[GazH] Elven Migrations

Weird red metals, dominions, immortals, hollow planets, invisible moons, and a lot of glorified magic zeppelins. It's all here.
The Book-House: Find Mystara products, Find Known World products.

Moderators: Seer of Yhog, Gawain_VIII, Havard, Cthulhudrew

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7925
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

[GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:59 am

Havard brought up the topic of elves in Karameikos, and I thought I'd share the compilation of events that I've scavenged from various timelines. This is simply my attempt to organize all of the different elven groups since the GRoF. It's not a comprehensive list.

BC 4000 - BC 3000
Southern (Grunland/Vulcanian) Elves -> Blackmoor colonists

BC 3000
Blackmoor colonists -> Shadow Elf ancestors (seek shelter underground, Dark Elves?)
Blackmoor colonists -> Wendarian elves (manage to survive above ground)

BC 2800
Vulcania Elves -> Returnists (nature loving elves under Ilsundal begin northward migrations)
Vulcania Elves -> Technologists (remain in Vulcania and presumably still practice Blackmoorian technology)

BC 2500
Vulcania Elves -> Second Separatists (begin their own migration - Belcadiz, Truedyl, Icevale, Schattenalfen, and the Sheyallia)

BC 2400
Vulcania Elves -> presumed destroyed and never heard from again
Vulcania Elves -> wild antarctic elves (VotPA)
Vulcania Elves -> Blacklore Elves (in HW)

BC 2300
Returnists + Second Separatists -> Ilsundal's Migration (both groups of Vulcanian elves meet up in the Savage Coast).

BC 2200
Ilsundal's Migration-> Glantrian Elves (Icevale)
Ilsundal's Migration -> Glantrian Elves (Truedyl)

BC 2100
Ilsundal's Migration -> Meditor and Verdier settle in southern Karameikos
Ilsundal's Migration -> Sylvan Realm (the Returnists reach their final destination)

BC 1950
Shadow Elves splinter group -> Glantrian Elves (a small band of Shadow Elves moves back to the surface, though they have no contact with others of their kind - are these the Schattenalfen?)
Shadow Elf ancestors -> Atziann's splinter group (found first Aengmor) [Actual time unknown, but must be before BC 1500, and probably before BC 1700]

BC 1700
Glantrian Elves -> Schattenalfen
Glantrian Elves -> Icevale elves (in HW)
Glantrian Elves -> Gentle Folk (travel underground but will reemerge in BC 1300)

BC 1420 - 1402
Schattenalfen -> Mictlan/Aengmor (this is the second founding of Aengmor)

BC 1400
Aengmor -> Schattenalfen (a small group of elves is driven off and find the HW)

BC 1300
Gentle Folk emerge from underground

BC 1290
Aengmor -> Schattenalfen (the city is surrounded by lava and all other elves flee.

BC 1104
Shadow Elf ancestors -> Shadow Elves (find Refuge of the Stone)

BC 1000
Gentle Folk -> destroyed on OW, and moved to HW

BC 800
Sylvan Realm -> Alfheim (Mealiden leads his followers across Rainbow to found Alfheim)
Sylvan Realm -> Callarii (split from Mealiden colonists)
Sylvan Realm -> Shiye (split from Mealiden colonists under Eiryndul, take Rainbow Path to Alphatia)
Sylvan Realm -> Trueflower clan (Ilsundal followers left on Great Escarpment on IoD - M5)

BC 500 ???
Shiye -> Shyre Lawr (declared elven kingdom)

AC 600
Sylvan Realm -> Alfheim (Feadiel)

AC 700
Alfheim -> Glantri (Erewan)

I hope this format makes sense. What we really need is a nice graphical representation or chart, but this will do for starters.
Last edited by Chimpman on Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:30 pm, edited 8 times in total.
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:58 am

Chimpman wrote:Havard brought up the topic of elves in Karameikos, and I thought I'd share the compilation of events that I've scavenged from various timelines. This is simply my attempt to organize all of the different elven groups since the GRoF. It's not a comprehensive list.
Great sum of elven migration, Chip! 8-)

I've got some comments about it:
Chimpman wrote:Shadow Elf ancestors -> Atziann's splinter group (found first Aengmor) [Actual time unknown, but must be before BC 1500, and probably before BC 1700]
I'm not sure about this one, as canon messes the whole issue a lot. Main infos come from GAZ13, DM's Guide, pages 6 and 44. We know that:

1) BC 1950: some or all Shadowelf ancestors (which I called underground elves) settle in Glantri, but don't meet any of the other elven settlers who came here with Ilsundal (first and second migration, see below) in BC 2200. Where can their settlements be put in order to have them not meeting their near kins? Broken Lands (not broken at the time)? (GAZ13, page 6)

2) A small group of Shadowelf ancestors follow their leader Atziann (then a mortal elf) and found the first city of Aengmor. We don't know nor the time of this event, nor the location of the city; but we know that the Shadowelf were later ousted by Azcans, and that this Aengmor was still the same city that was conquered by Atzanteotl-following Shadowelf ancestors in BC 1420. Shadowelf history doesn't seem to have any account of the pre-BC 1420 history of the city site (i.e. they don't know it had been first founded by the elves, they know only that Atzanteotl ordered them to have the city reconquered - and if it was the elves' ancient city, it makes sense that he did so). (GAZ13, page 44)

3) Both HW set (DM Guide, page 13) and WotI (Codex of the Immortals, page 16) seem to confirm that Atziann's followers were indeed the elves that had settled in Glantri. But GAZ13 says they were ousted by the Azcans... How can this be possible?

To fix things, I'm thinking if it'd be better to have first Aengmor as an underground city.

Timeline (dateless) of the events could be as follows:

BC 3000: Most elves of the Blackmoor colony go underground to flee from nuclear holocaust caused by the GRoF; from now on, I'll call them Underground Elves.
BC ???: A splinter group of Underground Elves led by Atziann separates itself from the main group, and found the underground city of Aengmor.
BC ??? (pre-1950): The Azcans discover Aengmor underground, and oust the elves from it. Atziann leads its followers in more underground wanderings: most settle in Glantri, on the outer world, while some continue their journey and could be those Dark Elves of GAZ7.
BC 1950: Other Underground Elves learn that Atziann and his followers have settled in Glantri, and join them there; they don't meet any of the other elven settlers in Glantri.
BC 1700: Glantrian Catastrophe. The Underground Elves flee again into the earth, while Atziann breaks with his closer followers from the main group (perhaps they cast him away), and slowly sees all of his followers die.
BC 1650: Atziann finds shelter among the Azcans.
BC 1500: Atziann becomes Immortal, and begins to take followers among the Azcans and among the Underground Elves* (these will be the ancestors of the Schattenalf clan).

* Note that Schattenalfen's history in HW set is largely wrong, as it says that Aztanteotl takes away many elves from the worship of Rafiel. It's a pity that other sources (GAZ13) clearly say that Rafiel met the elves in the Refuge of Stone later, around BC 1104...

How does it seems?
I tried to preserve all canon sources (apart from HW).
Chimpman wrote:BC 2500
Vulcania Elves -> Second Separatists (begin their own migration - Belcadiz rumored to be of this branch)
Somewhere in Champions of Mystara it says that this second group rejoins Ilsundal's migration around the Adakkian Sound region, IIRC. This means that there's only ONE migration going to Brun, from there on. And this means that, if canon continues to refer to one of them as "second migration", perhaps there's an ethnic peculiarity in it? Was it made up by brown-skinned elves only (Belcadiz)?
Chimpman wrote:BC 2400
Vulcania Elves -> presumed destroyed and never heard from again
These become the antarctic, savage elves met by Haldemar in VotPA, and the Blacklore of HW.
Chimpman wrote:BC 2200
Returnists -> Glantrian Elves
Second Separatists -> Glantrian Elves
IMO, a branch of the Returnists spawns the Icevale Elves, while Second Separatists spawn the future Gentle Folk, and the Belcadiz. Ancestors of the Shadowelves are not connected to any of these groups.
Chimpman wrote:BC 1950
Shadow Elves (probably Schattenalfen) -> Glantrian Elves (a small band of Shadow Elves moves back to the surface, though they have no contact with others of their kind)

BC 1700
Glantrian Elves -> Schattenalfen
See above for my thoughts about this.
Chimpman wrote:Glantrian Elves -> Gentle Folk (in HW, however some branch of this clan must survive or re-emerge on the OW until BC 1300)
I think that this whole group re-emerges from the earth in the Five Shires area (it's clearly said in HW), and then they disappear when the orcs conquer the Hins, around BC 1000.

BTW, I think we should also explain within the timeline why there are so many different ethnicities of elves. I mean, the overly-tall Icevale, the small and brown Flamenco, the small and fair Wood Elves, the higher and fair (but with black hair) Shiye, and so on.

In another post, if you agree, I'll list all canon reference I've found detailing this sort of elven phisical characteristics, and the groupings I've made up to try to fix them. The aim is an attempt to define some elven ethnicities (like humans' ones).
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
happylarry
Ogre
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:44 pm
Gender: male
Location: Cheshire

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by happylarry » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:35 am

great list. I wondered if it would be useful to agree some titles for some fo the earlier groups to avoid confusion - e.g. proto-Glantrian or something

also - there is cBC500 Elves from ??Alfheim found Shyre Lawr. (D of E book 3 p10) - as far as I'm aware, very little else is said about them, other than that they are more reclusive than normal elves and more of a potential danger to travellers. of course, I may have missed other canon references

(as so little is said, it might be possible to link this to 800BC and coming from Sylvan Realm, or to do somethign else entirely as they are only cousins of the Alfheim elves)

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:16 pm

happylarry wrote:(as so little is said, it might be possible to link this to 800BC and coming from Sylvan Realm, or to do somethign else entirely as they are only cousins of the Alfheim elves)
On the Italian MMB and in his Codex Immortalis, Marco Dalmonte linked the Shiye with the migration from the Sylvan Realm - and I went with this solution as well. ;)

Basically, Eiryndul lured away from Mealiden's migration a number of clans - some were indeed followers of Eiryndul, while others were followers of Ilsundal. Taking a different branch of the Rainbow Bridge, they went far to the east in regard to their kins, who landed in western Thyatis.

Eiryndul managed to free the migration of Ilsundal-following clans, stranding most of them on the Isle of Dawn (the Trueflower clan featured in M5 was among them, and also supposed elven clans inhabiting the rest of the Isle). Then he had the rest of the elves landing in central Alphatia, Shiye-Lawr area. It is around BC 800.

Later, a number of clans, discontent with the leadership of the Shiye, leave for Norwold.
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
micky
Cloud Giant
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Virginia USA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:09 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
Chimpman wrote:BC 2500
Vulcania Elves -> Second Separatists (begin their own migration - Belcadiz rumored to be of this branch)
Somewhere in Champions of Mystara it says that this second group rejoins Ilsundal's migration around the Adakkian Sound region, IIRC. This means that there's only ONE migration going to Brun, from there on. And this means that, if canon continues to refer to one of them as "second migration", perhaps there's an ethnic peculiarity in it? Was it made up by brown-skinned elves only (Belcadiz)?

GAZ3 also states that the Belcadiz came from a far land beyond the Seas of Thangioth. Isn't there a brown-skinned elf enclave on the Shadow Coast? If so.. possibly it came from a splinter group and was the one that rejoined Ilsundal.. perhaps they settled the Shadow Coast rather than going to the Sylvian Realm. As far as the Belcadiz... as was posted before.. they have such different mannerisms from the typical elf it must be assumed they diverged from the forest elves long long ago and developed their own culture. Prehaps a completely different and separate history that doesn't follow anything that canon has put out.

splitting from them.. perhaps at this point.. with a divergent history yet to be written...

BC 2800
Vulcania Elves -> Returnists (nature loving elves under Ilsundal begin northward migrations)
Vulcania Elves -> Technologists (remain in Vulcania and presumably still practice Blackmoorian technology)



Chimpman wrote:BC 2200
Returnists -> Glantrian Elves
Second Separatists -> Glantrian Elves
IMO, a branch of the Returnists spawns the Icevale Elves, while Second Separatists spawn the future Gentle Folk, and the Belcadiz. Ancestors of the Shadowelves are not connected to any of these groups.

find it hard to comprehend the Gentle Folk and the Belcadiz being spawn of the same mother hahaha. At least in such a short 'in elven standards' timeframe. Wasn't it mentioned in the other thread that we would be talking a timeframe of only 500 years... less than the lifespan of an elf?




BTW, I think we should also explain within the timeline why there are so many different ethnicities of elves. I mean, the overly-tall Icevale, the small and brown Flamenco, the small and fair Wood Elves, the higher and fair (but with black hair) Shiye, and so on.

In another post, if you agree, I'll list all canon reference I've found detailing this sort of elven phisical characteristics, and the groupings I've made up to try to fix them. The aim is an attempt to define some elven ethnicities (like humans' ones).

an excellent idea :D
He does not have a mandate. He does not have large congressional majorities. If a small minority in the Tea Party could stop President Obama, then we the majority can stop a petty tyrant named Trump

User avatar
micky
Cloud Giant
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Virginia USA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:47 pm

thinking out loud about the Belcadiz... and working backwards from we do know about them.


(discounting my little project which makes mention of Belcadiz humans that have taken the lifestyle, culture of the Belcadiz through intermarriage) The population of the Belcadiz, 3500 years after leaving Vulcania was only 20 to 25 thousand. (13k in the Principality and perhaps x2 living outside the borders of the Principality)... what does that tell us.

the first thing that pops into my mind... the Belcadiz of Glantri are not the sole descendants of those who originally fled and those in Glantri are a splinter group of something else. . For reasons unknown at this point... with those reason it might be reasoned out why they came to Glantri.... and the $24K question.. when did they come to Glantri.
He does not have a mandate. He does not have large congressional majorities. If a small minority in the Tea Party could stop President Obama, then we the majority can stop a petty tyrant named Trump

User avatar
micky
Cloud Giant
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Virginia USA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:27 pm

something to chew on... Andrew posted this on Pandius... interesting... good explanation for the physical differences... and perhaps the 'urban' nature of the elves can be explained to be more a cultural evolution from living the in hills of Glantri for centuries years and away from the forests...



Looking at the Hollow World set, we learn that some survivors of that second migration settled in Glantri c. 2200 BC. These were not the shadow elf clans, who had already gone underground (and would not return to the surface until 1950 BC- see Gaz13, pg. 6) and would never encounter these other elves. Among these "second Returnists" were the Truedyl clan, and the ancestors of the Icevale elves and Schattenalfen. (Hollow World, pp. 43, 45, and 83, respectively.)

It's possible that the Belcadiz were among these elves, and that they, too, were driven underground (see James Mishler's History of the Ispan People for more on this theory).

However, I am going to postulate that they weren't living in Glantri at the time.

The Outer World Postcataclysmic map from the Hollow World set shows the route of the Returnist migrations, and shows where, in 2200 BC, the "Second Returnists" split off at the Serpent Peninsula and went to Glantri. This map is different from the one in Gaz5, which shows Ilsundal's group going up the Arm of the Immortals rather than up the Serpent Peninsula. This entry from Champions of Mystara (p. 35) helps us understand the different maps- "By 2300 BC [Ilsundal's group] had crossed the Strait of Izonda to the Immortal's Arm, then headed east along the Savage Coast. Another group... took another route through the Adakkian Sound, where they rejoined with Ilsundal's band and continued with them."

The 2500 BC migration, then (with the Belcadiz, Truedyl, Icevale, Schattenalfen, and- we now learn- the Sheyallia) is the "Second Returnist" migration that took a shortcut across the Serpent Peninsula.

Still following? I hope so.

At this point, the "Mass Returnist" group seems to have issues. The Sheyallia, for whatever reason decides to backtrack and goes back to the jungles of the Serpent Peninsula- maybe for the same reasons they didn't join Ilsundal's migration in 2800 BC (he smells). The rest continue east, with the Meditor and Verdier eventually building some boats and sailing on to Traladara/Thyatis.

Everyone else stops by Glantri, to check on the Blackmoor elves (now the burgeoning shadow elves). Seeing nothing, most of them move on- well, except the Truedyl, Icevale, and Schattenalfen (as we've seen). Within a century, the "Mass Returnist" group lands up in the Sylvan Realm, where they live happily ever after for more than a millennium.

So what happened to the Belcadiz in my theory? Did they go to the Sylvan Realm, or underground? Neither.

See, I left out a part. In 2300 BC (according to Red Steel), "Elves arrive... and settle the eastern and central Savage Coast. They live alongside, but not among, the Oltecs."

Now, this was before the Second Returnists met the First Returnists, but, given all the splitting off (and whatever politics) that took place among the two groups... what if the Belcadiz decided to not go with Ilsundal and the rest, and instead sought out their cousins they had been told were back westwards a bit?

The Belcadiz then decide to settle in and among the Savage Coast. Over time, the nature of the soil there (see Dragon #171 and 172), or interbreeding with dark skinned Oltecs and Nithians, or both- combine to make the Savage Coastal elves darker skinned than their sylvan cousins. Their artistic nature also combines with the native Oltec and Nithian cultures to give rise to the Spanish-like Belcadiz culture we know and love.

At some point, around 450-500 BC, due to pressures from an influx of human settlers from Traladara and the northern plains, the Savage Coastal elves begin to withdraw from the region. Notably among them are the Belcadiz clan of elves, who decide to emigrate eastwards in search of their long lost kin. They travel to Glantri, arriving around 700 BC. The rest is history.
He does not have a mandate. He does not have large congressional majorities. If a small minority in the Tea Party could stop President Obama, then we the majority can stop a petty tyrant named Trump

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7925
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:04 pm

Ok, First there is a lot here, so I may break some of these posts up to deal with them easier.
Zendrolion wrote:To fix things, I'm thinking if it'd be better to have first Aengmor as an underground city.

Timeline (dateless) of the events could be as follows:

BC 3000: Most elves of the Blackmoor colony go underground to flee from nuclear holocaust caused by the GRoF; from now on, I'll call them Underground Elves.
BC ???: A splinter group of Underground Elves led by Atziann separates itself from the main group, and found the underground city of Aengmor.
BC ??? (pre-1950): The Azcans discover Aengmor underground, and oust the elves from it. Atziann leads its followers in more underground wanderings: most settle in Glantri, on the outer world, while some continue their journey and could be those Dark Elves of GAZ7.
BC 1950: Other Underground Elves learn that Atziann and his followers have settled in Glantri, and join them there; they don't meet any of the other elven settlers in Glantri.
BC 1700: Glantrian Catastrophe. The Underground Elves flee again into the earth, while Atziann breaks with his closer followers from the main group (perhaps they cast him away), and slowly sees all of his followers die.
BC 1650: Atziann finds shelter among the Azcans.
BC 1500: Atziann becomes Immortal, and begins to take followers among the Azcans and among the Underground Elves* (these will be the ancestors of the Schattenalf clan).
I like it. This follows very closely my own thoughts. Let me add some additional points.
1) The majority of Azcans and Oltecs were removed from the OW and placed in the HW in BC 3000.
2) However, a small population of Azcans remained and took refuge under the Great Plateau in BC 2800

So we know there are Azcans living on the surface (or beneath it) in BC 2800... and these are not the same as the HW Azcans (and hence not the same people that Atrautzin leads back to the surface). However since they live underground, I think it's not unlikely that they would have contact (and conflict) with the underground elves in the area. So it is possible that Atziann and his clan (now all destroyed) built the first Aengmor, and that they were ousted from the city by Azcans living under the Great Plateau.

3) We also know there were a series of catastrophes in the BC 1750 - BC 1700 period.
4) By the time Atrautzin finds the location it is abandoned, and he calls it the "City of the Dead"

So I think it is safe to assume that the city was destroyed in the BC 1750 to BC 1700 range, and then later "found" by Atrautzin in BC 1468. However the elves that Atzanteotle (now immortal) leads back to the city in BC 1420 are not the same clan of elves who built it originally. Atzanteotle's original clan is dead at this point.
This is actually very interesting because it means that no one culture has even held Aengmor more than once. They take the city and are then pushed out by someone else.
Zendrolion wrote:
Chimpman wrote:BC 2500
Vulcania Elves -> Second Separatists (begin their own migration - Belcadiz rumored to be of this branch)
Somewhere in Champions of Mystara it says that this second group rejoins Ilsundal's migration around the Adakkian Sound region, IIRC. This means that there's only ONE migration going to Brun, from there on. And this means that, if canon continues to refer to one of them as "second migration", perhaps there's an ethnic peculiarity in it? Was it made up by brown-skinned elves only (Belcadiz)?
Thanks, I recalled this but didn't have CoM material handy. I'll try to modify the above to reflect this. Do we have a date for their meet-up?
Zendrolion wrote:
Chimpman wrote:BC 2400
Vulcania Elves -> presumed destroyed and never heard from again
These become the antarctic, savage elves met by Haldemar in VotPA, and the Blacklore of HW.
Thanks, I'll add these in too.
Zendrolion wrote:
Chimpman wrote:BC 2200
Returnists -> Glantrian Elves
Second Separatists -> Glantrian Elves
IMO, a branch of the Returnists spawns the Icevale Elves, while Second Separatists spawn the future Gentle Folk, and the Belcadiz. Ancestors of the Shadowelves are not connected to any of these groups.
Agree wrt the Shadow Elves. I might flip Icevale Elves and Gentle Folk, but either way can make sense to me. I think one thing to keep in mind (and micky brings up this point in his post) is that when I say "Second Separatists" that is an umbrella term for all elves leaving Vulcania at that time. We can have disparate clans traveling together (that may have very different physical and cultural attributes).
Zendrolion wrote:
Chimpman wrote:Glantrian Elves -> Gentle Folk (in HW, however some branch of this clan must survive or re-emerge on the OW until BC 1300)
I think that this whole group re-emerges from the earth in the Five Shires area (it's clearly said in HW), and then they disappear when the orcs conquer the Hins, around BC 1000.
Thanks here too. This makes much more sense. So the Gentle Folk probably remain fairly close to the surface and re-emerge on the OW. 300 years later they are moved to the HW by the immortals.
Zendrolion wrote:BTW, I think we should also explain within the timeline why there are so many different ethnicities of elves. I mean, the overly-tall Icevale, the small and brown Flamenco, the small and fair Wood Elves, the higher and fair (but with black hair) Shiye, and so on.

In another post, if you agree, I'll list all canon reference I've found detailing this sort of elven phisical characteristics, and the groupings I've made up to try to fix them. The aim is an attempt to define some elven ethnicities (like humans' ones).
I'd love to see what you have, so post away. One thing to keep in mind though is that these elves could have diverged from one another on Vulcania (starting all the way from BC 6000). Their differences don't have to be explained as evolution after the GRoF. One interesting thing that Havard brought up in another post is the physical similarities between Shadow Elves and the Verdier (water elves). So even though their cultures are vastly different in AC 1000, it could be that they share a common ancestor stock.
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7925
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:49 pm

I want to get to other folks comments, but first want to dwell on this event for a while:
Gaz13 wrote:Atzanteotl was a hero among a splintered, tiny fragment of the ancestors of the shadow elves isolated from the bulk of their folk after the Rain of Fire. This splinter group first built Aengmor in the long-lost past. Then, this small group of elves was ousted by the Azcans, who took over the city. By this time, Atzanteotl had achieved Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy.
Gaz13 - pg ? DM's Guide
Zen, I think this is the quote that is really throwing a monkey wrench into the whole timeline, and I don't even think that the quote is consistent with itself. It's the last line that is confusing, "By this time Atzanteotle had achieved Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy." The more I read that the more I'm thinking something is wrong.

We know Atzanteotle ascended in BC 1500. We also know that Atrautzin's Azcans took over the city in BC 1468, but that the city was abandoned when they got there. So there is no way possible that Azcans drove Shattenalfen out of the city after Atzanteotle ascends. It's the other way around. How do we deal with this statement?
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7925
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:56 pm

happylarry wrote:great list. I wondered if it would be useful to agree some titles for some fo the earlier groups to avoid confusion - e.g. proto-Glantrian or something

also - there is cBC500 Elves from ??Alfheim found Shyre Lawr. (D of E book 3 p10) - as far as I'm aware, very little else is said about them, other than that they are more reclusive than normal elves and more of a potential danger to travellers. of course, I may have missed other canon references

(as so little is said, it might be possible to link this to 800BC and coming from Sylvan Realm, or to do somethign else entirely as they are only cousins of the Alfheim elves)
Thanks HL! I'll put this in as a placeholder at the BC 500 date and we can decide what to do with it from there. Linking it to the BC 800 event makes sense, but I don't want to lock that in just yet.
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7925
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:12 pm

micky wrote:
GAZ3 also states that the Belcadiz came from a far land beyond the Seas of Thangioth. Isn't there a brown-skinned elf enclave on the Shadow Coast? If so.. possibly it came from a splinter group and was the one that rejoined Ilsundal.. perhaps they settled the Shadow Coast rather than going to the Sylvian Realm. As far as the Belcadiz... as was posted before.. they have such different mannerisms from the typical elf it must be assumed they diverged from the forest elves long long ago and developed their own culture. Prehaps a completely different and separate history that doesn't follow anything that canon has put out.

splitting from them.. perhaps at this point.. with a divergent history yet to be written...

This is my thought too. Many of the differences between elven culture could stem from before they left Vulcania. There is no reason to think that all elves there shared a common culture. However in the case of the Belcadiz, I think it is likely that they incorporated elements of human culture from the SBs on their journey to Glantri. I don' t know if there is canon to support this though, but it seems reasonable.

Another point; it could be that many of the Second Separatists chose not to follow Ilsundal all the way to the Sylvan Realm, although they did join up with and travel (to Brun) with the first group to leave Vulcania. As Zen says this happend at some point (probably around BC 2300, but I can't find a date for it yet) in the Addakian Sound region. Again as Zen says, all elves were under Ilsundal's umbrella by the time they came to Brun, but perhaps all that left to colonize in the KW were originally part of the Second Separatists group?

micky wrote:
Chimpman wrote:BC 2200
Returnists -> Glantrian Elves
Second Separatists -> Glantrian Elves

IMO, a branch of the Returnists spawns the Icevale Elves, while Second Separatists spawn the future Gentle Folk, and the Belcadiz. Ancestors of the Shadowelves are not connected to any of these groups.

find it hard to comprehend the Gentle Folk and the Belcadiz being spawn of the same mother hahaha. At least in such a short 'in elven standards' timeframe. Wasn't it mentioned in the other thread that we would be talking a timeframe of only 500 years... less than the lifespan of an elf?

I don't think this is actually meant to represent ancestral lines. It was more just a way for me to organize clans. It is totally possible that very different clans (Gentle Folk and Belcadiz) choose to travel together when they left Vulcania... however that doesn't necessarily mean they are closely related to one another. I don't think they are.
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7925
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:23 pm

I like this theory micky... it seems to fit nicely with most canon events.
micky wrote:However, I am going to postulate that they weren't living in Glantri at the time.

The Outer World Postcataclysmic map from the Hollow World set shows the route of the Returnist migrations, and shows where, in 2200 BC, the "Second Returnists" split off at the Serpent Peninsula and went to Glantri. This map is different from the one in Gaz5, which shows Ilsundal's group going up the Arm of the Immortals rather than up the Serpent Peninsula. This entry from Champions of Mystara (p. 35) helps us understand the different maps- "By 2300 BC [Ilsundal's group] had crossed the Strait of Izonda to the Immortal's Arm, then headed east along the Savage Coast. Another group... took another route through the Adakkian Sound, where they rejoined with Ilsundal's band and continued with them."

The 2500 BC migration, then (with the Belcadiz, Truedyl, Icevale, Schattenalfen, and- we now learn- the Sheyallia) is the "Second Returnist" migration that took a shortcut across the Serpent Peninsula.
Thanks, I'll add these in above.
micky wrote:At this point, the "Mass Returnist" group seems to have issues. The Sheyallia, for whatever reason decides to backtrack and goes back to the jungles of the Serpent Peninsula- maybe for the same reasons they didn't join Ilsundal's migration in 2800 BC (he smells). The rest continue east, with the Meditor and Verdier eventually building some boats and sailing on to Traladara/Thyatis.

Everyone else stops by Glantri, to check on the Blackmoor elves (now the burgeoning shadow elves). Seeing nothing, most of them move on- well, except the Truedyl, Icevale, and Schattenalfen (as we've seen). Within a century, the "Mass Returnist" group lands up in the Sylvan Realm, where they live happily ever after for more than a millennium.
So far, so good. This is really an interesting time in elven history and I'd love to see it fleshed out at some point. As you say there is definitely a lot of politics going on throughout the migration.
micky wrote:So what happened to the Belcadiz in my theory? Did they go to the Sylvan Realm, or underground? Neither.

See, I left out a part. In 2300 BC (according to Red Steel), "Elves arrive... and settle the eastern and central Savage Coast. They live alongside, but not among, the Oltecs."

Now, this was before the Second Returnists met the First Returnists, but, given all the splitting off (and whatever politics) that took place among the two groups... what if the Belcadiz decided to not go with Ilsundal and the rest, and instead sought out their cousins they had been told were back westwards a bit?

The Belcadiz then decide to settle in and among the Savage Coast. Over time, the nature of the soil there (see Dragon #171 and 172), or interbreeding with dark skinned Oltecs and Nithians, or both- combine to make the Savage Coastal elves darker skinned than their sylvan cousins. Their artistic nature also combines with the native Oltec and Nithian cultures to give rise to the Spanish-like Belcadiz culture we know and love.
I need to look over my SC histories a bit more, but this all sounds good.
micky wrote:At some point, around 450-500 BC, due to pressures from an influx of human settlers from Traladara and the northern plains, the Savage Coastal elves begin to withdraw from the region. Notably among them are the Belcadiz clan of elves, who decide to emigrate eastwards in search of their long lost kin. They travel to Glantri, arriving around 700 BC. The rest is history.
Again, I'm not so familiar with the SC, but this all sounds very plausible. I like it.
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
Hugin
Messenger of Odin
Posts: 4154
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Gender: male
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:13 pm

Wow, a lot to look over since I wrote this this morning but unable to post, perhaps making some of this wrong.
Zendrolion wrote:1) BC 1950: some or all Shadowelf ancestors (which I called underground elves) settle in Glantri, but don't meet any of the other elven settlers who came here with Ilsundal (first and second migration, see below) in BC 2200. Where can their settlements be put in order to have them not meeting their near kins? Broken Lands (not broken at the time)? (GAZ13, page 6)
Gaz 13 gives some clues; "they were separated by many hostile humanoids and human tribes", the earlier elves had access to the 'broken lands' to be able to find and detonate the Blackmoor device, and wherever the underground elves surfaced in Glantri must have had caves with access to the underground network of tunnels.

I'm looking into it but it may work to have the first elves inhabit the Red River valley region and extending into the hills and ravines of the 'broken lands'. The human tribes and humanoids would then be north, parallel to them, along the Isoile River valley and into the broken lands too. The underground elves then could have surfaced in mountainous regions north of there, perhaps in the Colossus Mountains or (even better IMO) in the Wendarian Ranges. This could perhaps be used to explain the origin (or addition) of elves in Wendar.
2) A small group of Shadowelf ancestors follow their leader Atziann (then a mortal elf) and found the first city of Aengmor. We don't know nor the time of this event, nor the location of the city; but we know that the Shadowelf were later ousted by Azcans, and that this Aengmor was still the same city that was conquered by Atzanteotl-following Shadowelf ancestors in BC 1420. Shadowelf history doesn't seem to have any account of the pre-BC 1420 history of the city site (i.e. they don't know it had been first founded by the elves, they know only that Atzanteotl ordered them to have the city reconquered - and if it was the elves' ancient city, it makes sense that he did so). (GAZ13, page 44)
Alright, trying to get the picture of what is going on, the city was originally built by Atziann and his clan following the GRoF (part of the northern outpost investigating the polar opening and "Radiance" energy source). Then Azcans trapped underground by the collapsing of the plateau in 1750 BC (the other survivors flee out into the desert) have been wandering around lost underground since then, until they discover a city inhabited by elves. They outnumber the elves considerably and having been denied entrance, take the city by force; only Atziann survives.

Atziann (now known as Atzanteotl) attains Immortality around 1500 BC. Then in around 1420 BC, the wandering underground elves (guided by Atzanteotl) find the city and drive the Azcans out, only to be driven out themselves by Atzanteotl's 'natural' disaster around 1290 BC. A century later the humanoids (also guided by Atzanteotl) find the city.

Atruatzin (from the HW) discovers the city and gains support of the people there (after all, they are of the same ethnic group), perhaps by giving them the hope of a nation on the 'surface'. Atzanteotl finds out that Atruatzin is in "his" city with those that took it from him. In his rage, he guides the Schattenalfen clan of underground elves there to enact his revenge, only to drive them out himself via 'natural' disaster some time later, and guide the humanoids there that he deems "more suitable".
3) Both HW set (DM Guide, page 13) and WotI (Codex of the Immortals, page 16) seem to confirm that Atziann's followers were indeed the elves that had settled in Glantri. But GAZ13 says they were ousted by the Azcans... How can this be possible?
I'm not clear on this (partially due to not having access to either of those sources at the moment). Does the scenario I describe above resolve this?
To fix things, I'm thinking if it'd be better to have first Aengmor as an underground city.

Timeline (dateless) of the events could be as follows:
So, Atziann was a Blackmoorian colonist? I guess that could work too. I just don't have all the material available to me at the office.
Somewhere in Champions of Mystara it says that this second group rejoins Ilsundal's migration around the Adakkian Sound region, IIRC.
I thought it was north of the Serpent Peninsula, but otherwise it still would make for single elven entry into the Known World region. Of course, they were not long in splintering again though.
These become the antarctic, savage elves met by Haldemar in VotPA, and the Blacklore of HW.
I didn't know about these southern savage elves, but I like it!
I think that this whole group [Gentle Elves] re-emerges from the earth in the Five Shires area (it's clearly said in HW), and then they disappear when the orcs conquer the Hins, around BC 1000.
That is what I've seen while going through the Mystaran timeline.
BTW, I think we should also explain within the timeline why there are so many different ethnicities of elves. I mean, the overly-tall Icevale, the small and brown Flamenco, the small and fair Wood Elves, the higher and fair (but with black hair) Shiye, and so on.

In another post, if you agree, I'll list all canon reference I've found detailing this sort of elven phisical characteristics, and the groupings I've made up to try to fix them. The aim is an attempt to define some elven ethnicities (like humans' ones).
Oh, I'm fully on board with this!

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7925
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:36 pm

Ok, here's a question for you all. I've been thinking about the Dark Elves and the Mordrigswerg, and trying to place them in the timeline. We know from Gaz 7 that the Modrigswerg are modified Rockborn dwarves - this puts them in the timeline somewhere after BC 1800. We also know that they had dealings with the Dark Elves (who were once their enemies), but Gaz 7 doesn't place this interaction firmly anywhere in the timeline.

The best way to do this IMO would be to place them with as little impact as possible, so I went through the above groups of elves and tried to find a group that would fit the bill. There are a couple that look promising:

1) Atziann's Aengmor (the first founding of the city): These are underground elves, and though canon doesn't specify that they are particularly evil, they could be. We don't have a specific date for these elves, but the city was probably founded sometime between BC 2000 and BC 1700 (by which time it had to be abandoned). This only gives us 50 to 100 years of time for interaction with these dwarves and the Mordrigswerg though, so I think this possibility is less likely.

2) Shattenalfen Aengmor (Atzanteotle leads his followers to take over the city): The Schattenalfen take the city back from the Azcans in BC 1420, and remain there until BC 1290. We also know that these elves are fairly evil (though Atzanteotle does punish them for not being evil enough). The time frame also seems right - though it still only gives us ~100 years to play with.

EDIT:
3) The third possibility, is of course that the elves who fled underground in BC 3000 become the Dark Elves directly. In this case they would have to maintain their evil status for at least 1200 years.

What do you think of these options? Could one of them be the Gaz 7 Dark Elves?
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
micky
Cloud Giant
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Virginia USA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:52 pm

Chimpman wrote:I like this theory micky... it seems to fit nicely with most canon events.
micky wrote:However, I am going to postulate that they weren't living in Glantri at the time.

The Outer World Postcataclysmic map from the Hollow World set shows the route of the Returnist migrations, and shows where, in 2200 BC, the "Second Returnists" split off at the Serpent Peninsula and went to Glantri. This map is different from the one in Gaz5, which shows Ilsundal's group going up the Arm of the Immortals rather than up the Serpent Peninsula. This entry from Champions of Mystara (p. 35) helps us understand the different maps- "By 2300 BC [Ilsundal's group] had crossed the Strait of Izonda to the Immortal's Arm, then headed east along the Savage Coast. Another group... took another route through the Adakkian Sound, where they rejoined with Ilsundal's band and continued with them."

The 2500 BC migration, then (with the Belcadiz, Truedyl, Icevale, Schattenalfen, and- we now learn- the Sheyallia) is the "Second Returnist" migration that took a shortcut across the Serpent Peninsula.
Thanks, I'll add these in above.
micky wrote:At this point, the "Mass Returnist" group seems to have issues. The Sheyallia, for whatever reason decides to backtrack and goes back to the jungles of the Serpent Peninsula- maybe for the same reasons they didn't join Ilsundal's migration in 2800 BC (he smells). The rest continue east, with the Meditor and Verdier eventually building some boats and sailing on to Traladara/Thyatis.

Everyone else stops by Glantri, to check on the Blackmoor elves (now the burgeoning shadow elves). Seeing nothing, most of them move on- well, except the Truedyl, Icevale, and Schattenalfen (as we've seen). Within a century, the "Mass Returnist" group lands up in the Sylvan Realm, where they live happily ever after for more than a millennium.
So far, so good. This is really an interesting time in elven history and I'd love to see it fleshed out at some point. As you say there is definitely a lot of politics going on throughout the migration.
micky wrote:So what happened to the Belcadiz in my theory? Did they go to the Sylvan Realm, or underground? Neither.

See, I left out a part. In 2300 BC (according to Red Steel), "Elves arrive... and settle the eastern and central Savage Coast. They live alongside, but not among, the Oltecs."

Now, this was before the Second Returnists met the First Returnists, but, given all the splitting off (and whatever politics) that took place among the two groups... what if the Belcadiz decided to not go with Ilsundal and the rest, and instead sought out their cousins they had been told were back westwards a bit?

The Belcadiz then decide to settle in and among the Savage Coast. Over time, the nature of the soil there (see Dragon #171 and 172), or interbreeding with dark skinned Oltecs and Nithians, or both- combine to make the Savage Coastal elves darker skinned than their sylvan cousins. Their artistic nature also combines with the native Oltec and Nithian cultures to give rise to the Spanish-like Belcadiz culture we know and love.
I need to look over my SC histories a bit more, but this all sounds good.
micky wrote:At some point, around 450-500 BC, due to pressures from an influx of human settlers from Traladara and the northern plains, the Savage Coastal elves begin to withdraw from the region. Notably among them are the Belcadiz clan of elves, who decide to emigrate eastwards in search of their long lost kin. They travel to Glantri, arriving around 700 BC. The rest is history.
Again, I'm not so familiar with the SC, but this all sounds very plausible. I like it.
just to reiterate... it isn't mine... I found it at Pandius. But I like it too :D

In fact... I'm editing it into my history of the Belcadiz come edit time... that is.. unless some one has a better theory of course hahah.
He does not have a mandate. He does not have large congressional majorities. If a small minority in the Tea Party could stop President Obama, then we the majority can stop a petty tyrant named Trump

User avatar
CmdrCorsiken
Stone Giant
Posts: 671
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 6:17 pm
Gender: male
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by CmdrCorsiken » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:52 pm

Zendrolion wrote:In another post, if you agree, I'll list all canon reference I've found detailing this sort of elven physical characteristics, and the groupings I've made up to try to fix them. The aim is an attempt to define some elven ethnicities (like humans' ones).
Looking forward to this myself....
My hat's off to the 'freaks.' Whenever I see their post counts, I feel like a go-cart at the Indy 500.

User avatar
Cthulhudrew
Green Dragon
Posts: 4360
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 2:13 pm
Gender: male
Location: Long Beach, CA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Cthulhudrew » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:28 pm

micky wrote:just to reiterate... it isn't mine... I found it at Pandius. But I like it too :D
That one's mine that I wrote some time ago, trying to make sense of the elven migration issues (that all got a bit muddled over the various TSR product lines). I still have to go back one of these days and try and iron out all the Shadowelf/Schattenalfen/Elf histories, which I haven't gotten around to. That one's really going to be tricky.
Moderator of the Mystara and Greyhawk forums. My moderator voice is gray-green.
Image

User avatar
micky
Cloud Giant
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Virginia USA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:26 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:
micky wrote:just to reiterate... it isn't mine... I found it at Pandius. But I like it too :D
That one's mine that I wrote some time ago, trying to make sense of the elven migration issues (that all got a bit muddled over the various TSR product lines). I still have to go back one of these days and try and iron out all the Shadowelf/Schattenalfen/Elf histories, which I haven't gotten around to. That one's really going to be tricky.
yeah.. I saw it was yours and definitely mentioned ya when I posted it hahah. Nice work... like I said.. I'm going to make it a part of Belcadiz history.. though I suspect you may not like that I am moving up the date of their arrival in Glantri from what you may have intended. :lol: ;) With what I am doing with Glantri... I feel as if I have to balance Canon.. and the wealth of fan-based history put out there. As I posted earlier... one sentence in Gaz 3 (contained in a paragraph that made no sense and was contradicted on the next page) causes severe problems with a logical history of Glantri. If I stick to the ONE mention that said something about the Belcadiz arriving in AC 700... I have to scrap all that extensive work (and interlated histories) that several people have done.. and still leaves a particularly vexing problem of explaining how the Belcadiz came to dominate the Erewan elves if both arrived at the same time. (ie... the lands that became the Principality of Erewan being carved FROM lands that belonged to the Belcadiz... that is the whole basis of the conflict between the two groups of elves in the present day)

any thoughts on that while I have your ear?
He does not have a mandate. He does not have large congressional majorities. If a small minority in the Tea Party could stop President Obama, then we the majority can stop a petty tyrant named Trump

User avatar
Cthulhudrew
Green Dragon
Posts: 4360
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 2:13 pm
Gender: male
Location: Long Beach, CA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Cthulhudrew » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:05 am

micky wrote:and still leaves a particularly vexing problem of explaining how the Belcadiz came to dominate the Erewan elves if both arrived at the same time. (ie... the lands that became the Principality of Erewan being carved FROM lands that belonged to the Belcadiz... that is the whole basis of the conflict between the two groups of elves in the present day)
Good question. Offhand (and going from memory, since I don't have my materials in front of me), my best guess would be that the Belcadizan leader was the first to be enfoeffed, and thus came to dominate what were then considered "elvish" lands. It wasn't until a later point that the Erewan elves were able to have one of their own elevated to princely rank, and split their lands from the Belcadiz.

Again, I'm not sure how well/if that would fit with what we have canonically as dates. I do recall- from a Glantri timeline I did waaaaay back in the day- that the Erewan/Belcadiz split came about in 884 AC. So, perhaps a Belcadizan leader was a prominent figure during the Forty Years' War, and when the Light of Rad decision came about, that leader (or his chosen successor) was thus elevated to princely rank over the entire elvish lands.

Naturally, that resulted in a lot of strife, and a few decades later the Council of Princes decided to split the elvish realm in two, and a second Elvish Principality came about. (Doubtless much to the chagrin of the Belcadiz, who now had their power base cut in half, not to mention just generally losing some power as there was a new prince).

Alfheim could have been putting pressure on the Glantrians on behalf of their Erewan cousins, too (perhaps). Still a relatively new nation, the Principalities may have felt the need to cave a bit in order to secure broader national recognition.
Moderator of the Mystara and Greyhawk forums. My moderator voice is gray-green.
Image

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:27 am

Aarghh! Have been away for two days and there's so much to read and to reply, and so few time!!! :( :? :x
I'll do it in different posts.

Well, let's begin! ;)
micky wrote:GAZ3 also states that the Belcadiz came from a far land beyond the Seas of Thangioth. Isn't there a brown-skinned elf enclave on the Shadow Coast? If so.. possibly it came from a splinter group and was the one that rejoined Ilsundal.. perhaps they settled the Shadow Coast rather than going to the Sylvian Realm.
I've some difficulties following you here, micky. The Shadow Coast is located along the south-western coasts of the Isle of Dawn. As far as canon goes, there are no elves there - even if this don't means that we can't put some clans there.

I see the Belcadiz group as members of the second migration which left Grunland in BC 2500; many stopped in northern Davania (Jungle Coast - DotE says there are elven clans in the Hinterlands), others joined Ilsundal as per CoM near the Adakkian Sound area, and proceeded with him (Immortal's Arm, Savage Coast, then Glantri). When the catastrophe stroke in BC 1700, the Belcadiz alone left thanks to the Rainbow Bridge. In agreement with Marco Dalmonte on the Italian MMB, we had them land in the easternmost island of the Thanegioth archipelago, which they named Alvar.
micky wrote:As far as the Belcadiz... as was posted before.. they have such different mannerisms from the typical elf it must be assumed they diverged from the forest elves long long ago and developed their own culture. Prehaps a completely different and separate history that doesn't follow anything that canon has put out.
In my history of elvenkind, I had five different races of elves born out of the Eldars' transformation (which occurred around 2 millions years ago, in my opinion):

* Bronze Elves (short, dark-skinned and -haired)
* Platinum (or High) Elves (taller than humans, silver- or white-haired)
* Silver Elves (tall as humans, fair-skinned, fair- or dark-haired with red and black examples)
* Wood Elves (the "classic" elves of RC: short, fair, often nature-loving)
* proto-Aquarendi (ancestors of the later Aquarendi and Water Elves, and sea-dwellers at that time)

Bronze elves' descendants are the Belcadiz, the Red Arrows, the Chossum, and so on.
Platinum elves' descendants are the Icevale elves, and the extinct elves of the Red Woods near Blackmoor (see DA modules).
Silver elves are the Shiyes, the Vyalias, Eusdrian and Wendarian elves.
Wood elves are the rest. :lol:

Obviously the two migration groups (BC 2800 and BC 2500) were mixed: the first included Platinum, Water, and Wood elves; the second Bronze and Silver elves. And this explains the following issue:
micky wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:IMO, a branch of the Returnists spawns the Icevale Elves, while Second Separatists spawn the future Gentle Folk, and the Belcadiz. Ancestors of the Shadowelves are not connected to any of these groups.
find it hard to comprehend the Gentle Folk and the Belcadiz being spawn of the same mother hahaha. At least in such a short 'in elven standards' timeframe. Wasn't it mentioned in the other thread that we would be talking a timeframe of only 500 years... less than the lifespan of an elf?
In fact you're right: IMO the migration was made up by two different elven ethnicities, as I've explained above. ;)
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:49 am

Let's come to micky's idea about the Belcadiz's background:
micky wrote:Looking at the Hollow World set, we learn that some survivors of that second migration settled in Glantri c. 2200 BC. These were not the shadow elf clans, who had already gone underground (and would not return to the surface until 1950 BC- see Gaz13, pg. 6) and would never encounter these other elves. Among these "second Returnists" were the Truedyl clan, and the ancestors of the Icevale elves and Schattenalfen. (Hollow World, pp. 43, 45, and 83, respectively.)
This doesn't means that they don't traveled together with the main migration up to Glantri: in fact, GAZ5's map featuring Ilsundal's migration clearly shows that Ilsundal did pass through Glantri as well - but didn't stop there.

His migration included elves from his migration (Icevale), and from the second migration which had joined the first one in Davania (Belcadiz, Truedyl). These three groups settled in Glantri.
micky wrote:The 2500 BC migration, then (with the Belcadiz, Truedyl, Icevale, Schattenalfen, and- we now learn- the Sheyallia) is the "Second Returnist" migration that took a shortcut across the Serpent Peninsula.
Why are you putting the Sheyallia among the second migrationists? :?:
CoM only says that they headed south and settled in the Serpent Peninsula - so they could be well members of Ilsundal's group.
micky wrote:Everyone else stops by Glantri, to check on the Blackmoor elves (now the burgeoning shadow elves). Seeing nothing, most of them move on- well, except the Truedyl, Icevale, and Schattenalfen (as we've seen).
I don't agree with the Schattenalfen being part of those clans. Their history, while messed up by HW, is quite clear: they're part of the underground elves turned to the worship of Atzanteotl. They should not have had any contact with other migrationists.
micky wrote:See, I left out a part. In 2300 BC (according to Red Steel), "Elves arrive... and settle the eastern and central Savage Coast. They live alongside, but not among, the Oltecs."

Now, this was before the Second Returnists met the First Returnists, but, given all the splitting off (and whatever politics) that took place among the two groups... what if the Belcadiz decided to not go with Ilsundal and the rest, and instead sought out their cousins they had been told were back westwards a bit?

The Belcadiz then decide to settle in and among the Savage Coast. Over time, the nature of the soil there (see Dragon #171 and 172), or interbreeding with dark skinned Oltecs and Nithians, or both- combine to make the Savage Coastal elves darker skinned than their sylvan cousins. Their artistic nature also combines with the native Oltec and Nithian cultures to give rise to the Spanish-like Belcadiz culture we know and love.
I'm not in favor with this hypothesis, mostly becouse GAZ3 says that those elves coming around AC 700 to Glantri find a trailback to Glantri... So they had been there, and they're returning there. Moreover, the historians believe them to be the missing elven tribes... etc., so...

BTW, I handled the issue of the Spanish humans of Glantri this way: after the BC 1700 catastrophe the Belcadiz went to Alvar (see my post above). Later, a fraction of the Kerendans migrating from Davania settled among them, and they became the Ispans. Centuries after, they all migrated to Glantri via Rainbow Bridge in AC 695. The Erewans arrived some years later (AC 710 or so).
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:57 am

Then, coming to Chimpman:
Chimpman wrote:I like it. This follows very closely my own thoughts. Let me add some additional points.
1) The majority of Azcans and Oltecs were removed from the OW and placed in the HW in BC 3000.
2) However, a small population of Azcans remained and took refuge under the Great Plateau in BC 2800

So we know there are Azcans living on the surface (or beneath it) in BC 2800... and these are not the same as the HW Azcans (and hence not the same people that Atrautzin leads back to the surface). However since they live underground, I think it's not unlikely that they would have contact (and conflict) with the underground elves in the area. So it is possible that Atziann and his clan (now all destroyed) built the first Aengmor, and that they were ousted from the city by Azcans living under the Great Plateau.

3) We also know there were a series of catastrophes in the BC 1750 - BC 1700 period.
4) By the time Atrautzin finds the location it is abandoned, and he calls it the "City of the Dead"

So I think it is safe to assume that the city was destroyed in the BC 1750 to BC 1700 range, and then later "found" by Atrautzin in BC 1468. However the elves that Atzanteotle (now immortal) leads back to the city in BC 1420 are not the same clan of elves who built it originally. Atzanteotle's original clan is dead at this point.
This is actually very interesting because it means that no one culture has even held Aengmor more than once. They take the city and are then pushed out by someone else.
I definitely agree with your take. 8-)
Chimpman wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:
Chimpman wrote:BC 2200
Returnists -> Glantrian Elves
Second Separatists -> Glantrian Elves
IMO, a branch of the Returnists spawns the Icevale Elves, while Second Separatists spawn the future Gentle Folk, and the Belcadiz. Ancestors of the Shadowelves are not connected to any of these groups.
Agree wrt the Shadow Elves. I might flip Icevale Elves and Gentle Folk, but either way can make sense to me. I think one thing to keep in mind (and micky brings up this point in his post) is that when I say "Second Separatists" that is an umbrella term for all elves leaving Vulcania at that time. We can have disparate clans traveling together (that may have very different physical and cultural attributes).
Yes, I agree. See my reply to micky above.
Chimpman wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:BTW, I think we should also explain within the timeline why there are so many different ethnicities of elves. I mean, the overly-tall Icevale, the small and brown Flamenco, the small and fair Wood Elves, the higher and fair (but with black hair) Shiye, and so on.

In another post, if you agree, I'll list all canon reference I've found detailing this sort of elven phisical characteristics, and the groupings I've made up to try to fix them. The aim is an attempt to define some elven ethnicities (like humans' ones).
I'd love to see what you have, so post away.
The I'll post my infos ASAP in another thread, seems better.
Chimpman wrote:One thing to keep in mind though is that these elves could have diverged from one another on Vulcania (starting all the way from BC 6000). Their differences don't have to be explained as evolution after the GRoF. One interesting thing that Havard brought up in another post is the physical similarities between Shadow Elves and the Verdier (water elves). So even though their cultures are vastly different in AC 1000, it could be that they share a common ancestor stock.
The problem with this is that even 7000 years are few to generate relevant changes on a race which has a longevity of 800 years at least (they'd be eight-nine generations only... ).
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:10 pm

Chimpman wrote:Zen, I think this is the quote that is really throwing a monkey wrench into the whole timeline, and I don't even think that the quote is consistent with itself. It's the last line that is confusing, "By this time Atzanteotle had achieved Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy." The more I read that the more I'm thinking something is wrong.

We know Atzanteotle ascended in BC 1500. We also know that Atrautzin's Azcans took over the city in BC 1468, but that the city was abandoned when they got there. So there is no way possible that Azcans drove Shattenalfen out of the city after Atzanteotle ascends. It's the other way around. How do we deal with this statement?
Period. The elves the Azcans ousted were not (well, still not) the Schattenalfen, becouse it happened before BC 1700 (we need Atziann there in Glantri) and the Schattenalfen as such were born when Atzanteotl lured some of the underground elves to his worshipping (around BC 1500).
So, the Azcans who threw out the elves from the first Aengmor were outer- or hollow-world Azcans (it doesn't matter) and still not followers of Atzanteotl. But... I see the problem now: the shadowelves' history says that the elves who conquered the underground city in BC 1420 adopted the humans' religion. And became followers of Atzanteotl... But how can this be possible if the humans inhabiting the city in BC 1420 were Atruatzin's followers? :?: :? :?:
I'd ignore the fact that the elves adopted the humans' religion (i.e. Atzanteotl's cult) and instead I'd focus on the fact that they adopted the humans' customs. Seems more likely to me - and should also explain why the Schattenalfen have a Mesoamerican culture.
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:18 pm

Chimpman wrote:EDIT:
3) The third possibility, is of course that the elves who fled underground in BC 3000 become the Dark Elves directly. In this case they would have to maintain their evil status for at least 1200 years.

What do you think of these options? Could one of them be the Gaz 7 Dark Elves?
I like the third possibility much more that the other two. An insular, post-holocaust sect of elves who have given up their goodness to survive: wonderful Dark Elves they'd be! 8-) :twisted:
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
Planefarer
Stone Giant
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:01 am
Gender: prefer not to say

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Planefarer » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:23 pm

Chimpman wrote: BC 500 ???
Sylvan Realm -> Shyre Lawr (possibly linked to the BC 800 event, or additional split from Mealiden's group)?
Indeed we know that it is linked to Mealiden's group...
Wrath of the Immortals, Book I, Codex of the Immortals, p. 19 wrote::
Once he achieved Immortality, Eiryndul decided to create his own elven nation, one more to his liking. When the elf-king Mealiden Starwatcher led the expeditions away from the Sylvan Realm, about BC 800, Eiryndul lured one large clan, the Shiye, away from Mealiden and persuaded them to settle in the deep, dark forests of central Alphatia. He gradually influenced them to become more secretive, more mischievous, more dangerous, and more independent than he perceives the Alfheim elves to be.
So we know that the Shiye were among the clans that left the Sylvan Realm the same time as Mealiden's migration, only Eiryndul brought them to Alphatia. The reference in DOTE says that the Shiye-Lawr were recognized "fifteen hundred years ago", which suggests the Shiye had already been in Alphatia since BC 800, but were only recognized as an Alphatian kingdom around BC 500. It makes sense to me, since we actually know very little about how old the oldest Alphatian kingdoms really are.

What I wonder about is the origin of the Trueflower clan on the Great Escarpment of the Isle of Dawn (described in M5: Talons of Night). From the reference in WOTI, it doesn't sound to me like the Alphatian Shiye were a splinter group from their ranks, but I have no idea when the Trueflower clan came to the Isle of Dawn or from where.
"When a wizard is tired of looking for broken glass in his dinner, he is tired of life."

Post Reply

Return to “Mystara”