[GazH] Elven Migrations

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by JohnBiles » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:13 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:Say, Chimpman- would it be beneficial at all to create a list of sources of information on elvish migrations, with page numbers? I don't know if that would help you or not as we try to reconcile what is probably the most convoluted of all the Mystaran histories for some reason. :lol:
I think it would help.

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:41 am

micky wrote:from Gaz3 AC 730 - Settlers come to Glantri (first and only mention of settlers arriving... with no other mention in the timeline nor who those settlers exactly were)

from Gaz5 AC 700 - Erewan elves leave for Glantri...

hahah... guess they did the alpha-male thing and refused to stop and ask for directions :lol:
:lol:

As the GazH project begins to flesh out more details, these dates the have very rounded numbers are considered to be very rounded approximations, while those that are less rounded will be considered less rounded. But rounded they are! ;)

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:46 am

It's late and I have to go to bed, but I found Zen's quote about Atzanteotl building Aengmor - Gaz 13 pg. 44.

However, this can still fit in my original timeline that is adjusted a bit by the second one. I'll have to give it tomorrow though. Hopefully everyone can help us out in straightening this crooked nail out!

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:33 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:Say, Chimpman- would it be beneficial at all to create a list of sources of information on elvish migrations, with page numbers? I don't know if that would help you or not as we try to reconcile what is probably the most convoluted of all the Mystaran histories for some reason. :lol:
I think it would help immensely. As we come across things that can specifically apply to the other two threads, we can move them over.

I'll try to get it started:
BC 3000
  • They (Shadow Elves) lived peacefully, developing their culture and magic, until their lives were suddenly shattered by the Great Rain of Fire (3000 BC). The planetary axis shifted, causing incredible climatic upheavals. Blackmoor was forever covered in ice. The elves in Glantri fled to what is today the Broken Lands. They were then driven underground, for the first time in their history, to escape the fiery holocaust that ravaged the surface. Glantri, only a little later, underwent its own temporary ice age.
    Gaz13 - pg 5 DM's Guide
  • Atzanteotl was a hero among a splintered, tiny fragment of the ancestors of the shadow elves isolated from the bulk of their folk after the Rain of Fire. This splinter group first built Aengmor in the long-lost past. Then, this small group of elves was ousted by the Azcans, who took over the city. By this time, Atzanteotl had achieved Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy.
    Gaz13 - pg 44 DM's Guide
    [Note: No specific time is given for this event.]
  • Planetshift. Blackmoor blows up. Elven home continent freezes over, becomes southern icecap. Survivors of the elven colony in Blackmoor flee into the newly-formed Broken Lands.
    Gaz5 - pg 7
BC 2800
  • New elven nations on the southern continent land of Vulcania divides on issue of magic verses technology. Returnists (magic-favoring) under Ilsundal leave for northern continent on long march.
    Gaz13 - pg 8 DM's Guide
  • New elven nation on the southern continent land of Vulcania divides on magic versus technology. Returnists under Ilsundal leave for northern continent on long march.
    Gaz5 - pg 7
  • A separatist branch of the southern elves, led by Ilsundal the Wise, decides to abandon Blackmoor technology and return to the nature-oriented magic of their ancestors. They begin a long migration northward in the hope of finding the lost colony of elves which had settled near Blackmoor. The Outer World Oltecs have become extinct. A hardy branch of the Azcans survive in the deep caves of the huge plateau in what would later become Atruaghin Clan lands.
    HWOW - pg 11
  • Around 2800 BC, two groups of elves left their ancestral lands (now under the southern polar ice cap). Some, led by Ilsundal, crossed western Davania.
    CoM, Explorer's Manual, page 35
BC 2500
  • As the elves used their great magics to build their culture to its peak (around 3500 years ago), they also began exploring the rest of the world. The elves and Blackmoor found each other at the height of their cultures.
    Gaz5 - pg 5-6
  • The followers of Ilsundal were the forebears of virtually all the elves in the known world. Nothing has been heard from the southern continent elves since the long march of the Returnist elves, although the Belcadiz elves of Glantri claim to be descendants of a similar group who left the southern continent some 300 years after Ilsundal.
    Gaz5 - pg 6
  • In Vulcania, the elvish civilization is losing its battle with the elements; it has forgotten most of its magic and its Blackmoor technology is failing. A second separatist group of southern elves begins the long march northward.
    HWOW - pg 11
BC 2400
  • A great volcanic explosion occurs in Vulcania, destroying the remnants of the southern elvish civilization.
BC 2300
  • Elves arrive in the region and settle the eastern and central Savage Coast. They live alongside, but not among, Oltecs.
    SB - pg 18 book 1 approximate dates
  • By 2300 BC they had crossed the Strait of Izonda to the Immortals' Arm, then headed east along the Savage Coast. Another group, whose leader's name is lost, took another route through the Adakkian Sound, where they rejoined Ilsundal's band and continued with them.
    The Sheyallia clan turned south, onto the Serpent Peninsula, and settled in the forest. The Meditor and Verdier clans, disliking the increasingly rainy and hot climate, sailed east in search of better lands. They eventually settled in the Traldar lands (present-day Karameikos). Ilsundal and the other clans moved across the Great Waste to Glantri, then northwest to the Sylvan Lands.
    CoM, Explorer's Manual, page 35
BC 2250
  • For a short time, around 2250 bc, Ilsundal led several clans of elves on a migration across the Great Waste from the west, but they quickly moved on to more hospitable lands.
    CoM, Explorer's Manual, page 4
BC 2200
  • Southern elf migrants settle in the frozen valleys of Glantri.
    Gaz13 - pg 8 DM's Guide
  • Eight hundred years later (2200 BC), surface elves fleeing the southern continent arrived in Glantri, hoping to find the earlier elven colonists. Instead, they found humanoids and hostile humans who blamed the elves for the Rain of Fire. These elves did not find their cousins, most of them finding only death at the hands of the savages of the Broken Lands. A few were able to settle, however, and defend some land of their own.
    Gaz13 - pg 5 DM's Guide
  • Some Elven migrants settle in Glantri.
    Gaz5 - pg 7
  • Some elves break off from Ilsundal's migration and eventually find their way to the frozen valleys of Glantri, where they settle. A few survivors from the second migration from Vulcania also reach Glantri and settle among their cousins.
    HWOW - pg 12
BC 2100
  • Ilsundal's migration reaches Sylvan Relam. Meditor and Verdier clans leave Ilsundal's northward migration and settle in southern Karameikos.
    Gaz13 - pg 8 DM's Guide
  • Ilsundal's migration reaches Sylvan Realm (see CM7).
    Gaz5 - pg 7
  • Meditor and Verdier elf clans leave Ilsundal's northward migrations and settle in southern Traldar lands (Karameikos). The main force of Ilsundal's migration reaches the Sylvan Realm, far to the west of lands such as Karameikos and Thyatis (see module CM7).
    HWOW - pg 12
BC 1950
  • Then the small band travelled back to the surface, cautiously and with great apprehension. The holocaust seemed to be over, and they settled in Glantri again, in 1950 BC. It seems that they did not meet any of the elves from the second migration, since they were separated by many hostile humanoids and human tribes.
    Gaz13 - pg 5-6 DM's Guide
BC 1800
  • Ilsundal becomes an Immortal, creates the first Tree of Life.
    Gaz13 - pg 8 DM's Guide
  • Ilsundal becomes an Immortal, creates the first Tree of Life.
    Gaz5 - pg 7
  • In the Sylvan Realm, Ilsundal creates the first elvish tree of life and becomes an Immortal.
    HWOW - pg 12
BC 1750
  • Meditor elves are stranded on the newly-formed Minrothad Isles. Soon after, seagoing Verdier elves join them there.
    HWOW - pg 12
BC 1700
  • Elves find artifact of Blackmoor in the Broken Lands and trigger a cataclysm which buries the Hoard. Loark dies, the remains of the hoard break apart. Elves driven out of Glantri by local cataclysm.
    Gaz13 - pg 8 DM's Guide
  • Around 1700 BC the other, earlier elven settlers in Glantri found a strange artifact from the Blackmoor civilisation, in the Broken Lands. They tinkered with it, and it exploded cataclysmically. Great, impenetrable clouds of smoke and ash rose into the sky and did not disperse for years. A dreadful rotting plague affected many creatures in the area, with the ancestors of the shadow elves partly affected. When they first felt the explosion and saw the clouds, these elves fled for the caves below out of instinct and racial memory. This instant flight possibly saved them from extinction.
    Gaz13 - pg 6 DM's Guide
  • Elves driven out of Glantri by local cataclysms.
    Gaz5 - pg 7
  • The elves of Glantri discover, in the Broken Lands, a strange artifact from the lost Blackmoor civilization. They tinker with it, and the artifact explodes cataclysmically, sending impenetrable clouds into the sky (which last for years), and spreading a strange rotting plague among the surviving elves-those who were far enough away to survive. The elves shelter themselves in the deepest caves of Glantri. They find an incredible series of caverns there and begin a years-long migration. The travelling tribes are separated from one another. Some emerge, years later, hundreds of miles south, past the Broken Lands. Some reach the Hollow World. Some perish. Elsewhere, the catastrophe forms the Land of the Black Sand in the Ethengar Steppes.
    HWOW - pg 13
  • Some 3,700 years ago Atzanteotl was an elven clan-lord named Atziann living in the Glantri area. When some of his fellow elves found and accidentally triggered a dangerous Blackmoor device left in the Broken Lands, the resulting cataclysm drove the surviving elves in the area underground. Atziann and his clan travelled the labyrinth of caves under Glantri for dozen of years, during which time all his fellow clan members perished.
    WotI, Codex of the Immortals, page 16
    [Note: Should read 2700 years ago - the date given is most probably a typo. I've placed it at BC 1700.]
BC 1650
  • A surviving clan of Glantrian elves from the outer world finds its way to the Hollow World through thousands of miles of subterranean passages. The tribe emerges in lands thickly occupied by hostile Neathar tribes and dinosaurs; they migrate northward, to lands similar to frozen Glantri, and settle in the mountains south of the Beastmen and west of the Antalians. They call their new land Icevale.
    HWIW - pg 13
  • Atziann, elf-king and sole survivor of his clan, emerges in the Hollow World near the Azcan capital; fascinated by them, and using his magic to move unseen among them, he stays with the Azcans for several years before embarking on his own path to Immortality.
    HWIW - pg 13
BC 1500
  • The elf-king Atziann, now calling himself Atzanteotl (a name in the Azcan fashion), achieves Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy and begins his plan to corrupt the Shadow Elves and the Azcan race. He begins whispering to selected Shadow Elves and Azcan rulers of the power and glory he can bring them, and lures them away from their faiths. Increasing numbers of Shadow Elves (especially those of the Schattenalfen clan) turn from the worship of Rafiel to that of Atzanteotl; likewise, many Azcans turn away from Otzitiotl and Kalaktatla.
    HWIW - pg 13
  • Within a couple of hundred years, his unremitting evil had earned him a place among the evil Immortals. He then decided it was time to return his attention to his own people, now called the Shadow Elves, and shape them into a race more to his liking.
    Under the name Atzanteotl, he began to turn the minds of shadow-elf and Azcan clerics to his own twisted evils.
    WotI, Codex of the Immortals, page 16
BC 1420
  • Underground elves discover temple to Atzanteotle, build the city of Aengmor around it.
    Gaz13 - pg 8 DM's Guide
  • The main body of the shadow elves fell upon the Azcans rather later, in 1420 BC.
    Gaz13 - pg 44 DM's Guide
  • Outer-world Shadow Elves called the Schattenalfen, following the guidance of the Immortal Atzanteotl, complete the construction of their underground city of Aengmor.
    HWOW - pg 13
BC 1402
  • Yet even in this darkness, there seemed to be hope. In a very deep cavern below the Broken Lands they found a temple, built in a strange and unfamiliar style and the centre of a community of barbaric humans, the Azcan (somewhat akin to the Aztecs of our world). The elves drove the humans out after prolonged battling, occupied the area, and adopted the central religion of the humans. Such a fearful and unfortunate people were very ready to worship the Immortal to whom this temple was raised, taking their discovery of it as a sign that he might favour them. Atzanteotl was the Immortal's name, and around his temple they built a great city, which they named Aengmor.
    Gaz13 - pg 6 DM's Guide
  • Certain Shadow Elves, especially the Schattenalfen clan, bean construction of a city, Aengmor, built along Azcan lines and dedicated to the glory of Atzanteotl.
    WotI, Codex of the Immortals, page 16
BC 1400
  • A colonizing party of Shadow Elves, mostly Schattenalf followers of Atzanteotl, retraces the path of the earlier, lost expedition and finds the Hollow World. They emerge just north of the great equatorial mountain range, right in the middle of the Kogolor Dwarf territory. They immediately begin a war against the dwarves, whose lands they want. The Immortal Kagyar causes Denwarf, the former leader of the Outer World's dwarves, to help the Kogolors against the Shadow Elves.
    HWIW - pg 13
BC 1395
  • The Schattenalfen are badly beaten by the Kogolor dwarves and must break off the war. They continue travelling west, to an area not infested with dwarves, and settle there. But due north of their new lands are the Azcans, whose culture and architecture are distrubingly and insultingly like theirs (a result of Atzanteotl's guidance of the Schattenalf culture, though they don't know this); the Schattenalfen hate these people, whom they see as a mockery of their culture, and begin an ages-long war with the Azcans.
    HWIW - pg 14
BC 1352
  • After nearly 50 years the construction of the city of Aengmor is completed.
    Gaz13 - pg 6 DM's Guide
  • Atzanteotl was the Immortal's name, and around his temple they built a great city, which they named Aengmor. Construction of the city, which lasted nearly 50 years, was ended in 1352 BC.
    Gaz13 - pg 6 DM's Guide
  • They slew most of the Azcans and drove them from the area, building up the city of Aengmor around the central temple of Atzanteotl and completing the city in 1352 BC. Here their numbers slowly grew and they were drawn into the barbaric worship of Atzanteotl, sacrificing both humanoids and even some of their own number to the evil entropic Immortal.
    Gaz13 - pg 44 DM's Guide
BC 1290
  • Atzanteotle surrounds Aengmor with lava, slaying many underground elves. The survivors flee into the deepest tunnels and recesses under the Broken Lands.
    Gaz13 - pg 8 DM's Guide
  • In 1290 BC, a sudden eruption spewed forth a vast lava stream which surrounded Aengmor and trapped the elves. Many died from toxic fumes or the overwhelming heat, but a fair number escaped through the use of magic. The survivors moved on to even deeper places, abandoning the city of Aengmor forever. They drove down deep, deep below the surface, on a restless decades-long search for a new homeland.
    Gaz13 - pg 6 DM's Guide
  • In 1290 BC, the evil one caused a volcano to erupt, surrounding Aengmor with lava. This caused many elves to be slain, and the others to flee, without destroying the whole city (and in particular without destroying his temple).
    Gaz13 - pg 44-45 DM's Guide
  • The outer-world Shadow Elf city of Aengmor is "destroyed" (actually merely surrounded by lava and made uninhabitable) during a volcanic eruption; many Schattenalfen escape, burrowing deeper into the crust of the earth. Actually, this is part of a grand scheme of Atzanteotl, their patron.
    HWOW - pg 14
  • Since those days, Atzanteotl has driven his Schattenalfen further underground and reoccupied their city Aengmor with orcs.
    WotI, Codex of the Immortals, page 16
BC 1104
  • Underground elves discover the Refuge of the Stone and take the name shadow elves unto themselves. Building work begins on the City of the Stars. Myfallar The Old is chosen as temporary King.
    Gaz13 - pg 8 DM's Guide
  • The shadow elves settled in the massive cavern, and erected a great Temple to Rafiel. Around this temple they built a city, the City of Stars. The Refuge of Stone was first discovered in 1104 BC, and the City of Stars completed (in its original hexagon form) in 1040.
    Gaz13 - pg 7 DM's Guide
  • Underground elves discover the Refuge of Stone and take the name of shadow elves unto themselves. Building work begins on the City of Stars.
    HWOW - pg 14
Last edited by Chimpman on Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Zendrolion
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:11 am

Gathering all canon sources about elven migrations is a great and helpful idea. This way, anyone will have under his eyes the basic material we're talking about.

Chimp, I'll post eventual canon citations that have still not found a way in your list.
For the first ones:

Wrath of the Immortals, Codex of the Immortals, page 16:
Some 3,700 years ago Atzanteotl was an elven clan-lord named Atziann living in the Glantri area. When some of his fellow elves found and accidentally triggered a dangerous Blackmoor device left in the Broken Lands, the resulting cataclysm drove the surviving elves in the area underground. Atziann and his clan travelled the labyrinth of caves under Glantri for dozen of years, during which time all his fellow clan members perished.
[...]
Within a couple of hundred years, his unremitting evil had earned him a place among the evil Immortals. He then decided it was time to return his attention to his own people, now called the Shadow Elves, and shape them into a race more to his liking.
Under the name Atzanteotl, he began to turn the minds of shadow-elf and Azcan clerics to his own twisted evils. [...] Certain Shadow Elves, especially the Schattenalfen clan, bean construction of a city, Aengmor, built along Azcan lines and dedicated to the glory of Atzanteotl.
[...]
Since those days, Atzanteotl has driven his Schattenalfen further underground and reoccupied their city Aengmor with orcs.


GAZ5, The Elven Migrations map page 6
Hollow World boxed set, Outer World Post-Cataclysmic Migration Map
These aren't citations, but are part of the BIGGER problem, as they shows two different routes for Ilsundal's migration.

Andrew, I think HW's map is the source of the second migration's route through the Serpent Peninsula you were talking about - sorry if I had not catched this one before. :oops:

Anyway, GAZ5 shows the migration starting from the southern point of the Ice Peaks, then passing west of Brasol Range up to the western side of the Adakkian Sound. Then, it goes NW along the Davanian north-western coast, passing south of the Izondian Wall, and crossing the Strait of Izonda. Halfway on the Immortal's Arm, the migration turns east, passing through the Orc's Head Peninsula and the whole lenght of the Savage Coast, then crossing the Black Mountains just where they descend into the Gulf of Hule. The the elves enter the Great Waste up to Sind (more or less), passing north of the Kurish Massif (this part is a little confused by the scale of the map, as it seems that the migrations crosses the Highlands or the Adri Varma's Plateau heading for Wendar or the Denagothian Plateau, then heading to Borea). From the area south of Urzud, they go south of The Cradle, cross the Yalu River and then head north again, finding the Sylvan Realm on the Endworld Line.
Unfortunately the only dates we have for this are the start of the migration in BC 2800, the settlement of some clans in Glantri by BC 2200, and the arrival in the Sylvan Realm in BC 2100.

On the other hand, HW shows a wholly different route. First and foremost, the elves' position in BC 3000 is located in the Green River area, and the migration starts from there, moving in BC 2800 to cross the eastern branch of the Ice Peaks, then north of the main range and east of the Brasol Range, up to to easternmost point of the Adakkian Sound. The migration then heads north-west along the north-eastern coast of the Adakkian Sound up to the Adakkian Mounts, crosses the Serpent Strait and travels north along the Serpent Peninsula. Before entering the Great Waste, a rift occurs: one branch heads east in BC 2200, passing through the Great Waste and seemingly going toward the Atruaghin area (again, the map's scale could be misleading, and the arrow should likely be considered to point Glantri); another branch heads north from the Serpent Peninsula, passing through the Black Mountains and Hule, crossing the Yalu River a little west of The Cradle and reaching the Sylvan Realm area by BC 2100.

No one of these migrations can be considered the "second migration" starting in BC 2500 and mentioned in GAZ5, becouse one clearly indicates Ilsundal's migration (GAZ5), and the other starts in BC 2800. Can a way to concile these two routes be possibly found or should one be discarded at all? :?:

Champions of Mystara, Explorer's Manual, page 35:
Around 2800 BC, two groups of elves left their ancestral lands (now under the southern polar ice cap). Some, led by Ilsundal, crossed western Davania. By 2300 BC they had crossed the Strait of Izonda to the Immortals' Arm, then headed east along the Savage Coast. Another group, whose leader's name is lost, took another route through the Adakkian Sound, where they rejoined Ilsundal's band and continued with them.
The Sheyallia clan turned south, onto the Serpent Peninsula, and settled in the forest. The Meditor and Verdier clans, disliking the increasingly rainy and hot climate, sailed east in search of better lands. They eventually settled in the Traldar lands (present-day Karameikos). Ilsundal and the other clans moved across the Great Waste to Glantri, then northwest to the Sylvan Lands.


This last citation make clear that the map featured in GAZ5 shows Ilsundal's migration, and that the whole migration went to Glantri, even if not all elves stopped there of course.

Champions of Mystara, Explorer's Manual, page 4:
For a short time, around 2250 bc, Ilsundal led several clans of elves on a migration across the Great Waste from the west, but they quickly moved on to more hospitable lands.

Another one that confirms what said above.
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:31 pm

Fantastic work everybody. That compilation of canon material is definitely a great idea (after all, that is why we are building a foundational timeline before anything else).
Zendrolion wrote:Champions of Mystara, Explorer's Manual, page 35:
Around 2800 BC, two groups of elves left their ancestral lands (now under the southern polar ice cap). Some, led by Ilsundal, crossed western Davania. By 2300 BC they had crossed the Strait of Izonda to the Immortals' Arm, then headed east along the Savage Coast. Another group, whose leader's name is lost, took another route through the Adakkian Sound, where they rejoined Ilsundal's band and continued with them.
The Sheyallia clan turned south, onto the Serpent Peninsula, and settled in the forest. The Meditor and Verdier clans, disliking the increasingly rainy and hot climate, sailed east in search of better lands. They eventually settled in the Traldar lands (present-day Karameikos). Ilsundal and the other clans moved across the Great Waste to Glantri, then northwest to the Sylvan Lands.
This the quote I wanted to discuss last night as well but it was just too late. Now, I'm not a grammar expect, but reading the above leads me to believe that what is being said is that Ilsundal traveled up the western side of Davania, over into Brun, and across to the Savage Coast. This establishes where Ilsundal is; i.e. the "where". Then we are told that another group took another route through the Adakkian Sound, and that is the way in which they met up with Ilsundal in the Savage coast.

I believe that this story of two migrations was created to rectify an error in the Hollow World set (yet another error that is), that showed the elven migration going up the Adakkian Sound and through the Serpent Peninsula. In this understanding, the Sheyallia clan did indeed 'turn back' to the Serpent Peninsula to settle [insert reason here].

[edit]Looks like Zen was coming to similar conclusions; this is a case study in why you should completely read a post before commenting.[/edit]

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:10 pm

Thanks for the quotes Zen. I'll add them in up above, but first had some questions about them
WotI wrote:Wrath of the Immortals, Codex of the Immortals, page 16:
Some 3,700 years ago Atzanteotl was an elven clan-lord named Atziann living in the Glantri area. When some of his fellow elves found and accidentally triggered a dangerous Blackmoor device left in the Broken Lands, the resulting cataclysm drove the surviving elves in the area underground. Atziann and his clan travelled the labyrinth of caves under Glantri for dozen of years, during which time all his fellow clan members perished.

This appears to actually cover quite a span of time. The listed date starts at BC 2700 (which seems a little too far back, taking Atziann's age into consideration. Also we know the LRoF was in BC 1700 - making Atziann king for 1000 years before his quest for immortality even starts.

WotI wrote:Within a couple of hundred years, his unremitting evil had earned him a place among the evil Immortals. BC 1500 He then decided it was time to return his attention to his own people, now called the Shadow Elves, and shape them into a race more to his liking.
Under the name Atzanteotl, he began to turn the minds of shadow-elf and Azcan clerics to his own twisted evils. [...] Certain Shadow Elves, especially the Schattenalfen clan, bean construction of a city, Aengmor, built along Azcan lines and dedicated to the glory of Atzanteotl. BC 1420 - BC 1352

Again it looks like this paragraph spans a large time period. I think it's helpful to iron out specific events that occurred, but it doesn't help much to tie those events down to a particular date. Fortunately we have good ideas of these dates already.

WotI wrote:Since those days, Atzanteotl has driven his Schattenalfen further underground and reoccupied their city Aengmor with orcs.
This spans the time from BC 1290 - BC 1190.

Do those dates seem right to you?

Adding in the CoM references (which I'll do just after this post) is easier since they have specific dates tied to them.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:57 pm

Alright, here's a fairly condensed timeline that hopefully unites all the canon we have. Please help me find errors or conflicting canon.

BC 3000
Elven colonies at 'broken land's' polar outpost, Urzud and surrounding region. GRoF kills many, sends most survivors underground. There are several groups wandering around. Atziann (Atzanteotl) was a hero of a small group that was separated from those who will become the Shadow Elves. At some point in the travels of Atziann's small clan, they settle and build the city of Aengmor.

BC 2800
The First Migration of elves from the south come up through the Arm of the Immortals and across to the region to Glantri. The Second Migration joined them later while small groups split off from the main one from time to time.

BC 2500
The Second Migration of elves head north and came up through the Serpent Peninsula, joining the First Migration in around the Savage Coast. The Belcadiz elves are among this group.

BC 2300
Elves arrive and settle the eastern and central Savage Coast.

BC 2200
Some elves break off from Ilsundal's migration and settle in the frozen valleys of Glantri, but did not find their cousins from the old polar outpost.

BC 2100
Meditor and Verdier clans leave Ilsundal's northward migration and settle in southern Karameikos. After exploring Urzud for lost elven survivors and finding none, Ilsundal's migration reaches Sylvan Relam.

BC 1950
One of the groups of underground elves which have been wandering around for over a 1000 years, cautiously resurface and settle [perhaps in the mountains of northern Glantri] but remain isolated from the other elves in southern Glantri.

BC 1800
Ilsundal becomes an Immortal.

BC 1750
Meditor elves are stranded on the newly-formed Minrothad Isles. Soon after, seagoing Verdier elves join them there. Some Azcans are trapped below their collapsed plateau and begin wandering.

BC 1700
An expedition of elves from Aengmor trigger the Blackmoorian device once belonging to the polar outpost and cause the LRoF. All surviving surface elves in Glantri head under ground and the clans are separated from each other. Several tribes emerge many years later in the future halfling lands; among them are the Gentle Folk who remain here and the Belcadiz who move on. Sometime between 1750 BC and 1650 BC, the underground Azcans came across Aengmor and oust Atziann's clan.

BC 1650
One such tribe encounters the Schattenalfen clan, but continues on their own due to population constraints and cultural clashes, and finds the Hollow World to become the Icevale elves. Atziann, now the sole survivor of his clan, emerges in the Hollow to discover a people much like the one's which took his city. This fascinates him and he begins to infiltrate their society.

BC 1500
Atziann achieves Immortality, calling himself Atzanteotl (a name in the Azcan fashion). He plans to corrupt first the Azcan humans (of the HW and of Aengmor) and then the remaining underground elves that he discovers still roam around aimlessly.

Sometime between here and 1420 BC, Atruatzin is hounded out of the HW Azcan Empire and finds himself welcomed by the Azcan of Aengmor, being of similar features (and in fact same ethnicity) and giving hope of life on the surface. However, these Azcan have been corrupted into serving Atzanteotl and this causes some conflicting desires among the people; do they follow the messages of their priests or of Atruatzin.

BC 1420
The large clan of Schattenalfen elves, descendants of the main body of elves driven underground from the polar outpost in 3000 BC (and the group from which Atziann's clan splintered off from), fall upon Aengmor through Atzanteotl's vengeance-seeking guidance and rout the Azcans from it. The Schattenalfen adopt the Azcan's worship of Atzanteotl.

BC 1400
After much reorganizing, planning and sending of proper exploratory expeditions, and tending to the temple, the Schattenalfen begin earnest reconstruction of the great city which will surround the temple.

One of the expeditions following the path of the elves that became the Icevale clan, reaches the the Hollow World and enters a war with the Kogolor Dwarves.

BC 1395
These Hollow World Schattenalfen are forced to withdraw to new lands only to discover that they're bordering lands of the Azcans who are quite similar culturally. However, their memory of the conquest of Aengmor is still fresh and believe them to be divine enemies of Atzanteotl.

BC 1352
The construction of Aengmor is fully completed. The Schattenalfen here are drawn into more barbaric worship of Atzanteotl, sacrificing both humanoids and even some of their own number.

BC 1290
Atzanteotl, displeased by the potential of the Schattenalfen in Aengmor, forces the elves out by 'natural' disaster, and destroying the city by lava.

BC 1104
Those Schattenalfen driven from Aengmor discover the Refuge of the Stone and take the name shadow elves unto themselves. Building work begins on the City of the Stars and a great Temple to Rafiel.

Note: I'll have to check it out later as well, but I think some more Schattenalfen reject the transition to Shadow Elf and join their Hollow World brethren.

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:43 am

Zendrolion wrote:Andrew, I think HW's map is the source of the second migration's route through the Serpent Peninsula you were talking about - sorry if I had not catched this one before. :oops:
That was the one- I just saw it last night myself.

Having found it, and rereading CoM's history of the Sheyallia, I remember what my rationale for the Sheyallia being part of the second Returnist migration was. A strict reading of the history would indicate that the two groups met up in the Adakkian Sound-

(CoM DM's Guide, p. 35): "Another group, whose leader's name is lost, took another route through the Adakkian Sound, where they rejoined Ilsundal's band and continued with them."

However, there is no indication from any of the migration maps that Ilsundal's band ever went through the Adakkian Sound (which would have required them to jump from Brun down to Davania, and then go back north again). Thus, I imagine that the author's intent was that the Second Returnists "took a route through the Adakkian Sound" to Brun, at which point they then "rejoined Ilsundal's band" at some point north of the Serpent Peninsula.

Thus, it made sense to me that, when the Sheyallia split from the merged migration, they did so with the intent of heading back into terrain they were already familiar with (the Serpent Peninsula) as part of the Second Returnist migration. Of course, that's just my interpretation, and it naturally still begs the question of why they split from the merged migration in the first place.

However, see my comments to your observation about the HW migratory map below for even further confusion. :lol:
Zendrolion wrote:No one of these migrations can be considered the "second migration" starting in BC 2500 and mentioned in GAZ5, becouse one clearly indicates Ilsundal's migration (GAZ5), and the other starts in BC 2800. Can a way to concile these two routes be possibly found or should one be discarded at all? :?:
I think we can't entirely reconcile them, no. My best guess is that the Green Arrow indicating the 2,800 date is intended to be Ilsundal's migration, which should have traveled up the Immortal's Arm (as indicated in Gaz5, and as backed up by the brief history of Aeryl from the Savage Coast/Princess Ark materials). That part of the migration (not on the HW map, but the Gaz5 map), then tracked across the Savage Coast and met up with the second migration north of the Serpent Peninsula.

The Second Migration, then, would otherwise follow the migratory path indicated by the Green Arrow as it currently stands on the HW migration map- ie, up through central Davania, along the Adakkian Sound, and then up the Serpent Peninsula, meeting up with Ilsundal's migration around 2200 BC in the Great Waste region (which I'm not sure was even a waste at the time, though I'd have to reread my Waste/Sind history). That's the point at which things begin to unravel among the migrationists for various reasons.

I would imagine that the Second Migration might even be the genesis of the ancestors of the N'djatwa, though- again- I don't recall my history on that point well enough offhand (time to dig out my old Princess Ark issues). If anyone has that issue handy, it might help us to try and fill in some gaps in the migration.

Again, though, that's all just my interpretation of things, based on what we have in the texts and on the maps- as confusing and contradictory as they all are.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:53 am

Hugin wrote:I believe that this story of two migrations was created to rectify an error in the Hollow World set (yet another error that is), that showed the elven migration going up the Adakkian Sound and through the Serpent Peninsula. In this understanding, the Sheyallia clan did indeed 'turn back' to the Serpent Peninsula to settle [insert reason here].
Oddly enough, there were always two migrations, going back as far as Gaz5, which stated that:

(p.6) "... although the Belcadiz elves of Glantri claim to be descendants of a similar group who left the southern continent some 300 years after Ilsundal." (ie, c. 2500 BC).

In fact, it is that latter sentence from Gaz5 that was one of the basis of my Belcadiz migration theory, reconciling the statement from canon (posted by Zendrolion in the Belcadiz Origin thread) that the Belcadiz claim to come from a land far beyond the Thanegioth isles (which Davania would certainly count as). That's where I decided to tie their origins to the Second Returnist migration, and had them split off from the merged migration (as the Sheyallia did), and took them back along Ilsundal's route to the Savage Coast, to try and better account for their racial appearance (darker skinned- a legacy, as I have it, of their blending with Oltecs/Nithians and the Cinnabar of the SC), and cultural differences. The Belcadiz clan- or Clan Alhambra, in any event- would have later split off from that group of SC elves and gone on to Glantri at/around/later than the time of Flaemish settlement.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:12 am

Speaking of the Savage Coast, might as well post some related entries from those products that might be pertinent:
Savage Coast Player's Guide wrote:(From "A Brief History, pdf pgs 9-13"):

Three Millennia Past: Elves appeared in the region roughly 3,300 years ago, spreading through the eastern and central Savage Coast. However, they did not significantly affect the local cultures because they did not intermingle. While elves and humans held power in the east, the enduks were created in the far west. Their first cities were built about 3,000 years ago on the Orc's Head peninsula.

About the same time, the araneas started to disappear, their web cities in the forests replaced by isolated towers inhabited by mages of elven and human form who kept lizard men, the ancestors of the shazaks, as servants and slaves. These folk began calling their land Herath.

Two and a Half Millennia Past: About 2,700 years ago, tribes of goblinoids arrived in the Yazak Steppes. Approximately 400 years later, both the elves and Oltecs were decimated by hordes of these goblinoids sweeping through the eastern Savage Coast. (Some elves remained in the areas that would later become Robrenn, Eusdria, Bellayne, and the Savage Baronies.) These same goblinoid hordes caused many lupin and rakasta tribes to relocate to the central part of the Savage Coast.

Five Centuries Past: About 560 years ago, an influx of Traldar arrived, possibly fleeing religious persecution in their homeland. They set up colonies along the coast, founding Slagovich and other city-states. The Traldar had lighter skin than the other humans in the area, being descended in part from Nithians and in part from the light-skinned Neathar. Primarily fishers and traders, the Traldar spread west slowly from Slagovich along the rivers. For the most part, except for the City-States, the Traldar were quickly assimilated by pre-existing cultures in the area. One exception was the group of humans who, with the elves and a few dwarves, founded the nation of Bellayne.

About 60 years later, other light-skinned humans moved into the area. These were barbarians from the north, driven to the Savage Coast by Hule. They founded settlements that eventually joined to become the states of Robrenn and Eusdria. Some elves and dwarves already lived in these areas. The elves allied with both Robrenn and Eusdria, while most dwarves allied with Eusdria. At roughly this same time, most of the people of Bellayne were wiped out by a mysterious plague. Many modern historians believe this to be the first recorded mention of the Red Curse. Also concurrent was the creation of the caymas, again by the mages of Herath. Most legends of dragons on the Savage Coast are from this time as well.

The rakastas moved into the ruins of Bellayne, allying with the remaining elves and humans. The lupins also established a homeland between Bellayne and Eusdria. Bellayne, Renardy, Eusdria, and Robrenn began evolving to varying degrees of feudalism, aided later by another influx of colonists.
And then, to further clarify, a timeline:
Savage Coast Player's Guide wrote:(pg. 26-27 of pdf)
B.C. 2300 Elves arrive in the region and settle the eastern and central
Savage Coast. They live alongside, but not among, the Oltecs.
B.C. 2000 Elf and human mages settle in the forests of the western Savage
Coast, supplanting the araneas; they name their land Herath. (Note: These "elves" are actually transformed aranea)
B.C. 1300 Goblinoid hordes decimate elven and Oltec civilization. Those
humans and elves who remain fall to a savage, semi-nomadic existence.
B.C. 700 Nithians arrive on the Savage Coast. They interbreed somewhat with
Oltecs. Elves of the eastern coast establish settlements in and around what will
eventually become Torreon and Narvaez.
AC 100 Goblinoid hordes sweep the coast again. Tortle civilization falls, and
humans, dwarves, and elves remaining along the eastern coast are prompted to
build permanent settlements.
AC 450 Traldar arrive in the region. They establish several city-states on the
eastern shores of the Gulf of Hule. Traldar who settle on the western shores and
absorb the existing human cultures descended from the Oltecs. Humans of the
eastern coast begin to establish permanent villages and intermingle with elves
of the region.
AC 500 Humans move into the areas that will eventually become Eusdria and
Robrenn; some elves and dwarves ally with these humans. Lupins and rakastas form
permanent settlements along the central Savage Coast in lands that will
eventually become Renardy and Bellayne.
Note: The reference to "elves" in the forests of Herath is actually to aranea transformed into elvish form. However, it should stand as good evidence to the passing of elves through that region of the SC, as otherwise the aranea would not likely have any knowledge of the race nor reason to attempt to emulate them.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:49 am

Hugin wrote:This the quote I wanted to discuss last night as well but it was just too late. Now, I'm not a grammar expect, but reading the above leads me to believe that what is being said is that Ilsundal traveled up the western side of Davania, over into Brun, and across to the Savage Coast. This establishes where Ilsundal is; i.e. the "where". Then we are told that another group took another route through the Adakkian Sound, and that is the way in which they met up with Ilsundal in the Savage coast.
I'm not particularly fond of this use of "where", but I agree it's the only way possible to reconcile things unless one discards the HW migration map's route showing the elves going through the Serpent Strait.
Chimpman wrote:Thanks for the quotes Zen. I'll add them in up above, but first had some questions about them
You're welcome! :)
Chimpman wrote:
WotI wrote:Wrath of the Immortals, Codex of the Immortals, page 16:
Some 3,700 years ago Atzanteotl was an elven clan-lord named Atziann living in the Glantri area. When some of his fellow elves found and accidentally triggered a dangerous Blackmoor device left in the Broken Lands, the resulting cataclysm drove the surviving elves in the area underground. Atziann and his clan travelled the labyrinth of caves under Glantri for dozen of years, during which time all his fellow clan members perished.

This appears to actually cover quite a span of time. The listed date starts at BC 2700 (which seems a little too far back, taking Atziann's age into consideration. Also we know the LRoF was in BC 1700 - making Atziann king for 1000 years before his quest for immortality even starts.

It's obviously a typo. Likely it meant 2,700 years ago etc. which put it around the BC 1700 date.

Chimpman wrote:
WotI wrote:Within a couple of hundred years, his unremitting evil had earned him a place among the evil Immortals. BC 1500 He then decided it was time to return his attention to his own people, now called the Shadow Elves, and shape them into a race more to his liking.
Under the name Atzanteotl, he began to turn the minds of shadow-elf and Azcan clerics to his own twisted evils. [...] Certain Shadow Elves, especially the Schattenalfen clan, bean construction of a city, Aengmor, built along Azcan lines and dedicated to the glory of Atzanteotl. BC 1420 - BC 1352

Again it looks like this paragraph spans a large time period. I think it's helpful to iron out specific events that occurred, but it doesn't help much to tie those events down to a particular date. Fortunately we have good ideas of these dates already.

Exactly, I agree with the dates you added.

Chimpman wrote:
WotI wrote:Since those days, Atzanteotl has driven his Schattenalfen further underground and reoccupied their city Aengmor with orcs.
This spans the time from BC 1290 - BC 1190.
Right.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:33 pm

Zendrolion wrote:It's obviously a typo. Likely it meant 2,700 years ago etc. which put it around the BC 1700 date.
This was my first thought as well. Making Atziann king during BC 1700 makes much more sense. That gives him 200 years to reach immortality, and (if we assume his kingship starts somewhere around the age of 400 to 500) this might put him in the upper range of elven lifespans, which I think is appropriate.

I'll add those quotes in to the timeline.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:01 pm

Hey Chimpman, have we nailed down the elven migrations here? As far as I can tell I think we have.

Anyone else have any further comments on this subject? If not, we should finalize this.

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:09 pm

Other than what we're working out in the two other elven threads (details over Belcadiz and Schattenalfen), I think this looks pretty good. At least up to the times that we are dealing with. Both of our timelines in this thread seem to stop at BC 1104, however there are a few more migrations that happen after that (and it seems like we've talked about these in other threads).

I'll take some time and comb through the other threads we've done, just to make sure we're not leaving anything out here.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:24 pm

Ok, here's one topic - When did the Gentle Folk emerge in/near the shires area?

BC 1300
  • (Approximate date) "The Early Days." The coming of halflings to Faerdinel and the building of Faerdinel Keep. Hin contact the Gentle Folk (failing elven race).
    Gaz8 - pg 8
  • The halflings from the southern continent, long-abandoned by their friends the elves, and increasingly endangered by the ever-growing human population, make a mass naval migration to the northern continent. They settle the area later called the Five Shires. They become friends with a declining, pacifistic clan of elves called the Gentle Folk.
    HWOW - pg 14
BC 1000
  • Elves disappear. Orcs invade the land and enslave the hin. The Realm of Othrong is founded. To the east, gnoll tribes invade Traldar territory and a great war begins (perhaps displacing the orcs who came to the halfling lands).
    Gaz8 - pg 8
The BC 1300 date is actually the arrival date for the hin... we might assume that the elves had emerged from underground at some point before this. On the other hand, being underground for 400 years seems reasonable, and the arrival of the hin might have been what triggered the Gentle Folk to emerge in the first place. There may be additional information in the Gentle Folk write up (all I'm looking at is the overview timeline at the moment), so I think we need to double check there before finalizing this one.

The second date is that of their disappearance. That may be easier to handle. It seems that it coincides with all of the increased humanoid activities in the area (gnolls in Traladara, orcs in Shires and Atraughin lands), and it's probably not a stretch to assume that the humanoids are responsible for wiping these elves out.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:37 pm

The other points we've missed are from earlier in the thread.
BC 800
Sylvan Realm -> Alfheim (Mealiden leads his followers across Rainbow to found Alfheim)
Sylvan Realm -> Callarii (split from Mealiden colonists)
Sylvan Realm -> Shiye (split from Mealiden colonists under Eiryndul, take Rainbow Path to Alphatia)
Sylvan Realm -> Trueflower clan (Ilsundal followers left on Great Escarpment on IoD - M5)

BC 500 ???
Shiye -> Shyre Lawr (declared elven kingdom)

AC 600
Sylvan Realm -> Alfheim (Feadiel)

AC 700
Alfheim -> Glantri (Erewan)
Not sure if there was much contention here though. I think the only point was about the Shiye BC 500 date. So far I like the previous explanation that the Shiye came over on the Rainbow Path in BC 800, but it wasn't until BC 500 that they founded their kingdom. So unless there is a problem with that, I say we go with it.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:47 pm

Interesting. I don't think there is any canon reference to when exactly the Gentle Folk emerged by they should have spent a sizable amount of time wandering underground (a couple of centuries seems appropriate). I think I would like to have them established on the surface before the hin arrive, though it isn't a big deal to me.

The Shiye seems fairly straight forward for the most part. Having them come over the Rainbow Bridge with the others sounds good, then some ambitious leader herds some elves off to find their own land. Having 300 years between the time of settling a land and founding an actual kingdom appears just fine to me.

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by JohnBiles » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:57 pm

Given the presence of things like the Deep Glaurants under the Shires, I would expect that the Gentle Folk would have had to come to the Surface pretty quickly to protect themselves once they ended up under the Shires.

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:26 pm

JohnBiles wrote:Given the presence of things like the Deep Glaurants under the Shires, I would expect that the Gentle Folk would have had to come to the Surface pretty quickly to protect themselves once they ended up under the Shires.
Good point. What do we know about the Deep Glaurants? I wonder of the Gentle Folk could have learned any of the secrets of Blackflame while down there as well?
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:52 pm

Chimpman wrote:What do we know about the Deep Glaurants?
Other than them having cities and nation deep below the mountains, nothing I think. (For now :twisted: )
I wonder of the Gentle Folk could have learned any of the secrets of Blackflame while down there as well?
I really don't think they'd overly care much to investigate it but they may have come in contact with it and told the halflings of its existence.

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Zendrolion » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:11 am

Chimpman wrote:Ok, here's one topic - When did the Gentle Folk emerge in/near the shires area?
Given the fact that the Icevale only needed about 50 years to reach the Hollow World from Glantri, and that the Truedyl seems to have well preserved their woodland culture while staying in the Five Shires area, I'd say that they could reemerge at any time from BC 1700 to BC 1600. I'd not push this date further.

After all, their fatalism doesn't come from a life spent underground, and they don't seem used to hardships like the Shadow Elves.
Chimpman wrote: BC 500 ???
Shiye -> Shyre Lawr (declared elven kingdom)
[...]
Not sure if there was much contention here though. I think the only point was about the Shiye BC 500 date. So far I like the previous explanation that the Shiye came over on the Rainbow Path in BC 800, but it wasn't until BC 500 that they founded their kingdom. So unless there is a problem with that, I say we go with it.
Perhaps they had already founded their kingdoms, and BC 500 is the date it received official recognition within the Alphatian Empire. Doesn't really make a difference, however. ;)
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:06 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
Chimpman wrote:Ok, here's one topic - When did the Gentle Folk emerge in/near the shires area?
Given the fact that the Icevale only needed about 50 years to reach the Hollow World from Glantri, and that the Truedyl seems to have well preserved their woodland culture while staying in the Five Shires area, I'd say that they could reemerge at any time from BC 1700 to BC 1600. I'd not push this date further.

After all, their fatalism doesn't come from a life spent underground, and they don't seem used to hardships like the Shadow Elves.
I took a look in the HW book last night and it just says "years" so I agree that it shouldn't be very long at all. Interestingly though, it mentions Immortal guidance to the surface as well as Thanatos' whispering influences. However, I doubt that the 'guiding Immortal' is the same as Thanatos judging by the way it's presented, and its more likely that Thanatos brought about "the still way" as a means of wresting the elves from following that other Immortal.

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:01 pm

Zendrolion wrote:
Chimpman wrote:Ok, here's one topic - When did the Gentle Folk emerge in/near the shires area?
Given the fact that the Icevale only needed about 50 years to reach the Hollow World from Glantri, and that the Truedyl seems to have well preserved their woodland culture while staying in the Five Shires area, I'd say that they could reemerge at any time from BC 1700 to BC 1600. I'd not push this date further.

After all, their fatalism doesn't come from a life spent underground, and they don't seem used to hardships like the Shadow Elves.
Good point. I'd say somewhere between 50 - 100 years then. Any less and we take away the destructiveness of the LRoF. I think there needs to be some amount of "fallout" time and period that the outside (at least in the Glantri/Broken Lands area) is poisoned and deadly.
Chimpman wrote: BC 500 ???
Shiye -> Shyre Lawr (declared elven kingdom)
[...]
Not sure if there was much contention here though. I think the only point was about the Shiye BC 500 date. So far I like the previous explanation that the Shiye came over on the Rainbow Path in BC 800, but it wasn't until BC 500 that they founded their kingdom. So unless there is a problem with that, I say we go with it.
Perhaps they had already founded their kingdoms, and BC 500 is the date it received official recognition within the Alphatian Empire. Doesn't really make a difference, however. ;)[/quote]
That's what I meant to say (but didn't say well). I'm sure they would have had some form of government in place shortly after they arrived on Alphatia, but I like the BC 500 date for when Alphatia proper recognizes them as a kingdom.
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Chimpman
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:04 pm

Hugin wrote:I took a look in the HW book last night and it just says "years" so I agree that it shouldn't be very long at all. Interestingly though, it mentions Immortal guidance to the surface as well as Thanatos' whispering influences. However, I doubt that the 'guiding Immortal' is the same as Thanatos judging by the way it's presented, and its more likely that Thanatos brought about "the still way" as a means of wresting the elves from following that other Immortal.
Thanks Hugin. Hmmm... ok if it says years, I'd lean more toward the 50 year mark. So maybe we could have an event like this:

BC 1650 (circa): The Truedyl clan emerges from their flight underground somewhere in the Shires.
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