[GazH] Elven Migrations

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:05 pm

I was going over this thread to see about tying it up what I realized I'm still not sure about something;

Were the Schattenalfen a separate clan that came in 2200 BC while the Shadow Elves descended from the Blackmoor era elves?

From all the histories I've been reading, it appears as though the Shadow elves and Schattenalfen had a common ancestry, or at the very least traveled together for a time. So even with this understanding, the question above can be true.

As I'm seeing it right now (and I'm looking for confirmation or reasons why it can't be so), the Shadow Elf ancestors had been underground since the GRoF and the Schattenalfen only since 1700 BC. At some point between 1700 BC and 1420 BC these two groups were united (but still identifying distinct clans just as done in Alfheim) and conquered Aengmor. Soon after this, and with the conversion to Atzanteotl's precepts, an expedition was launched by a faction of the Schattenalfen clan following Atzanteotl's demands (leading them to the Hollow World). Perhaps it should be noted here that it appears that the Schattenalfen clan was the most accepting of Atzanteotl's religion.

By 1290 BC Atzanteotl had grown displeased at the potential of these Aengmorian elves and so displaced them. Traveling again they find Rafiel's Refuge of the Stone, turn to it's promises, and built a temple. Some elves among them doubted this new code, mainly those of the Schattenalfen clan, which left to pursue worship of Atzanteotl. He lead these loyal elves to the Hollow World to join those Schattenalfen which were guided here earlier from Aengmor.

I believe this accounts for everything we have in canon, but is their something I'm missing or forgot? With this determined we should have this topic resolved (except for the Belcadiz, surprise, surprise ;) )

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:15 pm

I know, that's the way I used to think of it too, however I think the argument that Zen has been making is this:

Some group of Underground elves re-colonized the surface in BC 1950. This group later fled back underground in BC 1700 and met up with other elves who had stayed underground the entire time. Those that stayed underground the entire time were the Shadow Elf ancestors. The ones who recolonized the surface and then fled back underground in BC 1700 were the Schattenalfen.

That's just from memory of our various discussions, so I may be misremembering. I'll have to go back and read the posts in the Schattenalfen thread to be sure. I can't remember the exact arguments at the moment, but I remember thinking that they were pretty convincing when I read them ;)
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:37 pm

So that basically means everything I wrote will still work with the exception that the Schattenalfen were not a migrating clan arriving in 2200 BC. That's perfectly fine with me.

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:39 pm

Hugin wrote:So that basically means everything I wrote will still work with the exception that the Schattenalfen were not a migrating clan arriving in 2200 BC. That's perfectly fine with me.
Yup.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:53 pm

Here's another pass of your timeline, Chimpman. What do you think?

BC 4000 - BC 3000
Southern (Grunland/Vulcanian) Elves -> Blackmoor colonists

BC 3000
Blackmoor colonists -> perished in GRoF
Blackmoor colonists (outpost at Sylvan Realm) -> joined Ilsundal's group
Blackmoor colonists (polar research outpost) -> Shadow Elf & Schattenalfen ancestors (seek shelter underground)
Blackmoor colonists (near Urzud) -> Wendarian elves (manage to survive above ground), Dark Elves (retreat underground near Mengul Mts.)

BC 2800
Vulcania Elves -> Returnists (nature loving elves under Ilsundal begin northward migrations)
Vulcania Elves -> Technologists (remain in Vulcania and presumably still practice Blackmoorian technology)

BC 2500
Vulcania Elves -> Second Separatists (begin their own migration - Belcadiz, Truedyl, Icevale, Sheyallia, and perhaps others that perished)
Schattenalfen ancestors -> Atziann's splinter group clan (found first Aengmor)

BC 2400
Vulcania Elves -> presumed destroyed and never heard from again
Vulcania Elves -> wild antarctic elves (VotPA)
Vulcania Elves -> Blacklore Elves (in HW)

BC 2300
Returnists + Second Separatists -> Ilsundal's Migration (both groups of Vulcanian elves meet up in the Savage Coast).

BC 2200
Ilsundal's Migration-> Glantrian Elves (Icevale)
Ilsundal's Migration -> Glantrian Elves (Truedyl), others

BC 2100
Ilsundal's Migration -> Meditor and Verdier settle in southern Karameikos
Ilsundal's Migration -> Sylvan Realm (the Returnists reach their final destination, reunite with elves there)

BC 1950
Shadow Elf splinter group -> Glantrian (Schattenalfen) Elves (a small band of elves moves back to the surface forming the Schattenalfen clan, though they have no contact with others of their kind)

BC 1750
Atziann's clan -> (resurfaces to live by Schattenalfen group in Glantri)

BC 1700
Glantrian Elves -> Schattenalfen (driven underground, rejoin main Shadow Elves group)
Glantrian Elves -> Icevale elves (in HW)
Glantrian Elves -> Gentle Folk & Belcadiz (travel underground but will reemerge c. 1650 BC)

BC 1650
Gentle Folk & Belcadiz emerge from underground

BC 1420 - 1402
Shadow Elf ancestors & Schattenalfen -> Aengmor (this is the second founding of Aengmor)

BC 1400
Schattenalfen, Aengmor -> Schattenalfen, Hollow World (from Aengmor, a small group of elves is sent on an expedition and find the HW)

BC 1290
Shadow Elf ancestors & Schattenalfen, Aengmor -> the city is surrounded by lava and all elves flee.

BC 1104
Shadow Elf ancestors -> Shadow Elves (find Refuge of the Stone)

BC 1000
Gentle Folk -> destroyed on OW, and moved to HW

BC 800
Sylvan Realm -> Alfheim (Mealiden leads his followers across Rainbow to found Alfheim)
Sylvan Realm -> Callarii (split from Mealiden colonists)
Sylvan Realm -> Shiye (split from Mealiden colonists under Eiryndul, take Rainbow Path to Alphatia)
Sylvan Realm -> Trueflower clan (Ilsundal followers left on Great Escarpment on IoD - M5)

BC 500 ???
Shiye -> Shyre Lawr (declared elven kingdom)

AC 600
Sylvan Realm -> Alfheim (Feadiel)

AC 700
Belcadiz return to Glantri
AC 730
Alfheim -> Glantri (Erewan)

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:53 pm

Moving this over from the shadow elves thread.
Hugin wrote:
Chimpman wrote:Good points. So I'm still assuming that the Dark Elves fled underground in BC 3000. Do you see them as a clan that went underground in the Glantri/Broken Lands area (along with the ancestors of Shadow Elves and Schattenalfen), and then subsequently got separated from other clans and lost? Or do you see them as an entirely separate group that went underground in some other region, perhaps further to the north and east?
Right now, I'm thinking that the Shadow Elves and Schattenalfen descended from the elves of the polar outpost, possibly joined by small bands of lost elves over the course of the next 2000 years. This gives them a relatively small genetic pool that could be a large factor in their physical changes and high chance of "deformed babies".

The dark elves are a portion of survivors from around Urzud that decided to go underground near the Mengul Mountains, while others stayed above ground to become the elves of Wendar and Denagoth. There may have been some individual dark elves that joined the surface elves in Denagoth :?: .
Ok, here's one more piece to the elvish puzzle that we're missing. I'm pretty sure that OldDawg mentioned where canon sources to these elves can be found, but I'd have to go back and search for that post. I'd like to start adding these sources to our timeline as well.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:41 am

Hugin wrote:Here's another pass of your timeline, Chimpman. What do you think?
Looks good. There are a few entries that I'm not so familiar with though - leaving feedback below:
BC 4000 - BC 3000
Southern (Grunland/Vulcanian) Elves -> Blackmoor colonists

BC 3000
Blackmoor colonists -> perished in GRoF
Blackmoor colonists (outpost at Sylvan Realm) -> joined Ilsundal's group
Blackmoor colonists (polar research outpost) -> Underground Elves Shadow Elf & Schattenalfen ancestors (seek shelter underground)
Blackmoor colonists (near Urzud) -> Wendarian elves (manage to survive above ground), Dark Elves (retreat underground near Mengul Mts.)
The two entries in red I'm not familiar with. Is there a Sylvan Realm outpost at this time? If there is, how do those elves join Ilsundal (who should be in Grunland/Vulcania at this point)?
As for the Wendarians, I need to dig out X11 and actually find some solid references. I'm just not familiar enough with them to comment.

Another thing I think we should do (just for the sake of clarity, as per Zen's suggestion) is to refer to all those elves who fled underground in BC 3000 as Underground Elves. Schattenalfen shouldn't be mentioned until BC 1420, and Shadoe Elves shouldn't be mentioned until BC 1104.
BC 2800
Vulcania Elves -> Returnists (nature loving elves under Ilsundal begin northward migrations)
Vulcania Elves -> Technologists (remain in Vulcania and presumably still practice Blackmoorian technology)

BC 2500
Vulcania Elves -> Second Separatists (begin their own migration - Belcadiz, Truedyl, Icevale, Sheyallia, and perhaps others that perished)
Schattenalfen ancestors -> Atziann's splinter group clan (found first Aengmor)
Yep, this looks good. I think BC 2500 is good for the founding of Aengmor.
BC 2400
Vulcania Elves -> presumed destroyed and never heard from again
Vulcania Elves -> wild antarctic elves (VotPA)
Vulcania Elves -> Blacklore Elves (in HW)

BC 2300
Returnists + Second Separatists -> Ilsundal's Migration (both groups of Vulcanian elves meet up in the Savage Coast).

BC 2200
Ilsundal's Migration-> Glantrian Elves (Icevale)
Ilsundal's Migration -> Glantrian Elves (Truedyl), others

BC 2100
Ilsundal's Migration -> Meditor and Verdier settle in southern Karameikos
Ilsundal's Migration -> Sylvan Realm (the Returnists reach their final destination, reunite with elves there)
Ahhh... ok, I think I understand this better now. I need to break out my copy of Tree of Life and reread it again. I wasn't aware that there were elves already in the Sylvan Realm, but that makes sense. In this case are you suggesting that those elves were in contact with Ilsundal somehow, leading him to his final destination?
BC 1950
Shadow Elf splinter group -> Glantrian (Schattenalfen) Elves (a small band of elves moves back to the surface forming the Schattenalfen clan, though they have no contact with others of their kind)

BC 1750
Atziann's clan -> (resurfaces to live by Schattenalfen group in Glantri)
Yup, these changes are good.
BC 1700
Glantrian Elves -> Schattenalfen (driven underground, rejoin main Shadow Elves group)
Glantrian Elves -> Icevale elves (in HW)
Glantrian Elves -> Gentle Folk & Belcadiz (travel underground but will reemerge c. 1650 BC)

BC 1650
Gentle Folk & Belcadiz emerge from underground
The Gentle Folk I agree with. I'm reserving judgment on the Belcadiz however ;)
BC 1420 - 1402
Shadow Elf ancestors & Schattenalfen -> Aengmor (this is the second founding of Aengmor)

BC 1400
Schattenalfen, Aengmor -> Schattenalfen, Hollow World (from Aengmor, a small group of elves is sent on an expedition and find the HW)
Let's also add in
BC 1395
Schattenalfen establish Schattenalfheim in the Hollow World.

Also, Zen suggested before that the BC 1400 date for the Schattenalfen split should be considered a circa, and that he thought the split was more likely to have happened before Aengmore is captured rather than after. If the split happens before, then we need to change that date to BC 1420 (this will also require we ignore at least one piece of canon which says a group of Schattenalfen were driven from Aengmor). I'm ok, either way, but we should decide this.
BC 1290
Shadow Elf ancestors & Schattenalfen, Aengmor -> the city is surrounded by lava and all elves flee.

BC 1104
Shadow Elf ancestors -> Shadow Elves (find Refuge of the Stone)

BC 1000
Gentle Folk -> destroyed on OW, and moved to HW

BC 800
Sylvan Realm -> Alfheim (Mealiden leads his followers across Rainbow to found Alfheim)
Sylvan Realm -> Callarii (split from Mealiden colonists)
Sylvan Realm -> Shiye (split from Mealiden colonists under Eiryndul, take Rainbow Path to Alphatia)
Sylvan Realm -> Trueflower clan (Ilsundal followers left on Great Escarpment on IoD - M5)

BC 500 ???
Shiye -> Shyre Lawr (declared elven kingdom)

AC 600
Sylvan Realm -> Alfheim (Feadiel)

AC 700
Belcadiz return to Glantri
AC 730
Alfheim -> Glantri (Erewan)
Yes, this all looks good. We are getting very close here. I'll be glad when we can lay one of these threads to rest ;)
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:35 pm

Alright, I'm fully back and able to make some comments (hopefully).
Chimpman wrote:The two entries in red I'm not familiar with. Is there a Sylvan Realm outpost at this time? If there is, how do those elves join Ilsundal (who should be in Grunland/Vulcania at this point)?
As for the Wendarians, I need to dig out X11 and actually find some solid references. I'm just not familiar enough with them to comment.

Another thing I think we should do (just for the sake of clarity, as per Zen's suggestion) is to refer to all those elves who fled underground in BC 3000 as Underground Elves. Schattenalfen shouldn't be mentioned until BC 1420, and Shadoe Elves shouldn't be mentioned until BC 1104.
The elves in the "Sylvan Realm" came from another discussion regarding the elven migrations and specifically Ilsundal's. I had come up with three "Blackmoorian" colonies of elves that were not in or next to the Empire itself. These three colonies were;
- the Northern Research Outpost in the present day Broken Lands investigating the polar opening and Radiance energy emissions,
- the Urzud colony (not called Urzud back then) which was a frontier military/resource exploration colony, and
- the Sylvan Realm colony (again, not called that back then) which was a trading and resupply port.

These were suggested for multiple reasons but one of them is to give reason why Ilsundal took the route he did to get to (and found/establish) the Sylvan Realm; he checked each location for survivors of the known colonies. None of them are strictly canon. I looked through X11 (quickly though) and saw no specific references for history that far back.

I used the 'xxx ancestors' label to distinguish between the different underground elves but also stress that they weren't actually called by that name yet (unless I missed some). But being from the same original colony (Northern Outpost) I guess we could just use the term "Underground".
I think BC 2500 is good for the founding of Aengmor.
Ya, I just gave it a very rounded number so it could be +/- a couple hundred years if desired.
Ahhh... ok, I think I understand this better now. I need to break out my copy of Tree of Life and reread it again. I wasn't aware that there were elves already in the Sylvan Realm, but that makes sense. In this case are you suggesting that those elves were in contact with Ilsundal somehow, leading him to his final destination?
It's not that Ilsundal was lead by elves from the 'Sylvan Realm' but rather that he was purposely seeking out survivors from known elven colonies; first in the 'broken lands' (Northern Outpost), then Urzud, and finally the 'Sylvan Realm'.

I checked out my CM7 (again, quickly) as well but did not find anything about the Sylvan Realm's history before the elves hid themselves in the trees. This makes it all speculation even though it doesn't conflict with canon (that I'm aware of).
The Gentle Folk I agree with. I'm reserving judgment on the Belcadiz however ;)
This is based on Gaz 3's suggestion "of a few tribes that emerged from caves hundreds of miles south, past the Broken Lands". We know one of them was the Gentle Elves and I am making an assumption that another may have been the Belcadiz. Again, this is speculation that has its seed in a canon statement.
BC 1400
Schattenalfen, Aengmor -> Schattenalfen, Hollow World (from Aengmor, a small group of elves is sent on an expedition and find the HW)
Let's also add in
BC 1395
Schattenalfen establish Schattenalfheim in the Hollow World.

Also, Zen suggested before that the BC 1400 date for the Schattenalfen split should be considered a circa, and that he thought the split was more likely to have happened before Aengmore is captured rather than after. If the split happens before, then we need to change that date to BC 1420 (this will also require we ignore at least one piece of canon which says a group of Schattenalfen were driven from Aengmor). I'm ok, either way, but we should decide this.
Ya, we should add that in. However, the problem I have with the split occurring before acquiring Aengmor is that the Schattenalfen would not have had the Azcan-like culture yet (unless we have Atzanteotl reveal it completely to them beforehand). To be honest though, I really like the idea of having them receive the full revelation of Atzanteotl once they arrive in Aengmor and see the temple, almost as if it is at that moment that they see Atzanteotl himself.
Yes, this all looks good. We are getting very close here. I'll be glad when we can lay one of these threads to rest ;)
Indeed (although I think one of the other ones is basically resolved).

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:58 pm

Hugin wrote:However, the problem I have with the split occurring before acquiring Aengmor is that the Schattenalfen would not have had the Azcan-like culture yet (unless we have Atzanteotl reveal it completely to them beforehand). To be honest though, I really like the idea of having them receive the full revelation of Atzanteotl once they arrive in Aengmor and see the temple, almost as if it is at that moment that they see Atzanteotl himself.
Yeah, that's a really good point. To be perfectly honest I like the idea of the split more after the conquest of Aengmor (and the canon timelines support this), so I'm inclined to go that way... but don't have strong feelings for it one way or the other. The only thing we would have to figure out is a reason why Atzanteotle forced a group of schattenalfen out of the city right after it's conquest (but probably before the city was completed in full). I think maybe there is a good story in that tale, but not sure what it could be. Anyway, we don't have to nail things like that down for the timeline.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:40 pm

Chimpman wrote:The only thing we would have to figure out is a reason why Atzanteotle forced a group of schattenalfen out of the city right after it's conquest (but probably before the city was completed in full).
I figure it was slightly over twenty years after the taking of Aengmor, enough time to get the cult of Atzanteotl well established. The "why" is pure guesswork but I think it was because he wanted to get messing with the Hollow World and the Azcans as soon as possible.
I think maybe there is a good story in that tale, but not sure what it could be. Anyway, we don't have to nail things like that down for the timeline.
Absolutely, and just to remind you, the GazH project will eventually explore things like this and develop them. These are the kind of stories and events that can be explored in depth (near-gazetteer-like) once the base timeline is established.

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:16 pm

has anyone given any thought to why the Erewan elves split from the Erendyl clan... I don't recall any canon... but might have missed something. I have a writeup on Erewan coming up.. and if there is nothing... I guess we'll throw something interesting up against the wall and see if it sticks.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Chimpman » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:30 pm

There is a canon date for the split IIRC, but not a canon reason that I am aware of.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:32 pm

micky wrote:has anyone given any thought to why the Erewan elves split from the Erendyl clan... I don't recall any canon... but might have missed something. I have a writeup on Erewan coming up.. and if there is nothing... I guess we'll throw something interesting up against the wall and see if it sticks.
That's a very good question! I don't think there is any canon mention of why, other than the fact that the Belcadiz returned to Glantri, and that was enough to attract multiple immigrations.

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:45 pm

Hugin wrote:
micky wrote:has anyone given any thought to why the Erewan elves split from the Erendyl clan... I don't recall any canon... but might have missed something. I have a writeup on Erewan coming up.. and if there is nothing... I guess we'll throw something interesting up against the wall and see if it sticks.
That's a very good question! I don't think there is any canon mention of why, other than the fact that the Belcadiz returned to Glantri, and that was enough to attract multiple immigrations.
I'm leaning towards the Radiance drawing Charon Erewan to Glantri (who later was a Radiance mage IIRC).... or is that too...err.. simple an explantion :lol:
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:00 am

micky wrote:I'm leaning towards the Radiance drawing Charon Erewan to Glantri (who later was a Radiance mage IIRC).... or is that too...err.. simple an explantion :lol:
Well, although that may work, it's thoroughly far too simple! :P :lol:

Seriously though, it sounds like a good connection if your memory is correct.

[edit] I just read in Gaz 3 that the settlers were "attracted by rumours of the strange magical force". Works for me.[/edit]
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:11 am

micky wrote:has anyone given any thought to why the Erewan elves split from the Erendyl clan...
I don't believe there was a canon reason, though I made an assumption once upon a time that it was due to a clan leader dispute. I'm not sure what others have done, but that seemed the most likely scenario to me.
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by hihama » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:38 am

This is not canon, but this what I came up with when I was writing the history of House Ellerovyn

"In AC 700, old King Celedryl had died in Alfheim. There were two prominent contenders for the throne: Doriath and Charan, both former advisors of King Celedryl and both from the Erewan clan. Their own clan was very evenly divided between their supporters, but among other clans, Doriath was looked on more favourably because of his neutral attitude to the different clans. The result was a defeat for Charan.

At first it seemed that Charan would accept the decision. However, he bore a grudge not against Doriath, but against the other clans who had refused to support him. His pride couldn't stand to stay in Alfheim as a "might-have-been-King", so he started searching for a place to migrate. At last, he thought of the Highlands north of the Broken Lands. There were already a few elves (although not like the elves in Alfheim), who might need help fighting against humans in the area. Charan informed his closest friends and relatives about his decision to go there. He was greatly surprised when they all said that they would come with him. At the end nearly all of his Erewan supporters left with him."

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:00 pm

hihama wrote:This is not canon, but this what I came up with when I was writing the history of House Ellerovyn

"In AC 700, old King Celedryl had died in Alfheim. There were two prominent contenders for the throne: Doriath and Charan, both former advisors of King Celedryl and both from the Erewan clan. Their own clan was very evenly divided between their supporters, but among other clans, Doriath was looked on more favourably because of his neutral attitude to the different clans. The result was a defeat for Charan.

At first it seemed that Charan would accept the decision. However, he bore a grudge not against Doriath, but against the other clans who had refused to support him. His pride couldn't stand to stay in Alfheim as a "might-have-been-King", so he started searching for a place to migrate. At last, he thought of the Highlands north of the Broken Lands. There were already a few elves (although not like the elves in Alfheim), who might need help fighting against humans in the area. Charan informed his closest friends and relatives about his decision to go there. He was greatly surprised when they all said that they would come with him. At the end nearly all of his Erewan supporters left with him."

you rock brother... sounds good to me.. and better than my halfassed idea :lol:
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:04 pm

micky wrote:
hihama wrote:This is not canon, but this what I came up with when I was writing the history of House Ellerovyn
...

you rock brother... sounds good to me.. :lol:
I agree with micky, it sounds good to me to!
Last edited by Hugin on Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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micky
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:15 pm

Hugin wrote:
micky wrote: better than my halfassed idea
I agree with micky
:oops: :lol:
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by JohnBiles » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:17 pm

I like Hihama's idea too.

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:11 am

micky wrote:
Hugin wrote:
micky wrote: better than my halfassed idea
I agree with micky
:oops: :lol:
:lol: Fixed my post! 8-)

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by micky » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:15 am

:lol: 8-)
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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by Hugin » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:47 pm

I've added what we have agreed on into my notes with two small adjustments;
- The Belcadiz appear in Thyatis (Altan Tepes) instead of the Five Shires.
- The Two elven Migrations from the south join up on the east side of the Black Mountains (instead of in the Savage Coast proper) traveling across the northern fringes of the Great Waste (which isn't exactly the Great Waste yet).

Unless there are some other comments or additions that anyone would like to make, I think this topic is resolved (as far as our foundational aspects as concerned; there will be much more detailed and creative elements to explore later).

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Re: [GazH] Elven Migrations

Post by stanles » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:42 pm

John and Sheldon, what is the most up to date article?

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