Etienne's Return to Immortality

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Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Havard » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:00 pm

The end of Mark of Amber determines the fate of Etienne d'Ambreville. But even if he only returns as a mortal (moderate success) at the end of the adventure, I would assume that he eventually regains Immortality again. He knows everything about the Radience so he could easily use that to get back into Immortal status right away, unless he would prefer to quest for Immortality in a more traditional way.

It is also possible that Gareth is Etienne returning to Immortality, though it seems a bit unlike his style IMO.

What do you think Etienne's plan would be following Mark of Amber? What would happen once he returns to the ranks of Immortality?

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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Sturm » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:07 pm

In my campaign Etienne returned with his mortal personality, but stayed mostly out of Glantrian politics, leaving Isidore as Princess and his very presence in Glantri known only to some members of the family.
He also became less stiff as an Immortal, allowing the continuying presence of clerics and other faiths in Glantri. From there I did not continue much, but probably he would be forced to a confrontation with Synn eventually. In this case Synn should lose, unless she is a mortal identity of Idris, or backed by some very powerful entropic (such as Thanatos or Hel).
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby micky » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:21 am

Sturm wrote:In my campaign Etienne returned with his mortal personality, but stayed mostly out of Glantrian politics, leaving Isidore as Princess and his very presence in Glantri known only to some members of the family.
He also became less stiff as an Immortal, allowing the continuying presence of clerics and other faiths in Glantri. From there I did not continue much, but probably he would be forced to a confrontation with Synn eventually. In this case Synn should lose, unless she is a mortal identity of Idris, or backed by some very powerful entropic (such as Thanatos or Hel).


As in mine... his experience with the Old Ones at the conclusion of the WotI showed him the proverbial 'light' hahah. He has bigger fish to fry than assuming the full time mortal indentity of Etienne again.. remember... if one takes my notion of Etienne and the d'Ambreville family.. he has been a noble in Glantri for over 200 years. I think he's had enough of petty Glantrian politics.. he has sort of evolved into a more typical immortal patron, working from the shadows indirectly, rather than the atypically for immortals active patron/participant he was as Etienne and his second mortal ID of Count Tulasne during the X2 disappearance years.

A question I've never seen raised.. or answered if it was. His reaction to the completion of Rafiels work. I would think he if anything.. spends most of his mortal ID time as a bitchin hot Shadow Elf shamen.. getting freaky with the guys and studying Rafiel's project.

and as far as Synn... you would think an attempt by her could bring him out. However as Synn.. even as the mortal identity of Idris.. she is only a plane jane M36 with no other special powers.. she gets smoked in a direct confrontation with the Brotherhood and they wouldn't need Etienne's help.

now backed by teh very powerful Entropics? ahh huhh.. that is where the fun in Glantri starts and why so many of us have waited so long and impatiently for....and pondered just what 1020 would bring to Glantri now that the Radiance cat is out of the bag and Synn has her eyes set on it. No way they authorize her to use it... does she stop after being warned.. of course not... does the Brotherhood step in to stop her unauthorized use of it... of course....da da duh....
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Marco Fossati » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:17 am

I think he would not to be tied to glantrian politics again.

I'm pretty sure he would try to attain immortality again, either by the use of radiance or by a sponsor.

In any case, he'll act like a behind-the scene power, probably trying to oppose Synn.

I'm pretty sure he'll choose some "enlightened" glantrian nobles (Harald? Jherek? du Marais?) to be his frontface allies.
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby micky » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:09 pm

oh yeah.. misread this thread.

In my campaign.. he is still immortal. The Mark of Amber was a serious screwed up and crap module. Starting with 400 year old d'Ambrevilles.. and going downhill from there. The premise that the Old Ones would want Etienne mortal again is as stupid as it is ... ludricrous. Worried about conflict with the other immortals.. I think it was pretty clear from the end of the WotI that Ixion was enlightened and saw the errors of his ways.

He would be an intense subject of curiosity to the Old Ones... perhaps going back to what made the Old Ones what they were. Why on God's green earth would they make him mortal again. If there is a reason it would more than the flimsy and obviously half-assed notion the adventure gave of ..ohh. conflict.. as if Ixion was warned already that Rad/Etienne was special and had their mark of approval.

Who else was going to have a problem with Etienne.. he obviously had the blessings and mark of approval from the Old Ones. If anything they'd be sucking up to him to learn whatever he had learned once he returned from where ever he went after the climax of the WotI. Conflict? Nah...He was the immortal version of mortal Glantri.. you mess with them at your own peril.

Needless to say... none of that adventure made it into my campaign and shouldn't have anyone elses hahaha. It might work in a one off adventure setting. .but it doesn't fit within the campaign framework as it itself tried to do and their 300 and 400 year old d'Ambrevilles and having children... boo...

seriously boo....as I was just telling someone privately via email in relation to the work I've been doing. We have the Mark of Amber to blame for messing up the d'Ambrevilles to the insane stage which likely stopped anyone previously.. and took me years to finally unravel the mess to the point of coming up with a plausible history of the family. In that... most of these characters are exteremely old at Gaz3.. many (the oldest obviously) are dead by the time this adventure is set. It didn't fit my campaign. in which a whole family does not live 300 years..huh... and the less said about the Etienne Genevieve love affair the better.. triple boo!! So is she hundreds of years old as well oh brother... as I said.. if Glantri:Kingdom of Magic :lol: was a 10 on the crap-o-meter of later core material . Mark of Amber registers a 9 :lol: :lol:
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Havard » Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:27 pm

micky wrote:oh yeah.. misread this thread.

In my campaign.. he is still immortal. The Mark of Amber was a serious screwed up and crap module. Starting with 400 year old d'Ambrevilles.. and going downhill from there. The premise that the Old Ones would want Etienne mortal again is as stupid as it is ... ludricrous. Worried about conflict with the other immortals.. I think it was pretty clear from the end of the WotI that Ixion was enlightened and saw the errors of his ways.

He would be an intense subject of curiosity to the Old Ones... perhaps going back to what made the Old Ones what they were. Why on God's green earth would they make him mortal again. If there is a reason it would more than the flimsy and obviously half-assed notion the adventure gave of ..ohh. conflict.. as if Ixion was warned already that Rad/Etienne was special and had their mark of approval


Whether Etienne returns as a mortal, an Immortal or not at all is left up to the actions of the players in the module.

What message the Old Ones wanted to send at the end of WotI (still not ruling out that he could be a hoax) is not clear. I think that the Old Ones do want the Immortals to keep studying the Radience and similar phenomena, but perhaps they also wanted to teach Rad a lessson about how he was was going about it? Or perhaps they even wanted to use this as a way of training him to become an even better student of the Radience?

I am not sure about Allston's treatment of Etienne though. I always viewed him kind of as Mystara's Gandalf, even if with a few quirks such as his French accent.


Now let us assume that Etienne does return as a 36th level Mortal. That is just going to be a temporary setback anyway. He will return to Immortality fairly soon thereafter.

Will he leave Glantri and the Ambreville family? I somehow doubt that. He is tied both to the Radience and to his family and I think he will keep taking an interest in those. But perhaps he will be working more behind the shadows for a while, staying out of the Synn plotline as long as Synn does not discover the Radience.

How would Rad and Rafiel get along? I think they were allies during WotI, but from what I understood, Rafiel's project (The Chamber of the Stars) was actually siphoning power awat from the Radience so I have always thought more of them as rivals, even if they are both interested in exploring that kind of power.

I do think that Ixion has learned his lesson and I don't think he will oppose Etienne once he is restored to Immortality. Perhaps those two might even find a way to work together in the future?

Benekander is also an interesting factor in all of this, as is Gareth.

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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby ripvanwormer » Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:45 pm

Havard wrote:What message the Old Ones wanted to send at the end of WotI (still not ruling out that he could be a hoax) is not clear. I think that the Old Ones do want the Immortals to keep studying the Radience and similar phenomena, but perhaps they also wanted to teach Rad a lessson about how he was was going about it? Or perhaps they even wanted to use this as a way of training him to become an even better student of the Radience?


The path that permits Immortals to rise to the status of Old Ones involves them first relinquishing their Immortality and rising a second time from mortal status. Technically, an applicant for Old One status is supposed to rise to the level of Full Hierarch twice, but Rad was never one to do things by the accepted paths.

Perhaps the Old Ones stripped Rad of his Immortality because they hoped he would find a way to become one of them.
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Havard » Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:52 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:The path that permits Immortals to rise to the status of Old Ones involves them first relinquishing their Immortality and rising a second time from mortal status. Technically, an applicant for Old One status is supposed to rise to the level of Full Hierarch twice, but Rad was never one to do things by the accepted paths.

Perhaps the Old Ones stripped Rad of his Immortality because they hoped he would find a way to become one of them.


Yes, I have thought about this too. Technically the Immortal would have to rise to the rank of Hierarch before giving up his Immortality and then rise from 1st level to ascend to Immortality a second time and then make your way into Hierarch status before becoming an Old One, but I suppose this could qualify him for rising to Old One status once he makes it to Hierach after the events of Mark of Amber. That might still take a few centuries, but he could very well be on his way there :)

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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby ripvanwormer » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:01 pm

Havard wrote:Technically the Immortal would have to rise to the rank of Hierarch before giving up his Immortality and then rise from 1st level to ascend to Immortality a second time and then make your way into Hierarch status before becoming an Old One, but I suppose this could qualify him for rising to Old One status once he makes it to Hierach after the events of Mark of Amber. That might still take a few centuries, but he could very well be on his way there :)


The thing that makes Rad/Etienne so controversial among the Immortals is that he uses the Radiance to "cheat." The Radiance is a shortcut to Immortality, so why not use it as a shortcut to Old One status as well?
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Havard » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:37 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Havard wrote:Technically the Immortal would have to rise to the rank of Hierarch before giving up his Immortality and then rise from 1st level to ascend to Immortality a second time and then make your way into Hierarch status before becoming an Old One, but I suppose this could qualify him for rising to Old One status once he makes it to Hierach after the events of Mark of Amber. That might still take a few centuries, but he could very well be on his way there :)


The thing that makes Rad/Etienne so controversial among the Immortals is that he uses the Radiance to "cheat." The Radiance is a shortcut to Immortality, so why not use it as a shortcut to Old One status as well?


Good point!

In some ways I don't want Rad to become an Old One, because that typically means you leave the Multiverse behind, but perhaps Rad would find a way to cheat there too?

I think a campaign centered around helping Rad to become an Old One could be a lot of fun! :)

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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby ripvanwormer » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:46 pm

Havard wrote:I think a campaign centered around helping Rad to become an Old One could be a lot of fun! :)


Or a campaign centered around trying to prevent him from doing so. Perhaps the PCs' Immortal patrons fear it will result in disaster and have tasked the PCs with stopping it.

Havard wrote:I always viewed him kind of as Mystara's Gandalf, even if with a few quirks such as his French accent.


It occurs to me that Krynn's Gandalf, Fizban/Paladine, also gave up his Immortality. Coincidence?
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby micky » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:01 pm

Havard wrote:
micky wrote:oh yeah.. misread this thread.

In my campaign.. he is still immortal. The Mark of Amber was a serious screwed up and crap module. Starting with 400 year old d'Ambrevilles.. and going downhill from there. The premise that the Old Ones would want Etienne mortal again is as stupid as it is ... ludricrous. Worried about conflict with the other immortals.. I think it was pretty clear from the end of the WotI that Ixion was enlightened and saw the errors of his ways.

He would be an intense subject of curiosity to the Old Ones... perhaps going back to what made the Old Ones what they were. Why on God's green earth would they make him mortal again. If there is a reason it would more than the flimsy and obviously half-assed notion the adventure gave of ..ohh. conflict.. as if Ixion was warned already that Rad/Etienne was special and had their mark of approval


Whether Etienne returns as a mortal, an Immortal or not at all is left up to the actions of the players in the module.

Perhaps I need to reread it.. I just remember some bit about him sitting up in casket.. SURPRISE!!!.. and then renewing the Etienne-Genevieve love fest and showing de Sephora a new religion later that night. hah..

In any case...the whole premise and adventure stinks to high heaven from a basic smell test of logic and plausibility like any badly written or half baked adventure.. printed or not IMO. :lol:


What message the Old Ones wanted to send at the end of WotI (still not ruling out that he could be a hoax) is not clear. I think that the Old Ones do want the Immortals to keep studying the Radience and similar phenomena, but perhaps they also wanted to teach Rad a lessson about how he was was going about it? Or perhaps they even wanted to use this as a way of training him to become an even better student of the Radience?

yeah.. the Old Ones

A head scratcher though.. is the sudden interest in Etienne.. the Radiance.. in fact the whole world of mortals affairs. Where were they 200 odd years ago when Etienne broke the rules made the jump and gave the bird to the establishment.. where were they when the immortals started acting like little children over Rad's action and started killing thousands.. hundreds of thousands..

mortals to them are just the dead skin we scrape off.. even the immortals themselves are but the cute little furry animals we see locked in cages we take the kids to gawk over....

what finally got their attention to intervene.

.
I am not sure about Allston's treatment of Etienne though. I always viewed him kind of as Mystara's Gandalf, even if with a few quirks such as his French accent.

:D just add Etienne to the list of Mystaran warcrimes we can throw at Allston :lol:

Now let us assume that Etienne does return as a 36th level Mortal. That is just going to be a temporary setback anyway. He will return to Immortality fairly soon thereafter.

indeed so what would be the point of having been returned to mortal status. Makes no sense to me why he would have ever lost his immortal status.. punishment makes no sense. Even if he had done something wrong by the Old Ones which obviously was NOT the case by the WotI. He could regain it at the snap of a Radiance spell.. so in the absence of reason any compelling reason.. and the presence of a badly written ill conceived adventure even bringing up the notion.. I just kept him immortal.. but much wiser due his time in the Vortex.

Will he leave Glantri and the Ambreville family? I somehow doubt that. He is tied both to the Radience and to his family and I think he will keep taking an interest in those. But perhaps he will be working more behind the shadows for a while, staying out of the Synn plotline as long as Synn does not discover the Radience.

No ties to the family man.. especially as the die off.. and yes... outside of the complete half baked fantasy land of later canon products. The d'Ambrevilles do age and die. He hated his family as much they hated him. The Radiance.. can study it as well as an immortal as mortal. He has a strong leader and protector of the Radiance in Harald.. one who himself could soon discover the last step and make an attempt to immortality himself. As I noted above.. I think his interest would actually be drawn away from Glantri from what the Shadow Elves and Rafiel did.

How would Rad and Rafiel get along? I think they were allies during WotI, but from what I understood, Rafiel's project (The Chamber of the Stars) was actually siphoning power awat from the Radience so I have always thought more of them as rivals, even if they are both interested in exploring that kind of power.

I'd have to reread.. but don't remember any mention of Rafiels device. a non magical device (see Day Without Magic) siphoning off magical power from the Beagle's reactor. Rival's? I don't really see that.. they worked well tegether in the WotI. Perhaps Rad has his nose bent out of joint for being kept out of the loop by Rafiel on his project.. but he'd get over it soon enough. Two very different devices here.. I think both would work together to learn from each other and further each's own researches.

I do think that Ixion has learned his lesson and I don't think he will oppose Etienne once he is restored to Immortality. Perhaps those two might even find a way to work together in the future?

1020? We shall see.. but yeah.. I think Ixion more than any immortal needed a reality check having lost sight of the forest for the trees. Consider him suitably chastened and ego-checked.

Benekander is also an interesting factor in all of this, as is Gareth.

yeah... you tend to forget about Benekander. Don't recall fandom or later (post WotI) really touching him.

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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby micky » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:34 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Havard wrote:What message the Old Ones wanted to send at the end of WotI (still not ruling out that he could be a hoax) is not clear. I think that the Old Ones do want the Immortals to keep studying the Radience and similar phenomena, but perhaps they also wanted to teach Rad a lessson about how he was was going about it? Or perhaps they even wanted to use this as a way of training him to become an even better student of the Radience?


The path that permits Immortals to rise to the status of Old Ones involves them first relinquishing their Immortality and rising a second time from mortal status. Technically, an applicant for Old One status is supposed to rise to the level of Full Hierarch twice, but Rad was never one to do things by the accepted paths.

Perhaps the Old Ones stripped Rad of his Immortality because they hoped he would find a way to become one of them.


now that is at least a semi plausible thought out reason for him reappearing out of the WotI having lost his immortality thanks to the Old Ones. You should have written the Mark of Amber adventure hahah

Semi plausible in that even if one considers the Old Ones more enlightened than the immortals and not so cliquish or bound to tradition that an outsider breaking the rules really would bend their noses out of shape

one still would still have to look at this way.

Etienne was merely a mid level Immortal.. consider him but an expert level mortal character. Even using the intentional (as opposed to the accidental immortals like Benekandar) shortcut he had to be extremely high mortal level. One could say the same of any to intentional jump from immortal to Old One status. I would think the cheat point would be skipping the 2nd Heirarch stage... but one still had to reach it.. the top of the ladder just as Etienne had as a mortal. Perhaps at THAT point he might discover a cheat point.. but again... how many have even made the jump.. 2 in a thousand years. This is not really a plausible route or explanation. Time means little for immortals.. even less for The Old Ones.. they surely would be content to wait a another couple hundred years for Rad to reach Heirarch before giving any clue to him... or to be honest.. him on his own even discovering such a short cut that no immortal else in thousands and thousands of years had discovered.
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:49 am

micky wrote: I would think the cheat point would be skipping the 2nd Heirarch stage... but one still had to reach it.. the top of the ladder just as Etienne had as a mortal.


That's certainly a limit you could establish.

I think, though, that if you allow the Radiance to break the rules at all then you've established that the rules aren't set in stone and anything is possible, at least in theory.

What does the title "Full Hierarch" actually mean? What cosmic significance does the Immortal hierarchy actually have? Did the Old Ones set it in place, or is it just an arbitrary structure set in place by the Immortals themselves? Could they just as easily have set up a different system? If they had, would the Old Ones have cared?

Rad became an Immortal without a patron; that isn't supposed to be possible at all (although the most ancient Immortals may have achieved it, as did Rafiel, Benekander, and a few others). Is he actually part of the Immortal hierarchy or is he outside it? Is there a difference? Perhaps the fact that other Immortals have accepted him as one of them means he is one of them, and the same rules that apply to them apply to him.

Or maybe his unique origins mean he's a different kind of being entirely, and the rules of Immortality don't apply to him at all.

In the beginning of all things, in the dim forgotten ages, when the oldest Immortals first began recruiting among mortals to create others of their kind, did they create the rules for doing so or did they only discover them? Did they find them engraved in fiery letters on the side of an ancient mountain drifting in the void of the Astral Plane, carved by unknown hands? Or did they just set limits in place to protect their own power, the rules born of compromise and jealousy?

Time means little for immortals.. even less for The Old Ones.. they surely would be content to wait a another couple hundred years for Rad to reach Heirarch before giving any clue to him... or to be honest.. him on his own even discovering such a short cut that no immortal else in thousands and thousands of years had discovered.


If time is meaningless, it might as well be now as hundreds of years from now. Perhaps the confluence of events in the wake of the Wrath of the Immortals crisis and the events of Mark of Amber meant that this period was the most critical one. If the Old Ones didn't establish the Immortal hierarchy, they have no inherent reason to respect it; perhaps ordinarily they wait for Immortals to reach Full Hierarch status because Full Hierarchs are privy to secrets they deny lesser Immortals... and perhaps Rad discovered those secrets on their own. If Rad is his own kind of Immortal being, separate from the Immortal Hierarchy, perhaps he's already effectively the Full Hierarch of a Sphere all his own (or perhaps he shares it with Rafiel and Benekander), something the Old Ones recognize even if other Immortals do not.
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Cthulhudrew » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:03 am

Havard wrote:What message the Old Ones wanted to send at the end of WotI (still not ruling out that he could be a hoax) is not clear. I think that the Old Ones do want the Immortals to keep studying the Radience and similar phenomena, but perhaps they also wanted to teach Rad a lessson about how he was was going about it? Or perhaps they even wanted to use this as a way of training him to become an even better student of the Radience?


To me, it is the Old Ones' involvement in all of this that is most problematic. In Mentzer's Immortals set, the Old Ones are essentially a myth to Immortals. They are theorized to exist, there may be hints at higher intelligence in various aspects of the multiverse, but there is no hard proof of anything they do, or are about. They are gods to the gods.

Then, in WotI, Allston has an Old One actually manifest at the climax of the adventure (acting as a literal deus ex machina), and then has them take a personal interest and involvement in Etienne's fate during Mark of Amber.

Personally, I prefer the Mentzerian take on them as a possibility, but not a certainty, to the role that Allston gave them in Wrath (a role that seems very much akin to the Overgods of the Realms, such as Lord Ao.) Making them just another step in a hierarchy of power, with the same apparent aims to meddle in the roles and affairs of lesser beings, seems sort of mundane. I prefer them to remain an enigma. (All of which is neither here nor there, perhaps.)

How would Rad and Rafiel get along? I think they were allies during WotI, but from what I understood, Rafiel's project (The Chamber of the Stars) was actually siphoning power awat from the Radience so I have always thought more of them as rivals, even if they are both interested in exploring that kind of power.


IIRC, I don't think the Chamber of the Spheres is draining power away from the Radiance/Nucleus of the Spheres. Nor is it draining magic from Mystara at all, as the Nucleus does. It seems to be- again, from what I recall- a very much self-contained energy source, powered exclusively by the radiance crystals. Presumably, once the source of radiance crystals is depleted, it will eventually run out of energy?

I think that Rafiel's chief interest in joining the Rad alliance was fears that- if the other Immortals were going to take a stand against Rad's project, that they would do the same to his- regardless of whether the dangers posed by both were the same. Ixion's major concern as I remember is not so much that it was draining magic, but that it could allow mortals to sidestep the patronage process and trials of Immortality. He just used the magic draining as the smoking gun to provoke action.

Benekander is also an interesting factor in all of this, as is Gareth.


I still think that "Gareth" is more than likely a different Immortal entirely (perhaps Loki) who is using the turmoil caused by the Wrath wars to stir up animosity against the Immortal hierarchy for his own purposes.
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Cthulhudrew » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:11 am

ripvanwormer wrote:I think, though, that if you allow the Radiance to break the rules at all then you've established that the rules aren't set in stone and anything is possible, at least in theory.

What does the title "Full Hierarch" actually mean? What cosmic significance does the Immortal hierarchy actually have? Did the Old Ones set it in place, or is it just an arbitrary structure set in place by the Immortals themselves? Could they just as easily have set up a different system? If they had, would the Old Ones have cared?


Along these lines, consider as well the creatures that exist outside the hierarchy the Immortals inhabit. Beings such as the Draedens, who- while clearly vastly powerful and immortal themselves- and who, at least in game mechanics terms, may even be granted "equivalencies" to Immortals- are obviously very much not a part of- and may even be outwardly hostile towards- the Immortal Hierarchy.

Again- I think that Ixion's main problem was that the Radiance created a means by which mortals- albeit powerful, knowledgeable (and lucky!) ones- would be able to attain the heights of power of the Immortals, and possibly circumvent a system that was eons old. That's why he and some others were so adamant that something be done to stop it. The Old Ones, it seems to me, wouldn't and shouldn't have cared much at all.

Frankly, I think Ixion would have been better served reforming the hierarchy itself such that mortals who ascended to Immortality outside the patronage system wouldn't necessarily have been able to just be brought into the fold of the Immortal Hierarchy at all, or else put some safeguards in place such that they would have to jump through hoops to demonstrate their ability to fit into that hierarchy.

(In retrospect, as well, it occurs to me that it probably should have been one of the more definitively Lawful Immortals who was actually concerned about the prospect, as opposed to the more chaotically inclined and fiery natured Ixion. Maybe bring him and his hot temper in as an ally, but he doesn't really fit too well as the instigator.)
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Robin » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:46 pm

i personally dislike rad, and as i played the adventure with both of my groups of players i had then; in one he never did return, in another he became mortal, and had to larn anew...which was difficult as within his new lifetime, the radiance blew up, with all its nice and not so nice effects...i would expect him to become eventually immortal again, but with a severe changed disposition to magic in general
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Khedrac » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:07 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:Again- I think that Ixion's main problem was that the Radiance created a means by which mortals- albeit powerful, knowledgeable (and lucky!) ones- would be able to attain the heights of power of the Immortals, and possibly circumvent a system that was eons old. That's why he and some others were so adamant that something be done to stop it. The Old Ones, it seems to me, wouldn't and shouldn't have cared much at all.

Except, the method by which new Old Ones are created (something they seem to want) is dependent upon mortals reaching the heights of immortal power twice.
The existence of the Radiance short-cut makes this significantly more likely (and new immortals, like new adventurers) are the most likely to die in a non-recoverable fashion. The ability to jump straight to a fairly high level of immortal power makes the entity far more likely to survive to hierarch.

I think the Old Ones would be all for the Radiance shortcut (and any others that exist), they just didn't want it draining magic to do so and that would eventually end the supply of candidates...

This actually begs a question for Rad's future - if he comes back mortal and makes it back to immortality, will he count as on his second pass through for Old One-hood?
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Cthulhudrew » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:29 am

Khedrac wrote:I think the Old Ones would be all for the Radiance shortcut (and any others that exist), they just didn't want it draining magic to do so and that would eventually end the supply of candidates...


And yet, going by Wrath of the Immortals, it was an Old One that modified the Beagle's engines to work in this fashion. So either it is working as intended, or else it isn't. In any case, I still think this direct involvement of the Old Ones runs very much counter to the way they are theorized to operate in the first place (at least under Mentzer).
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby Khedrac » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:43 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:And yet, going by Wrath of the Immortals, it was an Old One that modified the Beagle's engines to work in this fashion. So either it is working as intended, or else it isn't. In any case, I still think this direct involvement of the Old Ones runs very much counter to the way they are theorized to operate in the first place (at least under Mentzer).

I agree - very much a "too many cooks" scenario.
Personally I do not much like the adventure in WotI, it renders so much of the existing published world lore "historical only" if run as written - i.e. 'let's tear up the campaign world and re-write it'.
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Re: Etienne's Return to Immortality

Postby jacquesriesling » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:24 pm

>To me, it is the Old Ones' involvement in all of this that is most problematic. In Mentzer's Immortals set,
>the Old Ones are essentially a myth to Immortals. They are theorized to exist, there may be hints at higher
>intelligence in various aspects of the multiverse, but there is no hard proof of anything they do, or are about.
>They are gods to the gods.
>
>Then, in WotI, Allston has an Old One actually manifest at the climax of the adventure (acting as a literal
>deus ex machina), and then has them take a personal interest and involvement in Etienne's fate during Mark of Amber.

The Old Ones are a *myth* but something happens if an Immortal reaches Hierarch status twice and many of
the Immortals would say that it's a promotion to a higher rank. The Immortals believe that the Old Ones don't
interfere but there are signs that this just isn't so, not all of them related to the Radiance. The Old Ones have
a man on the inside and he'd be the first to deny it. I don't know if there are any references to active Old Ones
before the WotI supplement.

Ixion was forced to form an alliance to stop Rad-Rafiel-etc. because the Radiance was draining the Sphere
of Energy. If the players put a stop to that then Ixion can claim victory.
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