Klintest has three outflows

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Mike
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Klintest has three outflows

Post by Mike » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:26 pm

Lake Klintest has THREE outflows:
1. The Hrap River to the Krandai River of Ethengar and ultimately to the Streel and Malpheggi
2. The Kur River to the Vestfjord River of Vestland
3. The Klintest River to the Landersfjord River of Vestland

Some maps show all three rivers as outflows to the sea. Some show either the Kur or the Klintest as inflows, not crossing the mountains to Vestland. All maps agree that the Hrap river flows out to Ethengar.

Realistically, there should be only one river flowing out. This is a common but annoying world-building mistake. Water will choose the lowest course, that course will have the strongest flow and the fastest erosion, and eventually capture the entire outflow. The only way multiple rivers could drain the same lake is either (1) temporarily to drain excessive lake volume, or (2) some mechanism that prevents erosion. Also, three outflows are excessive for a lake with only two inflows; it could be draining faster than it is filling.

Has anyone dealt with this by altering the maps, or else explained it in some way?

Some ideas:
  • One river is connected by a canal with locks. It is not a natural watercourse. That would establish a major trade route through the mountains. I know some have suggested this for the Kur/Vestfjord river, and it also parallels a highway; but if the dwarves went to so much trouble to build a canal to Vestland, why not also build a canal from Evemur to Smaggeft? Such a canal would connect the two great lakes and benefit internal transport, and it also seems less work than a canal to Vestland.
  • Maybe the dwarves dammed the Hrap to raise the lake level, causing it to overflow through natural gaps to Vestland. Chaning water levels seems a bad idea in a kingdom riddied with tunnels that could easily flood.
  • One river (either the Kur or Klintest) originates in the mountains, from a gate to the plane of water located atop a ridge. Water flows two directions, into Rockhome and into Vestland. These rivers need not be level, and would flow down both sides of the ridge.
  • Klintest was once an icecap, and at least three glaciers flowed out where the rivers are now, creating deep valleys.
  • Klintest is fed by a water elemental gate. The dwarves maintain three stable outflows to prevent the eastern half of the kingdom from flooding.
  • Instead of an elemental gate, maybe Klintest is fed by stray water magic conjured by the elves, a side effect of the greening of Alfheim?
  • Maybe the Klintest Monster likes to dig?
Another idea:

Klintest was once a simple mountain lake that drained through the Klintest River. The Kur flowed in, and there was nothing where the Hrap is now. The Klintest flows through a narrow and deep gorge with many cataracts. (The gorge was formed by a glacier, earthquake, or whatever.) There is a natural gap in the mountains at Evekarr and the road takes advantage of it, since the Klintest is impassable and prone to rockfalls.

At some point a water gate opened in the lake and it began to fill. The Klintest river swelled, but could not expand in the narrow gorge, so got deeper and more violent. Heavy erosion in the Klintest Gorge caused a landslide, partially blocking it and causing further backup. As a result the lake rose until Kurdal and Smaggeft were threatened with flooding. To prevent this, an overflow channel was created north into Ethengar to protect the cities. It was successful, and since it is cut in bedrock there is no serious erosion. It was expected that the Hrap would dry up in summer, but there proved to be sufficient flow to create a navigable river year-round.

Wanting to export heavy ore to Vestland, and import bulk foodstuffs, the dwarves built a canal with locks through the Evekarr Gap. Additional locks on the Hrap allow riverboats to travel by an inland route from Vestland to Ethengar. Were it not for the broken lands, riverboats could make it all the way to Athenos and Akesoli. The king of Rockhome would love to capture and tax the inland trade route.

Just batting around ideas. My inclination is to block the Klintest and the Kur, so that the only outflow is the Hrap.

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Khedrac » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:30 am

Thsi one has been bugging me since the Trail Maps first came out (though I only spotted 2 outflows, I will have to go back and check more carefully).

Going on memory, if you look very closely at the river that links the lake to the sea on the East there is a little tail off it into the mountains in Rockhome. This to me means that the river has its source on that tail and somehow (perhaps it flows up against magically strong rock?) the river splits, one channel flowing east to the sea and the other west to Lake K as an inflow.
That, or, there are two rivers flowing parallel but close together up to that point (narrow ridge between them or something) where they split...

I never checked this against the individual Gaz maps, but if my memory is right, that's one outflow eliminated...
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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Thorf » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:40 am

I solved part of this problem in my updated maps of Rockhome and the Northern Reaches. Here are my notes from those maps:

Hrap River — GAZ6’s description of Lake Klintest makes it sound like this river is a tributary of Lake Klintest, whereas in fact it appears to be the lake’s main outflow. Referring to the X1/Expert Set Known World map, it appears that Lake Klintest was originally intended to have two outflows: the Hrap and the Kur/Vestfjord. GAZ6 adds a source for the river, without indicating which way the river was intended to be flowing — whether it bifurcates at the source, and flows into Lake Klintest; or the source simply joins the river flowing northwest into Ethengar.

Klintest River — GAZ6’s map had this river bifurcating shortly after its source, with courses flowing both east and west. This was reproduced in all later maps, including GAZ7 and TM2. However, reference to the original Known World map in X1/Expert Set shows that this river was never meant to be connected to the river flowing east into Vestland. The updated map therefore cuts this link, reverting the Klintest River into its X1/Expert Set form.

Kur River — described in GAZ6 but not labelled on the map, nor on TM1. However it was marked on GAZ7. This river presumably bifurcates shortly after the source, with the Kur flowing southwest into Lake Klintest, and the Vestfjord flowing northeast into Vestland. Another way to look at it is that the Kur flows out of Lake Klintest, joining the Vestfjord shortly after its source. It’s not clear which is correct.

Landersfjord — this name is shared by the fjord itself, a river, a town, and a dominion. However, GAZ7’s map has the river taking a sharp bend south from the fjord instead of going west to meet the town. Instead, the town sits on the river that feeds Marsfjord. But GAZ7 DM Book page 17a-b states: “Landersfjord: This frontier and trade town on the Overland Trade Route is also a deep-water port on the Landersfjord River.” Moreover, reference to X1’s Known World map shows that the rivers here were obscured by labels on the original map. The Atlas concludes that Landersfjord River should indeed flow into Landersfjord itself, and the town should also be situated on that river. The updated map therefore cuts Marsjord off at Haverfjord, instead connecting Landersfjord river and fjord.

So basically the Klintest River was an error, and should flow unambiguously into the lake. But the rest I have not sorted out. The Kur is the problem as far as I'm concerned.

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Demnwlf » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:15 pm

I was looking into this too. In Gaz 6 page 46 it says the Hrap, Makress and Everest rivers flow into Lake Klinest. While the Kur and Klinest rivers are outflowing. The Kur flows out to the Sea of Dawn the Klinest flows into a gorge in the Makkress Range.
In the case of the Hrap river the map shows a T intersection where it bifurcates and flows both ways. Maybe this started as natural or the dwarves had a helping hand. Also looking at the maps can sometimes be of little help depending on what you want to do with the rivers there are a few differences between them. (Original maps).

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Thorf » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:13 am

The problem with going by GAZ6's text is that it shows absolutely no knowledge of how rivers work whatsoever.

As an example, look at the Larodar River. On the map, it's clear that it takes the Nithia River as a tributary before flowing into Lake Stahl.

Checking the text on pages 46-47, the Larodar is fine: "This river forms in the southern Altan Tepe Mountains and feeds into Lake Stahl."

But the Nithia River is not at all fine: "This branch of the Larodar River flows, cold and fast, for a few miles, then enigmatically ends in a large mountain-valley pool from which it does not emerge again.

The problem with this interpretation is that rivers rarely bifurcate like this.

I realise that this is supposed to be the River Nithia, diverted underground by the Immortals to starve the Great Alasiyan Basin of water. But the same "diverting the headwaters" can be achieved simply by having the River Nithia flow north into the Larodar and then Lake Stahl, without any rivers splitting or other weirdness.

Back to Lake Klintest... I'd argue that, if possible, we should avoid lake bifurcation — even if it means overriding GAZ6's text in places. So we only want one outflow from the lake. That being the case, the Hrap seems like the best candidate, with its source north of the lake instead becoming a tributary.

The Klintest River clearly flows into the lake, not out of it.

The question then becomes what to do with the Kur. The simplest solution would be to cut the river either before or after its source, turning it into two rivers, with one flowing west into the lake, and the other flowing east into the Northern Reaches.

The other consideration is the relative elevations of the surrounding terrain. We don't have much data about this, but we already know from the fact that Lake Stahl drains into Ethengar that the Hrap is a possible outflow, with just one hex of mountains barring its way north (and there could conceivably be a valley there). The Kur, on the other hand, has at least four hexes of mountains to flow through. Yes, there could be a valley, but the general rule for these things is "path of least resistance".

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Morfie » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:47 am

There are Real World examples of bifurcated lakes, a few but not many. There are no trifurcated lakes that I can find.

Any chance the Hrap river is flowing into Lake Klintest? It looks like a part of it is at least from a nearby mountain.

Perhaps Lake Klintest has 2 badly made canals, or it is a bifurcated lake with 1 badly made canal? :D Both of these can be ruled out as I'm sure Dwarves wouldn't do this..

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Big Mac » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:35 pm

Thorf wrote:I realise that this is supposed to be the River Nithia, diverted underground by the Immortals to starve the Great Alasiyan Basin of water. But the same "diverting the headwaters" can be achieved simply by having the River Nithia flow north into the Larodar and then Lake Stahl, without any rivers splitting or other weirdness.
There is a river in the Peak District, of the UK, called the River Manifold that vanishes underground and then comes back to the surface later. (Here is a blog entry, where a couple took some pictures of sinkholes the river drops down into: Now you see it, now you don’t: the disappearing and reappearing waters of the River Manifold.)

I don't know how weird the course of the River Nithia is, but I don't suppose it would be too hard for the Immortals to cause underground rocks similar to limestone to errode enough for a pre-existing surface river to suddenly flood down into Mystara's Underdark. As for the River Nithia emerging, that's could be down to the surface of Mystara dropping enough for the river to be above ground level again. But I've also heard that at places like Bath, the spring water gets heated by geothermal energy and then is pushed up to the surface, by the additional energy it gains. A hot spring or warm spring could be a way to get the water coming up somewhere higher than the point where the river vanishes.
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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Robin » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:53 pm

Big Mac wrote:There is a river in the Peak District, of the UK, called the River Manifold that vanishes underground and then comes back to the surface later. (Here is a blog entry, where a couple took some pictures of sinkholes the river drops down into: Now you see it, now you don’t: the disappearing and reappearing waters of the River Manifold.)
I used something similar in the Broken lands; Bagni's Maw.
Big Mac wrote:I don't know how weird the course of the River Nithia is, but I don't suppose it would be too hard for the Immortals to cause underground rocks similar to limestone to errode enough for a pre-existing surface river to suddenly flood down into Mystara's Underdark. As for the River Nithia emerging, that's could be down to the surface of Mystara dropping enough for the river to be above ground level again. But I've also heard that at places like Bath, the spring water gets heated by geothermal energy and then is pushed up to the surface, by the additional energy it gains. A hot spring or warm spring could be a way to get the water coming up somewhere higher than the point where the river vanishes.
And my map Streel 1 https://6inchnails.deviantart.com/art/S ... -645977491regarding the source of the water and giving some logic of a river going around a continent only a few miles from the coast ending hundreds miles away . More on this soon (when my current secret project is finished).
On th lower cutthrough at the bottom of the map you'll see hot magma, pressured water and geysers giving source to the Krandai River (which eventually ends in the Upper Streel, just befoe the Broken Lands)
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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Tom Bulls Eye » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:10 pm

Morfie wrote:There are Real World examples of bifurcated lakes, a few but not many. There are no trifurcated lakes that I can find.

Any chance the Hrap river is flowing into Lake Klintest? It looks like a part of it is at least from a nearby mountain.

Perhaps Lake Klintest has 2 badly made canals, or it is a bifurcated lake with 1 badly made canal? :D Both of these can be ruled out as I'm sure Dwarves wouldn't do this..
What if it was done by magic?

Seems like a very nice task for a magic user immortal quest, changing the landscape to have the only trifurkated lake ever to be in existance, the waterlevels magically balanced from the lake, and rivers dug through the landscape by magic. Probably Lake Klintest has a nexus into the elemental plane of water to secure enough water.

And the name: Lake Klin’s Test, sort of tells you everything, even if by now, the name has deteriorated into Lake Klintest.

Any suggestions on who could be a candidate for the all-powerful magic-user who accomplished this monstrous task?

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by TheGlen » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:09 pm

How about the extra rivers and the bifurcation was done by engineering? Dams on all three at Klintest, then downriver the dwarves have placed dwarf crafted obstacles to split the rivers to provide water to settlements underground further downstream.

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Thorf » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:41 am

Damming is a very interesting idea, given the engineering skills of the dwarves. It's also the only solution that would allow the text of GAZ6 to stand as is.

In this case, we could envision the region as follows:
  • Hrap River — this river is dammed at the point of bifurcation, with valves releasing water both north and south. The north flow is used to syphon off excess water, and thus varies from a slow trickle to a fast torrent depending on the season. The south flow feeds into Lake Klintest.
  • Everast River — feeds into Lake Klintest.
  • Makkres River — feeds into Lake Klintest.
  • Klintest River — flows out of Lake Klintest, controlled by a dam. The river flows into the Makkres Mountains, where it disappears underground.
  • Kur River — this short river flows out of Lake Klintest, controlled by a dam. After less than 30 miles, it feeds into the Vestfjord River and flows to the coast.
Basically what this means is that the dwarves have fully engineered their lake, and are now controlling all of its outflow through two dams. One of the reasons for this (brought up above I think) is the scary possibility of flooding underground caverns, which could be a real danger. Perhaps flooding in the past caused massive problems, resulting in the dwarves taking control through dams.

The River Nithia and the Larodar are still irritating. GAZ6 has this as the Larodar river bifurcating shortly after its source, with one branch flowing south (the River Nithia) into a gorge and disappearing into the ground, and the other branch feeding Lake Stahl.

Dams don't seem like a good solution here, given that we know from elsewhere that the Immortals diverted the headwaters of the River Nithia. I like having the remnants of the river still there, but yet another bifurcated river...

Incidentally, Alphatia is chock full of these, too. :shock:
Robin wrote:And my map Streel 1 https://6inchnails.deviantart.com/art/S ... -645977491regarding the source of the water and giving some logic of a river going around a continent only a few miles from the coast ending hundreds miles away . More on this soon (when my current secret project is finished).
On th lower cutthrough at the bottom of the map you'll see hot magma, pressured water and geysers giving source to the Krandai River (which eventually ends in the Upper Streel, just befoe the Broken Lands)
That's a very interesting idea. And I love the cutaway at the bottom of the map. :D

One thing, though — I don't think this is necessarily a problem if you consider the river flowing from Trollheim into Ethengar as a minor source of the Krandai River.

Basically, you have some high hills between Ethengar and Vestland there, and this river is simply flowing down the hills' western sides. (There are very likely rivers flowing down the eastern sides, too, that are not marked on the map.) At this stage, the river is not very large or strong. I agree with your cutaway's definition of the slope of the land, and I think that alone should be enough to explain this.

Also, the river source is actually just over two hexes' distance from the coast on TM1/2, according to my replica. I'm curious why you've actually moved the sources to be even closer to the coast, which would seem to exacerbate the issue.

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Robin » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:21 pm

Thorf wrote:Damming is a very interesting idea, given the engineering skills of the dwarves. It's also the only solution that would allow the text of GAZ6 to stand as is.

In this case, we could envision the region as follows:
  • Hrap River — this river is dammed at the point of bifurcation, with valves releasing water both north and south. The north flow is used to syphon off excess water, and thus varies from a slow trickle to a fast torrent depending on the season. The south flow feeds into Lake Klintest.
  • Everast River — feeds into Lake Klintest.
  • Makkres River — feeds into Lake Klintest.
  • Klintest River — flows out of Lake Klintest, controlled by a dam. The river flows into the Makkres Mountains, where it disappears underground.
  • Kur River — this short river flows out of Lake Klintest, controlled by a dam. After less than 30 miles, it feeds into the Vestfjord River and flows to the coast.
Basically what this means is that the dwarves have fully engineered their lake, and are now controlling all of its outflow through two dams. One of the reasons for this (brought up above I think) is the scary possibility of flooding underground caverns, which could be a real danger. Perhaps flooding in the past caused massive problems, resulting in the dwarves taking control through dams.

The River Nithia and the Larodar are still irritating. GAZ6 has this as the Larodar river bifurcating shortly after its source, with one branch flowing south (the River Nithia) into a gorge and disappearing into the ground, and the other branch feeding Lake Stahl.

Dams don't seem like a good solution here, given that we know from elsewhere that the Immortals diverted the headwaters of the River Nithia. I like having the remnants of the river still there, but yet another bifurcated river...

Incidentally, Alphatia is chock full of these, too. :shock:
I agree to all these points...especially as a future project of me will be Rockhome 1 mile hexes.

Thorf wrote:
Robin wrote:And my map Streel 1 https://6inchnails.deviantart.com/art/S ... -645977491regarding the source of the water and giving some logic of a river going around a continent only a few miles from the coast ending hundreds miles away . More on this soon (when my current secret project is finished).
On th lower cutthrough at the bottom of the map you'll see hot magma, pressured water and geysers giving source to the Krandai River (which eventually ends in the Upper Streel, just befoe the Broken Lands)
That's a very interesting idea. And I love the cutaway at the bottom of the map. :D

One thing, though — I don't think this is necessarily a problem if you consider the river flowing from Trollheim into Ethengar as a minor source of the Krandai River.

Basically, you have some high hills between Ethengar and Vestland there, and this river is simply flowing down the hills' western sides. (There are very likely rivers flowing down the eastern sides, too, that are not marked on the map.) At this stage, the river is not very large or strong. I agree with your cutaway's definition of the slope of the land, and I think that alone should be enough to explain this.

Also, the river source is actually just over two hexes' distance from the coast on TM1/2, according to my replica. I'm curious why you've actually moved the sources to be even closer to the coast, which would seem to exacerbate the issue.
Thanx for the love :oops: , Cutaways sometimes explain just that little bit you miss on a flat map. ;)

As to the Krandai River; I followed the wordings of Bruce who found the Streel River ridiculous. In investigating the Broken Lands (and hence the streel River)http://pandius.com/Broken_Lands_East.png I had to investigate deeply into the Ethengar, Rockhome, Broken Lands, Glantri, Alfheim and Darokin Gazetteers just to find the altitudes. And What I found were lots of omissions, some flaws, and one major hindrance (On which I will return as soon as my secret project is finished (very Soon)and some of the smaller balls tossing up are stored/finished.(indeed I am a workaholic and do waaay too much at once...it keeps me strong resisting RL issues :x ).
The main point is that the Streel toches the Broken Lands at 350'altitude. and using the fan maps of the region in the past (Sturm his excellent work as example) the border of the former Lake here was at 650' altitude. As Ethengar is actually a high plateaux tilting inwardtowards the collossus mountains, I have deduced, that the Krandai River could only have its origin (roughly 3500'altitude) from a lower pressured shore. The volcanic activity in several Norway regions gave me the solution... to the pressure and river origin, and even why Trolls love the region even though there is nothing swampy or wet;De Sjutton Fontäner Ragnarök; aka the 17 Fountains of Ragnarok;a geothermal hotbed clouding the region in a seemingly eternal fog of volcanic bloiled water; steam.
The Krandai has thus enough angle to be a slow (very Slow) river towards the Broken Lands.
The regional Flooding of Ethengar can thus be explained too; the thawing of the Winter Ice, causes the see to decrease in temperature significantly to create more pressure on the magma, and more water to flow there where it is able to stagnate. The Rockhome Rivers increased by melting ice and snow increase the yield of water even more.
Not all water flows down to the Broken lands. The ground in the temporary lakes is semipermeable, leaking water down to the Underground where it enters lakes and rivers, to be forced elsewhere up to the surface far far away by either magic or volcanic activity, or even cellular transportation (as Mystara aka Urt is a living Planet thus has a cel structure).
As to the two hexes in the canon and your reworked maps...this is actually still the same; more or less; the lake Ånga sjö on my map is about 16 miles (2 hexes away) from the Fjord.., it is the Multitude of smaller rivers and sources together wehich are combined the source of the Krandai River.

Kope this helps in explaining my thoughts on this matter :ugeek: :mrgreen:
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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Mike » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:17 pm

The Streel is not at all ridiculous if you compare it to the Mississippi. The Mississippi rises very close to Lake Michigan and flows south across half a continent to reach the Gulf of Mexico. It seems more logical for it to flow a short distance east into the lake and then into the Atlantic Ocean.

The Mississippi drains all the land south of the Great Lakes, and very little water flows north into the lakes.

The Streel like the Mississippi crosses no mountains between Ethengar and the Sea of Dread. The broken lands could be an obstacle, but they are newly-formed, and the riverbed undoubtedly existed prior to their formation. They could have formed a temporary dam causing a lake to back up, that the river eventually cut through to reestablish it's course.

Another similarity between the Mississippi and the Streel is the Malpheggi swamp, which closely resembles the Atchafalaya basin in Louisiana. The Mississippe bifurcates at Fort Adams; the west channel flows into the swamp, and the east channel flows south to New Orleans and the gulf. This is very similar to how the Streel splits between the western swamp, and the eastern canal to Athenos.

The continent map was drawn long before the Gazetteers were written. To me it seems abn obvious analogue for the southeastern USA. Hattias looks like Florida.I find it interesting that Glantri the land of wizards is north of the Streel real just as Geneva Wisconsin, home of the Game Wizards, is north of the Mississippi. The arid Great Waste corresponds with Texas and Mexico. The parallels are loose but they are there if you look for them. It was later that the KW was fit into the world map. We now know Thaytias should correspond roughly to Nova Scotia in Canada, but I think the map was drawn with the idea that it was Florida.

The Darokin gazetteer I believe describes the Streel as fast flowing, but the author may not have noticed the Mississippi / North America similarity, or may also not have known much about rivers and geography. These things were written before the internet, with wikipedia and google maps.

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Havard » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:41 am

Interessting. I had never really thought about this. I do like the idea of dams in Rockhome.

As to the River Nithia, I sort of thought the idea was that the river would actually end up in the Hollow World, or in the caverns of the Shadow Elves? Not sure if any of that would work. Even having it end up in the caverns of Barimoor could be interesting.

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Satyros » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:54 pm

Longtime lurker here. The rivers in GAZ6 have long bothered me as well. I'm generally inclined towards the simplest solutions and I avoid applying magic or other strangeness unless it seems necessary and useful.

First of all, I concur wholeheartedly with this assessment:
Thorf wrote:The problem with going by GAZ6's text is that it shows absolutely no knowledge of how rivers work whatsoever.
Here are some of my thoughts on individual rivers:

Hrap - The one and only outflow of Lake Klintest. The text on GAZ6 p.46 refers to it as a "small river" and one that forms "in the mountains." Both of these statements are at odds with the map, unless we consider it as bifurcating in the mountains, which seems unlikely. Pretty much every other map shows this river as flowing from the lake, eventually ending up as a tributary of the Streel.

Klintest - flows into the lake. Earlier maps show this to be the case, and it is not connected with the rivers flowing east into Vestland.

Kur - I believe some early X1 maps as well as the map in X3 p.3 show that the river that flows past Rhoona on the north does not originate in Lake Klintest, but in the mountains. GAZ6 in fact contradicts itself in the text about this river. On p. 46, "This mountain stream forms in Lake Klintest," and then on the very next page in the entry on Evekarr Pass, "the mountain ridge where the Kur River has its headwaters." The second interpretation seems correct. P. 58 refers to Fort Evekarr as being at the pass between Rockhome and Vestland. This implies that it is a high point with the land sloping down on either side of it. The GAZ6 map shows what seems to be a mistaken gap in the river at the point of Fort Evekarr, but I would argue this gap is real, showing that there are two separate rivers here. The source of the Kur is near the Fort and flows west into the lake, while the source of the Vestfjord is on the other side of the fort and flows east.

Nithia - this is clearly a tributary of the Larodar.

In short, I generally agree with what Thorf has written here:
I realise that this is supposed to be the River Nithia, diverted underground by the Immortals to starve the Great Alasiyan Basin of water. But the same "diverting the headwaters" can be achieved simply by having the River Nithia flow north into the Larodar and then Lake Stahl, without any rivers splitting or other weirdness.

Back to Lake Klintest... I'd argue that, if possible, we should avoid lake bifurcation — even if it means overriding GAZ6's text in places. So we only want one outflow from the lake. That being the case, the Hrap seems like the best candidate, with its source north of the lake instead becoming a tributary.

The Klintest River clearly flows into the lake, not out of it.

The question then becomes what to do with the Kur. The simplest solution would be to cut the river either before or after its source, turning it into two rivers, with one flowing west into the lake, and the other flowing east into the Northern Reaches.

The other consideration is the relative elevations of the surrounding terrain. We don't have much data about this, but we already know from the fact that Lake Stahl drains into Ethengar that the Hrap is a possible outflow, with just one hex of mountains barring its way north (and there could conceivably be a valley there). The Kur, on the other hand, has at least four hexes of mountains to flow through. Yes, there could be a valley, but the general rule for these things is "path of least resistance".
Not that I don't find magical portals, dams, and locks interesting. :)

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Thorf » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:52 am

Satyros wrote:Kur - I believe some early X1 maps as well as the map in X3 p.3 show that the river that flows past Rhoona on the north does not originate in Lake Klintest, but in the mountains. GAZ6 in fact contradicts itself in the text about this river. On p. 46, "This mountain stream forms in Lake Klintest," and then on the very next page in the entry on Evekarr Pass, "the mountain ridge where the Kur River has its headwaters." The second interpretation seems correct. P. 58 refers to Fort Evekarr as being at the pass between Rockhome and Vestland. This implies that it is a high point with the land sloping down on either side of it. The GAZ6 map shows what seems to be a mistaken gap in the river at the point of Fort Evekarr, but I would argue this gap is real, showing that there are two separate rivers here. The source of the Kur is near the Fort and flows west into the lake, while the source of the Vestfjord is on the other side of the fort and flows east.
Hi Satyros!

Brilliant first post — and not just because you agreed with my posts! ;)

I think you've completely hit the nail on the head — and at the same time found an error in my replicas of the iconic X1 map. Bravo! :D

I had also overlooked GAZ6's gap, probably because I was automatically seeing the river there. You're absolutely right, this combined with X1's map is the solution we needed.

In my next version of Rockhome, I will certainly change the Kur to reflect this revelation. I've already cut the Klintest's erroneous extension. With these two gone, the Hrap is free to be the only runoff from the lake, which I agree really makes the most sense.

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Re: Klintest has three outflows

Post by Mike » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:40 pm

That resolves it for me. :)

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