Ruined Temple near Shireton

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xoronthran
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Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by xoronthran » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:52 pm

In X10, there is a modified Grecian-style ruined temple in a gnarled wood 10 miles from Shireton that holds part of the Crystal Dagger of Cymorakk. Any thoughts on the origin of this temple?

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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by Sturm » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:15 am

Taymoran or Doulakki probably. Before the Five Shires were settled by halflings in 1300 BC they were inhabited by elves (Gentle Folk) who however arrived only after the Glantrian cataclysm of 1700 BC. Before that date the area was likely part of Taymora. Their culture was imagined by fans as similar to ancient Crete, see also here: http://pandius.com/taymor.html
Doulakki instead are fan created greek-like cultures of Southern Brun, founders of Cynidicea and other canon cities, see here: http://pandius.com/cynidgaz.html, inspired by the fact that the ancient Traldar in the Hollow World were modelled on ancient Achaeans. It is likely some greek-like descendants of Taymora lived in the Five Shires too before the elves and maybe even with them and the first halfling. They may have been destroyed by the later humanoid invasions.
There is also Hesperia, Land of the Setting Sun by Giulio Caroletti from Threshold Magazine issue 12 about ancient greek-like cultures (in this case in Thyatis, but is not far) http://pandius.com/hesperia.html
and much more fan sources :)

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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by Havard » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:47 pm

Nice ideas from Sturm in this thread. The Gentle Folk elves were the first that came to my mind. Dwarves is also a possibility during the time when the Five Shires were occupied by Dwarves.

Of course the temple could also be of Halfling origin.

Although the Doulakki and Hesperia ideas are interesting, you could also just make the temple Traldar in origins.

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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by bayonetbrant » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:22 pm

Could've also been the Milenians
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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by Robin » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:11 pm

I think Taymora would best fit the bill, as Karameikos also has several similar Ruins hidden or forgotten all over, like the temple on the Island of Lost Dreams in B10(-TSR9149-D&D-Mystara-Night´s Dark Terror) location W11 on the map of this module
detailed maps were reproduced here
(Image or Image

Clearly the Greek style s recognizable...
Maybe the Shireton location is similar, and similarly guarded by Fairies...these critters seem to like to meddle with artifacts where they can to prevent them to fall in wrong hands (thus against them)...the same could well apply to the Dagger of Cymorakk.



Btw
if looking to the description in combination with the canon map. the locations possibilities of a gnarled wood are limited. 5shires map
as there are some thin wooded areas NE of Stillpool, or on the otherside of the Itchypool River just at the most southern edge of the Fishtickle Woods...only this thick wood within the 10 mile radius of Shireton could be an old gnarled woodland able to hold the temple....(this would be the 2nd thick wooded hex south of Shadowgates, and the temple would then exist at its most southern border.)However, even this temple would be known and discovered earlier by the inquisitive/curious Hin, except when buried or hidden by magic (Again Fairies...hint hint)
Last edited by Robin on Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by RobJN » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:25 pm

My map-fu is weak, especially with regards to pre-AC1000 versions, but Robin's comment has me wondering if the temple is far enough north to have once been part of Southern Grondheim, and likely in the territories nominally controlled by the Troll Queen?
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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by Robin » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:29 pm

RobJN wrote:My map-fu is weak, especially with regards to pre-AC1000 versions, but Robin's comment has me wondering if the temple is far enough north to have once been part of Southern Grondheim, and likely in the territories nominally controlled by the Troll Queen?
As far as I remember, these where more around the Broken Lands than 5 Shires. ;)

When I look at the Known World map, it is typical that the temple on the Island of Lost Dreams and the Temple noted within 10 miles of Shireton (as possible only as I noted) are roughly the same distance from the ocean.....maybe these were a chain and reason not more was destroyed in the 1750 BC disaster??? Maybe these were 'fed' or "Charged' by the stored artifacts?
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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by stebehil » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:32 am

The temple in X10 has its guardians described, and within the BECMI rules, these are reason enough for the hin to leave it alone. The guardians are 30 (!) spectres, which are fearsome foes to the Hin indeed, with no clerics and considering the draining of two levels with each hit. This is stressed by the description that there are 6 human and the rest halfling spectres, the latter being the victims of the former. Even characters within the suggested level range (10-14) will have their hands quite full with these guardians.

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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by Robin » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:45 am

I just reread it in X10. The hin spectres could even be some unsuccesful but stil curious/adventurous hin which became an addition to the original human spectres when failing their attempt.
Yet this does not block my suggested idea of the initial intended use tempels as a chain to succesfully protect from an increased damage in the 1750BC event.
Even the spectres could have originally have been lawful, but so bound to their quest they perished, walloped in envy and despair until becoming spectres, still bound to the location, guarding the item.
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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by Havard » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:05 pm

This is an incredibly interesting discussion.

Was the Temple originally constructed as a temple to Thanatos? Or was it originally devoted to more benign deities and then corrupted?

When was the temple destroyed? If Taymoran in origin, could it have continued to exist after the fall of Taymora?

Could the Traladaran Three have been involved in its destruction?

Why was the piece of the dagger placed there?

What is Cymorakk? A place? a person?

Do the undead guardians serve the Master, his deity or allies, or are they charged with protecting the dagger/temple for other reasons?

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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by stebehil » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:52 pm

The adventure states that this is a "forgotten, desecrated temple ruin" in a "modified Grecian style" with one large (100´ x 100´) room (much larger than the one from B10, apparently). The original human spectres were sent by the master "to terrorize the Halflings into submission". There is nothing said about the temple origins, but the word desecrated lets me think of it as once being dedicated to a benign entity. If it is a forgotten ruin, it should be quite ancient. As there is a formidable treasure in there as well, there should be some history to it - if the treasure dates back to the time before it was forgotten (which I would assume - the spectres would not have brought any treasure with them, nor have it collected in the Shires), then it should have been quite an important place. The size points to this as well - the temple room is larger than that of the Parthenon in Athen.

I would think that the Master knows exactly what is in there and how dangerous it can be to him. Terrorizing somebody into submission while letting the monsters lair exactly there does not seem to be the wisest of moves, however. If the plan fails, the opposition is led to the point where the Master should not want them to be.

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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by Sturm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:18 pm

Cymorakk is mentioned in X4, X5 and X10 as "the crystal dagger of", the only think which can destroy the "Soul Gem of Thanatos" and age the Master to final (?) death. Fans have speculated he may have been the mortal identity of Asterius or an elven hero. I had notes in my History of Western Brun in Threshold issue #17 about this. See also: http://search.freefind.com/servlet/free ... +ALL+words

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Re: Ruined Temple near Shireton

Post by Chimpman » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:05 am

Robin wrote:
RobJN wrote:My map-fu is weak, especially with regards to pre-AC1000 versions, but Robin's comment has me wondering if the temple is far enough north to have once been part of Southern Grondheim, and likely in the territories nominally controlled by the Troll Queen?
As far as I remember, these where more around the Broken Lands than 5 Shires. ;)

When I look at the Known World map, it is typical that the temple on the Island of Lost Dreams and the Temple noted within 10 miles of Shireton (as possible only as I noted) are roughly the same distance from the ocean.....maybe these were a chain and reason not more was destroyed in the 1750 BC disaster??? Maybe these were 'fed' or "Charged' by the stored artifacts?
Slight aside, Grondheim is a tricky one - it's fairly long, irregular borders stretch from proto-Glantri down to the northern borders of Taymora.

Compare these two maps:
Southern Grondheim
with
Five Shires

The BC 2300 "Aterok/Curacanti" Mountains is the modern day Cruth Mountains. Modern day Shireton would be along the eastern edge of the second small lake southwest of Pampawasi. In BC 2300 this is more of a wilderness area controlled by Grondheim, but once you get to BC 2000 to BC 1700, this is probably very solidly Taymoran territory. Perhaps one of the Taymoran/Giant controlled city states (after Taymora conquers the remnants of Grondheim).

Anyway, I think I'm agreeing with Robin and others who say Taymora makes a good original fit for the temple.
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