Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Weird red metals, dominions, immortals, hollow planets, invisible moons, and a lot of glorified magic zeppelins. It's all here.
The Book-House: Find Mystara products, Find Known World products.

Moderators: Gawain_VIII, Havard, Seer of Yhog, Cthulhudrew

Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:02 pm

Hi folks,

Well one of the projects I've been working on lately is the Mystara 2300 BC setting, and one of the key components of this project is to develop some historically accurate maps of the era (and surrounding eras). At the moment I'm concerned with the following periods: BC 2300, BC 1750, BC 1700, and BC 1000... possibly after that BC 500.

I began the project by mapping the BC 2300 Known World at 24mph, and then started picking off chunks to remap at 8mph. That's when I stumbled on a problem. Basically there are errors in my BC 2300 24mph map on the southern coast of Brun (Taymora's coastline), that I'm just not happy with. At this point I realized that what I really needed to do was go back to the drawing board and extend the map to the south so that it encompasses the Thanegioth Archipelago.

The other thing I realized was that I should be creating my master map at 8mph, and then working back to the 24mph (or greater) maps. It just ends up being less hassle this way. So to start off I scoured the Vaults for maps that I could use as a baseline, and found these three:
Known World and Sea of Dread 8 miles per hex by Mark Howard current as of 08 September 2006.
Maps of the Known World, 8 miles per hex by Thorfinn Tait, from The Piazza posted 24 March 2009.
Maps of the Sea of Dread Submerged Lands, 8 miles per hex, byt Thorfinn Tait from The Piazza posted 02 August 2008.

As a first step I have combined these maps to create this:
Known World master template at 8mph

Ok, so this is a good start, but the thing I'm lacking now is detailed information about the sea floor between the KW and the Thanegioth Archipelago. The next step in the plan is to combine elements from the following map into my master template:
Sea of Dread ancient cultures, by LoZompatore

I'll update this thread once that step is done, but I wanted to ask the community if they knew of any other maps that might be useful in this endeavor. Anything dealing with underwater kingdoms or the sea floor in the region specified would be of especial value.
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Hugin » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:03 pm

Looking over the PC3 replica reminded me that the depths are not shown for the first five shades, and that the 'deep level' colours are not even noted as the same on the left and right hand sides. Anybody have any ideas?

My other suggestions are to use those contours as a guide for coming up with the pre-1750 coastline. In other words, the land didn't sink uniformly to exactly the same depth as one of those contours. There was sinking, buckling, and heaving in the process.

[thought experimenting] On LoZompatore's map he has a notation of an old swamp or lake in the (now) 1000' deep trench in the west. I think it would be more likely that this would have been an excellent condition to find a town with a deep harbour.
I agree with the idea of the "Kna lake", however the river flowing south from there either flowed uphill over the inclination between what is now Trader's Isle & Fortress Island, OR:
1) There was a ravine through which it flowed (perhaps a dangerous region),
2) The area was thrust upwards compared to surrounding areas during the cataclysm (it was lower when the river flowed through),
3) The river actually flowed around the eastern side of Trader's Isle from the lake before heading south,
4) The lake was larger than what we think and extended farther west (albeit shallower), where the river both entered and the lake drained , flowing between Fortress and Utter Islands.

The reason I mention this Kna lake is that I think there is some interesting possibilities with it.

There's some ideas to start us on anyway...
User avatar
Hugin
Green Dragon
 
Posts: 3865
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:32 pm

Hugin wrote:Looking over the PC3 replica reminded me that the depths are not shown for the first five shades, and that the 'deep level' colours are not even noted as the same on the left and right hand sides. Anybody have any ideas?

Hmmmm... I never got that impression. I always assumed that the "hook" on the left side dropped straight to the 5th level - a very steep incline indeed!

Hugin wrote:My other suggestions are to use those contours as a guide for coming up with the pre-1750 coastline. In other words, the land didn't sink uniformly to exactly the same depth as one of those contours. There was sinking, buckling, and heaving in the process.
In some cases though - the hook being one example, and the beginning of the trench being the other, there is very little room to play with (because the inclines are so steep. With regard to the contours in the Sunlit Sea, I agree. Those should be used as general guidelines.

Hugin wrote:[thought experimenting] On LoZompatore's map he has a notation of an old swamp or lake in the (now) 1000' deep trench in the west. I think it would be more likely that this would have been an excellent condition to find a town with a deep harbour.
I agree with the idea of the "Kna lake", however the river flowing south from there either flowed uphill over the inclination between what is now Trader's Isle & Fortress Island, OR:
1) There was a ravine through which it flowed (perhaps a dangerous region),
2) The area was thrust upwards compared to surrounding areas during the cataclysm (it was lower when the river flowed through),
3) The river actually flowed around the eastern side of Trader's Isle from the lake before heading south,
4) The lake was larger than what we think and extended farther west (albeit shallower), where the river both entered and the lake drained , flowing between Fortress and Utter Islands.

I tend to agree with you about the "hook". It's steep incline makes the possibility of a swamp in that position unlikely. I think it's much more likely that this was a deep bay, and thus a very strategic location for sea faring/trading nations.

Thanks for the rest of the input! I'm going to have to spend some time tonight looking over the map again before I comment on the rest (hard to really look at maps in detail while at work ;) ).
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Hugin » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:37 pm

Chimpman wrote:Thanks for the rest of the input! I'm going to have to spend some time tonight looking over the map again before I comment on the rest (hard to really look at maps in detail while at work ;) ).

Tell me about it! :)

I'd work on this at home with you but my home internet is not working at the moment. :(
User avatar
Hugin
Green Dragon
 
Posts: 3865
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:59 am

Ok, I've updated the Known World master template at 8mph

At present the updated map is a composite of these 5 maps:

Because I'm trying to view so many things at once, the map is a little hard to read... but I think we should be able to tease some useful information out of it. First - I was able to align all of the hex maps up fairly accurately by measuring the hexes on each map and then scaling each to a set standard. The X7 map is at a 24mph scale, so that was also taken into account (and the X7 hexes should be x3 the size of the others).

LoZompatore's map is the only one without hexes, and it was the hardest to align with the others... in fact I think I got as close as possible, but it will be impossible to align things perfectly because the shorelines differ slightly with Thorf's maps. My compromise was to get as close as possible for as many of the small islands that dot the Sea of Dread (Insect Isle, Pirate Rock, No name Isle, Skeleton Key, East Key, and Termite Atoll). Since they are spread pretty evenly throughout the sea, I figure that this will give me the best approximation possible. Keep in mind that this is temporary and I will go back and make corrections by hand as I get closer to a finalized version of the map.

Ok, putting that map together took a lot of time, and I'm pretty burned out at the moment. I have some comments, but I think I'll hold back until my brain starts functioning again.
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Hugin » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:28 pm

Good work so far.

I think I may have noticed a bit of a problem; we have Theliir (of Mogreth) on "Kantrium Bay" in 2300 BC, but according to LoZompatore's map, that whole bay region was above water.

I think the first thing we should establish (either from canon, which I can't find at the moment, or by estimating based on canon descriptions) is a rough approximation of how far the land dropped. But again, this drop should not be perfectly uniform across the Sea of Dread.

Furthermore, the timelines describe the catastrophe as having "split several large land masses away" from the mainland. Now, this is perhaps a little 'out there', but I think we should at least re-examine how we are recreating the pre-1750 coastline. What if we go under the assumption that the cataclysm created a rift between the current shoreline and islands that ran from Sind all the way east to Hattias where it turned south. This 'pulled' the islands from the mainland down in elevation allowing the sea to rush in and claim the old lowlands. The rift branched at Hattias, to a lesser degree, creating Vanya's Girdle and separating Hattias from the mainland.

This theory allows the shorelines and islands east of Hattias to be relatively similar in the past compared to today (i.e. not nearly so altered as to the west). So, things looked quite different in the Kantrium Bay region but at least there was a bay.
User avatar
Hugin
Green Dragon
 
Posts: 3865
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:42 pm

I think we're thinking along the same lines here. I like LoZompatore's map, but I'm not sure I agree entirely with some of its features - most notably the brown coastal lines. Based on the X7 map it looks as if those lines should curve up to meet Brun, both right before the start of the Ierendi Isles, and just after Hattias. LoZompatore, if you're around I'd love to get your input on this. I may not choose to go in the same direction as you have, but I'd still be interested in learning why you made the choices you did for your map.

Hugin wrote:I think I may have noticed a bit of a problem; we have Theliir (of Mogreth) on "Kantrium Bay" in 2300 BC, but according to LoZompatore's map, that whole bay region was above water.

I'd prefer to keep the bay as well, if just for the fact that it makes a good story. There is reason for Theliir to be a trade city on the bay, and I think it's fun to have Tel Akbir be built over its ruins. So as far as I'm concerned the bay stays.

Hugin wrote:I think the first thing we should establish (either from canon, which I can't find at the moment, or by estimating based on canon descriptions) is a rough approximation of how far the land dropped. But again, this drop should not be perfectly uniform across the Sea of Dread.

Here's where I may disagree with canon (literal canon), but I think that the reason Taymora sank was that sea levels rose. Now, that doesn't discount the canon geological activity in that area at the time - it simply serves as additional explanation for it. There are other maps out there (JTR's among them IIRC) that show various land bridges from the KW to the Isle of Dawn. That's something I'd like to keep as well, but you can't get rid of those by AC 1000 without sea levels rising. At the moment I'm linking Taymora's sinking circa BC 1700 with the sea level rise.

Hugin wrote:Furthermore, the timelines describe the catastrophe as having "split several large land masses away" from the mainland. Now, this is perhaps a little 'out there', but I think we should at least re-examine how we are recreating the pre-1750 coastline. What if we go under the assumption that the cataclysm created a rift between the current shoreline and islands that ran from Sind all the way east to Hattias where it turned south. This 'pulled' the islands from the mainland down in elevation allowing the sea to rush in and claim the old lowlands. The rift branched at Hattias, to a lesser degree, creating Vanya's Girdle and separating Hattias from the mainland.

Again (not strictly canon, I know) but I'd say it was a combination of land based elevation change, and a rising sea level. The earth's crust is not strictly speaking, rigid. It can be thought of as being elastic under certain circumstances. For example, say there are glaciers just above the KW (which we know there are - they start to recede in BC 2500). This can put an extreme amount of pressure on the earth's crust in much the same way as if a balloon were being squeezed. Now, lets say that the glaciers melt - there's evidence that this could happen from the inside out creating vast reservoirs of water being held in by increasingly thin ice walls. Once the walls break, the water is released. Sea levels rise, and the pressure on the crust caused by the glaciers is removed. And this happens almost instantaneously. This would lead to a major catastrophe in the area (and that's how I think it happened).

Sorry for the long winded response. The short answer is that I'm agreeing that the land can be moved in such a way as you described above.

Hugin wrote:This theory allows the shorelines and islands east of Hattias to be relatively similar in the past compared to today (i.e. not nearly so altered as to the west). So, things looked quite different in the Kantrium Bay region but at least there was a bay.

Yup, I agree here as well.
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:51 pm

I wanted to revisit these ideas. Now that my brain has cleared a bit I understand better what you are referring to.

Hugin wrote:I agree with the idea of the "Kna lake", however the river flowing south from there either flowed uphill over the inclination between what is now Trader's Isle & Fortress Island, OR:
1) There was a ravine through which it flowed (perhaps a dangerous region),
2) The area was thrust upwards compared to surrounding areas during the cataclysm (it was lower when the river flowed through),
3) The river actually flowed around the eastern side of Trader's Isle from the lake before heading south,
4) The lake was larger than what we think and extended farther west (albeit shallower), where the river both entered and the lake drained , flowing between Fortress and Utter Islands.

The reason I mention this Kna lake is that I think there is some interesting possibilities with it.

There's some ideas to start us on anyway...

Ok, I like the idea of the lake as well, and I think any of the above could be explanation for it and the river. Which do you think is the most likely? #3 is probably the simplest explanation IMO, and I'm fine with moving rivers around as needed. I think we should see a lot of that kind of thing happening as we start to develop these historical maps.
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Hugin » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:01 pm

Chimpman wrote:I think we're thinking along the same lines here. I like LoZompatore's map, but ... LoZompatore, if you're around I'd love to get your input on this. I may not choose to go in the same direction as you have, but I'd still be interested in learning why you made the choices you did for your map.

I think so, and yes, I'd love to hear Lo's thoughts.

So as far as I'm concerned the bay stays.

Excellent. I haven't seen any reason why it can't and as you say, it's better for the historical storyline.

Here's where I may disagree with canon (literal canon), but I think that the reason Taymora sank was that sea levels rose. ... At the moment I'm linking Taymora's sinking circa BC 1700 with the sea level rise.

My main 'beef', if you will, with this is that a rising sea level is really too slow and not threatening enough to life to be called a catastrophe. It may be an environmental catastrophe that affects the entire world, but not really a true, civilization ending catastrophe. However, see below ...

For example, say there are glaciers just above the KW (which we know there are - they start to recede in BC 2500). This can put an extreme amount of pressure on the earth's crust in much the same way as if a balloon were being squeezed. Now, lets say that the glaciers melt - there's evidence that this could happen from the inside out creating vast reservoirs of water being held in by increasingly thin ice walls. Once the walls break, the water is released. Sea levels rise, and the pressure on the crust caused by the glaciers is removed. And this happens almost instantaneously. This would lead to a major catastrophe in the area (and that's how I think it happened).

On the same page, eh? I was going to give a comment very similar to this one but, I actually had some work I had to do. ;)

I'm right with you on the glacier bit weighing down the Known World. Now, there isn't enough water stored there to raise world wide sea levels that much if we are able to have life so close to the old North Pole. After all, the Artic Circle used to extend as far as the Thangeoth Archipelago. But here's my "However";
We have the arctic glaciers melting between 3000 BC and 2500 BC allowing the region to become inhabitable (according to Gaz 1). During that time, both of the old polar ice caps are melting (sometimes releasing large amounts as you mentioned), and this has been slowly raising the global sea level causing land bridges to slowly get smaller (they don't need to disappear that quickly). The Known World is also slowly rising as the weight of the glaciers diminishes, but this begins to place stress around the region as it pulls up away from the land around it. Much of the geologic activity in the area could be attributed to this stress.

We could even say that the Taymorans did not realize the magnitude of sea levels rising because their land was rising in pace with it. But then, around 1750 BC, this stress was relieved when the 'Sea of Dread' ripped from the mainland and settled down in line with the surrounding surface that was not rising with the Known World region.

I hope that makes sense to you. I believe it holds to what you have in mind. Thoughts?
User avatar
Hugin
Green Dragon
 
Posts: 3865
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:14 pm

Hugin wrote:I'm right with you on the glacier bit weighing down the Known World. Now, there isn't enough water stored there to raise world wide sea levels that much if we are able to have life so close to the old North Pole. After all, the Artic Circle used to extend as far as the Thangeoth Archipelago.

Here is another thing to consider. There are massive volcanic eruptions on Vulcania/Grunland circa BC 2400... so its not only the norther ice sheets we have to worry about, but the southern ones as well. I haven't done a study on Mystaran glaciation however ;) so I can't say for sure exactly what really happens. I do think under the right circumstances you could get sea levels to rise very fast, and to be very destructive. But again, I'm not positive that's what happens here.

Hugin wrote:We have the arctic glaciers melting between 3000 BC and 2500 BC allowing the region to become inhabitable (according to Gaz 1). During that time, both of the old polar ice caps are melting (sometimes releasing large amounts as you mentioned), and this has been slowly raising the global sea level causing land bridges to slowly get smaller (they don't need to disappear that quickly). The Known World is also slowly rising as the weight of the glaciers diminishes, but this begins to place stress around the region as it pulls up away from the land around it. Much of the geologic activity in the area could be attributed to this stress.

We could even say that the Taymorans did not realize the magnitude of sea levels rising because their land was rising in pace with it. But then, around 1750 BC, this stress was relieved when the 'Sea of Dread' ripped from the mainland and settled down in line with the surrounding surface that was not rising with the Known World region.

Indeed, this all makes sense. I think our line of thought is very similar here... similar enough that regardless of the exact particulars of the situation, we both end up at precisely the same outcome - that being Taymora subsumed by the sea. An you're right, that the land bridges don't need to disappear overnight. This does have implications for other portions of the world as well however, and here I'm thinking specifically of the Thanegioth Archipelago. If we assume that rising sea levels eventually drown out the land bridges, the same would be true for other land formations across the world. This means that the the Thangioth were also probably a lot larger pre BC 1750 (which is also something I'd like to explore).

As far as the map process goes I think the next step is for me to take the compiled information we have here, and re-draw the BC 1700 and BC 1750 shorelines (we'll start with the coastlines and then work our way in). The first pass will be quick and dirty, and we can hash over what needs to be changed before I create the finalized coastlines.
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby LoZompatore » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:43 pm

Wow, thanks a lot for the appreciation guys! :) My map really does not deserve so much attentions from yours ;)

When I created my map I was more interested in placing elements from various sources into it, so I did not check the true correspondence to other canonical and more accurate maps: maybe that's why Chimpman had so many problems in trying to fit coastlines. By the way, the brown "ancient" coastline I used is merely indicative and approximate, especially in its eastern (dotted) part where, as you noticed, a connection with TM1 deep sea border would be desirable.

The same applies to the deep water pool of the kna: I supposed that in the ancient times it was a swamp or a lake just because I saw it was sourrounded by higher lands but, in truth, the pool could just represent a region which moved downward more deeply that the nearby lands, who knows. So feel free to substitute my lake/swamp with anything else you will find more suitable.

If you are interested, some years ago I made a set of 10 rough physical maps of the Known World which highlight the major (and likely) changes that could have happened from the Great rain of Fire to the present time. You'll find them here:

http://sites.google.com/site/lozomparch ... in-history

They are non-hexed maps, very simple and approximate (I suggest do not trying to fit them with an official hexed map: likely many rivers, mountains and coastlines are in the wrong position) with many assumptions on my part (actually I was helped at that time also by Zendrolion) but, maybe, they could be useful in reminding you the major changes happened to the Known World geography during the last 4000 years. ;)

Just a few notes to help you in better understanding those maps:

1) Legend: grey = Ice, green = forest, dotted land = desert

2) I did not placed ice in the middle of the Ethengar Khanates in the "BC 3000 - BC 2500" map because this area is just a "seal" created by the Immortals to close the old north polar opening just before the Great Rain of Fire. In my opinion it would be superfluous to cover it with ice that would have melted anyway in a few centuries. Of course, this is just an assumption of mine ;)
By the way, notice the atruaghin plateaux being about 1/3 of the original size as from CoM information. I chose that the "original" plateaux was the easternmost part of the moden one, but, again, this is just another assumption of mine: maybe it would be better to have the westernmost part as the original one, so to let the Azcan/Oltec refugees to be sheltered by it without being too close to the old (melting) icecap.
I also supposed that the land bridge of Ostland, connecting the Northern Reaches to the Isle of Dawn, collapsed just after the Great Rain of Fire. I suppose it could be possible to have this land bridge last for a few more centuries without causing troubles to other parts of the official material.

3) The large island in the "BC 2000 - BC 1750" map comes from GAZ4 (Honor Island entry, IIRC) where it is said that a huge island the size of the Five Shires stood where now there is the Ierendi archipelago. Coastlines are, of course, very approximate. Feel free to change them as you like.

4) Forests in the Adri varma plateaux in the "BC 1700 - BC 1200" and "BC 1200 - BC 795" maps are an attempt of mine to justify the existence of the Abaddon Woods in the map of the original B3 module. I supposed that the climatic changes who brought a wetter climate in the Sind desert from BC 1700 - BC 795 (due to the partial destruction of the original Atruaghin plateaux, from CoM info) increased also precipitations in the southern part of the Adri Varma, letting to the growth of the Abaddon Woods. Such a forest would have withered and died after the rebuilding of the modren Atruaghin plateaux in BC 795. Anyway, those assumptions are truly speculations of mine, so feel free to discard them at all ;)

5) The only purpose of the "BC 1200 - BC 795" map is to show the ice sheet covering Glantri retired outside the Broken Lands and the southernmost part of Glantri itself, so to let humanoids to populate the Broken Lands in great numbers. A few elves could have populated the southernmost part of Glantri, given some obscure references in the Dragonlord Trilogy about elves living in this area around AC 500, far before the modern colonization from Erewan and Belcadiz elves. Feel free to drop this map at all if your conclusions are different than mine. ;)

6) BC 500 - AC 425" map shows (among other things such as the disappearance of river Nithia) the disappearance of the Five Shires forested area due to exploitation and domestication by halflings. If you reach any different conclusion feel free to modify this map as well.

7) "AC 425 - Ac 1006" map shows actually three minor (and debatable) changes: the reduction/disappearance of forested area in Glantri and in the Northern Reaches due to human exploitation (Glantri is mostly a forested area in AC 500 accordingly to the Dragonlord Trilogy maps) and a minor change in Sind coastline due to the disappearance of the coastal city of Sahajaphur (and sourronding areas - I assumed) after Ka transported it to the Hollow World during the shapeshifting/lycantropic ephidemy of AC 425. You could assume that the coastline change was actually a minor one and could not be represented on a map.


As you noticed from my comments above, I suggest you to use those map just as a quick reference: they are not exact nor include only official information. If you have any question about those maps don't hesitate: I'll try to answer as soon as possible! :)
LoZompatore
Hill Giant
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 8:40 am
Location: Fano, Italy

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:53 am

LoZompatore, thanks for the comments and for the link to your historical maps as well!
LoZompatore wrote:Wow, thanks a lot for the appreciation guys! :) My map really does not deserve so much attentions from yours ;)

It's actually a map I've been looking at a lot over the past several months.

LoZompatore wrote:When I created my map I was more interested in placing elements from various sources into it, so I did not check the true correspondence to other canonical and more accurate maps: maybe that's why Chimpman had so many problems in trying to fit coastlines. By the way, the brown "ancient" coastline I used is merely indicative and approximate, especially in its eastern (dotted) part where, as you noticed, a connection with TM1 deep sea border would be desirable.

Well, that's possible. It's also possible that since I've combined maps from separate sources (and separate authors) that something has gone horribly wrong. What I really need to do is take one of Thorf's 72mph maps of the KW and Sea of Dread, scale it, and then use it as a double check to make sure everything lines up correctly.

LoZompatore wrote:The same applies to the deep water pool of the kna: I supposed that in the ancient times it was a swamp or a lake just because I saw it was sourrounded by higher lands but, in truth, the pool could just represent a region which moved downward more deeply that the nearby lands, who knows. So feel free to substitute my lake/swamp with anything else you will find more suitable.

Actually the deep water pool of the kna poses less problems for me than the "hook" beneath Ierendi - that's where you put your lizardmen. Of course I'm working with additional biases already in place, and building my maps around some of the work that Geoff Gander and myself have already done for the BC 2300 era (Mogreth and the Shimmering Lands respectively).

LoZompatore wrote:If you are interested, some years ago I made a set of 10 rough physical maps of the Known World which highlight the major (and likely) changes that could have happened from the Great rain of Fire to the present time. You'll find them here:

http://sites.google.com/site/lozomparch ... in-history

They are really helpful. I need to go spend some time with them (and with my own map) for a while before I comment further on any of their specific properties.


LoZompatore wrote:2)By the way, notice the atruaghin plateaux being about 1/3 of the original size as from CoM information. I chose that the "original" plateaux was the easternmost part of the moden one, but, again, this is just another assumption of mine: maybe it would be better to have the westernmost part as the original one, so to let the Azcan/Oltec refugees to be sheltered by it without being too close to the old (melting) icecap.

This seems like a logical assumption - it's one I've made as well... mostly because I'm lazy. I want the old plateau to be completely within the bounds of the KW - makes making the map that much easier.

LoZompatore wrote:I also supposed that the land bridge of Ostland, connecting the Northern Reaches to the Isle of Dawn, collapsed just after the Great Rain of Fire. I suppose it could be possible to have this land bridge last for a few more centuries without causing troubles to other parts of the official material.

This is one assumption I don't make, again mainly for story purposes. I wanted to build a dwarven empire in that region and I wanted that empire to be wiped out completely (read very little trace of it left) by the time the modern era comes about. Sinking it along with Taymora seemed like the perfect solution. It also made it's death much more dramatic because I can tie the Shimmering Lands destruction with Kagyar's modification of the dwarves. Those dwarves siding with Kagyar during their civil war will be rewarded. The others (who become the modrigswerg) will be smashed, and their glory sundered. :twisted:

LoZompatore wrote:3) The large island in the "BC 2000 - BC 1750" map comes from GAZ4 (Honor Island entry, IIRC) where it is said that a huge island the size of the Five Shires stood where now there is the Ierendi archipelago. Coastlines are, of course, very approximate. Feel free to change them as you like.

This is very helpful. My first intention was to start with the pre-BC 1750 man and then work my way toward the modern day. Now I think it's probably going to be more accurate if I start with the modern map and work backward.

Unfortunately the rest of the eras are going to have to wait. I really want to focus on the BC 2500 to BC 1700 time period at the moment - my brain can't handle much more than that at one time. ;)
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Seer of Yhog » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:37 am

My $0.02 on the extent of the old shoreline:

If you look at Chimp's composite map, you'll see that the sea becomes noticeably deeper once you head southeast of Hattias, which leads me to believe that the southeastern coast of old would have been more-or-less in line with the various maps that have already been developed. Also keep in mind that the continental shelf would not be uniform, but would have hills, valleys, cliffs, and other features visible on land, so lowering the sea level by X feet would not necessarily extend the shoreline uniformly.

As far as the cause of the coastal changes is concerned, I would agree that rising sea levels (from rising temperatures) would be one cause, but I would also argue that the earthquakes would have caused subsidence. So, even if the ice sheets had not melted (and the sea levels had not risen), I believe the southern coast of Brun would still have changed quite a bit. Likely, new bays would have formed, some regions might have split from the mainland (filling some of the lowlands), and some estuaries would have drowned. The end result would (IMO) have been one or two large islands being created, with the mainland still being further south than is the case in the default AC 1000 setting.
Moderator for Mystara. My moderator voice is heliotrope.

My Blog is here!
User avatar
Seer of Yhog
Black Dragon
 
Posts: 3149
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 1:29 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:13 am

Seer of Yhog wrote:If you look at Chimp's composite map, you'll see that the sea becomes noticeably deeper once you head southeast of Hattias, which leads me to believe that the southeastern coast of old would have been more-or-less in line with the various maps that have already been developed. Also keep in mind that the continental shelf would not be uniform, but would have hills, valleys, cliffs, and other features visible on land, so lowering the sea level by X feet would not necessarily extend the shoreline uniformly.

Yup, I agree with this.

Seer of Yhog wrote:As far as the cause of the coastal changes is concerned, I would agree that rising sea levels (from rising temperatures) would be one cause, but I would also argue that the earthquakes would have caused subsidence. So, even if the ice sheets had not melted (and the sea levels had not risen), I believe the southern coast of Brun would still have changed quite a bit. Likely, new bays would have formed, some regions might have split from the mainland (filling some of the lowlands), and some estuaries would have drowned. The end result would (IMO) have been one or two large islands being created, with the mainland still being further south than is the case in the default AC 1000 setting.

The southern coast of Brun has a lot of volcanic activity - just look at the PC3 map ;), so again I think you're probably right. At this level of detail though I think what it should boil down to is story. If whatever you're developing needs a bay at location X, then put one at location X. If you need an estuary gone, then remove it. Keep that in mind when we're looking at these historical maps. There can be many causes of change, and if we need to change something to fit the story better... we'll find a cause.
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:23 am

Ok, here is my first pass at mapping the overall coastal changes in the KW-Sea of Dread area. The underlying map of course represents the BC 1700 changes. The red, inner outlines represent the BC 1750 changes, and the green outer outlines represent the coasts before our geological turmoil of the time changed them.

Known World Coastlines
Again, things to keep in mind:
- This is a very rough estimation of shorelines at this point (and I'm only dealing with shorelines - not lakes, rivers, or anything else inland).
- I am assuming some level of sea rise over the BC 1750 to BC 1700 time period, but other activity may account for many of the changes as well.
- This is a work in progress at this point, so if you see something that doesn't work, then give a shout out and we'll take a look at it.
- One specific thing that most other maps of the era don't take into account is that Colhador is on an island. I'm trying to preserve that detail in the maps I've drawn. This is why the shoreline immediately south of Minrothad does not extend all the way to the trench.
- I was really only focused on the southern coasts on this map, the other coastal areas had little to no thought put into them.
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Hugin » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:04 pm

Chimpman wrote:Indeed, this all makes sense. I think our line of thought is very similar here... similar enough that regardless of the exact particulars of the situation, we both end up at precisely the same outcome - that being Taymora subsumed by the sea.

Agreed!

An you're right, that the land bridges don't need to disappear overnight. This does have implications for other portions of the world as well however, and here I'm thinking specifically of the Thanegioth Archipelago. If we assume that rising sea levels eventually drown out the land bridges, the same would be true for other land formations across the world. This means that the the Thangioth were also probably a lot larger pre BC 1750 (which is also something I'd like to explore).

I don't think they would be too much larger since the coasts seem to be fairly steep. Land will have been larger where the underwater coasts have a gentler slope. It's just generalizations though since things could have been different then what we see now.
User avatar
Hugin
Green Dragon
 
Posts: 3865
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Hugin » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:16 pm

Awesome. Thanks for the comments LoZompatore! We appreciate any thoughts to help us out.

LoZompatore wrote:The same applies to the deep water pool of the kna: I supposed that in the ancient times it was a swamp or a lake just because I saw it was sourrounded by higher lands...

I quite like the idea of a lake (perhaps with marshy/swampy areas along the shore as well). Like chimpman mentioned, it's the 'hook' that doesn't match up.

LoZompatore wrote:If you are interested, some years ago I made a set of 10 rough physical maps of the Known World which highlight the major (and likely) changes that could have happened from the Great rain of Fire to the present time.

Thanks so much for sharing the maps. They will provide some insight and be quite useful.

LoZompatore wrote:I chose that the "original" plateaux was the easternmost part of the moden one...

I'm on the fence as far as using the eastern or western portion. Both have their merits.

Chimpman wrote:I wanted to build a dwarven empire in that region and I wanted that empire to be wiped out completely (read very little trace of it left) by the time the modern era comes about. Sinking it along with Taymora seemed like the perfect solution. It also made it's death much more dramatic because I can tie the Shimmering Lands destruction with Kagyar's modification of the dwarves. Those dwarves siding with Kagyar during their civil war will be rewarded. The others (who become the modrigswerg) will be smashed, and their glory sundered. :twisted:

I'm with you here. Story overrides if it can be fit without having to smash it in; and it fits.

LoZompatore wrote:3) The large island in the "BC 2000 - BC 1750" map comes from GAZ4 (Honor Island entry, IIRC) where it is said that a huge island the size of the Five Shires stood where now there is the Ierendi archipelago.

Nice catch there. It also provides another land mass to be violently changed in 1700 BC. Looks like Chimpman is using it already, so good.
User avatar
Hugin
Green Dragon
 
Posts: 3865
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:30 pm

Hugin wrote:
LoZompatore wrote:3) The large island in the "BC 2000 - BC 1750" map comes from GAZ4 (Honor Island entry, IIRC) where it is said that a huge island the size of the Five Shires stood where now there is the Ierendi archipelago.

Nice catch there. It also provides another land mass to be violently changed in 1700 BC. Looks like Chimpman is using it already, so good.

Yup, thanks to LoZompatore's comments and maps (otherwise I would have probably missed it).

After posting the map I noticed a few minor things that I want to change. I know Geoff's mentioned pirates of the time based off the coast of Thyatis, but in my latest map I have those islands connected to the mainland - so that won't work. I don't think it's that big a deal to disconnect them again though.

Anyone else see anything that should be investigated/changed?


EDIT: Oh, I noticed another thing as well. Since I don't have X7, I can't be sure but it looks like it depicts a trench? or something starting from the hook, and going down toward the Isle of Dread. I'm thinking that if it is a trench, it would probably extend past the the IoD creating two separate islands down there (by cutting off the left most portion of the landmass I have drawn currently.
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Hugin » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:05 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:If you look at Chimp's composite map, you'll see that the sea becomes noticeably deeper once you head southeast of Hattias, which leads me to believe that the southeastern coast of old would have been more-or-less in line with the various maps that have already been developed. Also keep in mind that the continental shelf would not be uniform, but would have hills, valleys, cliffs, and other features visible on land, so lowering the sea level by X feet would not necessarily extend the shoreline uniformly.

Absolutely. Contour lines only show you the flow of the land along that specific level. Everything between lines is playable as long as it stays within the height boundaries set by the contours.

As far as the cause of the coastal changes is concerned, I would agree that rising sea levels (from rising temperatures) would be one cause, but I would also argue that the earthquakes would have caused subsidence. So, even if the ice sheets had not melted (and the sea levels had not risen), I believe the southern coast of Brun would still have changed quite a bit.

I basically agree with you but Mystara poses some interesting challenges. I'm going slightly off topic here (or maybe not, I don't know), but Mystara doesn't have Earth-like tectonic plates simply because it doesn't have a crust floating on magma, and tectonic activity is the main source of earthquakes and volcanism. Mystara needs to work under a different set of rules than our Earth, as it should anyway in my opinion.

So, here is the set-up (not necessarily to be used in our project here, but I find it interesting to explore);
Mystara is a world of magic. Magic does not merely interact with scientific and physical laws to produce the desired results, it dictates and overrides reality. I used to apply science and physics to the world of Mystara when explaining things; no longer. The blacksmith that transforms iron into steel on Mystara isn't manipulating the carbon content of the iron, he has enhanced his craft to the point that he magically alters the iron to become steel (He can even scribe it down in a spell-like fashion, but another blacksmith needs the necessary experience to be able to actually perform it; i.e. the skill and practice required). The world isn't built of atoms and particles and molecules, but rather elements and Spheres of Power.

So, for example, I'd have volcanoes on Mystara powered by elemental imbalances and forces where the Plane of Fire and the Sphere of Energy have achieved dominance in relation to the others. Earthquakes could be the result of the Sphere of Energy winning a battle against the Sphere of Matter in a contest over the Element of Earth, influenced by numerous other possibilities.

Anyway, a view like this makes PC3's Fantasy Physics & Engineering go from game-play hand-waving, to the reality of how a non-scientific, magical world would operate. Not to mention superstitions, which now have a basis in the reality of the world; these strange actions and words have been observed to perform a function and have therefore been passed down from generation to generation.

Side trek over. :oops:

Likely, new bays would have formed, some regions might have split from the mainland (filling some of the lowlands), and some estuaries would have drowned. The end result would (IMO) have been one or two large islands being created, with the mainland still being further south than is the case in the default AC 1000 setting.

True. This seems to be something that we'd like to see as well. It was a great catastrophe in this region and so it makes sense that the changes were significant to the same degree.
User avatar
Hugin
Green Dragon
 
Posts: 3865
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:53 pm

Ok, I'm stuck over this issue of the Dragon's Breath Reef (see discussion in GazXF1 Sea of Dread: Teki-Nura-Ria and environs) so rather than bang my head about it, I've decided to create another map and see if that will help.

So following OldDawg's suggestion I thought I would add X6 into the equation. The plan is to take this outer world map and focus in on the area including the Serpent Peninsula and Known World. I'll create a composite of that map, the above historical composite that we've been looking at, and Thorf's Serpent Peninsula map ( a replica from X6 which is the only map of the area I've seen so far that contains undersea topography).

Hopefully this will let us take another step back and maybe get a better idea of the overall topography of the Sea of Dread.
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:48 am

Ok, uploaded the Ocean Topography map. Now. Need. Sleep. ;) Will post more tomorrow.
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Hugin » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:34 pm

You've been busy! Alright, I've taken a look at it and made some markings to suggest some ideas. Here is your map with my lines on it: Image

Regarding the 'hook trench' and the long coral reef, could we have the trench extend west toward the Serpent Peninsula while the reef heads down toward the Thanegioth Archipelago. Among other reasons I'll mention in a moment, this deep water trench next to a major shallow water reef would make these waters very dangerous. The reef extends all the way to the islands of the south; perhaps this was an archipelago / land bridge at one time, before the rising ocean waters submerged it.

[I just realized I was making a huge mistake in timeframes; I was thinking that the melting of the old polar ice caps was happening much quicker (for some stupid reason I can't imagine, unless I was getting all discombobulated with 1750 BC and 1700 BC). We have thirteen hundred years of melting ice and rising waters before Taymora is engulfed by the sea. The other thing that is interesting is that these high sea levels are likely to be slowly lowering again as the new polar regions begin their build up of ice and snow.]

I think the central basin should extend east towards the Isle of Dawn to some degree or another. It won't likely be quite as deep and the exact shape isn't indicated by canon as far as I know so we can just make as we feel reasonable.

Notice that I have suggested a 'shallow' band that goes from the Serpent Peninsula all the way to the Isle of Dawn (being between the depths of 100' (?) and 250' (as suggested by Thorf's map). This shallow band is another great contributor to the Sea of Dread's reputation. Deep waters to the north and west allow large ocean swells that can become massively destructive waves and white caps when they hit the great coral reef or the Thanegioth shallows.

This band would also make early western migration from the Isle of Dawn far easier and more likely back when the sea levels were lower and the islands larger and closer together. They could travel all the way west without having to lose sight of the land they leave behind or they are heading towards.

One last minor suggestion is that the Serpent Strait have a more gradual slope on the northern side (again, as shown on Thorf's map) while the southern slope is considerably steeper (just as a consequence of Davania being so close).

Thoughts?
User avatar
Hugin
Green Dragon
 
Posts: 3865
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Seer of Yhog » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:40 pm

Great stuff - I like what you did with this!
Moderator for Mystara. My moderator voice is heliotrope.

My Blog is here!
User avatar
Seer of Yhog
Black Dragon
 
Posts: 3149
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 1:29 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Chimpman » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:56 pm

Hi Hugin,

My initial thoughts are that I like it :D.
Hugin wrote:Regarding the 'hook trench' and the long coral reef, could we have the trench extend west toward the Serpent Peninsula while the reef heads down toward the Thanegioth Archipelago. Among other reasons I'll mention in a moment, this deep water trench next to a major shallow water reef would make these waters very dangerous. The reef extends all the way to the islands of the south; perhaps this was an archipelago / land bridge at one time, before the rising ocean waters submerged it.

:!: Extending the trench west instead of east is one thing that never occurred to me. I like the idea. So looking at the map, this means that the reef is bordered (west and east) by much deeper waters. I agree that this would make these seas a very dangerous place. I'm wondering what this would mean with regards to the sea currents (both in ancient times and in the present. I imagine that the currents would change quite a bit over the millenia. This may actually be one reason that the main elven migration travels along the western coast of Brun, rather than sailing straight across the Sea of Dread.

The other idea here is just as interesting, and again I like it. It would make sense for the reef to have been something like a land bridge or archipelago. I'd opt for the latter, simply for the reason that I don't want a land route directly to the Isle of Dread in ancient times... although (and I guess I'm flip flopping a bit) such a bridge could explain Oltec colonization of those islands in an earlier time (pre- BC 2000?).

Extending the IoD islands to the tip of the Serpent Peninsula also makes a lot of sense.

Hugin wrote:[I just realized I was making a huge mistake in timeframes; I was thinking that the melting of the old polar ice caps was happening much quicker (for some stupid reason I can't imagine, unless I was getting all discombobulated with 1750 BC and 1700 BC). We have thirteen hundred years of melting ice and rising waters before Taymora is engulfed by the sea. The other thing that is interesting is that these high sea levels are likely to be slowly lowering again as the new polar regions begin their build up of ice and snow.]

I agree, on both counts.

Hugin wrote:I think the central basin should extend east towards the Isle of Dawn to some degree or another. It won't likely be quite as deep and the exact shape isn't indicated by canon as far as I know so we can just make as we feel reasonable.

I mostly agree. I think we should extend the map out and take a look at the land features on the western coast of the IoDawn just to see if that gives us any additional ideas.

Hugin wrote:Notice that I have suggested a 'shallow' band that goes from the Serpent Peninsula all the way to the Isle of Dawn (being between the depths of 100' (?) and 250' (as suggested by Thorf's map). This shallow band is another great contributor to the Sea of Dread's reputation. Deep waters to the north and west allow large ocean swells that can become massively destructive waves and white caps when they hit the great coral reef or the Thanegioth shallows.

Yes, I like this as well. Just imagine if the water levels dropped enough, this entire region would be an inland sea! I'm not sure this has ever happened in Mystara's past, but the potential is there.

Hugin wrote:This band would also make early western migration from the Isle of Dawn far easier and more likely back when the sea levels were lower and the islands larger and closer together. They could travel all the way west without having to lose sight of the land they leave behind or they are heading towards.

This is also a great idea and something to keep in mind when discussing Tanagoro migration patterns. IIRC there was a thread recently about that topic, and I think this might be a very interesting idea to include there.

Hugin wrote:One last minor suggestion is that the Serpent Strait have a more gradual slope on the northern side (again, as shown on Thorf's map) while the southern slope is considerably steeper (just as a consequence of Davania being so close).

Agreed.
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.
User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
 
Posts: 7495
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Location: USA, California

Re: Historical Mapping in the KW and Sea of Dread

Postby Hugin » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:36 pm

Chimpman wrote:Hi Hugin,

My initial thoughts are that I like it :D.

Thanks!

The other idea here is just as interesting, and again I like it. It would make sense for the reef to have been something like a land bridge or archipelago. I'd opt for the latter, simply for the reason that I don't want a land route directly to the Isle of Dread in ancient times... although (and I guess I'm flip flopping a bit) such a bridge could explain Oltec colonization of those islands in an earlier time (pre- BC 2000?).

I actually like the idea of an archipelago better myself too, so...
However, as for the Oltec colonization, I have them coming up along the western side of the Serpent Peninsula to the Black Mountains. Since this was pre-GRoF, I feel it's too cold for them to come up into the arctic circle's Sea of Dread region. There's a short article on the Vaults with my thoughts.

I mostly agree. I think we should extend the map out and take a look at the land features on the western coast of the IoDawn just to see if that gives us any additional ideas.

I'm all for that!

This is also a great idea and something to keep in mind when discussing Tanagoro migration patterns. IIRC there was a thread recently about that topic, and I think this might be a very interesting idea to include there.

I'll have to look for that thread, but yes, skirting along the southern fringes of the Thanegioth Archipelago would make nice path for the Tanagoro to follow. It would be quite cool but at least they could stay below the arctic circle.
User avatar
Hugin
Green Dragon
 
Posts: 3865
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Next

Return to Mystara

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest