Full 5e conversion?

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Coronoides
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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by Coronoides » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:36 am

The Gnome Cunning and Magic resistance traits where two of the very few traits that will be drastically re-priced in light of evidence from Volo’s Guide to Monster in the upcoming revision of the system.

Gnome Base: Int+2 (4), Small size (-1), Speed 25ft (-3), Advantage on Int saves against magic (1), Advantage on Wis saves
against magic (1), Advantage on Cha saves against magic (1). Lesser trait: darvision 60ft.

Forest Gnome: Dex+1 (2), cantrip (2), speak with small beasts (5). Lesser traits:nil
Rock Gnome: Con+1 (2), artificer’s lore (1), tinker (6). Lesser traits: nil
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by rabindranath72 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:02 pm

I have been looking into this as well, but as always, I tend to follow the Keep It Simple Stupid philosophy; I simply don't have the time nor the patience for inventing new stuff if existing stuff works "sufficiently well".
My default implementation for race-as-class (without taking into account the GAZ stuff) would be like:
(Hill) Dwarves are Fighters/Battlemasters
(Lightfoot) Halflings are Fighters/Champions
(High) Elves are Fighters/Eldritch Knights

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by Coronoides » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:32 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:I have been looking into this as well, but as always, I tend to follow the Keep It Simple Stupid philosophy; I simply don't have the time nor the patience for inventing new stuff if existing stuff works "sufficiently well".
My default implementation for race-as-class (without taking into account the GAZ stuff) would be like:
(Hill) Dwarves are Fighters/Battlemasters
(Lightfoot) Halflings are Fighters/Champions
(High) Elves are Fighters/Eldritch Knights
Totally, agree. My work is for when there isn’t existing stuff that works sufficiently well.
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by stebehil » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:39 pm

Thats fine, of course. IMO, the Eldritch Knight isn´t an appropriate representation of the BECMI elf, but YMMV, as always. Whatever works for you. I think that dwarf and battlemaster and halfling and champion is quite a good match, however.

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by rabindranath72 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:48 am

stebehil wrote:Thats fine, of course. IMO, the Eldritch Knight isn´t an appropriate representation of the BECMI elf, but YMMV, as always. Whatever works for you. I think that dwarf and battlemaster and halfling and champion is quite a good match, however.
What would be your simplest approach to the Elf class using existing material? My rationale is that High Elves provide a spell at first level, and the Fighter class covers their fighting ability. Then at 3rd level they fully develop into "spellcasting warriors". There's a dead 2nd level, but then again, spellcasting was never the primary function of Elves, so I don't consider it a huge loss.
In D&D 3.0 I would make Elves multiclass Ranger/Wizards (using the multiclassing from 1st level rules which appeared only in the 3.0 DMG.) This would cover also their acquisition of druidic spells per GAZ5; again, not an exact match, but "good enough".

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by stebehil » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:37 pm

I wrote some ideas about the elf conversion here: http://pandius.com/bto5eelf.html
Mind you, none of the ideas is really simple. The simplest idea might be the Gestalt option - allowing progression in fighter and wizard classes simultaneously and requiring double xp, with some houseruling, like casting in full armor, thrown in.
The Eldritch Knight has a too limited spell selection imo. The idea has its own merits, but is too limited to fully represent the BECMI elf.

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by rabindranath72 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:30 am

stebehil wrote:I wrote some ideas about the elf conversion here: http://pandius.com/bto5eelf.html
Mind you, none of the ideas is really simple. The simplest idea might be the Gestalt option - allowing progression in fighter and wizard classes simultaneously and requiring double xp, with some houseruling, like casting in full armor, thrown in.
The Eldritch Knight has a too limited spell selection imo. The idea has its own merits, but is too limited to fully represent the BECMI elf.
Thanks for the link. I see we have reasoned along similar lines. In general I don't like the idea of having to meddle with mechanics; I simply don't have the time, and in my experience, the returns are minimal (apart from the pleasure I might derive in tweaking as a purely academic thing).
Using mathematical jargon, I'd say I consider a "zero order" approximation good enough for my games. There's also the issue that if I want to recruit players for a game, I don't want to have to explain tons of new stuff; if I advertise a 5e game, the players are rightfully expecting a 5e game. That's why I consider the High Elf Eldritch Knight a good compromise: it keeps the more abstract, essential elements of the Elf: fights and cast spells, but it will never reach the same spellcasting power of a human wizard, or the fighting prowess of a human fighter. YMMV and all that jazz.

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by Rogerd » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:53 pm

First post, so woot!

Have you given any thoughts to converting to Diceless - mainly the current Lords of Gossamer stuff?
It would be so much faster, and easier.
Remove the Paragon stat block, and instead replace with numbers, something they toyed with in one of the Gossamer character books.

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by stebehil » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:22 am

Rogerd wrote:First post, so woot!

Have you given any thoughts to converting to Diceless - mainly the current Lords of Gossamer stuff?
It would be so much faster, and easier.
Remove the Paragon stat block, and instead replace with numbers, something they toyed with in one of the Gossamer character books.
Welcome to these boards, Rogerd!

I have never really looked into diceless RPGs, to be honest. This might be an interesting change from the D&D/d20 system, but within this thread, I would want to keep it to converting the Known World/Mystara from BD&D/AD&D2 to D&D5, and not adding yet another system, however worthwhile it might be.

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by Rogerd » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:23 pm

stebehil wrote:Welcome to these boards, Rogerd!
Thanks man!
stebehil wrote:I have never really looked into diceless RPGs, to be honest. This might be an interesting change from the D&D/d20 system, but within this thread, I would want to keep it to converting the Known World/Mystara from BD&D/AD&D2 to D&D5, and not adding yet another system, however worthwhile it might be.
I understand, and quite frankly the 5e system takes all of the headaches, and makes optimising that is prevalent in PF - as any example, less likely.
For one, I'm a big fan of Heroes of the Orient - 'tis such a shame they weren't allowed to just convert L5R as seems to be the thing nowadays with a lot of settings being converted into others, Amethyst being a prime example of this.

I'm currently using that for most stuff nowadays and am working on a docket for ease of conversion.
I'm hoping to run a PF game using it on another board, so we'll see how it goes.

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by stebehil » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:26 pm

Rereading my ideas to the elf again, I would use the following idea to represent BECMI elves in 5e:

For starters, every elf would be able to cast a wizard cantrip, no matter what his or her class is. (standard 5e High Elf feature)

The fighter/wizard class combo would be a Gestalt character, getting abilities of both classes and a d8 hd. I was thinking about requiring minimal stats, but I think I would not - this ability makes elves truly special. Still, they would have to earn double xp to advance.

At 10th level, advancement as fighter would be possible as default, but wizard stopping at 10th level. If a character wants to advance as wizard, he can do so instead if he has the training. I was thinking of requiring a feat to do so, but this seems too much to ask. I would require to earn double xp to advance a level beyond 10 in any case.

The special spells given in the Alfheim GAZ would either necessitate an arcane tradition to allow access or at least a feat - not sure which one is better.

It seems that spellcasting in armor is only a matter of proficiency in 5e, not something mutually exclusive because of the flow of arcane energies or somesuch. So, the Gestalt elf (or any multiclass concept) can cast arcane spells easily, requiring no special consideration.

Somehow, I miss a generalist wizard in 5e. All wizards being specialists does not keep the tradition of the game intact IMO.

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by RobJN » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:16 pm

stebehil wrote:Rereading my ideas to the elf again, I would use the following idea to represent BECMI elves in 5e:

For starters, every elf would be able to cast a wizard cantrip, no matter what his or her class is. (standard 5e High Elf feature)

The fighter/wizard class combo would be a Gestalt character, getting abilities of both classes and a d8 hd. I was thinking about requiring minimal stats, but I think I would not - this ability makes elves truly special. Still, they would have to earn double xp to advance.

At 10th level, advancement as fighter would be possible as default, but wizard stopping at 10th level. If a character wants to advance as wizard, he can do so instead if he has the training. I was thinking of requiring a feat to do so, but this seems too much to ask. I would require to earn double xp to advance a level beyond 10 in any case.

The special spells given in the Alfheim GAZ would either necessitate an arcane tradition to allow access or at least a feat - not sure which one is better.

It seems that spellcasting in armor is only a matter of proficiency in 5e, not something mutually exclusive because of the flow of arcane energies or somesuch. So, the Gestalt elf (or any multiclass concept) can cast arcane spells easily, requiring no special consideration.

Somehow, I miss a generalist wizard in 5e. All wizards being specialists does not keep the tradition of the game intact IMO.
It almost sounds as if breaking into Gazetteer territory could require something like a racial feat after certain levels....
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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by Coronoides » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:46 pm

Some of the UA racial feats linked above made it through play testing and are canonised in Xanathar's. Others did not make the cut. For anyone reading and thinking about this my race design document (see signature) also covered racial feats.
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by Coronoides » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:58 pm

stebehil wrote:Rereading my ideas to the elf again, I would use the following idea to represent BECMI elves in 5e:

For starters, every elf would be able to cast a wizard cantrip, no matter what his or her class is. (standard 5e High Elf feature)

The fighter/wizard class combo would be a Gestalt character, getting abilities of both classes and a d8 hd. I was thinking about requiring minimal stats, but I think I would not - this ability makes elves truly special. Still, they would have to earn double xp to advance.

At 10th level, advancement as fighter would be possible as default, but wizard stopping at 10th level. If a character wants to advance as wizard, he can do so instead if he has the training. I was thinking of requiring a feat to do so, but this seems too much to ask. I would require to earn double xp to advance a level beyond 10 in any case.

The special spells given in the Alfheim GAZ would either necessitate an arcane tradition to allow access or at least a feat - not sure which one is better.

It seems that spellcasting in armor is only a matter of proficiency in 5e, not something mutually exclusive because of the flow of arcane energies or somesuch. So, the Gestalt elf (or any multiclass concept) can cast arcane spells easily, requiring no special consideration.

Somehow, I miss a generalist wizard in 5e. All wizards being specialists does not keep the tradition of the game intact IMO.
I like the basis for your thinking but there are some issues. This is problematic because 5e attempts to make all levels in all classes of equal value (unlike 2e and presumably BECMI). A 5th level made the way you propose is more like a 10th level with very poor hit points. Her damage per round will be too high to play in published adventures built for 5th level characters and the elf will smash enemies before the other 5th level PCs in the party bet to do much. I'd suggest every odd level is fighter and every even numbered level is wizard using the multi class rules but waiving prerequisites. You could also fiddle with the mix of proficiencies granted a little. At 11th level end this odds and evens progression and advance in fighter only.
P.s. I also miss the generalist wizard.
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by stebehil » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:30 pm

Hm. You might be on to something there. Comparing the stats between a 5th-level fighter and a 10th-level fighter (using the pregens from WotC), there you see that the differences in offensive capabilities are indeed minor, due to the much lower prof. bonus compared to the old attack tables or even THAC0. They both have two regular attacks, as this comes at level 5. And while +7 compared to +9 as the attack bonus does make a difference in 5e, it is not all that big. Furthermore, to reach 5/5 levels with a Gestalt character requires 13,000 xp, with 14,000 xp being only level 6 for a single class character. Sure, this difference mounts with advancing levels, but within the single-digit levels, it is probably too powerful with only minor drawbacks. Upon reaching level 10, the elf would be nearly at level 8/8. This might indeed cause some serious game balance issues. Maybe your idea of waiving the multiclass requirements for elven fighter/wizards is a really simple yet balanced solution. (and all my ideas are for naught, but such is life). Besides, come to think of it, a 1st level wizard in 5e has 3 cantrips and 2 first-level spells, which is quite a bit more than being able to cast a single spell.

Still, if I look at the elves in Glantri and Alfheim, the combination of considerable fighting ability with spellcasting is a strong image there, but this might be remedied by using a feat or two to enhance the fighting skills of wizards, maybe. EDIT: Well, leaving out parts of my thoughts does not help any. With Glantri and Alfheim, the elves there are probably predominantly wizards (ok, besides some elvish warriors in Alfheim), with minimal or no fighter training. While they could always take a single fighter level to learn the basics, doing so would hamper their magical prowess, even if only slightly. In Glantri especially, this level could make all the difference. OTOH, elves are proficient with a few martial weapons anyway (I would replace the longsword with the rapier for Belcadiz elves), so adding a feat or two (maybe one for free) might go a long way.

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by Coronoides » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:05 am

I’ve been trying to recreate 2e kits for 5e for my Council of Wryms project. My elf war wizard might be helpful (or not).

Elf war-wizards (CBE91) are members of a dragon lord’s military forces tasked with the defence of a vassal
settlement in the dragon’s absence. As well as being wizards these are military officers trained in weapons and
tactics (choose the School of Evocation and take spells with obvious combat effects, the soldier background, and
take the weapon master feat choosing four weapons from this list lance, longbow, shortbow, dagger, any one type of
sword(can be taken multiple times for different swords) finally choose the martial adept feat).

Now Xanathr’s is out I’ll probably get switch Evoker for the new War Wizard archetype. CBE = complete book of elves 2e
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz4zql2yhlyut ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by rabindranath72 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:34 am

Coronoides wrote: I like the basis for your thinking but there are some issues. This is problematic because 5e attempts to make all levels in all classes of equal value (unlike 2e and presumably BECMI). A 5th level made the way you propose is more like a 10th level with very poor hit points. Her damage per round will be too high to play in published adventures built for 5th level characters and the elf will smash enemies before the other 5th level PCs in the party bet to do much. I'd suggest every odd level is fighter and every even numbered level is wizard using the multi class rules but waiving prerequisites. You could also fiddle with the mix of proficiencies granted a little. At 11th level end this odds and evens progression and advance in fighter only.
P.s. I also miss the generalist wizard.
I did use a similar scheme in some 3.0 games, with elves starting as multiclass Ranger/Wizards at 1st level, with Ranger as primary class (in 3.0 you can have 1st level multiclass characters since there's rules for "apprentice" levels.) Then at 2nd level the character would gain another Wizard level, then Ranger at 3rd level etc. The eventual acquisition of Ranger spells also helps model the acquisition of cleric/druid-like spells as shown in GAZ6.

In the 5e case I wouldn't worry about waiving prerequisites: after all, you need to have average intelligence in BECMI to play an Elf.

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by Melestrua » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:44 pm

Hi All,

I'm just new here, but interested in this project.

I grew up with the BECMI set (all 5 boxes) and a subset of the gazetteers. After a long hiatus, my kids have now got me back into D&D, and 5e is close enough in feel to BECMI I'm working with that. But I love the Mystara setting and I'm basing a super-campaign there (about to start the second parallel campaign). My notes are up at https://melestruasmystara.obsidianportal.com/

I've got two threads running at the moment
* one in Karameikos, starting in Threshold
* one in Darokin, probably starting in a village/town in the north-east

I have generally taken the approach of using Mystara as inspiration for the campaign, rather than trying to achieve verisimilitude within the 5e ruleset, so where I have allowed race/class combinations, I allow standard 5e PHB/DMG rules. It's just simpler that way... I do restrict what people are allowed to play, though, based on my feel of the country.

For Karameikos, I have allowed Human, Dwarf, Elf and Hin, with Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, Bard, Ranger, since they're supposedly living in Threshold. Going forward I might allow Gnome Rogue/Bard, Human Druid, Human/Dwarf Barbarian, Human Sorcerer or Human Warlock if the player can spin me a very convincing tale...

For Darokin, it seems reasonable to allow a wider set of character options since the land is more of a melting pot. I'm going for Human, Dwarf, Elf, Half-elf, Hin or Gnome, and allowing most classes. Definitely no Tieflings or Dragon born, and no Half-Orcs or Drow.

I've looked through Glen's impressive document, and I may take some of the additional backgrounds - in particular the merchant stood out to me. I'm also taking in some of the Karameikos development - I like the 3:2 conversion and its application to Patriarch Sherlane in particular, and I'll probably do some more similar conversions. But it looks like I'm pretty much on my own so far with developing Darokin - is that right, or have I missed something?

What's the process for sharing what I develop? Are other people interested, or should I just do it for my own use? Correspondingly, what's the best way of keeping up with how others are managing?

Thanks,

Ian (Melestrua)

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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by RobJN » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:59 pm

Melestrua wrote:Hi All,
Hi, Melestrua, and welcome to the boards!
Melestrua wrote:But it looks like I'm pretty much on my own so far with developing Darokin - is that right, or have I missed something?
I am by no means all-knowing, but I don't recall being hit over the head with nation-specific development of Darokin, outside of whatever Glen has in his conversion document. You may, indeed, be on your own (for now), but you may want to hit up the Vaults of Pandius just to double-check.
Melestrua wrote:What's the process for sharing what I develop? Are other people interested, or should I just do it for my own use? Correspondingly, what's the best way of keeping up with how others are managing?
I'd suggest starting your own topic here, or perhaps blogging (or posting here, then republishing that material into blog posts). If you do post it here, Shawn will more than likely assimilate it into the Vaults at some point. He's scooped up much of my material, but I usually spare him having to (re)format/edit my work by sending compilations to him directly (so he can concentrate on gathering up more material)

To keep up, you might want to use the "Subscribe" feature (down there at the bottom of the web page), and you'll get email alerts whenever a new unread post goes up (but only for the first, so you don't get spammed if it's a busy topic). I've also plugged the main Mystara forum into my RSS feeder (instructions here), which updates several times a day, keeping me up to date on topics to which I haven't subscribed.
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Re: Full 5e conversion?

Post by CommanderCrud » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:47 pm

I'm running a 5e Mystara game, running almost entirely straight from old modules converting as little as possible on the fly (currently B10). As for race/class stuff, mostly just a few restrictions based on location (they started in Threshold, of course!). For example, elves, no trance sleep and max level 10 in any one class.

I did adopt some DMG variants, a short rest is one night's sleep, a long rest is 5 downtime days.

Cantrips are limited to spellcasting modifier times per short rest, but you can train 30 downtime days to double that limit, our party's wizard has done 4 times now. Also, you had to choose a sphere. I've mapped two schools to each sphere. If casting a spell from a sphere in opposition to your own, the spell is treated as one spell level higher.

To go up a level, must train 30 days/class feature gained, doubled if without a mentor.

Monsters give 1/10th normal XP, but also give XP awards for completing adventures and other "story" goals.

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