Demons (Fiends)

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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by ripvanwormer » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:30 am

double post, sorry

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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Havard » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:20 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:29 am
BotWizo wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:52 pm
i just wanted to mention in RC / BECMI Nightshades are undead not demons
In some editions, they're undead who were formerly demons. I don't think that interpretation is incompatible with RC/BECMI. But they're definitely not demons in the sense the Immortal Rules used the term (Entropic Immortals).
I think probably using the name Demon to describe this category of creatures might cause more confusion than it helps. In this thread, I used the name Champions to describe the most powerful servants of the four Spheres of Integration below true Immortals. Perhaps I could use the title Champions of Entropy and only have Greater Champions (ie Exalted level beings) be considered Demons/Fiends? The Ostegos, Dunsanu and Navarezan Fiends are still problematic in that respect...

Also, I wanted to keep traditional undead off this list even though they too are often seen as important servants of Entropy.

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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Havard » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:30 pm

Another one to add to the list:

Tzitzimitl (Sons of Azca): These 10+ HD monsters are unique in most respects, but are all servants of Thanatos. They are described as spirits and fiends.

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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by RobJN » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:29 pm

Havard wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:30 pm
Another one to add to the list:

Tzitzimitl (Sons of Azca): These 10+ HD monsters are unique in most respects, but are all servants of Thanatos. They are described as spirits and fiends.

-Havard
Based on the Aztec mythological creatures of the same name, a quick look through Wikipedia paints a not-totally-Evil-but-definitely-not-entirely-friendly picture of these demigod-like creatures:
Wikipedia wrote:The Tzitzimimeh were female deities, and as such related to fertility, they were associated with the Cihuateteo and other female deities such as Tlaltecuhtli, Coatlicue, Citlalicue and Cihuacoatl and they were worshipped by midwives and parturient women. The leader of the tzitzimimeh was the goddess Itzpapalotl who was the ruler of Tamoanchan - the paradise where the Tzitzimimeh resided.

The Tzitzimimeh were also associated with the stars and especially the stars that can be seen around the Sun during a solar eclipse. This was interpreted as the Tzitzimimeh attacking the Sun, thus causing the belief that during a solar eclipse, the tzitzimime would descend to the earth and devour human beings.[2] The Tzitzimimeh were also feared during other ominous periods of the Aztec world, such as during the five unlucky days called Nemontemi which marked an unstable period of the year count, and during the New Fire ceremony marking the beginning of a new calendar round - both were periods associated with the fear of change.
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Shannon » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:00 am

I don't see listed Sasskas the Destroyer. I may have misspelled her name. She appears in PC3 and she is the mastermind controlling the devilfish.

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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by MPA » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:33 am

NPCDave wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:15 am
Havard, the "exalted level" demons you have in your first table are treated differently between the Gold Box and the Wrath of the Immortals box set.

They are exalted power level creatures in WotI, but in the original Gold Box they are full scale Immortals on par with PCs at Temporal, Celestial and higher levels.

An exalted vrock in WotI is more powerful than a balor in 2nd or 3rd Edition D&D, but a Gold Box Temporal vrock can slap around an exalted WotI vrock easily.
I thought Harvard knew that they were different, but his response confirms otherwise. I'm glad that WoTI changed them to Exalted. I'm on the fence as to whether they should have made the Demon Princes Exalted also.
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Havard » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:23 pm

Shannon wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:00 am
I don't see listed Sasskas the Destroyer. I may have misspelled her name. She appears in PC3 and she is the mastermind controlling the devilfish.
Just to clarify,
I didn't set out to make a list of all the Immortals of Entropy. I have only included the ones that are specifically referred to as demons. It is unclear what that means in Gazetteer/WotI terms. At least some of them started out as Exalted level Demons, but that doesn't seem to be the case with all of them.

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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by MPA » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:39 am

NPCDave wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:15 am

They are exalted power level creatures in WotI, but in the original Gold Box they are full scale Immortals on par with PCs at Temporal, Celestial and higher levels.

True, but the WoTI Fiends can cast spells at the 36th level (pg 109), despite their HD. So a Fireball spell would do 36d6 of damage.

Regular Immortals would cast the same fireball at 2x their HD. So a 20th level Temporal, would cast a 40d6 fireball (pg54)
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Shannon » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:44 am

Hi Havard! I understand. I offered the suggestion because Saasskas is in fact a Hissing Demon (I reckon I should have been explicit about that earlier); she is an immortal demon like Alphaks, Orcus, and Demogorgon (not merely an exalted demon, but also not merely an immortal...). Anyhow, here is her dossier from The Sea Poeple, in case it is useful in deciding whether or how to think of her for the purposes of any list or taxonomy of demons:
Saasskas The Destroyer
(Hissing Demon, HD 32, St 28, In 24, Wi 20, Dx 30, Co 30, Ch 16, AL: Chaotic)

The depths of the sea contain many things that man was not meant to know. One of these malignant entities is Saasskas the Destroyer, a demonic immortal from the Sphere of Entropy (see the Dungeon Master's Guide to Immortals, pp. 29-33). Saasskas started life as a devilfish who contracted vampirism and then sought Immortality. This she attained by sacrificing thousands of tritons on her altars deep at the bottom of the sea. After spending centuries on other planes, she returned to finish the work she had begun. Using her powers, Saasskas discovered that many tritons had moved to the Sunlit Sea. Appearing to her devilfish worshipers, Saasskas fired them with an unholy crusade against the tritons. All the devilfish attacks which have taken place in Undersea have occurred as a result of her commands. To avoid intervention by other Immortals, she has not made her presence known to the tritons; rather, she uses her followers to accomplish her ends.

Saasskas prefers to corrupt any who venture into her dark realm, using them to further her aims.The devilfish are firmly under her control and she occasionally appears to them as a devilfish of vast size. Totally in awe of her powers, the devilfish carry out her every wish.

As an immortal, Saasskas takes a long-term view. As far as she is concerned the ultimate destruction of Undersea is inevitable. She can afford to take her time, and revel in its slow destruction. Her plan is to spread dissent among the races of the sea and to set them against one another. She raises the dead of the sea as her soldiers in her war. Thousands of drowned sailors and the bones of the ancient Taymora wait for the day that she will send them against the sea peoples in a wave of unstoppable undeath.

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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Havard » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:06 pm

Shannon wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:44 am
Hi Havard! I understand. I offered the suggestion because Saasskas is in fact a Hissing Demon (I reckon I should have been explicit about that earlier); she is an immortal demon like Alphaks, Orcus, and Demogorgon (not merely an exalted demon, but also not merely an immortal...). Anyhow, here is her dossier from The Sea Poeple, in case it is useful in deciding whether or how to think of her for the purposes of any list or taxonomy of demons:
Ah, indeed you are right! Saasskas needs to be added to the list! Will so so ASAP! :)

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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Big Mac » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:26 pm

NPCDave wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:41 pm
Havard wrote:
NPCDave wrote:Havard, the "exalted level" demons you have in your first table are treated differently between the Gold Box and the Wrath of the Immortals box set.

They are exalted power level creatures in WotI, but in the original Gold Box they are full scale Immortals on par with PCs at Temporal, Celestial and higher levels.

An exalted vrock in WotI is more powerful than a balor in 2nd or 3rd Edition D&D, but a Gold Box Temporal vrock can slap around an exalted WotI vrock easily.
Good points.

All of these creatures are different in power between editions. I had not really looked at comparing Gold Box Demons with the WotI Demons either. In later editions they are definitely less powerful, but sort of the same concepts? I need to find a good way to annotate that I think.
Definitely the same concept and same creatures, but different levels of power due to the different purposes the two box sets had.

The Gold box was intended for PC Immortal campaigns, and Mentzer built the demons accordingly to be a challenge to Immortal PCs. While the WotI set also provided the rules for Immortal campaigns, it served the dual purpose of building a Mystaran metaplot with a primary focus on mortal PCs. So Allston chose to split the difference and make the demons halfway between mortals and Immortals, giving them enough power to qualify as Exalted and be able to fight mortal and Immortal PCs(although for the latter they would need to outnumber PCs to provide a challenge). For Immortal level campaigns, Allston left only his examples of the high level Entropics like Alphaks (who does have a demon form) and Thanatos.
This is interesting, but my Mystara-fu (and Classic D&D-fu) fails me.

Is the Gold Box the Immortals set from BECMI?

So are you saying that the Wrath of the Immortals set rebooted that part of BECMI?

Are any of these demons/fiends in Rules Cyclopedia? Do they get done the Gold Box way or the WotI way?

I know that Havard has posted a couple of boxed sets (starter sets) for the Classic D&D line. Do any of them have demons/fiends in them? Or are they too low level for them?

How about the B/X sets that were out before Frank Mentzer made the BECMI sets. Do either of them have demons/fiends in or was that something that Frank Mentzer added with the BECMI design?
NPCDave wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:41 pm
If you throw in demons from the AD&D->5E line, you get a third set of demons who are still powerful but not quite as powerful as the Exalted class, since they don't have access to Power Points. With power points, the WotI vrock can spend the points to gain the powers of a 36th level magic-user and that gives it a significant edge over "regular" demons. Although if you prefer instead to use Gold Box PP rules, that might weaken the Exalted demons further.
I wonder how easy it is to check power levels between editions (especially when one ruleset has 36 levels of PCs and the other has 20 levels. :?

But I have heard people saying that 1st and 2nd edition AD&D dragons have different power levels.

Do you think that Havard would have to make some sort of conversion adjustments between AD&D and BECMI to get the AD&D>5e demons onto his chart?

Are there any demons in the 2nd Edition AD&D Mystara products that could be used to translate 2e demon stats into Classic D&D demon stats?
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by MPA » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:56 pm

Big Mac wrote: Is the Gold Box the Immortals set from BECMI?
Yes. It is the "I" part.
So are you saying that the Wrath of the Immortals set rebooted that part of BECMI?
Rebooted is one word you can use, but it was more of a remake. Very few things were left unchanged.
Are any of these demons/fiends in Rules Cyclopedia? Do they get done the Gold Box way or the WotI way?
Yes, all except Demogorgon have stats done the WoTI way.
I know that Havard has posted a couple of boxed sets (starter sets) for the Classic D&D line. Do any of them have demons/fiends in them? Or are they too low level for them? How about the B/X sets that were out before Frank Mentzer made the BECMI sets. Do either of them have demons/fiends in or was that something that Frank Mentzer added with the BECMI design?
I haven't read every single campaign adventure, but I don't remember a Fiend (Demon) every being mentioned or at least, with stats any and Basic edition before the Gold Box.

I wonder how easy it is to check power levels between editions (especially when one ruleset has 36 levels of PCs and the other has 20 levels. :?
The Rules Cyclopedia has very detailed conversion tables for those wanting to use characters between games. AD&D PC's are typically more powerful. Too extensive to go into here, but If a AD&D DM let's you play your Basic D&D guy in his campaign or whatever, the levels are the same unless the PC has more than 13 levels. So every three levels after 13 counts as one levels in AD&D. Example: a 33 level Basic PC would be an 18th Advanced PC.

Consequently there is not much change between monsters, other than technical stuff that may or may not exist between worlds (magic resistance, psionics etc.). And gods and immortals aren't recommended to be converted for some reason.
Are there any demons in the 2nd Edition AD&D Mystara products that could be used to translate 2e demon stats into Classic D&D demon stats?
There is practically no thing similar in the stats between the Gold Box demons and AD&D Demons. Converting the AD&D types to Basic would be a matter of creativity. Converting them to WoTI standards would be much the same.

The biggest difference between Goldbox Fiends and WoTI fends is that WoTI they are not full fledged Immortals, but rather "Exalted". They can still deliver a whomping, because despite their HD they can issue out 36d6 spell damage!
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Cthulhudrew » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:11 pm

MPA wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:56 pm
I haven't read every single campaign adventure, but I don't remember a Fiend (Demon) every being mentioned or at least, with stats any and Basic edition before the Gold Box.
Alphaks appears as a Roaring Demon in M1: Into the Maelstrom by Bruce Heard which was released prior to Mentzer's Gold Box. It uses rules that appear to be similar in theory to the Immortals rules, though they are definitely different. My guess is that Bruce may have built that encounter on some ideas from Mentzer (who was doubtless developing the Gold Box at that time, as it came out not long thereafter). I could be wrong about that, though.
There is practically no thing similar in the stats between the Gold Box demons and AD&D Demons. Converting the AD&D types to Basic would be a matter of creativity. Converting them to WoTI standards would be much the same.
This is actually not entirely true. Sometime last year I was working on doing some things with demons, devils, and the like for Mystara and went back to the original sources (AD&D 1 and 2e for devils, daemons, and demons; Pathfinder for divs) to get an idea of how to compare. Comparing the 1e stats for demons to those in the Gold Box, surprisingly there is a lot of parity. The more powerful the demons get, the less likely they equate (the Type VI matched up to the Roaring Demon the least comparably, for instance.) 2E stats are a rather different matter (and 3E and Pathfinder diverge even further). There are still some mechanical differences, obviously, but translating 1E demons (or devils) is actually pretty straightforward. Daemons were a tougher matter, however.
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Big Mac » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:19 am

Havard wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:33 pm
2) What do you think is the relationship between Lesser Demons and Exalted Level Demons?
I know that Orcus gets called a demon in some sources and a deity in others. I think they do something similar with Lolth. :?

Would you look to other D&D settings for information about demons, to try to extrapolate information you might want to use to build on your system? I know that Orcus manages to make a physical appearance in the Ghostwalk campaign setting (probably some sort of avatar as it gets destroyed) before he turns into a deity there. Do you think that Mystara's demons/fiends could use cults to attempt to steal the power of one of the Immortals?

Looking at the way you list the different types of demons here reminds me of the Greater and Lesser deities and demigods from Legends & Lore. Would you see the demons/fiends of Mystara trying to work their way up the system?

If Classic D&D had continued longer, I wonder if they might have expanded upon the demon system and made as many demons as Mystara has immortals. :?

D&D also has something called Primordials. I wonder how they stack up to demons, immortals and deities (in terms of power level). :?
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Big Mac » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:29 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:11 pm
MPA wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:56 pm
I haven't read every single campaign adventure, but I don't remember a Fiend (Demon) every being mentioned or at least, with stats any and Basic edition before the Gold Box.
Alphaks appears as a Roaring Demon in M1: Into the Maelstrom by Bruce Heard which was released prior to Mentzer's Gold Box. It uses rules that appear to be similar in theory to the Immortals rules, though they are definitely different. My guess is that Bruce may have built that encounter on some ideas from Mentzer (who was doubtless developing the Gold Box at that time, as it came out not long thereafter). I could be wrong about that, though.
I've heard that some of the Spelljammer designers worked from some sort of "design kit"* that Jeff Grubb put together (as they started work on some of their products before the original Spelljammer boxed set was published).

* = I don't recall exactly what they called it.

If Bruce Heard was running the TSR schedule, as well as writing Mystara material, perhaps those design kits were a standard thing for boxed sets that were launching product lines. (I wonder if the first Immortal adventures would have needed to have been started before the Immortals Set was published, in order to hit their launch deadlines.)

Anyhoo, what I'm getting at is that I wonder if M1: Into the Maelstrom features proto-rules from the Immortals set that had not yet been fully nailed down by Frank Mentzer (and anyone working with him).

(There is some sort of weird proto-rule about spelljamming helms creating an air envelope that turns up a couple of time in follow on products, but is not actually a rule in the original boxe set - where air envelopes are a natural thing that just happens.)

Perhaps you could learn something interesting about the evolution of BECMI demon rules by comparing various products. :)
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Big Mac » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:38 am

Shannon wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:44 am
Hi Havard! I understand. I offered the suggestion because Saasskas is in fact a Hissing Demon (I reckon I should have been explicit about that earlier); she is an immortal demon like Alphaks, Orcus, and Demogorgon (not merely an exalted demon, but also not merely an immortal...).
I like the way that you have found a history of a demon that shows the process of going from a devilfish to an Immortal.

I'm not sure what the timescale is, but I think you could reboot that to create a similar sort of "evil plan" for any demons (of any power level) that PCs happen to meet.

Havard has "Hissing Demon" as one of seven types of "Exalted Level Demons" in his first post. Do you think there would be a set of demons (a pantheon? :? ) for each of these types?

And is there an example demon (like Sasskas) for each of the Exalted Level Demon types (to give Mystara GMs an idea of how to expand on the back stories).

EDIT: What is the "Hissing" in "Hissing Demon about? Do they just make a hissing noise, or are there abilities, themes or magic items used by cultists related to the name?
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by MPA » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:07 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:38 am
Shannon wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:44 am
Hi Havard! I understand. I offered the suggestion because Saasskas is in fact a Hissing Demon (I reckon I should have been explicit about that earlier); she is an immortal demon like Alphaks, Orcus, and Demogorgon (not merely an exalted demon, but also not merely an immortal...).
I like the way that you have found a history of a demon that shows the process of going from a devilfish to an Immortal.

I'm not sure what the timescale is, but I think you could reboot that to create a similar sort of "evil plan" for any demons (of any power level) that PCs happen to meet.

Havard has "Hissing Demon" as one of seven types of "Exalted Level Demons" in his first post. Do you think there would be a set of demons (a pantheon? :? ) for each of these types?

And is there an example demon (like Sasskas) for each of the Exalted Level Demon types (to give Mystara GMs an idea of how to expand on the back stories).

EDIT: What is the "Hissing" in "Hissing Demon about? Do they just make a hissing noise, or are there abilities, themes or magic items used by cultists related to the name?
The Exalted Demons, and their abilities are in WoTI. Nothing in the Hissing Fiend's description says it hisses, but it has a snake torso so perhaps it does?
Exalted Fiends are the opposite of Titans, both were favored mortals who for one reason or another, weren't qualified to become immortal. I suppose that would include Devil Fish.
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Robin » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:16 pm

Wikipedia has an expanded list on the 'real world' demons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... cal_demons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_demons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_d ... 26_Dragons

AD&D made a difference between Devils and Demons, where there maybe a difference in RL, most are not aware there is a difference , hence devils and Demons are thown in the same heap. AD&D says Devils are Lawful Evil while Demons are Chaotic Evil. Most D&D demons are labelled as Chaotic and their behavior is clearly Evil...hence CE, however, Neutral Evil Demons do also exist apparently in Mystara cosmology.

these lists have them mixed up, yet may be an interesting source for names, plots, agenda's and main characterization
http://www.angelsghosts.com/underworld_demons
http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/15 ... us-demons/
http://www.gods-and-monsters.com/list-o ... names.html

As Devils were Mystara canonnically mentioned only incidental, would that mean they in the Mystara reality have less access to the Prime Plane?

There were several sources dictating the Nine hells (where devils exists) and the Demons belonging to the 666 layers of the Abyss) belonging to the Outer Planer Ring around the Inner Planes
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Although 2 dimensionally displayed as a ring (I see it more as a wave around the Sphere of the inner Planes), many of these Planes were mentioned or indirectly referred to due occupants existing.
Also the cosmology is different for Limbo as displayed above is not an Outer Plane in Mystara cosmology, and must be renamed or removed, like several others

To create individual new demon names I use or pull one from the above lists
https://www.fantasynamegenerators.com/demon_names.php
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Robin
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Robin » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:24 pm

MPA wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:07 pm
The Exalted Demons, and their abilities are in WoTI. Nothing in the Hissing Fiend's description says it hisses, but it has a snake torso so perhaps it does?
Exalted Fiends are the opposite of Titans, both were favored mortals who for one reason or another, weren't qualified to become immortal. I suppose that would include Devil Fish.
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If you look in detail to the illustrations (including adventures) you'll see illustration wher hissing demon (later D&D versions would call it a Marilth with some additional arms 6 instead of 4)
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seems to have a snake like tongue, which which you will always speak with a slurr,...or sliss(especially if it is long)...(I know some having this done on purpose, and like a tonguepiercing your voice/vocal use changes to more lengthened ss tones)
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MPA
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by MPA » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:52 pm

@Robin

I spoke on here (or one of the other forums) with Frank, years ago, briefly about adding Devils as potential enemies to Immortal PC and he thought that was a really good idea. For all purposes they would still be "lawfully" evil.
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I use the rules based on the RC and WoTI.

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Robin
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Robin » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:55 pm

MPA wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:52 pm
@Robin

I spoke on here (or one of the other forums) with Frank, years ago, briefly about adding Devils as potential enemies to Immortal PC and he thought that was a really good idea. For all purposes they would still be "lawfully" evil.
You spoke with Frank Mentzer himself..awesome...I am a bit envious :?

I used TSR 11431 - Guide to Hell for my PC when the entered up in Hell by wrong use of magic
and plan to use TSR 9586 - A Paladin in Hell later with some of the same PC's.
And indeed Devils are Lawful, and often even have been paladins or heroes, tricked into taking the wrong path.

These are useful, although Paladin in Hell is difficult and hence ven more to rewire it towards Mystara.
Guide to Hell though is a great help and can easily be merged with Mystara cosmology and Immortal interactions...its is most work to redesign the Stas, yet this is made more easy with the conversion pages AD&D2 to BECMI D&D in the end of the RC.
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Shannon » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:12 am

Big Mac wrote:
Havard has "Hissing Demon" as one of seven types of "Exalted Level Demons" in his first post. Do you think there would be a set of demons (a pantheon? :? ) for each of these types?

And is there an example demon (like Sasskas) for each of the Exalted Level Demon types (to give Mystara GMs an idea of how to expand on the back stories)?

EDIT: What is the "Hissing" in "Hissing Demon about? Do they just make a hissing noise, or are there abilities, themes or magic items used by cultists related to the name?
Havard has naturally answered your questions well, but I'll elaborate in a way I hope helps. This stuff can be weird even for those of us old men who had (and have) both the Immortals Rules and Wrath of the Immortals, because of the changes, but it is probably really difficult sorting it out without all the materials to hand.

Pantheons & Named Examples of the Seven Types of Demons
Not each of the seven types of demon has a named individual representative, but several do; Havard mentioned these in his list. Saasskas is a hissing demon, Alphaks and Razrog are roaring demons. Atzanteotl is a screaming demon. Ranivorus is a howling demon. Hircismus is actually called a "shaggy demon" and described as a "huge, hulking brute...covered with long, shaggy hair. Its long arms dangle and drag like an ape’s; its hairless face is covered with pulpy, smooth, glistening flesh. The eyes roll madly. The fat, slobbering jowls quiver since Hircismus giggles constantly....Beneath Hircismus’s shaggy hair are short, stiff poisonous spines.... Dangling from Hircismus’s belt (his only garment) are dozens of animated undead heads which gape and roll their eyes in eternal horror." A unique form, not fitting any of the seven common types, he seems more like Orcus or Demogorgon in this regard. Or perhaps we've discovered another type in the "shaggy demon." That could be interesting.... (Say, Havard: What's the citation to Hircismus' being a groaning demon, please? I'm overlooking it.)

I don't think canon contains individually named examples of the other types of demon – croaking demons, whispering demons, or groaning demons (but see my note on Hircismus above and Havard's classification). Also, Nyx is awfully like a whispering demon in appearance, just without the horns or wings; but her goals and behaviour are decidedly not demonic.

I don't know that the presence or absence of these named examples helps much with additional canonical background about the types of demons or any canonical pantheon, though one can certainly invent anything one is inspired to (say, deciding Atzanteotl created or is served by all screaming demons in your version of Mystara, for instance). Canonically, demons are chaotic beyond imagining; they're not prone to cooperation save in the most Byzantine, treacherous, deceitful, and self-serving ways.

The Names of the Types of Demons
I shan't post the artwork here because I don't want to violate any rules about copyrighted material, but if you can find the relevant art from the Immortals Rules and Wrath of the Immortals you'll be a long way to seeing the idea behind the demons' nomenclature.

Some demons – notably those who are also true immortals – seem to have their own unique forms. Orcus and Demogorgon explicitly do, and perhaps Saaskas, Bielgorna, et al. may as well. The standard forms of demons, however, correlate with the adjectives assigned to them, and suggest they probably do make the characteristic sounds for which each is named, in some cases the rules explicitly state the demon makes the affiliated sound:
  • A screaming demon is "part bird and part man in form, standing over eight feet tall on stork-like legs. Powerful claws adorn humanoid arms. Its feet are taloned. Its large feathered thirty-foot wingspread provides quick flight. If the air demon can gain surprise, it swoops down on one opponent. Lacking surprise, it screamsin birdlike fashion as it dives to the attack." Aliases for "Screaming Demon" are "Air Demon" and "Winged Fury."
  • A croaking demon is a "foul, slimy monster [that] looks like a giant humanoid toad, standing about seven feet tall [with a] ten-foot-long magical tongue." Aliases for "Croaking Demon" are "Swamp Demon" and "Gobbler."
  • A howling demon "has a wolfs head with long, sharp horns; a large, muscular body, but normal human legs. It stands about nine feet tall. It has four arms; two long arms are attached at its shoulders and end in crablike pincers, and two smaller human arms protrude from its chest. The small arms are used only in normal activities, never in melee.... It often howls whenever...attacks miss." Aliases for "Howling Demon" are "Fire Demon" and "Four-Armed Horror."
  • A groaning demon "is a tall humanoid with the torso and arms of an ape, a boar's head, and goat-like legs. It stands ten feet tall. Its favorite weapon of terror is its groan, a nightmarish, resonant sound which causes its victims to shake uncontrollably, effectively paralyzed...." Aliases for "Groaning Demon" are "Forest Demon" and "Biter."
  • A hissing demon "appears either as a twenty-foot-long, giant, poisonous snake or as part snake, part humanoid. In snake form, it may either bite or spit poison.... The water demon's semi-human form is a six-armed female human torso (about seven feet tall) atop a ten-foot-long snake's body. Each of the six arms may wield any one-handed weapon, and a wide variety of weapons are often used...." Aliases for "Hissing Demon" are "Water Demon" and "Destroyer." (While this demon is not explicitly noted as hissing, spitting is of course often accompanied by a hiss.)
  • A roaring demon is a "fearsome, fanged demon [with] a twelve-foot-tall human body. Sharp horns protrude one foot from each side of its head, and huge, leathery wings rise from its back. It is a reasonable creature, and rarely attacks by surprise, preferring to allow its victims a chance to surrender totally and unconditionally. If refused, it usually roars. This roaring instantly summons one or both of two special weapons...." Aliases for "Roaring Demon" are "Mountain Demon" and "Manslayer."
  • A whispering demon "is never found with others of its kind, nor with hissing demons. It prefers to act alone or as the companion of another powerful demon. Its natural form is that of a human female with small horns and great bat-like wings, but this form is rarely seen. It prefers to appear as an extremely seductive mortal, either male or female and of any race, as suits its goals. The charmer seeks to dupe its victims by convincing them it is good and innocent, sometimes pretending to be a captive. It relies on false appearances and treachery. Rather than fighting for itself, it usually relies on a powerful companion or mistakenly beguiled allies to do the fighting for it." Aliases for "Whispering Demon" are "Charmer" and "Grey Deceiver."
Thus, only the croaking demon, hissing demon, and whispering demon are not noted explicitly to make their eponymous sounds. However, Croaking demons are "giant, humanoid toads" and of course toads croak; hissing and spitting go hand in hand, as noted; additionally, hissing demons are serpentine, and serpents are known for hissing. Whispering demons and hissing demons are explicitly described as female (though whispering demons may take male forms), and that gender is reinforced by their not consorting together. The whispering demon's ways may be, I think, fairly said to invoke what we might conventionally call seductive, feminine wiles, which, combined with its penchant for hypnotically charming victims, all go naturally with whispering.

I hope that additional detail may help with your understanding of the various types of demons.

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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by Cthulhudrew » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:01 am

@Big Mac-

Just to further clarify (in case it isn't obvious at this point) the BECMI demons/fiends match up with the "traditional" demons from the 1E Monster Manual:

Screaming Demon = Type I/Vrock
Croaking Demon = Type II/Hezrou
Howling Demon = Type III/Glabrezu
Groaning Demon = Type IV/Nalfeshnee
Hissing Demon = Type V/Marilith
Roaring Demon = Type VI/Balor
Whispering Demon = Succubus
Orcus = Orcus
Demogorgon = Demogorgon

As noted, several other Immortals (Alphaks, Ssasskas, etc.) were noted to have forms that resemble demonic types, but I generally tend to think that was just easier "shorthand" in lieu of giving them unique forms as was done for Orcus and Demogorgon. Of course, in the Gold Box demons were considered to be Entropic Immortals, as opposed to being just powerful agents of Entropy as they became in Wrath of the Immortals (which was somewhat more in line with how they were portrayed in AD&D).

I used to be a big proponent of the Demons as Immortals concept of Mentzer, but increasingly have come to prefer they just be powerful (albeit mortal) creatures. I am still on the fence as to how to treat Unique Demons, though (Orcus, et al). I think I prefer to have them as near-Immortal level creatures that exist outside of the Immortal hierarchy, but who generally serve the cause of Entropy, as opposed to just having them be Immortals (and thus I would dispense of some of these backstories that were created for their mortal ascension, like Orcus having been a lycanthrope in early Mystara history).
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Re: Demons (Fiends)

Post by MPA » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:15 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:

I am still on the fence as to how to treat Unique Demons, though (Orcus, et al). I think I prefer to have them as near-Immortal level creatures that exist outside of the Immortal hierarchy, but who generally serve the cause of Entropy, as opposed to just having them be Immortals
What the? That's almost verbatim on my thoughts above. Glad I am not the only one who feels this way. :D :D
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My PC is the Celestial level Immortal Krull, "Patron to all Chaotic humans, especially warriors".
I use the rules based on the RC and WoTI.

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