[GazH] The Mordrigswerg

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[GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Hugin » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:48 pm

I figured I give this one its own thread. To start with I've copied the last post from The Immortal Connection.
Chimpman wrote:Not so sure here... but it all depends. It depends on what sources we want to include in GazH (which we've talked about before). Since dwarves are included in Blackmoor, it could be reasonable to assume that any immortals worshiped by the dwarves during Blackmoorian times would continue to be worshiped after the GRoF. This is very interesting, and something I'd love to explore. I'm not currently aware of any specific mention of dwarven gods in say the DA series, but it might be worth our while just to give these a look over. If there are references to immortals other than Kagyar, then this could be enough evidence to dispute the Gaz 6 claim that all outer world dwarves were modified. That's something I'd love to see, but not something I'm holding my breath about.
Oh, I'm not sure either! :D I was just running with some ideas as an example of what the possibilities may be like when we keep in mind the influences of the Immortals. In this case I was assuming no Dwarven Immortals simply because I'm not aware of any. I'm also in favour of considering the DA series as part of Mystaran canon so if there are insights in there I'd gladly use them. And as a side note, weren't there references to some Immortals that were possibly killed in the GRoF? If so, the Dwarven patron may have been one. But enough speculation, we should look for info.
I agree that this makes perfect sense. Unfortunately Gaz6 disputes this, and says in pretty strict terms that all dwarves on the surface after the BC 1800 modification event were located in Rockhome, and were modified. This includes even the dwarves who would later become the mordrigswerg.
Could be, but we are dealing with conflicting statements here to some degree. Gaz 6 says Kagyar took the "Blackmoor-era dwarf race" and that it was "these pre-historic dwarves" that he altered the memories of and modified. Gaz 7 gives extra info about the mordrigswerg that were unknown up to that point (and as you mentioned, it's full of hints connecting them to a Blackmoor era lifestyle). Then the HW book gave additional info that happened but was not told yet - the placing of half of these dwarves into the HW.

We'll have to decide if "Blackmoor-era dwarf race" means all Mystaran dwarves or if it means a specific race of dwarves and that it was all these dwarves that were taken. :?:
EDIT: And by the way, this is where my Shimmering Lands material deviates from canon... so if we stick with canon, and I want to make the Shimmering Lands compatible with GazH, I'm going to have to revisit this issue in that work.
Just to clarify, the Shimmering Lands material has the mordrigswerg as unmodified?
I had the thought this morning that the mordrigswerg are in fact modified dwarves but the hints found in Gaz 7 can be attributes to the Dark Elves. Here's my thinking; we have established that the Dark Elves were a small group of survivors of the GRoF from the Urzud region. They would have had full knowledge of the Blackmoor era and even the technology, but after having to leave nearly everything behind, much of the 'how to' was lost (just like how we have computers but if we had start over underground we wouldn't be able to reproduce them).

In desperation to get some of these technologies to work, and thus ensure their survival, the elves slowly accepted aid from foul beings that could empower their devices. This gave birth to their dark conjuring technomancy that drifted slowly away from the techno aspect. When these elves came in contact with the mordrigswerg they learned from each other and experienced a cultural exchange of sorts. So it was through these dark elves that the dwarves learned of Blackmoor, its technology, and history, giving us the results we find in Gaz 7. Note however that much of what they learned was twisted knowledge and not completely accurate.

Thoughts on the mordrigswerg?

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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Hugin » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:40 pm

Here's a comment from the other thread:
Chimpman wrote:Here's a thought, given that we know the radiance poisoning was dissipating in BC 1800, why would Kagyar even bother to modify the dwarven race? Was it purely foresight (since only 100 years later there was the LRoF)? Or was it because he knew that nearby there were dwarves who embraced Blackmoorian technology, and he couldn't take direct action against them? In that case he opted for a good defense, and modified his own followers to be resistant to the radiance.
I believe the reason for Kagyar's modifying the dwarves to become more resistant to radiance was as a safeguard against the possibility of the GRoF being repeated and completely annihilating the "creative results of mortal cultures". Even so, your thoughts could still work within that context.

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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Chimpman » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:44 pm

Thanks for breaking this out - it needs a thread of its own! I'll be back later to start posting actual references.
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Chimpman » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:33 pm

Hugin wrote:I had the thought this morning that the mordrigswerg are in fact modified dwarves but the hints found in Gaz 7 can be attributes to the Dark Elves. Here's my thinking; we have established that the Dark Elves were a small group of survivors of the GRoF from the Urzud region. They would have had full knowledge of the Blackmoor era and even the technology, but after having to leave nearly everything behind, much of the 'how to' was lost (just like how we have computers but if we had start over underground we wouldn't be able to reproduce them).
:D yup. In fact our thoughts are very similar on this subject.
Hugin wrote:In desperation to get some of these technologies to work, and thus ensure their survival, the elves slowly accepted aid from foul beings that could empower their devices. This gave birth to their dark conjuring technomancy that drifted slowly away from the techno aspect.
I really like this idea as well. In a sense the elves are replacing the radiance (which can corrupt the mind and body - as we see with the Mordrigswerg) with demonic forces (which can corrupt the soul). I really like the play between these two different cultures.
Hugin wrote:When these elves came in contact with the mordrigswerg they learned from each other and experienced a cultural exchange of sorts. So it was through these dark elves that the dwarves learned of Blackmoor, its technology, and history, giving us the results we find in Gaz 7. Note however that much of what they learned was twisted knowledge and not completely accurate.
Here is my take: We know that the world seems to be recovering from the GRoF starting somewhere around BC 2500 and progressively getting better as time goes by... however the dwarves are in such a bad shape in BC 1800, that Kagyar modifies them in order to prevent their extinction. My conclusion is that the dwarves are still using Blackmoorian technology/radiance even in this time! Kagyar modifies them and changes their memories in part to prevent them from using the radiance further (very similar to the SoO for the Nithians - in fact Kagyars memory modification may have been the model upon which the others based the SoO 1200 years later).

I see the Dark Elf - Mordrigswerg interaction in the following way: The Dark Elves have magic (fiendish) that will help the dwarves preserve their bodies... even in the face of continued radiance usage. The elves themselves abandoned such technologies right away and replaced them with fiendish magic in order to save themselves... but they never forgot about that technology. They only forgot how to create it. In return for dark magic that will help them preserve their bodies, the dwarves give Blackmoorain/radiance technologies back to the elves.

In short demonology flows from the elves to the dwarves and radiomancy flows from the dwarves to the elves.
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Hugin » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:46 pm

My impression of things (so it could be very wrong) is that the elves were far more accepting of Blackmoor's technology than the dwarves were. We have several colonies of advanced Blackmoorian elves that came from the other side of the world, but no record of technology using dwarves who have existed near Blackmoor from its birth (again, as far as I know).

That is what leads me to believe the technomancy came from elf to dwarf. However, it could be the dwarves that provided essential craftsmanship knowledge to create some of the necessary 'devices'.

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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Chimpman » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:39 pm

Hugin wrote:My impression of things (so it could be very wrong) is that the elves were far more accepting of Blackmoor's technology than the dwarves were. We have several colonies of advanced Blackmoorian elves that came from the other side of the world, but no record of technology using dwarves who have existed near Blackmoor from its birth (again, as far as I know).
In the case of the Kogolor I think you are right. That society (as presented in the HW) shows very little affinity toward Blackmoorian technology. Giulio and I talked about this in some other threads and he convinced me that the Kogolor were probably on Brun at the time of the GRoF - that would be LoZompatore's dwarven colony on his pre-GRoF maps.

For the Shimmering Lands at least though, I wanted to have the dwarves be the preservers of Blackmoorian tech, and the radiance, so the solution I settled upon was to have the Kogolor ancestors interact with the Dark Elves and acquire dark magics and practices, while also having dwarven survivors from the far reaches of Skothar be the preservers of Blackmoorian technomancy (dwarves were integrated into Blackmoorian society as well as having their own kingdoms). I don't see this role falling to the elves, not the Dark Elves at least, because as you say they have taken their Blackmorian knowledge and twisted it into something new. Possibly just as powerful, but surely different from pure Blackmoor tech.

There is another issue to consider - that of blame. Many sources state that the humans blamed the elves for the GRoF, while the elves in turn blamed the humans. My stance has been that the dwarves would side with the humans in this regard, so there may be some level of distrust (and possibly even hate) directed at the elves. Likewise if this is the case, the elves may lump the dwarves in there with the humans, also blaming them for the GRoF. In this case the elves need to get something out of the deal with the dwarves. They could of course be corrupting the dwarves just because that's what their immortal patrons want, however I like the idea that while the elves have something to tempt the dwarves with (deliverance form the Radiance Wasting), the dwarves also have something to tempt the elves with (perhaps access to the radiance?). This is the thinking that the Shimmering Lands is based on.
Hugin wrote:That is what leads me to believe the technomancy came from elf to dwarf. However, it could be the dwarves that provided essential craftsmanship knowledge to create some of the necessary 'devices'.
This is a very interesting idea. It could be that the elves actually relied upon Blackmoorians in order to rpovide them with required technology components. The dwarves post GRoF may begin to fill this role instead.
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Chimpman » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:55 pm

Here's a first pass at the timeline:

BC 3000
  • The current Known World is in its Ice Age. The Blackmoor world, in the far northeast, comes to an abrubt end: Some Blackmoor devices explode, causing the Great Rain of Fire, shifting the planet's axis. Blackmoor becomes the north pole and its civilization disappears. One of the devices is located in the Broken Lands (see module X1). The world slowly becomes habitable as ice recedes from the region.
    Gaz6 - pg 45
  • The Great Rain of Fire. Blackmoor culture obliterated; planet tilts on its axis, causing ice sheets to recede from D&D Game Known World.
    Gaz7 - pg 6
  • The Great Rain of Fire; Blackmoor culture obliterated; planet shifts its axis, freezing the Blackmoor continent and causing ice sheets to recede from regions of modern D&D world.
    Gaz8 - pg 8
BC 2500
  • Gnomes and dwarves enter the region and settle in hills and mountains as continental ice sheets recede.
    Gaz7 - pg 6
  • The gnomes apparently came to the Northlands from the Altan Tepe mountain range around 2500 BC They successfullt co-existed with the other humanoid races because the underground passages of the tunnel complexes were too small for the gnolls and trolls to enter. Relations with the Modrigswerg clans were distant, formal, and occasionally acrimonious by dwarven accounts, but some trade occurred, as evidenced by a multitude of ancient gnomish artifacts in the moulder dwarves' treasure troves.
    Gaz7 - pg 5
BC 2000
  • First human settlements in coastal and island lowlands.
    Gaz7 - pg 6
  • Bronze and Iron Age cultures in D&D game world.
    Gaz8 - pg 8
BC 1800
  • Kagyar the Artisan, an Immortal in the Sphere of Matter, and a patron of mortal arts and crafts, decides to create a new race which will prove resistant to annihilation like that which destroyed Blackmoor. From the ancient dwarven race, he constructs the "modern" dwarves, even more craft-oriented, and very resistant to radiation poisoning.
    Gaz6 - pg 45
  • The dwarvish race on the Known World is slowly, inevitably dying out. The Immortal called Kagyar the Artisan takes all remaining dwarves in the Known World. Half he transplants to the Hollow World, and half he reshapes into a new dwarven race. Now there are no remnants of the original dwarven race on the outer world. Some of the "new dwarves" are returned to the Northern Reaches, where the largest dwarf colonies had been, and eventually become the Modrigswerg clans; others are planted in the Rockhome region. Both groups are given false memories and believe that the Modrigswerg dwarves also originally lived in the Rockhome lands. In the Sylvan Realm, Ilsundal creates the first elvish tree of life and becomes an Immortal.
    HWOW - pg 12
  • The dwarves transplanted to the Hollow World, who mostly belong to the Kogolor clans, thrive in their new lands. They have been placed in eastern mountains just north of the great equatorial mountain range, fairly distant from other sentient races; they have occasional contact with the Neathar tribes to the north and west, but are largely left to their own devices.
    HWIW - pg 12
BC 1700
  • Giants, trolls, and gnolls are driven south into the Northern Reaches in successive waves of migration.
    Gaz7 - pg 6
BC 1500
  • The Nithian culture begins its rise in the lands east of Rockhome. They perform no exploration in the west and never encounter the dwarves.
    Gaz6 - pg 45
  • Modest Bronze Age human cultures in eastern lowlands. Sophisticated gnomish and dwarven cultures co-exist with primitive giantish clans in western uplands.
    Gaz7 - pg 6
BC 1400
  • Denwarf discovers the great cavern he calls Dengar and decides his time is done. He disappears into the lower caverns. The second dwarven king, Everast I, is crowned. The dwarves begin to build their greatest city within the Dengar cavern.
    Gaz6 - pg 45
BC 1300
  • (Approximate date) "The Early Days." The coming of halflings to Faerdinel and the building of Faerdinel Keep. Hin contact the Gentle Folk (failing elven race).
    Gaz8 - pg 8
BC 1190
  • Descendants of the Great Horde surface in Broken Lands. The Tribes meet again and discover the Rock of Oenkmar. End of the Quest for a Blue Knife. Truce proclaimed.
    Gaz10 - pg 4 DM's Book.


BC 1050
  • Odious experiments in Nithia turn Black Moon trolls into Gnolls. Gnolls rebel; they escape and later invade Karameikos. Nithian priests visit the Shamans of Oenkmar. Atzanteotl is increasingly offended.
    Gaz10 - pg 4 DM's Book.
BC 1000
  • In the time of the eleventh dwarven king, Blystar III, nonhuman tribal movements put marauding tribes of orcs and goblins against the dwarves. This is the same tribal movement wave that sends the gnolls into ancient Traldar lands in what is now modern Karameikis. Gaz6 - pg 45
  • Human cultures conquered and enslaved by Nithian Empire.
    Gaz7 - pg 6
  • Elves disappear. Orcs invade the land and enslave the hin. The Realm of Othrong is founded. To the east, gnoll tribes invade Traldar territory and a great war begins (perhaps displacing the orcs who came to the halfling lands).
    Gaz8 - pg 8
BC 965-964
  • The Rising. Halflings overthrow orc-king Raurgh at the battles of Hinskulls (965), Orcfall (965), and in the Spring Slaughter (964). Rule of the Elders established (964); kingdom of Hindon founded.
    Gaz8 - pg 8


BC 938
  • The Fall of Hindon; orcs burn the Elderhall. The Dark Years begin. Dwarves and orcs fight for control of the halfling land, in battles of Bloody Sands (936), Fireaxe Field (932), and the Hill of Cold Teeth (930).
    Gaz8 - pg 8
BC 929
  • Dwarven rule begins. Loktal Ironshield crowned King of the Glittering Land. Hin enslaved. Dwarven kingdom grows rich, attracting orc and human invasions that weaken the dwarves.
    Gaz8 - pg 8
Last edited by Chimpman on Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Chimpman » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:22 pm

First question, are there any specific dates in Gaz6 or 7 that put dates on when the Mordrigswerg tribes leave Rockhome?

Possible discrepancy/error?
BC 1500: The Nithian culture begins its rise in the lands east of Rockhome. They perform no exploration in the west and never encounter the dwarves.
Gaz6 - pg 45

BC 1050: Odious experiments in Nithia turn Black Moon trolls into Gnolls. Gnolls rebel; they escape and later invade Karameikos. Nithian priests visit the Shamans of Oenkmar. Atzanteotl is increasingly offended.
Gaz10 - pg 4 DM's Book.

BC 938: The Fall of Hindon; orcs burn the Elderhall. The Dark Years begin. Dwarves and orcs fight for control of the halfling land, in battles of Bloody Sands (936), Fireaxe Field (932), and the Hill of Cold Teeth (930).
Gaz8 - pg 8

BC 929: Dwarven rule begins. Loktal Ironshield crowned King of the Glittering Land. Hin enslaved. Dwarven kingdom grows rich, attracting orc and human invasions that weaken the dwarves.
Gaz8 - pg 8

The first event (BC 1500) is the one that I'd dispute. Based on Gaz 10, the Nithians did explore west, since they visit shamans in Oenkmar. They also colonized portions of the SC (also west). Also around the same time they are doing this, dwarves are conquering a kingdom to the south (a kingdom neighboring the Nithina Traldar colony, and through which Nithinas would have to travel to visit Oenkmar).

I find it unlikely that dwarves and Nithians never met. The statement might be true for BC 1500, but I find it highly unlikely for the BC 1000 time period.

Also I'm thinking that Loktal's Glittering Land is a kingdom of Rockhome dwarves, and not of Mordrigswerg. If I had to guess I'd put the exodus of the Modrigswerg sometime before that... possibly in the BC 1800 to BC 1500 range.
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Hugin » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:42 pm

Chimpman wrote:I find it unlikely that dwarves and Nithians never met. The statement might be true for BC 1500, but I find it highly unlikely for the BC 1000 time period.
Ya, this is a little unlikely. What if it means that the Nithians never encountered dwarves in Rockhome because they never entered it? They may have encountered dwarves outside their homeland but steered clear of those mountains. I don't see the Nithians as particularly adapt in mountainous terrain so they'd tend to go around them if possible or use known passes through narrower ranges.
Also I'm thinking that Loktal's Glittering Land is a kingdom of Rockhome dwarves, and not of Mordrigswerg. If I had to guess I'd put the exodus of the Modrigswerg sometime before that... possibly in the BC 1800 to BC 1500 range.
I've always thought that it was a Rockhome kingdom so that seems right to me.

As for the exodus of the Mordrigswerg, those dates seem right. Although we haven't exactly nailed down what happened around 1800 BC to the dwarves, we know something important happened.

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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Scaevola » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:42 pm

Hollow World DM Book:

BC 1'800: The Dwarvish race on the Known World is slowly, inevitably dying out. The Immortal called Kagyar takes all remaining dwarves in the Known World. Half he transplants to the HW and half he reshapes into a new dwarven race. Now there are no remnants of the original dwarven race on the outer world. Some of the "new dwarves" are returned to the Northern Reaches, where the largest dwarf colonies ad benen, and eventually become the Modrigswerg clans; others are planted in the Rockhome region. Both groups are given false memories and believe that the Modrigswerg dwarves also originally lived in the Rockhome lands.
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Scaevola » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:44 pm

Hey you keep forgetting MY work. I HAVE NAILED DOWN EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED :mrgreen:
Vaults of Pandius wrote: Dwarves of the Second Age

At the time of the Rain of Fire, all dwarven colonies near Blackmoor were immediately destroyed.(1) According to the few remained chronicles, for years the dust clouds that were raised shaded the sun and made the temperature drop. The dust brought skin-affecting diseases and cancer, that fell upon the Dwarves and their neighbours. In order to flee from sure death, Dwarves begun to build homes underground, and thus developed their first skills in mining and underground engineering too.

In those years, Rockhome's climate was beginning to change toward ice-age: the mountains were always covered with ice and the dwarven agricultural skills were failing. Dwarves lost gradually contact with their neighbours, human and humanoid races became extinct, disappeared or fled from the Known World. Little use to the Dwarves were the friendship they matured with another race, the Gnomes, around 2900 BC. Gnomes are believed to be related to Dwarves, and moreover both races revered the Immortals Kagyar (whom the Gnomes also call Karl) and Garalin (whom Gnomes call Garl or Garal).

In the end, after wars for survival had wiped out all the last traces of culture, only Dwarves remained, in the regions near Rockhome, apart from the Gnomes, who were settled in the area now known as Northern Reaches.

The diseases continued to harass the dwarven race: even if the climate, around 2500 BC, had slowly begun to revert to normal, most children were stillborn, or bore deformities, and many Dwarves were born sterile. Around 2000 BC, only some ten-thousand Dwarves were present, and the race was facing the risk of total annihilation, of extinction. Most knowledge of their past had disappeared with their past greatness; in a desperate move to avoid ultimate oblivion, clinching to their art and their existence as the testimony of a race condemned to death, the Dwarves begun to compile extremely precise and definite genealogies of their families and clans, descriptions of their activities and history, while living their desperate lives. However, one of the six surviving Dwarven Clans, the Hrukats, got in touch with the Dark Elves.

The Dark Elves had been enemies of the Dwarves in the past. They were servitors of the Father of Demons, and lived north of Rockhome. The Hrukats Clan was in charge of the fortresses in the north that had been built to repel the Dark Elves in the past. The Hrukats were proud and noble, and had always defeated the enemies of the dwarven race, defending the other Clans from the threats in the north. After the defeat of the Dark Elves, the Hrukats had remained to guard the passes of the north, waiting for an enemy that for a long time didn't show again.

Four centuries after the last battle, the Dark Elves returned. After long years of decadence and desolation, the Hrukats had mostly forgotten about them and their adoration of the Father of Demons. So the Dark Elves pretended to offer a truce and an aid to the Hrukats. Although the Hrukats King expelled the Dark Elves, he secretly arranged to have some meetings to discuss the matter.

The Father of Demons was an obscure divinity. According to the ancient dwarven mythology, he had fathered some of the most foul of creatures: Garm, the Devourer of the Sun; the Midgardwurm, a monstrous demonic snake; and Fenris the Wolf. Later on, the Vikings would identify the Father of Demons with Loki, although currently the dwarven clerics suggest that the Father of Demons was none other than Orcus.

The Dark Elves told their necromantic arts to the Hrukats, promising the King that these arts would slow and prevent the decline of his people. The King and his counsellors and closer relatives became thus, secretly, powerful necromancers. In the beginning, they used their spells to halt and then erase the diseases from the population: but Evil always corrupts who uses its powers, and in the end the Hrukats leaders became tainted by Evil, isolating the Clan from their brethren in the south.

The dark arts tainted the heart and should of the dwarven necromancers, madness spread and the cult of the Father of Demons spread too, openly. Most of the population, having been denied any contact with the other Dwarves, forced to live always in the depths of the earth, ruled by necromancers, became apathetic and indifferent, while instigators at the service of the Dark Elves spoke against Kagyar and Garalin, and told the Dwarves that their patrons were to be blamed for their condition, as they had forgotten their race and left them to suffer in the claws of Evil. Around 1900 BC, the southern Dwarves begun to see clearly what was happening, and started to plan a way to expel all Hrukats from Rockhome (2). However, given the necromantic arts of their rulers, that had halted diseases and sterility, the Hrukats counted the same number as all the other clans together.(3) Called Morkwarf ("dark dwarves") by their own brethren, the most impious among the Hrukats rulers planned an attack against their own race, allied with the Dark Elves, with whom they forged five cursed weapons, each built appositely to be used against each remaining dwarven Clan.

A group of dissident Hrukats were able to discover the plot and managed to convince the other Dwarves that something dangerous was happening and that they had to move before the Morkwarf did. The Dwarves held a Council (1812 BC). Here they decided to attack immediately, before the Hrukats were ready, hoping in a spontaneous revolt among the Hrukats population. However, the intransigent nature of the dwarven race, and the malice spread by the followers of the Dark Elves (whose purpose was to destroy the whole dwarven race, like the Father of Demons wanted), had caused most of the population to actually hate and despise their southern cousins because they believed that they had been indifferent to their fate before, and now only desired to conquer and destroy them, blaming the whole Hrukats Clan for what was just the responsibility of their rulers (and of their gods, moreover).

The dwarven attack was extremely hard. The five Clans strangled the Hrukats in a long siege, that went on for six years. The Hrukats were suddenly abandoned by their allies, the Dark Elves, and the Morkwarf had to crush internal revolts in blood-bathes. In the end, the Dark Elves had nearly obtained their goal, as the dwarven population had nearly halved itself with the long and bloody, cruel, war, and the race was near extinction. Desperate, the Necromancer-King of the Hrukats surrendered (1806 BC). (4)

Hate between the two dwarven factions was at its peak. Both had suffered terrible hardships; the life of Dwarves in the last thousand years had just been suffering and desperation. Almost bursting in tears, the Morkwarf-King of the Hrukats, the son of the Dwarf who had allied himself with the Dark Elves, shouted his wrath against the southern Dwarves, that he considered simply put jealous of the achievements of his necromantic comrades: they had relieved the Hrukats from the curse and disease of Blackmoor, from sterility, and to do so they hadn't hesitated to use any means. Crippled, suffering and debilitated because of the dwarven race disease, the general of the dwarven army, Commander Tor, showed his plagues and his sore body to the bounded Morkwarf and proclaimed: "In no way shall the Dwarven race be consumed and tormented by the Disease of the Soul, even when this shall mean be consumed and tormented by the Disease of the Body! So, all Dwarves who stipulated the insane alliance with the Forces of Evil and the Dark Elves and the Father of Demons will not be Dwarves anymore! And their name will be removed from the Clans Chronicles. The Hrukats Clan is dead, it doesn't exist anymore. But you surrendered, so we will leave your people to leave our land. However, you and your batmen are sentenced to death, in the name of Kagyar and Garalin."

So the survivors of the Hrukats Clan left Rockhome and moved, in shame, east to the mountains at the border between Rockhome and the lands of the Gnomes.

The pride of the Dwarves of the five Clans moved the heart of Kagyar the Artisan, the Immortal who had always loved the Dwarves. Kagyar has never wanted to interfere with the lives of mortals: he is a respectful divinity, who wants to leave mortals free to choose and live their lives, according to their laws, and not as pawns of the Immortals. But in that time, the only time in the history of Mystara, Kagyar stepped in and acted, saving the Dwarves. In 1800 BC he sent them Denwarf, a Dwarf with great powers, that would guide them and save them from death. Denwarf was the First Cleric of the Dwarves. (5) He cured the Dwarves of their diseases and brought to them the secrets of the earth and fire that Kagyar and Garalin themselves had taught him. (6)

DM NOTES:

(1) At this time there were approximately 2 millions of Dwarves.
(2) This is, again, a false memory provided by Kagyar. The ancestral lands of the Dwarves were the Northern Reaches, and most Dwarves lived on the eastern side of the Rockhome/Vestland border mountains.
(3) At this time, there were about 30'000 Dwarves, 13'000 of which belonged to the Hrukats Clan.
(4) At this time, there were about 8'000 Dwarves, 3'000 of which belonged to the Hrukats Clan. In fact, not all Dwarves that "disappeared" had died in the war; a group of 4'000 southern Dwarves had been preserved in stasis by Kagyar and Garalin and put to sleep in the caves of Rockhome, while the two Immortals were discussing with Ka and the Hollow World Council how to move them to the Hollow World to become the Kogolor Dwarves.
(5) This could be a "false memory" of the Dwarves. Anyway, being Kagyar and Garalin so aloof and silent for so many years before, this could be a possibility to explain it. Kagyar was so "non-interfering" (à la Benekander) that he didn't even provide spells to his worshippers!
(6) At this point, there should be about 5'000 Dwarves. According to GAZ6, the original Dwarves were 500, but they are way too few, in my opinion, to rise in 400 years to the meteoritic number of 125'000 Dwarves...
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Chimpman » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:44 pm

That's the one! Thanks Giulio!
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Scaevola » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:51 pm

This "dwarven history" is written by the perspective of dwarven scholars, and the DM notes are there to provide "actual facts". Both dwarven perspective and DM's "true history" should now be adapted to the Shimmering Lands entries written by John. I think they are highly compatible, with not-too-much effort.
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Hugin » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:51 pm

Scaevola wrote:Hey you keep forgetting MY work. I HAVE NAILED DOWN EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED :mrgreen:
Ya, we've just been exploring other canon references to see if the sum total gives a larger picture than any one single canon source gives.

For instance, the Hollow World book says the Mordrigswerg were placed, while gaz 7 suggests they moved in. However, I'm thinking those reports of Mordrigswerg "arriving" may simply have been those dwarves moving around and within the same region and the first time they were actually seen moving around was interpreted as them arriving ("hey, haven't seen folks before, must be just arriving").

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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Hugin » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:53 pm

Scaevola wrote:This "dwarven history" is written by the perspective of dwarven scholars, and the DM notes are there to provide "actual facts". Both dwarven perspective and DM's "true history" should now be adapted to the Shimmering Lands entries written by John. I think they are highly compatible, with not-too-much effort.
Agreed. Although I haven't delved head-long into the details of the Shimmering Lands so I hope that's the case.

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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Scaevola » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:55 pm

Hugin wrote:
Scaevola wrote:This "dwarven history" is written by the perspective of dwarven scholars, and the DM notes are there to provide "actual facts". Both dwarven perspective and DM's "true history" should now be adapted to the Shimmering Lands entries written by John. I think they are highly compatible, with not-too-much effort.
Agreed. Although I haven't delved head-long into the details of the Shimmering Lands so I hope that's the case.
Yeah, I think so. My history can easily be tweaked, especially since I wrote it from dwarven scholars' perspective, and they have false memories anyway :mrgreen:
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Chimpman » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:59 pm

Hugin wrote:
Chimpman wrote:I find it unlikely that dwarves and Nithians never met. The statement might be true for BC 1500, but I find it highly unlikely for the BC 1000 time period.
Ya, this is a little unlikely. What if it means that the Nithians never encountered dwarves in Rockhome because they never entered it? They may have encountered dwarves outside their homeland but steered clear of those mountains. I don't see the Nithians as particularly adapt in mountainous terrain so they'd tend to go around them if possible or use known passes through narrower ranges.
I like this explanation. I get the feeling that the original intention of that statement was to insure that there were no Nithian artifacts or ruins found within the borders of Rockhome. I'm good with that. Your clarification allows dwarves and Nithians to "meet" yet still holds true to the original intention of the statement (if that's indeed what it was).
The dwarvish race on the Known World is slowly, inevitably dying out. The Immortal called Kagyar the Artisan takes all remaining dwarves in the Known World. Half he transplants to the Hollow World, and half he reshapes into a new dwarven race. Now there are no remnants of the original dwarven race on the outer world. Some of the "new dwarves" are returned to the Northern Reaches, where the largest dwarf colonies had been, and eventually become the Modrigswerg clans; others are planted in the Rockhome region. Both groups are given false memories and believe that the Modrigswerg dwarves also originally lived in the Rockhome lands. In the Sylvan Realm, Ilsundal creates the first elvish tree of life and becomes an Immortal.
HWOW - pg 12
There's actually quite a bit of information that can be teased out of this paragraph. The largest dwarven colonies pre BC 1800 were in the Northern Reaches, not in Rockhome. Placing the Mordrigswerg back there gives them access to any advancements that dwarven culture had made up to that point, while placing the others in Rockhome basically sets them back in the stone ages. This could be one reason that the Mordrigswerg are as "twisted" and as "crazy" as they currently are. Perhaps those Norther Reaches settlements still had access to what Kagyar determined were forbidden Blackmoorian technologies. The Mordrigswerg basically continued from where they left off, while the Rockhomers had to work to build up a brand new nation... something that was more to Kagyar's liking.

Just some thoughts.
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Chimpman » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:00 pm

Scaevola wrote:This "dwarven history" is written by the perspective of dwarven scholars, and the DM notes are there to provide "actual facts". Both dwarven perspective and DM's "true history" should now be adapted to the Shimmering Lands entries written by John. I think they are highly compatible, with not-too-much effort.
It's going to take some effort, but not too much, yes. I've basically been waiting to nail down this effort, so I can bring the rest of my work in line ;).
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Chimpman » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:03 pm

Hugin wrote:
Scaevola wrote:This "dwarven history" is written by the perspective of dwarven scholars, and the DM notes are there to provide "actual facts". Both dwarven perspective and DM's "true history" should now be adapted to the Shimmering Lands entries written by John. I think they are highly compatible, with not-too-much effort.
Agreed. Although I haven't delved head-long into the details of the Shimmering Lands so I hope that's the case.
The main deviation (at least in my own thinking) is that I've got the Mordrigswerg as being unmodified dwarves. I've done this simply to try and explain why they are twisted and crazy, while normal Rockhome dwarves aren't. I think I may have stumbled onto another (canon) solution that works just as well though (see previous post).
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Hugin » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:23 pm

Chimpman wrote:The main deviation (at least in my own thinking) is that I've got the Mordrigswerg as being unmodified dwarves. I've done this simply to try and explain why they are twisted and crazy, while normal Rockhome dwarves aren't. I think I may have stumbled onto another (canon) solution that works just as well though (see previous post).
Sounds like it, and don't forget that their memories were altered as well, which means that although they had access to these Blackmoorian devices, the knowledge of them wasn't there any more. This provides for the several hints in Gaz 7 regarding technologies. I like it!

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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Seer of Yhog » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:50 pm

I imagine trying to figure out those old Blackmoorian devices (with technomantic elements) would drive the non-magical modern dwarves insane.
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Chimpman » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:06 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:I imagine trying to figure out those old Blackmoorian devices (with technomantic elements) would drive the non-magical modern dwarves insane.
You know... this might be a really good explanation for why Kagyar modified the mordrigswerg at all. Making them more resistant to magic (and less able to manipulate magical energies themselves) might have been a good way of removing some of the more powerful Blackmoorian technomantic devices from their clutches. They would still possess the devices (since they are replaced in their ancestral lands after modification), but wouldn't be able to fully utilize them anymore.

I'm sure using this reasoning that Kagyar would have been able to convince other immortals that all dwarves on the surface be modified (and not just his followers). This line of reasoning actually solves many problems that I have with current dwarven history.
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Hugin » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:29 pm

Chimpman wrote:You know... this might be a really good explanation for why Kagyar modified the mordrigswerg at all. Making them more resistant to magic (and less able to manipulate magical energies themselves) might have been a good way of removing some of the more powerful Blackmoorian technomantic devices from their clutches. They would still possess the devices (since they are replaced in their ancestral lands after modification), but wouldn't be able to fully utilize them anymore.
Ya, I like it. It's yet another reason for modifying them. Unfortunately, the dark elves were able to come and give them a bit of a hand. :twisted:

[edit] I'll be gone for the whole weekend (yet again) this time to the in-laws for Thanksgiving (the Canadian one ;) ) so I'll not likely got the chance to respond right away, but any comments regarding the GazH project are more than welcome. [/edit]

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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Scaevola » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:28 am

Hmm... I always thought that the Dark Elves has interfered EARLIER with the Modrigswerg... BEFORE 1800 BC, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to have the Modrigswerg in Northern Reaches and already banished. Otherwise, we should have the Modrigswerg BANISHED first and DEALING WITH DARK ELVES afterwards. And this seems too much to me :mrgreen:
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Re: [GazH] The Mordrigswerg

Post by Chimpman » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:47 am

Scaevola wrote:Hmm... I always thought that the Dark Elves has interfered EARLIER with the Modrigswerg... BEFORE 1800 BC, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to have the Modrigswerg in Northern Reaches and already banished. Otherwise, we should have the Modrigswerg BANISHED first and DEALING WITH DARK ELVES afterwards. And this seems too much to me :mrgreen:
It seems like there is already a break before BC 1800, otherwise why would Kagyar split the dwarves into two groups after having modified them? Having the early dwarves (or at least a portion of them) have dealings with the Dark Elves before BC 1800 makes sense to me (in fact my Shimmering Lands setting assumes this already).

If we follow the line of reasoning that the Dark Elves (and some early dwarves) turned to dark powers in order to preserve their cultures and their lives from the dreaded radiance poisoning, then it makes sense to have this interaction take place as early as possible.
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