[GazH] Elven Migrations

Weird red metals, dominions, immortals, hollow planets, invisible moons, and a lot of glorified magic zeppelins. It's all here.
The Book-House: Find Mystara products, Find Known World products.

Moderators: Seer of Yhog, Gawain_VIII, Havard, Cthulhudrew

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:37 pm

Last but not least, comments on Hugin:
Hugin wrote:I'm looking into it but it may work to have the first elves inhabit the Red River valley region and extending into the hills and ravines of the 'broken lands'. The human tribes and humanoids would then be north, parallel to them, along the Isoile River valley and into the broken lands too. The underground elves then could have surfaced in mountainous regions north of there, perhaps in the Colossus Mountains or (even better IMO) in the Wendarian Ranges. This could perhaps be used to explain the origin (or addition) of elves in Wendar.
It's funny that, strictly following canon, this icy mountain valleys were more densely settled than the lush Darokin plains! :? :lol: :roll:

Out of the joke, we should remember that Glantri was locked into a local ice age well until BC 800. Some valleys could be free (I think the Red River-Isoile valley was free of ice, for example), but there shouldn't have been much room for pastures and meadows.
It'd be well if we had the area between the Broken Lands and Glantri covered by a glacier - it'd further hamper contacts between the underground elves of the Broken Lands and other elven clans settled in Glantri. I wonder what humanoids were there to separate the BC 1950 elves from their cousins: giants or trolls, nevetheless (goblinoids and orcs arrived only little before BC 1700). Human tribes could well have been proto-Ethengar, or Neathar.
Hugin wrote:Alright, trying to get the picture of what is going on, the city was originally built by Atziann and his clan following the GRoF (part of the northern outpost investigating the polar opening and "Radiance" energy source). Then Azcans trapped underground by the collapsing of the plateau in 1750 BC (the other survivors flee out into the desert) have been wandering around lost underground since then, until they discover a city inhabited by elves. They outnumber the elves considerably and having been denied entrance, take the city by force; only Atziann survives.
This can't do, becouse in WotI (Atzanteotl's background) it says that Atziann was alongside Glantri's elves (those of BC 1950, obviously) when some of them triggered the device and caused the explosion. The death of his clan was due to the radiations' aftereffect and was a slowly process taking place during the clan's wanderings underground - until he was the only survivor left.
Hugin wrote:So, Atziann was a Blackmoorian colonist? I guess that could work too. I just don't have all the material available to me at the office.
It's not needed to have them so old, he could be well born after BC 3000. In fact, WotI (even it's clearly a typo) says that 3,700 years ago (so, around BC 2700), Atziann was an elven clan-lord in the Glantri area.
Hugin wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:These become the antarctic, savage elves met by Haldemar in VotPA, and the Blacklore of HW.
I didn't know about these southern savage elves, but I like it!
Haldemar meets them when the Princess crashes in the antimagic zone; they're utterly savage and seems to have lost any spellcasting skill (IIRC). Haldemar's crew must fight them, until they're chased away by a huge monster of the antarctic wastes (the Vulcanian Sloth).
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:41 pm

Planefarer wrote:So we know that the Shiye were among the clans that left the Sylvan Realm the same time as Mealiden's migration, only Eiryndul brought them to Alphatia. The reference in DOTE says that the Shiye-Lawr were recognized "fifteen hundred years ago", which suggests the Shiye had already been in Alphatia since BC 800, but were only recognized as an Alphatian kingdom around BC 500. It makes sense to me, since we actually know very little about how old the oldest Alphatian kingdoms really are.
I agree with BC 800 as the date for the arrival of the Shyie in Alphatia.
Planefarer wrote:What I wonder about is the origin of the Trueflower clan on the Great Escarpment of the Isle of Dawn (described in M5: Talons of Night). From the reference in WOTI, it doesn't sound to me like the Alphatian Shiye were a splinter group from their ranks, but I have no idea when the Trueflower clan came to the Isle of Dawn or from where.
They - alongside other elven clans one could wish to put in Redstone's, Septentriona's or Meridiona's forests, could be splinters of Eiryndul's migration. IIRC, the Trueflowers have a Tree of Life, so they're followers of Ilsundal. Perhaps Eiryndul tried to get rid of Ilsundal's followers before getting the bulk of "his" elves to Alphatia?
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
Planefarer
Stone Giant
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:01 am
Gender: prefer not to say

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Planefarer » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:55 pm

Zendrolion wrote: They - alongside other elven clans one could wish to put in Redstone's, Septentriona's or Meridiona's forests, could be splinters of Eiryndul's migration. IIRC, the Trueflowers have a Tree of Life, so they're followers of Ilsundal. Perhaps Eiryndul tried to get rid of Ilsundal's followers before getting the bulk of "his" elves to Alphatia?
That might be so. It does beg the question of how the elves migrated. IIRC, Mealiden traveled by a rainbow path or something like that, which seems unlike conventional travel across land to me. Does the same apply to Eiryndul's followers, or did they travel onward from Alfheim across land? They might have, but then how did they cross the Sea of Dawn and the Alphatian Sea? Somehow it seems more likely to me that they used a rainbow path, if that was an available option.
"When a wizard is tired of looking for broken glass in his dinner, he is tired of life."

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:35 pm

Planefarer wrote:That might be so. It does beg the question of how the elves migrated. IIRC, Mealiden traveled by a rainbow path or something like that, which seems unlike conventional travel across land to me. Does the same apply to Eiryndul's followers, or did they travel onward from Alfheim across land? They might have, but then how did they cross the Sea of Dawn and the Alphatian Sea? Somehow it seems more likely to me that they used a rainbow path, if that was an available option.
Rainbow Bridge seems the only reasonably available option to me. Seeing how tricky is that way of travel from CM7, perhaps they took a wrong way why they were on the Bridge with other migrationists, or were lured on the wrong way by Eiryndul, or were told to take a different route altogether by their patron (if the latter is the case, probably Eiryndul managed also to whisk away some clans from Mealiden's migration - like the Trueflower -, just to weaken or embarass him).
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:47 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
Chimpman wrote:EDIT:
3) The third possibility, is of course that the elves who fled underground in BC 3000 become the Dark Elves directly. In this case they would have to maintain their evil status for at least 1200 years.

What do you think of these options? Could one of them be the Gaz 7 Dark Elves?
I like the third possibility much more that the other two. An insular, post-holocaust sect of elves who have given up their goodness to survive: wonderful Dark Elves they'd be! 8-) :twisted:
This is my favorite option as well.
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
Hugin
Messenger of Odin
Posts: 4153
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Gender: male
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:43 pm

Zendrolion wrote:Last but not least, comments on Hugin:
Woohoo! I'm not least! :lol: :ugeek:
But you know I always appreciate your comments Zen!
It's funny that, strictly following canon, this icy mountain valleys were more densely settled than the lush Darokin plains! :? :lol: :roll:
Indeed, however doesn't the Glantri gaz give the suggestion that people are drawn to the area because of the Radiance? It comes across as a recurring theme to me.
Out of the joke, we should remember that Glantri was locked into a local ice age well until BC 800. Some valleys could be free (I think the Red River-Isoile valley was free of ice, for example), but there shouldn't have been much room for pastures and meadows.
Chimpman and I discussed Glantri's Ice Age and receding glaciers over in the GazH Timeline thread and we were agreed on the following scenario: "I wonder if that means the glacier began to recede in Glantri in 2500 BC (delayed by the Ice Age caused by the GRoF, Glantri's overall altitude, and the more sheltered nature of Glantri's valleys), but doesn't reach the state we have today until 800 BC. In this scenario, the glaciers wouldn't have receded evenly from start to finish though. The start would have been slow as the Ice Age gave way to normal climatic conditions, sped up through the lowest and warmest valleys, then slowed down considerably into the higher altitude and colder valleys."

One other comment regarding Glantri's Ice Age is that I believe the author intended this to be the result of a 'nuclear winter' caused by the Blackmoor catastrope of 3000 BC happening, and creating, the Broken Lands. But if we are discussing this matter within the context of Blackmoor existing at the present north pole, the specifically Glantrian Ice Age has no cause. This is why Chimpman and I view this as a minor yet Global Ice Age caused by the GRoF; Glantri (and the Known World region in general) is affected to a greater degree simply because of the pre-existing polar ice cap glaciers.
It'd be well if we had the area between the Broken Lands and Glantri covered by a glacier - it'd further hamper contacts between the underground elves of the Broken Lands and other elven clans settled in Glantri. I wonder what humanoids were there to separate the BC 1950 elves from their cousins: giants or trolls, nevetheless (goblinoids and orcs arrived only little before BC 1700). Human tribes could well have been proto-Ethengar, or Neathar.
I can't imagine glaciers still existing over the broken lands at such a late period in time. However, what I'm a little confused about is the 'underground elves' part, since "some" resurfaced in 1950 BC (although it is interesting that we could have separate factions of the 'underground elves' at this time). Because of this, whatever keeps these two groups of elves on surface from contacting each other has to be 'in between' them. Interesting point on the humanoids by the way; perhaps this means a humanoid type creature that was not derived from the Beastmen?
This can't do, becouse in WotI (Atzanteotl's background) it says that Atziann was alongside Glantri's elves (those of BC 1950, obviously) when some of them triggered the device and caused the explosion. The death of his clan was due to the radiations' aftereffect and was a slowly process taking place during the clan's wanderings underground - until he was the only survivor left.
Alright, we have some problems here (well, I know I do ;) ). As I understand it, it was the "earlier elven settlers in Glantri" that triggered the LRoF (Lesser Rain of Fire :D ), it was the 'underground elves' which had returned to the surface in 1950 BC that then "resumed their subterranean life" after the LRoF, Atziann built the underground city (?) and he was the only survivor of his clan, Belcadiz elves are of the 'southern elf' branch while the Erewan elves arrive in Glantri from Alfheim around 400 AC (gaz3).

From that here are my assumptions;
- c. 3000 BC: The GRoF forces the elves of the northern polar research outpost underground; these are the ancestors of the 'underground elves' (some become the Dark Elves (?)).
- c. 2200 BC: Elves migrating from the southern continent arrive in the Glantri/broken lands region (small case because they are not yet broken by the LRoF).
- c. 1950 BC: "Some" of the underground elves re-settle on the surface (perhaps one of the clans that have since developed among the underground elves) led by Atziann (?); they do not make contact with other surface elves.
- c. 1700 BC: One of the 'southern elf' clans discover and trigger a Blackmoorian device (a relic of the the old polar outpost); The specific clan that triggered the LRoF likely did not survive its effects, while others also take refuge underground (such as the Gentle Elves).
- c. 730-750 AC: Elves return to Glantri (Erewan clan at least). I cannot find any reference to help pin-point the arrival of the Belcadiz.

The questions arising from all this are:
Which group did Atziann belong to, the underground elves or the Glantri migrants?
What exactly became of the Glantri elves after the LRoF? We know some resurfaced in the Five Shires region as the Gentle Elves.
From which group do the Shadow Elves descend, the underground elves of the GRoF or LRoF? Both events result in elves going underground.
Where did the Belcadiz elves go after the LRoF? Gaz3 states that "elves reappear from the south" "three centuries" after Braejr is built (c. 750 AC), "returning to claim their lost realm". "News spreads fast, and soon clans of fair elves... settle in Glantri". (Note: I think their culture already existed before the LRoF.)

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:48 pm

I'm re-reading through this thread, and it seems like there are at least 3 points of contention that we will need to look into in more depth.

1) When did the Sheyallia leave Vulcania (first or second migration?) Not sure how much impact this one has, since by the time they reach the Savage Coast both groups are together (and if I understand correctly, it's from this unified group that the Sheyallia diverge from).

2) Where did the Schattenalfen originate from? It looks like there are two theories floating around (correct me if I'm wrong).
  • The Schattenalfen were part of the Second Separatists and came to Glantri in BC 2200. They were thus not part of the original Shadow Elf population that fled underground in BC 3000, but do flee underground after the BC 1700 catastrophe.
  • The Schattenalfen are an offshoot of the original Shadow Elf ancestors. They flee underground after the GRoF in BC 3000, reclaim the surface of Glantri in BC 1950, and then flee underground again in BC 1700 (which would mark the point that they become the Shattenalfen).
3) What are the origins of the Belcadiz clan? Again it seems the main question is when exactly they first colonized Glantri. Did they colonize it in BC 2200, abandon it after the BC 1700 event, and then recolonize it later in AC 700? Or did they break away from Ilsundal's migration and colonize areas of the Savage Coast before moving on to Glantri at the AC 700 date?

Edit: Looks like Hugin beat me to the punch line this time ;)
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:24 pm

Hugin wrote:
This can't do, becouse in WotI (Atzanteotl's background) it says that Atziann was alongside Glantri's elves (those of BC 1950, obviously) when some of them triggered the device and caused the explosion. The death of his clan was due to the radiations' aftereffect and was a slowly process taking place during the clan's wanderings underground - until he was the only survivor left.
Alright, we have some problems here (well, I know I do ;) ). As I understand it, it was the "earlier elven settlers in Glantri" that triggered the LRoF (Lesser Rain of Fire :D ), it was the 'underground elves' which had returned to the surface in 1950 BC that then "resumed their subterranean life" after the LRoF, Atziann built the underground city (?) and he was the only survivor of his clan, Belcadiz elves are of the 'southern elf' branch while the Erewan elves arrive in Glantri from Alfheim around 400 AC (gaz3).
Yeah, this is definitely a very confusing point in elven history. Here is my current understanding of events:
BC 3000: Elves in Glantri region are forced underground by GRoF. For the sake of clarity, I'm going to call these elves Shadow Elf Ancestors.
BC 2200: Elves leave Ilsundal's Migration (clans from both the Returnists, and Separate Separatists) to colonize areas in Glantri/Broken Lands.
BC 1950: "Some" of the underground elves return to the surface in Glantri - they do not have contact with the Vulcanian elves.
Gaz 13 wrote:Around 1700 BC the other, earlier elven settlers in Glantri found a strange artifact from the Blackmoor civilisation, in the Broken Lands. They tinkered with it, and it exploded cataclysmically. Great, impenetrable clouds of smoke and ash rose into the sky and did not disperse for years. A dreadful rotting plague affected many creatures in the area, with the ancestors of the shadow elves partly affected. When they first felt the explosion and saw the clouds, these elves fled for the caves below out of instinct and racial memory. This instant flight possibly saved them from extinction.
Gaz13 - pg ? DM's Guide
This quote might imply that the "Some" elves who returned to the surface were the ancestors of the Shadow Elves. If we take this as true, then those elves who remained underground (since only some came up, then some must remain behind), could be the ancestors of the Schattenalfen. These would then be Atziann's clan, and would have built the first Aengmor. Although we have been listing the construction of that first city in BC 1950, there is no canon source for this, and it could have been much earlier.

The other part of this quote "earlier elven settlers in Glantri found a strange artifact from the Blackmoor civilisation" could have two interpretations. One being that the earlier being referred to is actually the earliest (which would be the Shadow Elf Ancestors). The second interpretation is the one you are using (which IMO makes more sense with regard to the actual quote), that being that the earlier elves referred to are those from Ilsundal's migration. This could make sense if we assume that the artifact which caused the LRoF (love it by the way ;) ) was on or very close to the surface. Otherwise the underground elves would have found it much earlier.

BC 1700: After the LRoF the Glantrian elves again head underground out of racial memory (these must be the Shadow Elf Ancestors). At this point the first Aengmor is also probably destroyed (this event also destroys Atziann's clan - which would have actually been underground at the time, living in Aengmor).

BC 1420: A group of Shadow Elf Ancestors (led by Atzanteotle) finds the now rebuilt Aengmor/Mictlan and recovers it from the Azcans living there. These elves become the Schattenalfen.

BC 1104: Underground elves (more Shadow Elf Ancestors) find the Refuge of the Stone, create the City of the Stars, and become the Shadow Elves.
Hugin wrote:The questions arising from all this are:
Which group did Atziann belong to, the underground elves or the Glantri migrants?
What exactly became of the Glantri elves after the LRoF? We know some resurfaced in the Five Shires region as the Gentle Elves.
From which group do the Shadow Elves descend, the underground elves of the GRoF or LRoF? Both events result in elves going underground.
Great questions! And definitely ones we need to answer. Whether the LRoF is triggered by underground elves or Ilsundal's migration elves in Glantri, the outcome is the same. The event destroys Atziann's clan, and drive other clans underground. In this case the Shadow Elves would be descended from elves fleeing the LRoF (but these same elves also fled from the GRoF millenia before).
Hugin wrote:Where did the Belcadiz elves go after the LRoF? Gaz3 states that "elves reappear from the south" "three centuries" after Braejr is built (c. 750 AC), "returning to claim their lost realm". "News spreads fast, and soon clans of fair elves... settle in Glantri". (Note: I think their culture already existed before the LRoF.)
Not sure about this one. Need to think more.
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
Havard
Dragon Turtle
Posts: 20067
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 7:32 pm
Gender: male
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Havard » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:41 pm

Zendrolion wrote:* Bronze Elves (short, dark-skinned and -haired)
* Platinum (or High) Elves (taller than humans, silver- or white-haired)
* Silver Elves (tall as humans, fair-skinned, fair- or dark-haired with red and black examples)
* Wood Elves (the "classic" elves of RC: short, fair, often nature-loving)
* proto-Aquarendi (ancestors of the later Aquarendi and Water Elves, and sea-dwellers at that time)

Bronze elves' descendants are the Belcadiz, the Red Arrows, the Chossum, and so on.
Platinum elves' descendants are the Icevale elves, and the extinct elves of the Red Woods near Blackmoor (see DA modules).
Silver elves are the Shiyes, the Vyalias, Eusdrian and Wendarian elves.
Wood elves are the rest. :lol:
This is an interesting writeup.
I would personally divide the Silver Elves into two groups. One which I call Wood-elves which are the Vyalia and Verdier (I also put the Wendar in here, though I dont know how that fits with canon). They are fair skinned, but have brown or red hair and green eyes.

The second group would be a more nordic/germanic type. Perhaos they can be thrown in with the Platinum elves or the ones you call woodelves. These would be many of the Alfheim Clans, the Callarii, Erewan and the generic Known World elves (who are mostly of Alfheim origin).

I would also consider the Shiye elves a separate group, having been changed when they chose to follow Eiryndul...

Havard

Aliases: Håvard Frosta, Havard Blackmoor, Blackmoorian, Dragon Turtle etc
Where to find me on the Web
The Comeback Inn - My Blackmoor Forum
The Blackmoor Blog
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
My Articles at the Vaults of Pandius
Moderator of the Mystara, Blackmoor and Thunder Rift forums.
My moderator voice is
GREEN.

User avatar
Hugin
Messenger of Odin
Posts: 4153
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Gender: male
Location: Fergus, Ontario

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:07 pm

Chimpman wrote:BC 3000: Elves in Glantri region are forced underground by GRoF. For the sake of clarity, I'm going to call these elves Shadow Elf Ancestors.
BC 2200: Elves leave Ilsundal's Migration (clans from both the Returnists, and Separate Separatists) to colonize areas in Glantri/Broken Lands.
BC 1950: "Some" of the underground elves return to the surface in Glantri - they do not have contact with the Vulcanian elves.
BC 1700: After the LRoF the Glantrian elves again head underground out of racial memory (these must be the Shadow Elf Ancestors). At this point the first Aengmor is also probably destroyed (this event also destroys Atziann's clan - which would have actually been underground at the time, living in Aengmor).
BC 1420: A group of Shadow Elf Ancestors (led by Atzanteotle) finds the now rebuilt Aengmor/Mictlan and recovers it from the Azcans living there. These elves become the Schattenalfen.
BC 1104: Underground elves (more Shadow Elf Ancestors) find the Refuge of the Stone, create the City of the Stars, and become the Shadow Elves.
We're getting there, bit by bit. :)

One problem with the above, however, is that Gaz 10 clearly has Aengmor being built after the LRoF (glad you like it! ;) ) by elves forced underground (although it doesn't state by which group; 'southern' elves or 'underground' elves) "after centuries of fortuitous wandering" around 1400 BC. Gaz 13 clearly has Aengmor being found by elves forced underground and that it is inhabited with Azcan humans. :?: So, was it found or founded, by these elves :?:

I think I know; Gaz 13 says that the elves "found a temple, built in a strange and unfamiliar style and the center of a community of barbaric humans, the Azcan". Then Gaz 13 says, and agrees with Gaz 10, "around [t]his temple they built a great city". This suggests that the Azcans were there first and had built a temple, then the elves came, "adopted the central religion", and built Aengmor around that temple.

Further info; Atziann made it to the HW around 1650 BC (so he was underground for 'only' 50 years) and attained Immortality by about 1500 BC. Atruatzin found Aengmor and was with allies sometime after 1500 BC.

The only way for all this to be true as far as I can see, is;
Back in 1950 BC, a group of underground elves resurfaced in Glantri, only to be driven back underground in the 1700 BC LRoF. Centuries of wandering once again in the bowels of the earth "built upon [their] hate of humankind (who were blamed for the cataclysm)". "Their philosophy was chaotic and violent".

Following the collapse of the original plateau of the Azcan in 1750 BC, the survivors trapped underground were forced to migrate through the tunnels and caverns in the earth. At some point they decide their only hope is build a temple to an Immortal (perhaps an old Azcan/Oltec Immortal like Nyx that represented darkness, night, shadow, secrets) in an attempt to appease and gain favour.

Atziann's clan of elves was originally among those coming from the south (first or second migrations; doesn't matter since they both come to Glantri together). They are weakened by the effects of the LRoF and struggle, dying in the years following, due to radiation and not knowing how to survive entirely underground. During their wandering they discovered a human population underground that was centered around a temple. Unfortunately, they were far too few and weak to take it, so they moved on in hopes of finding more elven refugees. Atziann was the only survivor of his clan by the time he entered the Hollow World around 1650 BC.

The Azcans have several centuries developing their cult in the hopes of being freed from this underground prison when their priests begin to receive visions of Atzanteotl (sometime around 1500 BC). This Immortal's philosophy is not so different then their old one and it is readily accepted. The temple begins to be revamped. Shortly after though, a stranger of similar looks (and in fact the same ethnicity) appears out of the dark tunnels and gives them hope of a new world. This is Atruatzin, and when Atzanteotl discovers this he vows revenge. Giving messages to another group, the underground elves that have been driven into the depths twice now, he guides them to Atruatzin and the Azcans and drive them out in c. 1400 BC.

The elves adopt the Atzanteotl religion, and build a great city around Atzanteotl's temple, naming it Aengmor (completed in 1352 BC). But these elves prove less than desirable to Atzanteotl and he drives them away himself by sending great flows of lava in 1290 BC. Atzanteotl's replacements would be the humanoids about a century later.

What canon do we have that doesn't fit with the above?
This quote might imply that the "Some" elves who returned to the surface were the ancestors of the Shadow Elves.
From what I can gather, and based on the above, there are two possibilities; the first is that first the "some" that had to come back underground and the "others" which stayed below were reunited and that both the Shadow Elves and Schattenalfen splintered off the group after leaving Aengmor (but I do need to check further to make sure there is nothing that directly contradicts that).
If we take this as true, then those elves who remained underground (since only some came up, then some must remain behind), could be the ancestors of the Schattenalfen. These would then be Atziann's clan, and would have built the first Aengmor. Although we have been listing the construction of that first city in BC 1950, there is no canon source for this, and it could have been much earlier.
And the second possibility; since we have no indication that these two groups did reunite, the "some" could be the ancestors of the Shadow elves while the "others" were the ancestors the Schattenalfen. The only thing for sure is that according to Gaz 13, the elves that became the Shadow elves were once in Aengmor.
The second interpretation is the one you are using (which IMO makes more sense with regard to the actual quote), that being that the earlier elves referred to are those from Ilsundal's migration. This could make sense if we assume that the artifact which caused the LRoF (love it by the way ;) ) was on or very close to the surface. Otherwise the underground elves would have found it much earlier.
Agreed. If we say the artifact was the power supply used by the polar outpost before the GRoF, it would have likely been quite close to the surface, perhaps even less than 100 feet.
Great questions! And definitely ones we need to answer. Whether the LRoF is triggered by underground elves or Ilsundal's migration elves in Glantri, the outcome is the same. The event destroys Atziann's clan, and drive other clans underground. In this case the Shadow Elves would be descended from elves fleeing the LRoF (but these same elves also fled from the GRoF millenia before).
Well, in the above I have Atziann as part of a clan from Ilsundal's migration so that his clan discovered the artifact and couldn't live underground (since they were not used to it and were severely weakened by the explosion).
Not sure about this one. Need to think more.
Yep.

User avatar
micky
Cloud Giant
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Virginia USA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:10 pm

jeepers ... so much to read hahah
He does not have a mandate. He does not have large congressional majorities. If a small minority in the Tea Party could stop President Obama, then we the majority can stop a petty tyrant named Trump

User avatar
micky
Cloud Giant
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Virginia USA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:17 pm

Zendrolion wrote:Aarghh! Have been away for two days and there's so much to read and to reply, and so few time!!! :( :? :x
I'll do it in different posts.
:lol: two days?.. .try 12 hours at work Image


so much to read .. but I did notice a later post of yours to me. The notion of that history of the Belcadiz was not mine.. but a repost of the work of one whose intellect is more vast than my own hahahha. I'll let Andrew answer any questions on that. I liked it.. and seemed to be extrapolated from canon.. but he's the expert on that.
He does not have a mandate. He does not have large congressional majorities. If a small minority in the Tea Party could stop President Obama, then we the majority can stop a petty tyrant named Trump

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:30 pm

Hugin wrote:One problem with the above, however, is that Gaz 10 clearly has Aengmor being built after the LRoF (glad you like it! ;) ) by elves forced underground (although it doesn't state by which group; 'southern' elves or 'underground' elves) "after centuries of fortuitous wandering" around 1400 BC. Gaz 13 clearly has Aengmor being found by elves forced underground and that it is inhabited with Azcan humans. :?: So, was it found or founded, by these elves :?:
What you have written above (I'm not going to quote all of it) flows along the lines of how Cthuludrew has interpreted the elven migrations (and how I originally interpreted them as well).

However, Zen has posited a different interpretation, based mainly on the following quote, also from Gaz 13:
Gaz 13 wrote:Atzanteotl was a hero among a splintered, tiny fragment of the ancestors of the shadow elves isolated from the bulk of their folk after the Rain of Fire. This splinter group first built Aengmor in the long-lost past. Then, this small group of elves was ousted by the Azcans, who took over the city. By this time, Atzanteotl had achieved Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy. Gaz13 - pg ? DM's Guide
Sorry, no page number, but I took this from the online doc at the Vaults - this is in Atzanteotle's write up near the end.

This would suggest that Atziann was not a member of Ilsundal's migration (neither first nor second group from Vulcania) and in fact was born a Shadow Elf (or more accurately, Shadow Elf Ancestor). It also suggests that the elves (some group) were there before the Azcans. Since we know that Atzanteotle's elves (notice I'm making a distinction between Atziann the mortal and Atzanteotle the immortal) drive out the Azcans, they must be the second group of elves to occupy the city.

I'm not fully convinced on either theory, but I am swinging toward Zen's viewpoint.
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
Cthulhudrew
Green Dragon
Posts: 4358
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 2:13 pm
Gender: male
Location: Long Beach, CA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Cthulhudrew » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:39 pm

Zendrolion wrote:Let's come to micky's idea about the Belcadiz's background:
Again, as micky initially noted, and as I confirmed a bit ago, this is actually from a piece I wrote for the MMB several years ago. As such, I hope micky doesn't mind if I respond:
Zendrolion wrote:This doesn't means that they don't traveled together with the main migration up to Glantri: in fact, GAZ5's map featuring Ilsundal's migration clearly shows that Ilsundal did pass through Glantri as well - but didn't stop there.
In point of fact, the Gaz5 map doesn't show that at all. It shows the migration passing along the Arm of the Immortals, through the Savage Coast, into the Great Waste, and skirting through (and apparently, over) the Adri Varma Plateau along the Wendarian Range outside of Glantri. There it travels overland through the Borean Wastes to eventually end up in the Sylvan Realm.

Now, the timeline mentions a group of migrants settling in Glantri in 2,200 BC, and from this, and the scale of the map on pg 6 of Gaz5 we can infer that the Ilsundal migration stopped through Glantri, but the map itself doesn't directly give us this impression one way or another. (Similarly, the text of Gaz5 states that Mealiden's migration from the Sylvan Realm took the Rainbow Path to the region now known as Thyatis, but the map on pg. 6 shows his migration ending up in the Canolbarth Forest/Darokin region).
zendrolion wrote:Why are you putting the Sheyallia among the second migrationists? :?:
CoM only says that they headed south and settled in the Serpent Peninsula - so they could be well members of Ilsundal's group.
True enough. Again, a case of inferring from the maps something that the text may not necessarily indicate. It seemed most logical to me, based on the info in CoM and the HW migration maps that the Sheyallia were part of that second migrationist group that traveled up the Serpent Peninsula and then decided to head back down, based on the assumption that they chose the route they knew and were already familiar with (ie, the forests/jungles of the Serpent Peninsula) over the route they were unfamiliar with (the lands beyond the Great Waste).

At this point, I'm not really certain it matters which group they were with, though, since they have so little impact on anything else. It might become important down the road for the GazH project though, especially if they are planning on detailing things further with the Sheyallia.
Zendrolion wrote:I don't agree with the Schattenalfen being part of those clans. Their history, while messed up by HW, is quite clear: they're part of the underground elves turned to the worship of Atzanteotl. They should not have had any contact with other migrationists.
I definitely agree with the HW history being messed up, but on the other hand, this is what the HW DM's Guide has to say about the Schattenalfen (p. 83)

"More than a thousand years later, ca. BC 1,700, another disaster took place on the surface; Elves livign in the land now called Glantri found and accidentally detonated an old Blackmoor device... it did drive all these elvish clans underground, and some of those survivors discovered the cavern of the City of the Stars."

These survivors were then adopted by the Shadow Elves and became the Schattenalfen several centuries later, after being corrupted by Atziann.

As they were living in and around Glantri/Broken Lands at the time of the 1,700 BC disaster, it seems pretty logical and likely to me that they were in contact with and had ties to the other elvish clans in the same region at the same period of time- ie, the Icevale Elves, the Gentle Folk, and whomever else might have been around then.
Zendrolion wrote:I'm not in favor with this hypothesis, mostly becouse GAZ3 says that those elves coming around AC 700 to Glantri find a trailback to Glantri... So they had been there, and they're returning there. Moreover, the historians believe them to be the missing elven tribes... etc., so...
Alas, I can't seem to find my Gaz3 right now, but as I recall, the history in those first couple of pages is very vaguely written and is hardly definitive (particularly in light of other works that came out detailing different elvish clans and histories subsequent to its publishing), so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Moderator of the Mystara and Greyhawk forums. My moderator voice is gray-green.
Image

User avatar
Cthulhudrew
Green Dragon
Posts: 4358
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 2:13 pm
Gender: male
Location: Long Beach, CA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Cthulhudrew » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:46 pm

Chimpman wrote:2) Where did the Schattenalfen originate from? It looks like there are two theories floating around (correct me if I'm wrong).
  • The Schattenalfen were part of the Second Separatists and came to Glantri in BC 2200. They were thus not part of the original Shadow Elf population that fled underground in BC 3000, but do flee underground after the BC 1700 catastrophe.
  • The Schattenalfen are an offshoot of the original Shadow Elf ancestors. They flee underground after the GRoF in BC 3000, reclaim the surface of Glantri in BC 1950, and then flee underground again in BC 1700 (which would mark the point that they become the Shattenalfen).
The only reference we have to the Schattenalfen is from the Hollow World books, notably the HW DM's Guide, which (as noted in my previous post), clearly differentiates them from the Shadowelves as a later group that is adopted by them*.

They could possibly be the BC 1950 Shadowelves, but there is no indication of such in their HW entry, which makes a point of noting that they were "adopted" by the Shadowelves when they fled the surface. I'm not sure the SE would have needed to adopt their own people, even those who were missing for 250 years (a relatively short span for elves).

*Note that the current HW Schattenalfen are a mixed group of original "Schattenalfen" and Shadowelves who were later corrupted by Atziann to his worship.
Moderator of the Mystara and Greyhawk forums. My moderator voice is gray-green.
Image

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:38 pm

Thanks Andrew! It's pretty clear that I'm going to have to pick up my HW books tonight when I go home. In the mean time there are a few points that I can comment on.
Cthulhudrew wrote:"More than a thousand years later, ca. BC 1,700, another disaster took place on the surface; Elves livign in the land now called Glantri found and accidentally detonated an old Blackmoor device... it did drive all these elvish clans underground, and some of those survivors discovered the cavern of the City of the Stars."

These survivors were then adopted by the Shadow Elves and became the Schattenalfen several centuries later, after being corrupted by Atziann.
IIRC the Refuge of the Stone was found in BC 1104, (which is ~600 years after the LRoF), while Atzanteotle's elves take Mictlan/Aengmor in BC 1420.
That means that the Shadow Elf Ancestors would have adopted the "Schattenalfen" after BC 1700, and lived together for around 300 years before the Schattenalfen break away and conquer Aengmor. Atzanteotle sinks Aengmor in BC 1290, causing the Schattenalfen to flee further underground.

The Shadow Elves don't actually take on that name until after they find the Refuge (in BC 1104).

If we go by the HW information then (and I think that this is what Cthuludrew is saying), the Schattenalfen are actually a mixture of clans displaced by the BC 1700 event. Those clans would include any that were in Glantri at the time - Shadow Elf Ancestors, and Vulcanian immigrants from both migrations. So far this all seems like it can add up fairly well.

The one area of contention though is where did Atzian come from... and I think that as far as GazH is concerned, based on Gaz 13, we have to assume that he was not a Vulcanian immigrant, but a king of some Shadow Elf Ancestor clan.
Cthulhudrew wrote:As they were living in and around Glantri/Broken Lands at the time of the 1,700 BC disaster, it seems pretty logical and likely to me that they were in contact with and had ties to the other elvish clans in the same region at the same period of time- ie, the Icevale Elves, the Gentle Folk, and whomever else might have been around then.
It seems logical to me as well, however the histories make an explicit point of saying they had no such contact. There could be reasons for this - perhaps they purposefully stayed away from the new comers, trying to assess their intent and whether or not they could be trusted. Also if the BC 1950 elves who returned from underground, still retained any culture of the Dark Elves they may not only have been distrustful of the newcomers, but actively seeking ways to remove them (hint, hint, LRoF). There's no basis in canon for that... it's just a thought).

After the actual BC 1700 event though, it might be safe to assume that elves fleeing the disaster (despite any differences between them) did band together and sought out some of the ancient caverns that protected the Shadow Elf Ancestors in the distant past.
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:06 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:Let's come to micky's idea about the Belcadiz's background:
Again, as micky initially noted, and as I confirmed a bit ago, this is actually from a piece I wrote for the MMB several years ago.
I should have known. Sorry! :)
Cthulhudrew wrote:In point of fact, the Gaz5 map doesn't show that at all. It shows the migration passing along the Arm of the Immortals, through the Savage Coast, into the Great Waste, and skirting through (and apparently, over) the Adri Varma Plateau along the Wendarian Range outside of Glantri. There it travels overland through the Borean Wastes to eventually end up in the Sylvan Realm.
The scale of that map is such that it doesn't allow us, IMHO, to make such precise statements. If one collates the map with the timeline, it's quite clear to me that the arrow passing around the Glantri area indicates the elven migrationists to the Highlands, as the one going from the Sylvan Realm to the Known World indicates the arrival of Mealiden's migration in Thyatis.

Nevertheless, I agree there's enough room for different interpretations. ;)
Cthulhudrew wrote:
zendrolion wrote:Why are you putting the Sheyallia among the second migrationists? :?:
CoM only says that they headed south and settled in the Serpent Peninsula - so they could be well members of Ilsundal's group.
True enough. Again, a case of inferring from the maps something that the text may not necessarily indicate. It seemed most logical to me, based on the info in CoM and the HW migration maps that the Sheyallia were part of that second migrationist group that traveled up the Serpent Peninsula and then decided to head back down, based on the assumption that they chose the route they knew and were already familiar with (ie, the forests/jungles of the Serpent Peninsula) over the route they were unfamiliar with (the lands beyond the Great Waste).
CoM says that the two migrations joined around the Adakkian Sound region, so both should go together following Ilsundal's route, and there's no way that the second migration passed through the Serpent Peninsula. That's why the Sheyallia come from the north: they're part of Ilsundal's migration, which, by the way, is the only one elven migration from the Adakkian Sound on.

At least, this is what I put together reading CoM.
Cthulhudrew wrote:These survivors were then adopted by the Shadow Elves and became the Schattenalfen several centuries later, after being corrupted by Atziann.

As they were living in and around Glantri/Broken Lands at the time of the 1,700 BC disaster, it seems pretty logical and likely to me that they were in contact with and had ties to the other elvish clans in the same region at the same period of time- ie, the Icevale Elves, the Gentle Folk, and whomever else might have been around then.
At the cost of repeating myself indefinitely, please note that there are serious inconsistencies between the Schattenalfen's history as told in HW set, and the Shadowelves' history as told in GAZ13.

In particular, HW says that the City of Stars if founded by the elves who fled underground around BC 2700 under the guidance of Rafiel. But that's in contrast with GAZ13, where the elves only know about Rafiel when they come to the Refuge of Stone (BC 1104), and found the City of Stars later...

HW says that survivors of those elves living in Glantri took shelter among the Shadowelves of the City of Stars after the Glantrian Catastrophe. But there was no City of Star to be taken shelter within in BC 1700 according to GAZ13, nor a single leadership of the Shadowelves, nor an underground realm of them, as they were still wandering around.

Even the history of the foundation of Aengmor is rather different. All in all, I find it difficult to concile this material with other, apparently more reliable and coherent, canon sources. And I think it's not careful to take for good a single part of the HW history of the Schattenalfen while the rest is to be thrown away when confronted with GAZ13.

About the point you mentioned above, GAZ13 is quite clear to say that the elves who resurfaced in BC 1950 didn't meet any of their kins: so, there should have been no contact at all between those elves and the Icevale, Truedyl, and Belcadiz clans.

This is also needed becouse the whole theme of GAZ13 revolves around the Shadowelves' loneliness at being the last surviving elves on Mystara - until they discover the Alfheim elves again. If survivors who had met the clans of Ilsundal's migration took shelter among them, they'd have known about Ilsundal, the great migrations, and a number of things which would have lended them some hope to find again their lost cousins and inhabit again the surface lands. I see it difficult to put together these two points of view about those elves.

The only way I see to fix this issue if one wants to keep the Glantrian origin of the Schattenalfen would be to have them as survivors of the BC 1950 elves who again fled underground in BC 1700. But note that those elves - GAZ13 is clear at least about this - never meet other migrationists.
Cthulhudrew wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:I'm not in favor with this hypothesis, mostly becouse GAZ3 says that those elves coming around AC 700 to Glantri find a trailback to Glantri... So they had been there, and they're returning there. Moreover, the historians believe them to be the missing elven tribes... etc., so...
Alas, I can't seem to find my Gaz3 right now, but as I recall, the history in those first couple of pages is very vaguely written and is hardly definitive (particularly in light of other works that came out detailing different elvish clans and histories subsequent to its publishing), so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
You're certainly right, but nothing else was written about the Belcadiz elves, and those few lines are all those we're left working with, if we'd like to follow canon.
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
Cthulhudrew
Green Dragon
Posts: 4358
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 2:13 pm
Gender: male
Location: Long Beach, CA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Cthulhudrew » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:06 am

Chimpman wrote:The one area of contention though is where did Atzian come from... and I think that as far as GazH is concerned, based on Gaz 13, we have to assume that he was not a Vulcanian immigrant, but a king of some Shadow Elf Ancestor clan.
Again, contentious histories from various products muddle this issue. I don't recall offhand what Gaz13 says, but the HW DM's Guide has this to say:

(p.98): "...Atziann, was an elf clan-lord living in Glantri some 3,700 years ago... some of his fellow elves found and accidentally triggered a dangerous Blackmoor device... (t)he resulting cataclysm drove the surviving Glantrian elves underground. Atziann and his clan travelled the labyrinth of caves under Glantri for dozens of years, years during which all his clan-members perished..."

My reading of it is that Atziann was an Outer World elf, and hence my assumption that he was one of the members of one of the two Returnist migrations (plus, I have some backstory with he and Ilsundal that I think really fits into mythological themes). That said, he could possibly be the leader of that 1950 SE migration that you've mentioned (I really have to dig out my copy of Gaz13 now).

It's that whole Schattenalfen/Shadowelf bit from the HW books that really seems to have thrown a wrench into things. Which is very odd, considering that they were in product development at/around the same time. You'd have thought they'd be more smoothly conjoined, rather than disparate.

(Plus, I really never got all that into the Schattenalfen myself. I've been toying with ways to actually make them more interesting and less "Aztec elves".)
Moderator of the Mystara and Greyhawk forums. My moderator voice is gray-green.
Image

User avatar
Cthulhudrew
Green Dragon
Posts: 4358
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 2:13 pm
Gender: male
Location: Long Beach, CA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Cthulhudrew » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:15 am

Zendrolion wrote:CoM says that the two migrations joined around the Adakkian Sound region, so both should go together following Ilsundal's route, and there's no way that the second migration passed through the Serpent Peninsula. That's why the Sheyallia come from the north: they're part of Ilsundal's migration, which, by the way, is the only one elven migration from the Adakkian Sound on.
Now I have to go and double check, but I would swear there was a map showing the second migration heading up the Serpent Peninsula, which is where I got the notion of the Sheyallia being from that second migration. It doesn't fit the text, though, as you mention- yet another conflict of information. Argh. :(
Zendrolion wrote:At the cost of repeating myself indefinitely, please note that there are serious inconsistencies between the Schattenalfen's history as told in HW set, and the Shadowelves' history as told in GAZ13.
Very much so, sadly. The only problem is, given that the Schattenalfen's first- and only substantive- appearance is in the HW set, it's kind of hard to reconcile their history with that of the Shadowelves.
Even the history of the foundation of Aengmor is rather different. All in all, I find it difficult to concile this material with other, apparently more reliable and coherent, canon sources. And I think it's not careful to take for good a single part of the HW history of the Schattenalfen while the rest is to be thrown away when confronted with GAZ13.
Which of course begs the question above- how can we possibly reconcile their history with that of the Shadowelves when the two sources so clearly conflict with one another?

(IIRC, there are conflicts between Gaz13 and other elvish histories as well- notably Gaz5- though I may be mistaken in that).

Perhaps we should split the Shadowelf and Schattenalfen discussion into another thread, and try to list all the sources and find areas of conflict and possible reconciliation separately from other Elven Migrations (since they all pretty much involve below surface cultures, and I'm not sure that exists within the parameters of the GazH concept? Correct me if I'm wrong.)
About the point you mentioned above, GAZ13 is quite clear to say that the elves who resurfaced in BC 1950 didn't meet any of their kins: so, there should have been no contact at all between those elves and the Icevale, Truedyl, and Belcadiz clans.
Noted, though I am going under the assumption that the Schattenalfen ancestors are not necessarily the same Shadowelf "resurfacers".
Moderator of the Mystara and Greyhawk forums. My moderator voice is gray-green.
Image

User avatar
Planefarer
Stone Giant
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:01 am
Gender: prefer not to say

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Planefarer » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:31 am

Hugin wrote:One problem with the above, however, is that Gaz 10 clearly has Aengmor being built after the LRoF (glad you like it! ;) ) by elves forced underground (although it doesn't state by which group; 'southern' elves or 'underground' elves) "after centuries of fortuitous wandering" around 1400 BC. Gaz 13 clearly has Aengmor being found by elves forced underground and that it is inhabited with Azcan humans. :?: So, was it found or founded, by these elves :?:
One reference...
HW boxed set, DM's sourcebook, p. 13 wrote:BC 1,420: Outer-world Shadow Elves called the Schattenalfen, following the guidance of the Immortal Atzanteotl, complete the construction of their underground city of Aengmor
"When a wizard is tired of looking for broken glass in his dinner, he is tired of life."

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:32 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:Perhaps we should split the Shadowelf and Schattenalfen discussion into another thread, and try to list all the sources and find areas of conflict and possible reconciliation separately from other Elven Migrations (since they all pretty much involve below surface cultures, and I'm not sure that exists within the parameters of the GazH concept? Correct me if I'm wrong.)
We can split of the discussion - it might be good just to keep things straight. With regard to GazH however, this is very important, as several cultures in the Mystara 2300 BC world (which I am most interested in ;) ) have ties to these underground cultures. Those include, but are not limited to: Dark Elves (who may in some way be realted to Shadow Elves or their ancestors), Azcan refugees under the Great Plateau, and possibly to some extent humanoids.
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
micky
Cloud Giant
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Virginia USA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:50 am

Zendrolion wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:Let's come to micky's idea about the Belcadiz's background:

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Zendrolion wrote:I'm not in favor with this hypothesis, mostly becouse GAZ3 says that those elves coming around AC 700 to Glantri find a trailback to Glantri... So they had been there, and they're returning there. Moreover, the historians believe them to be the missing elven tribes... etc., so...
Alas, I can't seem to find my Gaz3 right now, but as I recall, the history in those first couple of pages is very vaguely written and is hardly definitive (particularly in light of other works that came out detailing different elvish clans and histories subsequent to its publishing), so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
You're certainly right, but nothing else was written about the Belcadiz elves, and those few lines are all those we're left working with, if we'd like to follow canon.
just dropping in while working on the next episode of D&DTV's award winning Biography to add my two cents on this.....

canon is canon... however where it is ambiguous, misleading, or.. simply isn't logical... there is no hurt in modifying it.

I may have posted this before.. if I have.. forgive me.

the bolded part of Andrew's post is dead on... the crux of the matter is ONE sentence in the middle of vague, and contradicted paragraph (one page later in Gaz3). Did the Belcadiz arrive around AC 700, which is being held as canon.. .yet in it's own way is indirectly contradicted by Gaz 3 itself...

I know Andrew touched on my question of the relationship between the Belcadiz and the Erewan (haven't got to responding to that just yet. However... doesn't the violent nature of their relationship make more sense if the Belcadiz arrived first and had the land the Erewan settled in... what is more logical to have the Belcadiz arrive much earlier... or having to 'reach' for a logical explanation of how two groups arrive at the same time.. yet one is forced to be subservient to the other until the Elven Principality is split. Every ethnic minority that arrived in AC 700 got land of it's own to settle... why didn't the Erewan? What is more important... a logical history... or blindly sticking, not even to canon (we aren't talking about having the Belcadiz arrive from Mars or something hahah).. but ONE sentence vaguely mentioning an arrival...in a paragraph poorly written.. and inaccurately written.

Gaz 3 also makes mention of the hatred between the elves and the Flaem....hmmm... 'the Flaem hold the elves responsible for the war that reduced the Flaemish power in Glantri'....

ahem... 'AC 784 Thyatin settler kills Flaem lord... war declared'.

Glantri is named for the Thyatin that formed the Republic... not an elf.

where did that hatred come from... that supersedes that for the Thyatins..


easy... the 300 years of history between the Flaem's arrival and the arrival of the Settlers that has no mention in ANY canon source other than a few mentions of problems with the Ethengar. I might be in the minority here... and we'll agree to disagree.. but when talking triffling details.. and in the scheme of canon.. this is one. Plausbility and connecting ALL the dots is more important when presenting a unified history. Whether the Belcadiz arrived in BC 200 or AC 700.. as far as canon.. it makes no difference... but trying to explain events and relationships that are canon.. what makes it more plausible.. and in the end.. simply a more interesting campaign enviroment.

friendly rant over... canon is like anything... it is a guide.. it might become a problem when severe alterations happen... but not sticking blindly to one sentence written WELL before any real attempt to explain where these races came from, why they came, how they came was done. THe early histories given in the Gaz have in some cases been superseded by later canon which actually put thought into making everything FIT together.
Last edited by micky on Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
He does not have a mandate. He does not have large congressional majorities. If a small minority in the Tea Party could stop President Obama, then we the majority can stop a petty tyrant named Trump

User avatar
Chimpman
Hadozee
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 6:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: USA, California

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:59 am

Thanks micky! With regard to the GazH project itself, I think the right thing to do is to gather as many pieces of canon together as we can and then make an informed decision taking the all of those bits of information into consideration. Canon is going to contradict itself. That's not in question. But going forward for this project, what I'd like to try and avoid is making a decision on one piece of information (even if that happens to be someone's favorite quote - believe me, I have them too).

I don't think we've gotten to that point yet.

Regardless, I think both these topics (Belcadiz and Shadow Elf origins) deserve to be analyzed further, so I'm going to break those out into two separate threads.
THRESHOLD Magazine - The Mystara Fanzine
Visit the Exiles Campaign Setting (a Mystara / Spelljammer crossover)
Visit Mystara 2300 BC

Moderator of The Tabard Inn and Blackmoor. My moderator voice is purple.

User avatar
micky
Cloud Giant
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Virginia USA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:57 am

thanks Chimpy!

just another side-dish on tonights entree of the contradictions of the 'canon' of the early Gaz histories.....

from Gaz3 AC 730 - Settlers come to Glantri (first and only mention of settlers arriving... with no other mention in the timeline nor who those settlers exactly were)

from Gaz5 AC 700 - Erewan elves leave for Glantri...

hahah... guess they did the alpha-male thing and refused to stop and ask for directions :lol:

that leads into another yummy entree of ....why did the Erewan faction come to Glantri? What caused the split within the Erendyl clan.
He does not have a mandate. He does not have large congressional majorities. If a small minority in the Tea Party could stop President Obama, then we the majority can stop a petty tyrant named Trump

User avatar
Cthulhudrew
Green Dragon
Posts: 4358
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 2:13 pm
Gender: male
Location: Long Beach, CA

Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Cthulhudrew » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:38 am

Say, Chimpman- would it be beneficial at all to create a list of sources of information on elvish migrations, with page numbers? I don't know if that would help you or not as we try to reconcile what is probably the most convoluted of all the Mystaran histories for some reason. :lol:
Moderator of the Mystara and Greyhawk forums. My moderator voice is gray-green.
Image

Post Reply

Return to “Mystara”