[5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans?

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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by Dread Delgath » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:03 pm

ghendar wrote:It bugs me that they keep referring to the original 1e version. These modules were not written for 1e. The original B1 came with the Holmes rules. B2 came with Moldvay basic and then Mentzer Basic.
There were 3 versions (at least!) of B2. The first came out with the Holmes rules, 2nd & 3rd were written to work with Moldvay, but I don't think they re-wrote it for the Mentzer Basic rules - but it would still work without any glitches with that set. :cool:

EDIT: The Goodman Games site says B2 has 9 printings, each one slightly different. I know I can't keep track of the printings & editions it went through, but Zach Howard's Zenopus Archives blog and the Aceaum forums goes over the changes in great detail. (Aceaum link found in Zenopus Archives link.)
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by ghendar » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:02 pm

No doubt that you can use B2 with little modification but referring to it as a 1e module is misleading
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by Dread Delgath » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:55 am

ghendar wrote:No doubt that you can use B2 with little modification but referring to it as a 1e module is misleading
Yes, that is. I did not mean to overshadow your main complaint without agreement. My apologies. :cool:
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by ghendar » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:20 pm

Dread Delgath wrote:
ghendar wrote:No doubt that you can use B2 with little modification but referring to it as a 1e module is misleading
Yes, that is. I did not mean to overshadow your main complaint without agreement. My apologies. :cool:
No need for apologies. Just discussing :D
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by Dread Delgath » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:08 pm

Oh. :oops: Well, then. :) Nevermind. :lol:

I just scanned the Goodman Games 'update' link again, looking specifically for any references to AD&D 2nd edition version of "Return to the Keep on the Borderland" for the Silver Anniversary foo fah roo and didn't see any. This leads me to believe that Goodman Games will 'forget' that particular version, and that is a good thing. :cool:

This one of the things that didn't set well with me when WotC inserted "Against the Giants" in Tales from the Yawning Portal is that WotC took the text - not from the original 1e modules, or even the G1-2-3 module, but they took it from the Silver Anniversary 2nd edition version, subtitled "The Liberation of Sterich".

I mean, I guess that version is okay, and it is really fleshed out (as 2nd edition did with all revisions to their own 1e originals) and presents a full campaign setting within the major Greyhawk campaign. Overall, I have less problems with Against the Giants than I do with Return to the Keep on the Borderlands.

But "Return to the Keep on the Borderlands" adds a LOT of things that overshadow and misdirect PCs from the thing that makes KotB what it is, and that is what it needs to be, and what it is famous for, what made D&D what it is: The exploration for, finding, exploring, return to, and inner politics of the Caves of Chaos.

That said, there are a LOT of elements in RttKotB that I would've added, but not something that I wanted to see as "official". Then again, this is right on the edge of the slippery slope between bare-bone details v. really detailed encounters. I want products with KotB level of detail. I want to be able to add the detailed encounters myself because it will be tailored to my campaign, and my campaign alone.
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by shesheyan » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:21 pm

It was supposed to come out in September 2017. I can't find it for sale with my google fu ?
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by ghendar » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:28 pm

Dread Delgath wrote:But "Return to the Keep on the Borderlands" adds a LOT of things that overshadow and misdirect PCs from the thing that makes KotB what it is, and that is what it needs to be, and what it is famous for, what made D&D what it is: The exploration for, finding, exploring, return to, and inner politics of the Caves of Chaos.
It's almost as if the people who came later and revised the module (and other modules) looked at it and said, "there's not enough here. It needs more detail." To me, that entirely misses to point of a module like B2. However, I come from an older school background. It's self evident to me. To players who came to D&D much later, they are often coming in with a completely different mindset.
Dread Delgath wrote:That said, there are a LOT of elements in RttKotB that I would've added, but not something that I wanted to see as "official". Then again, this is right on the edge of the slippery slope between bare-bone details v. really detailed encounters. I want products with KotB level of detail. I want to be able to add the detailed encounters myself because it will be tailored to my campaign, and my campaign alone.
Totally agree. Give me the tools and I'll build something with those tools. Don't build it for me.
For instance, there is a Dungeon Crawl Classic module, DCC 28 Into The Wilds that is basically a B2 inspired adventure. However, it has this overarching plot for the PCs to deal with that doesn't do much for me.
Last edited by ghendar on Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by shesheyan » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:49 pm

Dread Delgath wrote:But "Return to the Keep on the Borderlands" adds a LOT of things that overshadow and misdirect PCs from the thing that makes KotB what it is, and that is what it needs to be, and what it is famous for, what made D&D what it is: The exploration for, finding, exploring, return to, and inner politics of the Caves of Chaos.

That said, there are a LOT of elements in RttKotB that I would've added, but not something that I wanted to see as "official". Then again, this is right on the edge of the slippery slope between bare-bone details v. really detailed encounters. I want products with KotB level of detail. I want to be able to add the detailed encounters myself because it will be tailored to my campaign, and my campaign alone.
It all comes down to preference. I for one prefer more detailed encounters and story arcs because I don't have time anymore to prepare this kind of stuff. What I do is read the material and do minor edits of things I'm not found of. Its a big time saver in my case.
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by Dread Delgath » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:00 pm

shesheyan wrote:It all comes down to preference. I for one prefer more detailed encounters and story arcs because I don't have time anymore to prepare this kind of stuff. What I do is read the material and do minor edits of things I'm not found of. Its a big time saver in my case.
I rarely have time to prep these days, and manage to just barely shoehorn PC/campaign elements into published adventures. That said, I recently told my players that I've had less and less time to prep, but for some reason, I can't ad-lib like I used to, back-in-the-day. I call it old age creeping up on me, with the seasonal change, getting colder, and my desire to sleep as much as possible, my body is steadily going deeper and deeper into hibernation mode every year.

Now I have to settle for ad-libbing after the fact, and that is usually restricted to the emailed campaign updates that I send to the players after a session. However, some things just fall into place so well that I can't ignore them.

That said, and probably quite off-topic as well, there is a lot of "fluff" that I can never use as written in published modules because it will never fit the campaign or whatever off-beaten path the PCs have chosen to take.

OR - as with many well written adventures with great detail - I easily get lost in the details, and can't find a description when I need it - especially when its not part of a keyed dungeon. (Cities, mainly - even ones of my own invention!)

One thing I found that works the best for campaign building and player interaction and investment: If the DM doesn't have something fleshed out and the players are making guesses as to what is next: Let them. Don't burst their bubble by telling them they are sniffing the wrong tree. They are effectively creating their own investment into the game, and they are also building the campaign for you!

This doesn't mean you have to design adventures exactly as they describe, but take notes and develop a red herring or two based on their assumptions for future sessions, and then nudge them along in overall direction you wanted to go in the first place, but were too stonewalled to get yourself there.

The Keep on the Borderlands was the first published "sandbox" campaign settings in a 28 page module, and it set a high standard for all other self-contained sandbox campaigns. Through many trial and error sessions, my players taught me the value of ad-libbing and not sticking to the script as closely as I did during our first years.

There were no "Grand Master D&D Players" in our small town in the early 80's. We were the first, so we had to play the game wrong to find out how to play it right, and when we hit that sweet spot, it was in the wilds of The Keep on the Borderlands. When my players would intentionally do things to see how far I was willing to go to keep them playing, it became boring. I gave in to handing out magic swords at first level. I let them jump off cliffs without getting killed. I let them swim in the river in platemail without drowning. I ignored encumbrance. I gave them mountains of treasure by 3rd level. I let them skip 2nd level. Yeah, that's how we played because we were self-taught.

My players became very critical of what was actually in KotB, and began to push the envelope of what they could do and what they could get away with. They quickly found the edges of the envelope and began to push back, forcing me to abandon what was written and make stuff up on the fly. There was no way I could create the right things ahead of time in anticipation of what my Chaotic & EVIL players were going to do next. I had to wing it, and when I did, the game came alive. There was electricity in the room. My players responded by no longer being derisive assholes, and they started playing their characters with enthusiasm.

Turns out they didn't want to play against the module, they wanted to compete against ME. And it was great! They started talking to NPCs instead of running them through and looting their bodies. They developed strategies and tactics when encountering monsters. They felt the accomplishment of playing smart. They earned it.
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by shesheyan » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:23 pm

shesheyan wrote:It was supposed to come out in September 2017. I can't find it for sale with my google fu ?
I used my facebook fu and received this answer.

Quote Dungeon Crawl Classics Role Playing Game :
« The official release date right now is "early 2018." We hope to have a more precise date soon! »
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by shesheyan » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:31 pm

Dread Delgath wrote:
shesheyan wrote:It all comes down to preference. I for one prefer more detailed encounters and story arcs because I don't have time anymore to prepare this kind of stuff. What I do is read the material and do minor edits of things I'm not found of. Its a big time saver in my case.
I rarely have time to prep these days, and manage to just barely shoehorn PC/campaign elements into published adventures. That said, I recently told my players that I've had less and less time to prep, but for some reason, I can't ad-lib like I used to, back-in-the-day. I call it old age creeping up on me, with the seasonal change, getting colder, and my desire to sleep as much as possible, my body is steadily going deeper and deeper into hibernation mode every year.

Now I have to settle for ad-libbing after the fact, and that is usually restricted to the emailed campaign updates that I send to the players after a session. However, some things just fall into place so well that I can't ignore them.

That said, and probably quite off-topic as well, there is a lot of "fluff" that I can never use as written in published modules because it will never fit the campaign or whatever off-beaten path the PCs have chosen to take.

OR - as with many well written adventures with great detail - I easily get lost in the details, and can't find a description when I need it - especially when its not part of a keyed dungeon. (Cities, mainly - even ones of my own invention!)

One thing I found that works the best for campaign building and player interaction and investment: If the DM doesn't have something fleshed out and the players are making guesses as to what is next: Let them. Don't burst their bubble by telling them they are sniffing the wrong tree. They are effectively creating their own investment into the game, and they are also building the campaign for you!

This doesn't mean you have to design adventures exactly as they describe, but take notes and develop a red herring or two based on their assumptions for future sessions, and then nudge them along in overall direction you wanted to go in the first place, but were too stonewalled to get yourself there.

The Keep on the Borderlands was the first published "sandbox" campaign settings in a 28 page module, and it set a high standard for all other self-contained sandbox campaigns. Through many trial and error sessions, my players taught me the value of ad-libbing and not sticking to the script as closely as I did during our first years.
I do a lot of module editing on the fly as the players progress. Some scenes are shorter or longer. I go with the flow of the players. I've dropped some portions of Hoard of Dragon Queen to keep the pacing fun and engaging.

As for getting older. I find using a therapeutic «daylight» lamp every morning for 15 minutes helps me shake off the grogginess of winter. Mid-October to mid-April.
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by Dread Delgath » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:51 am

A little light therapy (pardon the pun) might be just what this old DM needs right now. :cool:
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by stebehil » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:40 pm

FWIW, here is an update: http://goodman-games.com/blog/2018/01/1 ... rderlands/
The book will probably have around 380 pages in the end, with two scans of the two modules each, from different printings (like the early B2 with Dex stats for monsters). Well, one scan each would have been plenty IMO. And each module gets a 5e conversion as close to the original as possible, and additional material for each as well. No price given yet, but at that page count, I would guess it will be 50 Euros over here at least.

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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by AllanP » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:28 pm

No price given, and no release date either *sigh!*

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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by night_druid » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:32 pm

Not to distract too much from the discussion, but the original B2: Keep on the Borderlands is now in POD format :)

Keep on the Borderlands
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by ghendar » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:46 pm

AllanP wrote:No price given, and no release date either *sigh!*

regards,
They probably don't want to scare anyone off just yet. This thing ain't going to be cheap.
I'll stick with my original copies
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by Dread Delgath » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:44 pm

Wow! I hope that they can do these two modules justice, considering that Chris Doyle (writer) still doesn't even know that B1 & B2 were NOT written for 1e "AD&D". :mrgreen:

He keeps referring to 1e during the interview, not Basic, B/X, or BECMI, the actual 'editions' B1 & B2 (collectively) were written for. But at least it does not appear (on my first read-through) that they are including material from "Return to the Keep on the Borderlands" - which was a Silver Anniversary product for 2e. :cool:
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by Havard » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:02 pm

Can't wait to get my hands on this one. I love collectors items like this which also expands on the originals.

Wish they could do something like this for the X-series.

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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by Robin » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:30 pm

even though it is a 5th edition (i'd always prefer BECMI, and hen AD&D1 &2 above any other edition)...i still desire it too....5th can be converted back to BECMI they say so....lets try...
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by shesheyan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:47 pm

I'll pass... if I want B1+B2 I'll just buy the pdfs on drivethru. I doubt I ever will... I'm no longer interested in classic fantasy.
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by stebehil » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:08 pm

night_druid wrote:Not to distract too much from the discussion, but the original B2: Keep on the Borderlands is now in POD format :)

Keep on the Borderlands
And cheap, too. Print and pdf for 5 $. But then, this would be my 4th copy of the adventure - so, I´ll pass that.

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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by ghendar » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:17 am

Havard wrote:Can't wait to get my hands on this one. I love collectors items like this which also expands on the originals.

Wish they could do something like this for the X-series.

-Havard
Have you checked out any of the info listed here?
A lot has been written over the years about B1 (and B2). I have nothing against Goodman Games but whatever they come up with is going to be filled with 5e-isms and thus won't be of much value for me.
Pacesetter Games even did a follow up to B1.
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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by Havard » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:08 pm

ghendar wrote:
Havard wrote:Can't wait to get my hands on this one. I love collectors items like this which also expands on the originals.

Wish they could do something like this for the X-series.

-Havard
Have you checked out any of the info listed here?
A lot has been written over the years about B1 (and B2). I have nothing against Goodman Games but whatever they come up with is going to be filled with 5e-isms and thus won't be of much value for me.
Pacesetter Games even did a follow up to B1.

Nice links!

Since I am also a fan of 5E and currently running a game with those rules, that will be an added bonus. :)

But I am also interested in the essays they are planning to include in this one.

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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by Havard » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:41 pm


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Re: [5E] B1+B2 Collectors Edition - awesome for Mystara fans

Post by ghendar » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:41 pm

That's a nice cover. So iconic
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