Concept for an Over-Hierarch

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MPA
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Concept for an Over-Hierarch

Post by MPA » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:13 am

The concept came to me when it was hard to sleep. I am not sure how the stats would work, or if it is something that could replace the Old Ones or be used as a player character.

First in foremost, I want it to be a potential playable character, so the only stat that would be way out there is the Powerpoints. Which should be either 25,000 or unlimited.

Regular Hierarchs have a max of 16,000 Powerpoints.

I'm thinking along unlimited, because any use of Permanent PP reduces the their powerpoints, until they earn them back. Unlimited would show that they are no longer bound by such limitations.

In addition, Hierarchs are still beholding to worshippers, while the Over-Hierarch wouldn't be. They are directly connected to the primordial and cosmic energies of the multiverse.

So the big question is why have such beings? I don't know. It just came to me. What is their purpose? Probably the same as other immortals in their respective spheres: to promote and empower their sphere.

Again their stats are the same as a 36th Level Hierarch, except their PP are infinite. They are more than likely no longer involved in the plots and what nots of the other Immortals, as they are likely ruling over many planes and too busy traveling dimensions.

I don't know. Any helpful input is encouraged.
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My PC is the Celestial level Immortal Krull, "Patron to all Chaotic humans, especially warriors".
I use the rules based on the RC and WoTI.

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JamesMishler
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Re: Concept for an Over-Hierarch

Post by JamesMishler » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:00 am

Well, one way they could work was like the Over-Gods of AD&D and later D&D. Over-Gods were each in charge of one crystal sphere (i.e., one campaign setting), and therein they were effectively omnipotent and omniscient (though not omnipresent). They made sure the gods who interacted with the mortals of the sphere "played nice" and according to whatever rules the Over-God set; when they do not, things like the "Time of Troubles" can happen, as the Over-God can revoke the divine power of the other gods within that sphere.

Each Over-Hierarch would be in charge of a single solar system (or perhaps group of small, related systems), and within that domain would have unlimited power, essentially omnipotent and omniscient, whereas the other immortals with a presence in the system would be limited to their maximum power points (or even more limited, as avatars and such).

They would supposedly be neutral, but might still have foibles, favorites, likes, dislikes, hatreds, and so forth that can be played upon or against, enabling other immortals to curry favor with the Over-Hierarch and thus gain more power than otherwise would be normal on those worlds.

Perhaps there are ranks of Over-Hierarchs; one per planet and major occupied moon, plus the Grand-Hierarch over the solar system.

Urt, for example, could be the Over-Hierarch of Mystara; each of the other planets in the system has an Over-Hierarch, and above them, a Grand Hierarch. Each of the Over-Hierarchs jockeys for position and power with the Grand-Hierarch within the system, while the immortals with a presence on their world do so with the Over-Hierarch (allowing for inter-planetary plots as well as interdimensional)...

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Re: Concept for an Over-Hierarch

Post by Khedrac » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:49 am

There's a big question with this - where would they fit with respect to the "Old Ones need Immortals to advance themselves to make new Old Ones" background?

Also, when you look at the Immortals, they are not that worried about worshippers - especially since each gets its own home plane which it can populate with worshippers - they don't need to be worried about the prime plane unless they want to be. They mainly gain power through competeing with each other - overcoming plots etc.

So, would becoming an over-heirach interrupt the progression to become an Old One? If it does, considering how rare it is for immortals to become Old Ones, it is likely that the Old Ones would not permit their existence. More likely is that they would be either Old Ones acting in disguise, or the Old One equivalent of an Exalted creature - i.e. one their created/raised to that level of power artificially.

I think Over-Heirarchs only make sense if you throw out the Old Ones and the progression to become them (not difficult to do, especially if not using BECMI rules).

If you really want to have over-heirarchs, then you are limiting them far too much in scope. Heirarchs should (I think) be comfortably more powerful than (A)D&D Greater Gods - possibly getting on for the powers of an over-god (I agree not quite, but consider who has more work - Ao, overseeing all the gods of Toril, or a heirarch overseeing all of the immortals of a sphere?) One over-heirarch might be responsible for all of the worlds of the Crystal Psheres in the flow (i.e. an entire prime plane). The way you seem to want to allocate them (one per moon) makes them far more numerous than the other gods or immortals and therefore weaker! I can see the immortals allocating exalted to watch over each world and moon - mainly because they are far more concerned abot their plots with each other than the long-term health of the worlds so assigning someone to do that job makes sense.
Last edited by Khedrac on Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Concept for an Over-Hierarch

Post by Ashtagon » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:01 am

Maybe the over-hierarchs *are* old ones? After all, even old ones need something to do ;)
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Illuminatus
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Re: Concept for an Over-Hierarch

Post by Illuminatus » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:30 pm

There's a d20 supplement out there called Ascension by Craig Cochrane. Although it's a long way from being BECMI-compatible, it gave me some great ideas for divine beings beyond Hierarch. It has several ranks of beings beyond the "Demi, Lesser, Intermediate, and Greater" gods of the old AD&D mold, which more or less correspond to the BECMI immortals. It was a great idea-mine for me.

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Re: Concept for an Over-Hierarch

Post by MPA » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:53 am

Khedrac wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:49 am

Also, when you look at the Immortals, they are not that worried about worshippers - especially since each gets its own home plane which it can populate with worshippers - they don't need to be worried about the prime plane unless they want to be. They mainly gain power through competeing with each other - overcoming plots etc.
Are the mortals that immortals create on their homeplanes counted as worshippers that sustain their immortality? I had never considered it nor does the rules disallow or confirm it. I had always thought creating your worshippers and kingdom on your home plane, as just a bonus to get experience points.

Immortals gain experience the same way mortals do, mostly through adventuring. Plots do not give you any experience in Wrath of the Immortals rules. Only strokes grant (or take away) power points. And since the rule is optional, I am okay with not having it part of any game I am in.
Last edited by MPA on Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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My PC is the Celestial level Immortal Krull, "Patron to all Chaotic humans, especially warriors".
I use the rules based on the RC and WoTI.

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Re: Concept for an Over-Hierarch

Post by LoZompatore » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:07 pm

Following the original Gold Box rules what if this over-hierarch is an Immortal who just completed his second ascent to full hierarch status and is on the verge of becoming an Old One? With all the memories of his first Immortal life just returned he got rid of all the previuos Immortals' needs. Nevertheless the process of becoming an Old One still requires some accomplishment to be fulfilled. Or, maybe, this Immortal is just completing his business in the Five Dimensions before ascending to an higher status, similar in this to 36th level mortals just before they leave their mortal selves for Immortality.

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Re: Concept for an Over-Hierarch

Post by MPA » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:21 pm

LoZompatore wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:07 pm
Following the original Gold Box rules what if this over-hierarch is an Immortal who just completed his second ascent to full hierarch status and is on the verge of becoming an Old One? With all the memories of his first Immortal life just returned he got rid of all the previuos Immortals' needs. Nevertheless the process of becoming an Old One still requires some accomplishment to be fulfilled. Or, maybe, this Immortal is just completing his business in the Five Dimensions before ascending to an higher status, similar in this to 36th level mortals just before they leave their mortal selves for Immortality.
Those are some good thoughts. Thanks.
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My PC is the Celestial level Immortal Krull, "Patron to all Chaotic humans, especially warriors".
I use the rules based on the RC and WoTI.

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