby Uranus and Neptune it will also end up in orbit, to be later called Pluto.
Some large chunks of Damocles will be captured by gravity, becoming the infamous "retrograde moons" (which rotate in a direction opposite that of the other bodies of the solar system) of Jupiter and other planets. And many pieces will become asteroids and comets with elliptical solar orbits, the flying shrapnel now called Eros, Amor, Albert, Apollo, Icarus, Adonis, and Hermes (listed in order of size).
C. Beyond the orbit of Neptune lies the tenth planet, called Charon. It is slightly larger than Mars. Its location is accurate to the method of prediction known as Bode's Relation, but it will remain undiscovered until the solar system can be re-explored by use of technology, many thousands of years after the passing of the Age of Magic.

The Galaxy
So little is known about the nature of the "Milky Way," the galactic home of humanity, that the DM may add details with great freedom. The galaxy is a large thin disc, 100,000 light years* (LY) across, with a central node that is 20,000 LY thick. The outer portions taper slowly, averaging 2,000-3,000 LY in thickness. The galaxy contains 125 billion stars, but only 125 million earthlike planets. Only 125,000 have produced intelligent life forms, and only about 125 of the races are able to use magic and/or technology to control their own destinies.
The stars closest to man's are (to use our modern names for them) Alpha Centauri (4.3 LY), Sirius (8.6 LY), Epsilon Eridani (10.7 LY), Procyon (11 LY), 61 Cygni (11.1 LY), Tau Ceti (11.2 LY), and Altair (15.7 LY). It may be noteworthy that Centauri, Sirius, Procyon, and Cygni are all double star systems. The closest civilization able to use magic (counting only those outside the home system of humanity) is on several planets orbiting Epsilon Eridani.
The home system of man is far removed from the galactic hub, hidden among many other stars in one of its several great arms.Life forms similar to or compatible with humankind are only common in remote areas of this sort. The stars and systems of the central hub of the galaxy are much closer together, and would thus seem to have a greater chance of interaction between different life forms (and a corresponding greater theoretical chance of housing a galactic network or empire). However, the amount of hazardous radiation and incidence of stellar collisions are also correspondingly higher for those in the hub. It is much safer, albeit much quieter and lonelier, out in the sparsely settled backwaters of the galactic mass.
* One light-year (LY) is 5,875,000,000,000 miles.


Edit 18-10; added Gold box quote
My personal opinion is that point C in the quote is a bogus restriction...As with Bruce Heards introduction (and Spelljammer) of magic based spacecrafs and space fahring, this location could/would/will be discovered even in the so-called magic era.
Another disturbing part of this quote is; The magic era...as if magic will totally dissapear, being replaced by technology....As suggested here on Piazzahttp://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16581, this is not the case. Magic does the same as technology but only in a different way. and the existence of magic supresses actually the need for various technologies to be developed...Who needs a printing press when a spell can copy scriptures immediately...?

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:48 pm
by Robin
I dug deep into my sources, and found this; (Source; an Old D&D forum)
Mystara Planetary System


Havard's names added to it.Ripvanwormer's tips added.
As The DotE suggest Spillworld being a seperate multiplanet location, I did not add these to the list, as they do NOT belong to the Mystara Planetary system.
The names in Color are Alphatian additions, more probably not known to other cultures but at best,Old Blackmoor and maybe Old Nimmur, Azca, Herath
After some thought I think the alphatians would initially use the most prominent Galactic names, thus the elvish names, and expand from their.
Their was no CM7 Elvish name for the to all former Mystarans obvious visible planet of Damocles, So I translated this (Dark Companion) in Elvish which became Dimas or Deimas.

I searched and found my old diskettes (yes iI still have them :ugeek: ) this succesfully kept copy of text about Mystara's Solar system from the Old TSR site. My personal opinions are added in blue

Gas typeCelestial body . A massive planet. They are most commonly composed primarily of 'gas' (hydrogen and helium) or 'ices' (volatiles such as water, methane, and ammonia), but also have a much smaller core composed primarily of compressed rock and metals from impact sources. Regardless of their bulk compositions, giant planets normally have thick atmospheres of hydrogen and helium.
Earth Type celestial Bodies have an Atmosphere of some kind and are capable of sustaining some form of life, most have also some kind of access to Magic. Only a few are known to have life on it .This last section was probably base on Planet Knowledge in Real Lufe when this was written. Today scientists think most earth type bodies have a fair to large change on life. But as long this is not proven, low life is thought to be more available than animal, let alone sentient life
Moon Type celestial bodies do not have an Atmosphere capable of sustaining life, and most are devoid of any form of life. They are typically surface damaged by a multitude of craters. (these can have—often magical created or sustained) pockets of atmosphere in or under the surface.
Rock Typecelestial bodies , rarely have an Atmosphere of any kind and are mostly the result of some celestial body destroyed or belong to the comet belt, where remaining creation debris resides. They are always irregular of shape, often somewhat cylindrical or roughly ball -shaped. Those large enough will be damaged by craters. Some can have ruins of buildings on them, remaining of their former Planetarian origin.
Damocles, it's civilization’s technology bore a striking resemblance to original Blackmoor's, exploded, in 1000AC. A war with extra-terrestial Mindflayers is suggested. It's fragments formed the Asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, while the several pieces shoot off and became new celestial bodies. The asteroid belt is meanwhile probven to be remnants of the creation of the planetary system, its total mass would supercede any existing material planet and even Neptune or Uranus in size. As this it can be best explained as Damocles sections and debris and dust were added to the Asteroid belt. The Three Sisters, Big Roc and Crown Rock are larger Rocks with their own orbit, also belonging to the same prime matter as the Asteroid belt and the Oort cloud
One gigantic piece or Damocles moon was hurled of towards the sun, vegetation completely burned away, it almost impacted within the sun. but it settled in a relative close orbit, becoming the closest celestial body of the solar system. It was named the Sol’s Sister during it’s fiery burning glow, which will slowly diminish in the upcoming centuries or millennia.
Another piece, first flew far out and crashed into Chagas, destroying it. With all the smaller and larger debris tagging along, it was caught in the gravitational pull of the sun, and finally took orbit. Charon (or better what remained of Chagas) fell to orbit around the gravitational pull of what became Pluto. Most of the other debris ended up in the comet belt or the asteroid belt.
Some pieces will fly around eternally and became Comets, until they will take impact on some celestial body. Other pieces become the gas giants' retrograde moons, or added themselves to the core and rings of debris of the four Gas giant planets.
Damocles’ destruction had great astrological influences during the Great Alphatian /Glantrian /Hulean /Thyatian war of 1005-1009AC, and one of the pieces crashed into Mystara, forming the Great Crater. Others caused great local destruction in areas they took impact in. Examples, Denagoth(this leads to my special adventure--when recovered and restored i'll post it), Bellisaria, Skothar.


Edits 14-10+17-10..Some minor changes By Havard Advice (see Below).
Edit 17-10; added old Quote from TSR site. Author unknown. Date approximately 1990-1995
Edit 18-10; added info from Havard see below.
Edit; 21-10 added changes by Rip & Havard
Edit; 22-10 added atmosphere knowledge
Edit; 23-10 element dominance flaws removed

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:04 pm
by Robin
One final remark
When Damocles exploded, What would Mystarans think of this clearly visible phenomenon. Would it prophecy the Wrath of the Immortals, or other dark dangerous stuf, like an Apocalyps...if so in many towns and villagers doomssayers would have been available, conspiracies run wild and other things.

And then another thing; Damocles held an evolved civilization (of Mindflayers was said) which for some reason exploded. Suggested that they had an internal war, or external (Who??) or used some device/spell/technique even more destructive than the Blackmoor explosion in 3000BC..

The meteors falling down on Mystara (amongst others) and the astronomical changes will certainly have a great impact (literally and figurly speaking).

I must certainly dig up and restore my old adventure explaining some of this/based on this

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:49 pm
by Havard
Nice list!

A few comments:

1) Crown Rock, The Three Sisters and Big Rock are asteroids detailed in the First Quest Boxed Set. I would not link these to the destruction of Damocles. In fact I have plans to develop at least one of them for the Blackmoor Era :)

2) Your label "Planetoids" I assume refers to what the Gold Box called the Asteroid Belt. I would add in the comments that this is the home of the Pyrithians and Emerondians.

3) The time of Damocles' destruction. One fan idea is to somehow link this to the Asteroid crashing into Glantri/Darokin during WotI. Looking back, I am not sure that is such a good idea. If this planet's destuction happened in AC1000 you would have one destroyed planet and in addition the planets created from this destruction will not yet have had a chance to stablize without major Immortal influence even by the PWA era. This means loosing alot of adventure locations and not gaining anything from it. So I would either push the destruction of Damocles back, or perhaps better still, just keep Damocles around.

4) Ripvanwormer suggested in another thread, why not keep both Damocles and the minor planets created from its destruction? That would give you an even bigger playground. I think it is a good point even if contradicts all versions of canon :)

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:20 pm
by Robin
Thanx

1) Thanx i did not know these otherwise..Have to check for size. but I change them to Asteroid rocks (from the beginning of the Planetary system)
2) Missed these Thanx...change it
3) The Time seems correct though, as calculating the different speeds of rock , it would be possible for some of these hitting Mystara, Myoshima and Matera .Also...you mention "without immortal influence"...this is precisely some job new immortals could be ordered to do...bring rapid stability to the disaster. An Immortal Quest on itself with some Space/void monsters, released prey/survivors of Mindflayers, and even researching the reason of the disaster (by short time travel a few years back).
By letting Immortals cleaning up the mess (plus various monsters finding easy food/energy/or whatever remains).

As can be seen in the table, there are indeed areas which are affected later.

4) I prefer Damocles being destroyed (not only this will give much material spread out (giving adventures on their own), but it removes a large population of Mindflayers which other wise would have decimated Mystara population rapidly when discovered (Which is in fact a clear a reason for several Immortals to enable the destruction to happen ). The few Mindflayers who arrived on Mystara before the disaster or locked in solid time, will have near to none such effect, although bring more adventures on their Own (see Ilithiad series 1-2 , but alter these to Mystara and use magic abilities instead Psionics as explained in these, chapter 3 is more backwards in time, on Damocles, and needs some more tweaking to fit)..

Have you also read My questions in the post before the table? these would be helpful. ;)

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:41 pm
by ripvanwormer
Robin wrote:One other thing is we still need Blackmoor names...


I named them in this thread, after the gods in the ZGG Blackmoor pantheon.

ripvanwormer wrote:The Sun. The system's primary, also perhaps known as Sollus.
Phellia. 67 million miles from the primary.
Terra. 93 million miles from the primary. Blackmoor is a nation on this world.
Henrin, the red planet. 141 million miles from the primary. Known as Zugzul to the Afridhi.
Hersh. 257 million miles from the primary.
Odir, a gas giant. 484 million miles from the primary.
Temrin, more commonly known as Thanatos in modern times. 887 million miles from the primary.
Hak. 1,783 million miles from the primary.
Mwajin, 3,230 million miles from the primary.
Hella, 7,105 million miles from the primary.


I like Giampaolo Agosta's version of Damocles.

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:12 pm
by Robin
Perfect Rip...;)

One question Though...Temrin aka Saturn you say is also named Thanatos in Modern Times...which Modern times you point at? Nithian? that would be very fitting namely. Because The Egyptians also called Saturn the Death Planet naming it after their God of Death and the Greek copied this to their language/gods...
If so, we could by following Greek for Milenians and reasearch the Egypt come to know the other names too. ;)
http://www.weasner.com/etx/fun/2008/little/Names_of_the_Planets.htm


- ;this means unknown to that culture
The Nithians (like RL Egyptians) did not know of Saturn, but suggested it.
Current name (formerly unknown)

Edit; Added Ochalean names, and after deduction found names for Damocles (Translations in Brown
2nd Edit; Inserted Missing name for Neptune and Pluto/Chagas as per Havard(see below)

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:26 pm
by ripvanwormer
By modern times I meant during the Blackmoor era, circa 4000-3000 BC. Misleading, I know. Thanatos is supposed to have murdered Temrin long before that.

The Nithians might well have called m-Saturn "Thanatos," though.

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:33 pm
by Robin
ripvanwormer wrote:By modern times I meant during the Blackmoor era, circa 4000-3000 BC. Misleading, I know.

hrmmm. ;(
Ok...;)
anyway...I came to these others
Only needing Herathian, Azcan, Nimmurian, Hule/Sind,
If following the link (http://www.weasner.com/etx/fun/2008/little/Names_of_the_Planets.htm)
Nimmurian = Sumerian, Herathian= Babylonian, Former and current Sind/Hule=Sanskrit.

We still have Question Marks for Damocles for a planet on that location must have been known/named by these cultures.
RL;
Actually, with clear dark skies, seven planets are visible to the unaided eye if you know where to look, but Uranus and Neptune are so faint that they are easily missed among the stars.

Following this on Mystara with Damocles must be eight planets.


Btw the link Giampaolo Agosta's version of Damocles you gave about is awesome , though seemingly conflicting with the mindflayers on Damocles, but with some tweeking would fit.

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:46 pm
by Robin
One important note to the Starsigns according to CM7 map and the Planets, from an reknown astonomer friend of mine.

He said that if indeed according Poor Wizard Almanacs thee is spoken about "Star of...(starsign)".
That means that according to this that at least some starsigns have a specific star assigned to that system
Typically when a conjunction comes to be (like a planet standing Infront of a star) the star is actually superceded by the Planet.
This explains that although it seems that the planets are part of a specific starsign, but in fact stand in front of the star as seen from Mystara.
When this happens with multoiple stars at the same moment, cultures would assign special meaning/effects to such very very rare happenings.
As CM7 is an adventure with several special happenings (Rainbow bridge, moving of Tree of Life) this could all be based on the coming and going of the planets on these momentous locations.
As thus the starsigns Do hold also a star where on that map now a planet is given

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:02 pm
by AllanP
Loving the Spillworld and Mystara Solar System topis. Great work people!!!

Can we expect to see the outcome of these discussions as content for a potential future issue of Threshold Magazine devoted to "MystaraSpace" as its theme ?

Has anyone ever done the Mystara system as per Traveller, or had a Traveller campaign that sent its players into the Mystara system?

regards,

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:49 pm
by Robin
AllanP wrote:Loving the Spillworld and Mystara Solar System topis. Great work people!!!

Can we expect to see the outcome of these discussions as content for a potential future issue of Threshold Magazine devoted to "MystaraSpace" as its theme ?

Has anyone ever done the Mystara system as per Traveller, or had a Traveller campaign that sent its players into the Mystara system?

regards,


In my opinion pure OK ;)
I try to make a similar table for the Star Signs. But That is a bit trickier.I can simply translate the same name into that RL similar language, or mimic known similar Starsings from that culture in RL

One interesting creature which could exist in the Oort cloud and the Asteroid belt is the Astereater from Spell jammer. Here with Mystara D&D statistics
Image This picture seems to imply the creature is very large, able to swallow a vessel but in fact it is not . Here it is just on the foreground. The D&D size is 8-10 yards diameter.


In general, Beholders and Beholder-kin are a very intelligent (and conceited) lot. Which is precisely why all of them deny any relation to the astereater. Though technically a Beholder-kin, the astereater has none of the intelligence or magical abilities its cousins possess. In appearance, the astereater resembles a large Beholder (minus the eye stalks) with one other major difference: The skin of the creature is virtually identical – in appearance and consistency – to rock. Like the Beholder, astereaters have a large, central eye and a large mouth filled with pointed teeth.
Astereaters speak their own language, which consists of very few words. They rarely hold a conversation with anything.
Combat: The rock-like skin of the astereater protects it very well. When its eye and mouth are shut, the creature is virtually impervious to any but very powerful or magical attacks (8th level or higher).The rock-like body of an astereater is very sturdy but for some reason, it still has got no magic resistance.
The astereater’s normal method of attack is to hide at the edge of an asteroid field and wait for passers-by to wander too close. It attacks using its huge mouth. A normal hit inflicts 2d4 points of damage, but any attack roll that exceeds the number needed by 5 or more means the astereater has swallowed its prey whole (obviously this doesn’t apply if the opponent is larger than the astereater). For example, if an astereater needs an attack roll of 9 or better to hit, and the roll is 14 or greater, then the victim is swallowed whole.
Anyone inside the belly of an astereater receives 1d6 points of damage per round from the powerful digestive acids found there. The victim may attack the astereater only if he held a small-sized weapon prior to being swallowed. Treat the interior of the astereater as AC 5(AV4). If the trapped person manages to inflict 12 points of damage to the creature’s stomach, he is expelled from the monster. The astereater cannot attack if it has someone in its stomach.
With its eye and mouth shut, the astereater is almost identical to an asteroid in appearance. At distances of 30 feet or less, the astereater is 50% likely to be mistaken for an asteroid. At distances greater than 30 feet, it is indistinguishable from an asteroid. Since the astereater is too slow to retreat from combat, it chooses its opponents carefully before revealing itself and attacking.
Habitat/Society: Like all Beholder-kin, astereaters are hateful and cruel. They cooperate neither with each other or anyone else unless it is of great benefit to themselves.
Astereaters hoard no treasure as they have no need for such trifles. However, in the bellies of these creatures (particularly older ones) there is usually a fair amount of incidental treasure that the creature cannot digest. In older astereaters it is common to find dozens of coins, various weapons, useless metal odds and ends, and possibly some magical items and potions (the astereater cannot digest glass or ceramic vials either).
An extremely rare but notable exception to the normal solitude of the astereaters is their occasional association with small groups of giff. It has been observed that astereaters sometimes act as leaders of giff platoons. Because of the militaristic nature of the giff and their aversion to serve anyone but their own kind, a giff platoon serving under an astereater is typically no larger than 10 giff; the association is generally little more than enslavement. It has been observed that this usually happens when an astereater encounters a giff mercenary platoon that is weak from battle and low in numbers. In this case, the astereater has little trouble domineering the mercenaries. It is unknown why the creatures choose giff as their slaves. Perhaps it is due to the giffs’ natural penchant for servitude.
As a rule, Beholders are a vicious species, holding great wars of extermination among their own kind. Whole communities of Beholders are casually destroyed as a matter of course. But the hatred of the Beholder race is greater still when directed toward astereaters. Beholders see astereaters as large blots against them and they stop at nothing to destroy what they consider to be vile errors of creation.
Ecology: Astereaters are carnivores that readily eat the flesh of any creature. They seem to prefer sentient species, especially humans and elves. Because of their extreme natural protection, they have no natural enemies but intelligent creatures hunt astereaters for the treasure they may hold in their stomachs.This abomination is a great boulder-like Beholder-kin without eyes. Apart from that (and a ton of hit dice), the astereater is pretty normal. It doesn't collect any treasure, but may have leftovers from former meals in its stomache, as it won't digest gold, glass or similar materials. Nice. Random astereater stomache loot can lead to all kinds of further adventures. It's e member of the beholder family, though other beholders or beholder-kin tend to deny the relation due to the fact that the astereater hasn't got "intelligence or magical abilities its cousins possess" (shouldn't it be "anti-magical abilities?"). So the astereater is the embarassing relative who's never invited to the family Christmas party. Anyway, the astereaters have their own language, but it seems to be rather simple and consits only of a few words.

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:19 pm
by ripvanwormer
Havard wrote:4) Ripvanwormer suggested in another thread, why not keep both Damocles and the minor planets created from its destruction? That would give you an even bigger playground. I think it is a good point even if contradicts all versions of canon :)


I don't recall that thread, but one solution might be to include Pluto, Mercury, and major asteroids like Ceres as moons of Damocles. When Damocles is destroyed, those moons could become planets (or dwarf planets) in their own right.

Another solution might be that the inhabitants of Damocles used magic (or the aid of friendly Immortals) to keep some of their settlements intact even after their planet falls apart, perhaps even as much as Alphatia remained intact when it emerged in the Hollow World.

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:26 pm
by Robin
That was My idea too ;)
The Mindflayers could have used solid time as per illithiad adventures to let some of their own escape death.
The Pachydermions would die, but some have settled on Mystara AND Myoshima/Patera.
Some of the Pyrithians and Emerondians saved themselves on the Asteroid Belt rocks and planetoids by use of magic or settling there before the disaster, as Havard suggested above.

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:50 pm
by Robin
Star Signs



Thyatian names as per CM7 and Poor Wizard Almanacs. The Problem is they use different names on some signs.
Keep also in mind that the CM7 starmap reveals not the positions of the starsigns in the different months, the whole starmap rotates within. and I assume that the sign of that month is the one on the Horizon... However, even the order of the PWA names is different from CM7. As starsigns do not shift their positions between themselves, it can only be assumed the Thytians made (again) several flaws in their translations. Or their must be some other reason why a star sign belongs to a specific month.
http://6inchnails.deviantart.com/art/Mystara-Starmap-639845481
Image
The runes on the starmap are Dwarven Runes, scribed in the English/Thyatian tongue ...making it even a bit more confusing..the names of each month might be treu translated elvish versions, but must thus be translated in elvish...harrump :o
But even then the starsigns will follow the same order of movement and thus placement along the calender.
As thus we must assume the Thyatians see another image in the same signs (using other lines between the stars) and thus may have similar names (from elven heritage presumably) but actually different in using for each sign.
Ths the reason Both the CM7 Elven and Thyatian have a warrior sign, but use a different location/sign/season.
Image
Elven/Alphatian is the Thyatian words translated in Elvish(https://www.elfdict.com) also used by the Alphatians
Image
Blackmoor as per Ripvanwormer's research http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16515#p185498
Image
Nithia as per Middle egyptian Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_calendar(seemed best fitting with a clear nithian feel ) Akhet = Winter, Peret = Summer, Shemu = Flooding. Nithians(like Egyptians) had only 3 equally sized seasons.
Image
Have to research more for the other 4 ;)

Edit 18-10; Added other Blackmoor names as per Rips awesome advice. I choose from the list those missing, while viewing the Starsign itself, looking for envisionable resemblances between the sign and the name; if it would be possible/logical to use that name for that sign.
Edit;22-10 Added Ochalean starsigns (translated from Japanese), Added Nimmurian starsigns (translated from Sumerian), Heratian (Translated from Babylonian),Hule/Sind (Translated from Sanskrit)

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:28 pm
by Robin
ripvanwormer wrote:
Havard wrote:4) Ripvanwormer suggested in another thread, why not keep both Damocles and the minor planets created from its destruction? That would give you an even bigger playground. I think it is a good point even if contradicts all versions of canon :)


I don't recall that thread, but one solution might be to include Pluto, Mercury, and major asteroids like Ceres as moons of Damocles. When Damocles is destroyed, those moons could become planets (or dwarf planets) in their own right.

Another solution might be that the inhabitants of Damocles used magic (or the aid of friendly Immortals) to keep some of their settlements intact even after their planet falls apart, perhaps even as much as Alphatia remained intact when it emerged in the Hollow World.


That these were moons could indeed well have been the case. and with that you do not destroy the canon line.
Mercurius mass is to large to be just a wrecked Damocles section. And when added with the other Damocles sections this increases even.
To Mercurius I agree, although if there where survivors they get an awesome harder time when becoming mercurius, temperatures increase to 400 degrees, and the atmosphere changes. Only with Elemental adaptation (Staffs of Elemental Fire for example) they could survive. Fire elementals or elemental fire creatures would however like the environment and propably take it over.

As can be seen in the Table There was first the small planet Chagas 5320 miles diameter. In 1029 AC (by galactic calculations coming from the destruction in 1000AC) a large section (or moon) slammed into Chagas, Totally destroying it. Gravity caused much debris to merge together and Form Chags(RL Pluto) 1585 miles diameter (renamed Chagas as was presumed to be that planet) and the remnants of Chagas, losing much mass became caught into the gravity of this dwarfplanet became its moon (RL Charon). Other debris was added to the Oort Cloud. For Astrologers a main happening, with probably intense prophecies.

However, not only does this add to the combined mass, but clearly clarfies the source. The part slamming in Chagas was most logically indeed a section of Damocles. It could remotely be possible that this section held (some) of its atmosphere and thus its population. Mindflayers could have used solid time to save themselves. Pyrithians and Emerondians could be part of an underground settlement. Whatever race, they have limited time to save themselves from obliteration when unescapily this rock will hit Chagas. An adventure in itself. Many other Damocles sections enter the Saturn/Jupiter atmosphere and become part of its solid core(under much greater gravity than before) or are added to the Asteroid belt, dust rings of the planets, or travel through space indefinetly (here comes to my mind an Old SF movie Space 1999, where the moon left earth's orbit, and the surviving human crew underwent adventures while the moon is propelled through space...I still have 3 of its original shuttle propshttp://inktank.fi/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/space-1999.jpg.
Something similar could give inventive DM's an unlimited amount of adventures (with lots of time in between to recover and reach the next destination)

@ Rip...Your research on the Blackmoor names for starsigns was great :D , but however also incomplete :( ...do you have the missing starsigns somewhere, or other solutions?? :geek:

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:12 pm
by Havard
A few things I forgot to answer:

Robin wrote:The one thing that does not seem to fit ; is using Spill World as a single planet further away.
As the desciption In Dawn of the emperors, seems more a Cloud of air, and multiple palanetary objects within, and much further away.


Yes, this will be removed in my next update. The SpillWorld should not be anywhere near the Mystara Solar system and is in fact, as you say, not even a single world.

One final flaw on your otherwise very nice map Havard (otherwise I would not have pointed to it)..is the lack of one name.
The Planets Helea and Thanatoi are 2 names, but there are 3 planets here.
I think Helea being the innermost, an unnamed one, and Thanatoi being Pluto. Or...is it Helea, Thanatoi, unnamed one?


Indeed.
There have in fact existed 11 planets in Mystara's solar system compared to our 9 (or 8, depending on the status of Pluto). The two additional ones are:
1) Damocles
2) Charon (Thanatoi) - This world may one day be pulled into Helea's (Pluto's) orbit and become a moon.

Note that Charon / Thanatoi, just like Mercury/Alphaksis come into existence with the destruction of Damocles. I like Rip's suggestion that these were originally the Moons of Damocles.

The planet missing a name on the map is as you have guessed Neptune. The proposed Thyatian name will be Kaum (Ka's Planet).

-Havard

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:22 pm
by Robin
Havard wrote:A few things I forgot to answer:

Robin wrote:The one thing that does not seem to fit ; is using Spill World as a single planet further away.
As the desciption In Dawn of the emperors, seems more a Cloud of air, and multiple palanetary objects within, and much further away.


Yes, this will be removed in my next update. The SpillWorld should not be anywhere near the Mystara Solar system and is in fact, as you say, not even a single world.

One final flaw on your otherwise very nice map Havard (otherwise I would not have pointed to it)..is the lack of one name.
The Planets Helea and Thanatoi are 2 names, but there are 3 planets here.
I think Helea being the innermost, an unnamed one, and Thanatoi being Pluto. Or...is it Helea, Thanatoi, unnamed one?


Indeed.
There have in fact existed 11 planets in Mystara's solar system compared to our 9 (or 8, depending on the status of Pluto). The two additional ones are:
1) Damocles
2) Charon (Thanatoi) - This world may one day be pulled into Helea's (Pluto's) orbit and become a moon.

Note that Charon / Thanatoi, just like Mercury/Alphaksis come into existence with the destruction of Damocles. I like Rip's suggestion that these were originally the Moons of Damocles.

The planet missing a name on the map is as you have guessed Neptune. The proposed Thyatian name will be Kaum (Ka's Planet).

-Havard

Thanx
I'll Add Kaum to the table
I Know of the dates coming to be/stabilizing in orbit...As can be seen in the table are the dates of these locations coming to be/stabilizing.
I like the Moon idea too, byt not on Pluto location as explained above...this does however , as also explained, not block adventure ideas.
i can see an immortal or local summoner, conjure a group of random heroes, ordered to safe the population before the rock hits Chagas/Thanatoi, fot the heroes only to be reurned later...this is a great oppurtunity to insert random races/classes into a group, with globally different socio-cultural backgrounds.

Eagerly awaiting the new improved Mystaraspace map... :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :lol:

Re: Mystara's Solar System (Split from: [Spillworld] ...)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:07 pm
by Robin
One nice thing to know
Even Current scientists think Phobos and Deimos are Hollow (artificial) sattelites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon) Shklovsky's "Hollow Phobos" hypothesis
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/marte/marte_phobos01.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/marte/marte_phobos05.htm
Phobos's density is too low to be solid rock, and it is known to have significant porosity.[15][16][17] These results led to the suggestion that Phobos might contain a substantial reservoir of ice.

With interesting locations as ; the "Phobos monolith"
Youtube; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01tgtBC7LYY

however and whatever...these could be used as a source for DM's to create an adventure