Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

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Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby Havard » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:53 pm

I know I have some document somewhere on my computer which identifies which years in the Mystara timeline would correspond to which in other TSR settings, but I can't find it right now. Does anyone know anything about how the different timelines might correspond?

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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby eldersphinx » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:26 pm

The closest thing I've found to this sort of timeline on the Internet is the Temporal Chronology of the Primes, which appears to have relied mostly on the Ravenloft timeline and dates for when Darklords and Domains get pulled out of other campaign worlds and into the Mists to establish concurrence points. Based on this, I would probably look at what we know of Meredoth and his domain of Nebligtode.
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:35 pm

Paul Westermeyer's Spelljammer timeline is more thoughtful, and looks at a wider variety of sources. The Ravenloft references generally have to be disregarded, I think, since the mists of Ravenloft can reach through time as well as planar boundaries.

Brian R. James' Temporal Chronology is kind of busted in places. Most notably in my mind, it has Vecna and Kas drawn into Ravenloft in 599 CY; since Vecna escapes from Ravenloft in 591 CY, this is impossible (unless he somehow used the Mists to travel back in time, but see the following sentence). Vecna should have been drawn into Ravenloft around 581 CY, at the conclusion of Vecna Lives! Again, this is a result of Brian R. James relying on Ravenloft sources that I think have to be disregarded in light of other sources. And in fairness, Die Vecna Die!, which did a lot to synchronize Ravenloft, Planescape, and Greyhawk, didn't come out until well after he had written that. Also, Tales From the Infinite Staircase crossed over with For Duty and Deity, which synchronizes the year 130 of Factol Hashkar's reign in Sigil with 1370 DR on Toril.

Where there are no official crossover dates (and I don't think there were with regard to Mystara and the other D&D worlds - there are crossovers, but not ones that have been given dates), I go by publication date. Joshuan's Almanac (part of a series that updated one game year for every real year) was published in 1995, and corresponded to 1013 AC. The Factol's Manifesto for Planescape was also published in 1995 (and Planescape books also maintained one game year/real year while that line lasted), and corresponded to 127 in Hashkar's reign, which was 587 CY on Oerth and 1367 DR on Toril. So I think 1013 = 127 = 587 = 1367, though I can't call it official since it isn't explicit.

That said, if you can arrive at another date through Meredoth, that isn't more arbitrary than the "publishing date" method, so it's as valid as anything else.

It's also important to note the differences in year length. Mystara's year is only 336 days, while Oerth's year is 364 days, and Earth, Toril, and Krynn all have 365.25 day years. The length of a year in Sigil is unknown, though the fan-made calendar I use gives it 364 days.
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby agathokles » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:49 pm

Planescape gives esplicit synchronization points. Ravenloft might not be that useful, but AFAIR John Mangrum's Ravenloft timeline is quite good.

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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby Havard » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:57 pm

I was pretty sure I had seem some document or XL sheet done by someone from the Italian Mystara Boards...?

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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:40 pm

As far as fan-created sources go, the Nocturnal Sea Gazetteer for Ravenloft claims that when Nebligtode was created, a day of "dead magic" was incorporated into it in emulation of Mystara, which would suggest that Meredoth must have departed Mystara after the events of Wrath of the Immortals. I'd ignore that, personally, and either not give Nebligtode a day of dead magic, or have this day only come into being later, at the same time (whatever time it is) as it comes into being on Mystara (the realm somehow still tied to the fate of Meredoth's homeworld). For what it's worth, though, that book gives Nebligtode's formation as 635 in the Barovian calendar, and this timeline says Meredoth's colony "failed" (and thus, he was drawn into the Demiplane of Dread) in 921 AC. That would, using Brian R. James' timeline, mean that the "present day" in the Ravenloft campaign is equivalent to 1038 AC.

Havard had Farrow return from Sigil in 1010 AC. Farrow first appeared in Uncaged: Faces of Sigil, which was set in 128 in Hashkar's reign, so 1010 AC would have to be later than that for Havard's timeframe to work (note that no spell can draw a person in Sigil "instantly" to an other world; Farrow would have to use a portal to return to Mystara - also, I think a lot of Planescape fans certainly would miss him).

I have a copy of the Italian timeline chart that Havard is talking about. It has 1010 AC meshing with 127 Hashkar, citing The Planewalker's Handbook as its source. I don't see any concrete Mystaran dates in The Planewalker's Handbook, but it describes the Alphatian empire as "fallen," and thus must take place after Wrath of the Immortals. The Italian chart also seems to make a correspondence between 876/892 AC (as their date for Meredoth's departure, though I'm not sure where they're getting that from) and 635 BY (as their date for Meredoth's arrival in the Demiplane of Dread, which matches the Nocturnal Sea Gazetteer). I don't think the Italian correspondence is based on firm canon, but here's a copy of it.

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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:38 pm

Oh, I guess I was wrong about Krynn's years. As the Italian timeline chart states, Krynn's year is 336 days long, just like Mystara's. The 3rd edition Dragonlance Campaign Setting says there are seven days in a week, four weeks in a month, and twelve months in a year. I was confused by the fact that they give correspondences between Krynnish months and Earth months; I had assumed they must therefore be identical. Krynnspace gives a Krynnish year as 360 days, though, so there's a contradiction. If the Campaign Setting's description of the year is taken as a generalization rather than literally, I'd give each Krynnish month 30 days to match the Spelljammer information.

Paul Westermeyer's timeline explains other discrepancies between various attempts at synchronizing the various timelines better than I can.
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby Havard » Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:48 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:As far as fan-created sources go, the Nocturnal Sea Gazetteer for Ravenloft claims that when Nebligtode was created, a day of "dead magic" was incorporated into it in emulation of Mystara, which would suggest that Meredoth must have departed Mystara after the events of Wrath of the Immortals. I'd ignore that, personally, and either not give Nebligtode a day of dead magic, or have this day only come into being later, at the same time (whatever time it is) as it comes into being on Mystara (the realm somehow still tied to the fate of Meredoth's homeworld). For what it's worth, though, that book gives Nebligtode's formation as 635 in the Barovian calendar, and this timeline says Meredoth's colony "failed" (and thus, he was drawn into the Demiplane of Dread) in 921 AC. That would, using Brian R. James' timeline, mean that the "present day" in the Ravenloft campaign is equivalent to 1038 AC.


Interesting. I like what you are saying about making Meredoth be drawn to Ravenloft in AC 921. Its a bit surprising that the "present day" of RL would be so far into Mystara's future though. My idea was actually to have Meredoth return to Mystara in AC1010, but it looks like that's going to be complicated.

Havard had Farrow return from Sigil in 1010 AC. Farrow first appeared in Uncaged: Faces of Sigil, which was set in 128 in Hashkar's reign, so 1010 AC would have to be later than that for Havard's timeframe to work (note that no spell can draw a person in Sigil "instantly" to an other world; Farrow would have to use a portal to return to Mystara - also, I think a lot of Planescape fans certainly would miss him).


Well, that date can certainly be changed. What I am suggesting is that the spell that bannished is linked to Etienne, and that it ends when Etienne is sucked into the Radience (or whatever happens to him). Perhaps Farrow is only sucked back when he leaves Sigil? This could give us as much a delay as we might need. As for PS fans missing him, Mystara might not need to keep him permanently. We could perhaps borrow him for one storyline and then let him return again? My idea is that alot of people want to get their hands on Farrow when he returns to Mystara. Perhaps the PCs could be contacted by Farrow and eventually find a way to send him back to the planes so that he can be safe from his enemies on Mystara? My original idea was that Meredoth would be the one hunting Farrow. He would be looking for the Shadowelf to try to find out what happened to him and why he was sent to Ravenloft. However, I dont see that as working too well in light of the information above. OTOH, Farrow has many enemies on Mystara so it doesnt have to be Meredoth.

I have a copy of the Italian timeline chart that Havard is talking about. It has 1010 AC meshing with 127 Hashkar, citing The Planewalker's Handbook as its source. I don't see any concrete Mystaran dates in The Planewalker's Handbook, but it describes the Alphatian empire as "fallen," and thus must take place after Wrath of the Immortals. The Italian chart also seems to make a correspondence between 876/892 AC (as their date for Meredoth's departure, though I'm not sure where they're getting that from) and 635 BY (as their date for Meredoth's arrival in the Demiplane of Dread, which matches the Nocturnal Sea Gazetteer). I don't think the Italian correspondence is based on firm canon, but here's a copy of it.


Ah, excellent. That's the one I was looking for.

Hmmm...I am really uncertain of what to use as a basis here.

Does this mean that the 4th edition Forgotten Realms setting would correspond to AC1114? I am also interested in what would be happening on other worlds in the Blackmoor Era and the Nithian era....




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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:13 pm

Havard wrote:Interesting. I like what you are saying about making Meredoth be drawn to Ravenloft in AC 921. Its a bit surprising that the "present day" of RL would be so far into Mystara's future though. My idea was actually to have Meredoth return to Mystara in AC1010, but it looks like that's going to be complicated.


In theory, Ravenloft's mists could return Meredoth to the past. Maybe his domain starts experiencing days of dead magic in AC 1010, and that forms a "nexus" point between the demiplane and Mystara; when Meredoth leaves the Demiplane of Dread due to his magic going catastrophically awry during another dead magic day after 1038, he's automatically returned to this nexus point, and thus ends up in Mystara in 1010.

I also forgot to account for the fact that the Barovian calendar's years are supposed to be 365 days, which means there's about a month's difference every year from Mystara. That means my equivalencies are 9 years off; the "present day" should be 1047, then, not 1038.

Well, that date can certainly be changed. What I am suggesting is that the spell that banished is linked to Etienne, and that it ends when Etienne is sucked into the Radiance (or whatever happens to him). Perhaps Farrow is only sucked back when he leaves Sigil? This could give us as much a delay as we might need. As for PS fans missing him, Mystara might not need to keep him permanently. We could perhaps borrow him for one storyline and then let him return again?


Oh, well, for your campaign it doesn't matter if Planescape fans miss him or not, of course. I was just responding to your comment in your previous article. But sure; it could be that Etienne's disappearance allows Farrow to come home, which he eventually does, and later on Shemeshka the Marauder arranges to draw her favored agent back again (and perhaps a party of Mystaran player characters as well! Maybe she hires them to go find him, or Farrow hires them to protect him from her). There's no reason that I can think of why allowing Farrow to travel back and forth would be anything but good for a campaign.

Hmmm...I am really uncertain of what to use as a basis here.


I personally prefer 1013 = 127 = 587 = 1367, as above, though as Paul Westermeyer explained, there are discrepancies in canon which allow for alternative equivalencies. On Hallowed Ground gives a different Planescape-Forgotten Realms equivalency (which the Italian timeline chart uses), but that messes with the For Duty & Deity and Die Vecna Die! dates, and also with the Wizards Three dates in Dragon, so I ignore it. As for Ravenloft, the Mists can draw the PCs (or NPCs) into whatever time works best, so I don't think you really need to worry about synchronizing its timeline too much. My calculations above assume no time travel is happening, but that's not necessarily the case. Sigil's portals could theoretically reach into other times as well; that actually happens in Faction War, though that's a special case.

Does this mean that the 4th edition Forgotten Realms setting would correspond to AC1114?


Something like that. The present day in 4e FR is 1479 DR. I speculated that AC 1013 was 1367 DR. 112 years in the Realms are 121 Mystaran years (again, Mystaran years are shorter), so that's AC 1134, I think.

I am also interested in what would be happening on other worlds in the Blackmoor Era and the Nithian era....


Wow, the calendars are really out of sync back then. 5000 Torilian years are equivalent to 5435 Mystaran years, and 5000 Mystaran years are 4600 Torilian years if my math is correct. So if 1354 DR was 1000 AC, -3247 DR was equivalent to the period of DA1. That was the First Age of Calimshan, and the Nether Age in the Kingdom of Netheril, centuries before that kingdom built its mythallars and flying cities, but before the fall of the Empire of Imaskar. The Imaskari had brought slaves from a world that worshiped the Egyptian and Babylonian pantheons over thousand years before then (in -4370 DR); I assume that world was Laterre, where the d'Amberville family originated, though we don't know that for sure (if so, it would have happened 4,444 BC in Laterre's time). Those slaves would rebel in -2488 DR, around 800 years later, leading to the destruction of Imaskar and the creation of the Raurin Desert, so Imaskar was going strong and a planar power to be reckoned with throughout most of the Blackmoor era. The Great Rain of Fire happens around two centuries after Imaskar's destruction.

4600 years in the Realms is 4615 years on Oerth, I think. So Uther's time is -4032 CY on Oerth. That was 1483 SD in the timeline of the ancient Suloise, centuries after the Eight-House War when the Suel created the race of skulks with magic, but a thousand years before the creation of the Orbs of Dragonkind. The Baklunish empire wouldn't be founded for another two thousand years (the ancestors of the Baklunish people living far to the west in this era). Vecna wouldn't be born for another 2600 years. Nothing in particular was happening in the Flanaess; the subcontinent was likely populated solely by nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes.

Krynn is easier, if we assume that Krynnish years and Mystaran years are identical. There's not much specifics on the Krynnish timeline 5000 years in the past. It was the Time of Light in the Age of Dreams, about 358 years (or whatever) after the creation of the gnomes, but around 300 years before the release of the Greygem created the kender, goblins, chimeras, centaurs, trolls, griffins, dwarves, minotaurs, and other races born from that chaotic time. So the only races around back then would have been dragons, humans, elves, ogres, gnomes, lizardfolk, and mundane animals.

Speaking of Laterre, 4000 BC on Mystara was 3342 BC on Laterre (I think), which this guy thinks might have been the time of the Great Flood in the Old Testament. Laterre is not a "young Earth," since it implicitly contains the much more ancient Clark Ashton Smith, Robert E. Howard, and H.P. Lovecraft timelines, but there still might have been some sort of catastrophic deluge in the Middle East in that period, possibly due to the interference of the elder gods or wicked sorcerers or some such.

The Nithian empire fell in 500 BC, 1500 years before the Gazetteer series. That's 505,400 days, which corresponds to 1379 years on Toril. That puts us back to the age of the founding of the DaleReckoning calendar, a few years before the erection of the Standing Stone by the elves and Dalesmen.

The fall of Nithia was equivalent to 1388 years ago on Oerth. That was 114 years before the destruction of the similarly vile (and similar in other ways) Kingdom of Sulm in what is now Oerth's Bright Desert, and around 400 years before the Great Migrations and the Twin Cataclysms changed the face of the planet. Vecna ruled much of the western Flanaess, and the Suel and Baklunish empires were at their heights of sophistication.

1142 PC in Krynn was the age of the human kingdoms of Sancrith, Solamnia, and Istar. Dragons still exist on the world, as they won't be banished by Huma (or agree to leave, whatever) for another 124 years. Istar won't reach its later dominance for another 142 years. The Silvanesti have mostly retreated to their own kingdom, and say little to others.

And that was about 100 BC in Laterre's timeline. Julius Caesar was born.

We know basically nothing of what was happening in Sigil during either of these eras. Few or none of the present-day factions existed. The city itself existed, and was ruled by the Lady of Pain, but it's hard to give specifics. Presumedly Istarians, Solamnians, Nithians, Imaskari, and Blackmoorians frequented the city during their various eras. The planes were much the same then as they are now.
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby LoZompatore » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:06 pm

The Excel spreadsheet was compiled by me some years ago with a lot of help from other Italian Message Board members (Agathokles, Zendrolion and DM especially). We tried to use only official information and logical assumptions in compiling the table but we found that some discretion was unavoidable...

Unluckily I never translated the original post in English, but I have a copy of it: if you are interested I can translate the most significant sections and attach them there ;)

With regard to the table:

- dates in BROWN (Chaos/Cyric and Vecna entries) are official and assumed as exact correspondence between timelines;
- dates in YELLOW are our assumptions (even if for the battle of Mt Deismaar it is known from official sources that 128 PS corresponds with a date around 1500 HC in Birthright setting);
- dates in RED (SJ novels into the void and Kalidny entries) are official correspondences we believed to be likely wrong, as they do not match with other official info/extrapolations and the like;
- dates in PALE BLUE are extrapolated from other correspondences taken from the table and based on the length of the year for the various settings (assuming a day has the same duration on every settings: this should be true just for the sake of spells duration and other time-related effects); notice that if you go back (or forward) in time of 1000 years in Mystara you moved back (or forward) of 1000 years on Krynn but only 920 years on Toril, 923 years on Oerth, 896 years on Athas and 988 Years on Birthright game world. These are quite perceptible differences. ;)

In managing Ravenloft correspondences we believed that the mists which sourround this setting make the exact matching of dates a tricky issue, as it could be possible for a cross-setting traveller to be deployed in times which do not exactly follow the other compared timelines. Assuming the incongruences in timelines as a setting-related effect induced by the magical mists, we compared the various correspondences related to Ravenloft and tried to estimate the temporal shift induced on the traveller (last three columns on the right of the table). It seems that the average shift is some +/- 10 years with respect of the correct correspondence (the only notable exception being the Kalidnay entry which we assumed to be wrong anyway).
The only Ravenloft correspndence we assumed to be utterly correct is the Vecna entry: being Vecna a god we thought that its travel among Planescape, Greyhawk and Ravenloft settings was immune to the temporal-shifting effects of Ravenloft's mists.

The overall conversion we suggested is in the bottom boxed line of the table, that is:

Mystara: 1010 AC =
Planescape: 127 HA
Greyhawk: 587 CY
Dragonlance: 384 AC
Forgotten Realms: 1371 AR
Kara Tur: 2631 SC
Al Qadim: 588
Spelljammer: 862 TU
Birthright: 1523 HC
Dark Sun: 10 FY
Ravenloft: any year between 742 BY and 751 BY
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby ripvanwormer » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:01 am

The table actually says 1010 AC = 127 Hashkar, which is reasonable (from The Planewalker's Handbook, we know it has to be after 1010 AC because Alphatia is fallen).
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby LoZompatore » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:17 am

Sorry, typing error in my last post :P
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby Havard » Wed May 19, 2010 8:48 pm

Some interesting(?) conclusions from this:


AC1014/ CY 591 Living Greyhawk Campaign

AC1020/ CY 597 Events of Expedition to Castle Greyhawk

AC1020 On Mystara, Darokinian and Thyatian join forces to protect their interests. All-out war pits humans vs. orcs.

AC 1024 / DR 1385 : In Realmspace, the Goddess Mystra is killed and the Spellplague begins. In the following year, Toril is merged with Abeir.

AC 1034 /DR 1395: In Realmspace, the majority of the effects of the Spellplague have come to an end and most arcane magic has returned to normal.

AC 1047/ AC421: On Krynn the War of Souls takes place. Krynn is returned to its proper orbit.
Takhisis is killed and Paladine gives up his immortality

AC 1050 : On Mystara Ylaruam falls under the rule of Kin faction sultans. Its culture and economy flourishes, but its values decline, and there is a resurgence of traditional tribal enmities.

AC 1118/ DR 1479 : The situation in the Realmspace has seemingly stabilized. (4E Era begins)

1200 AC: On Mystara, the Second Great War with the Master of the Desert Nomads is unleashed upon the world.

AC 1421/ CY 998: On Greyhawk, Pluffet Smedger the Elder publishes his Glossography for the Guide to the World of Greyhawk at the Royal University of Rel Mord. In this era, magic is not a lost art, but apparently a fading one.

AC 2423 /CY 2000: On Greyhawk, society has been reshaped by the use of technlogy and magic, see the Greyhawk 2000 article for details.

This assumes that one year equals one year in all settings. I'm too lazy to take the alternatives into account.

*****

Some events I would have liked to include:

* Ravenloft merges with the Plane of Shadow and forms the Shadowfell
* The boundaries between the Inner Planes collapse, forming the Elemental Chaos

Did they advance the timeline for Athas?




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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby ripvanwormer » Thu May 20, 2010 1:36 am

1. I thought Krynn remained in its new solar system, rather than returning to Krynnspace.

2. While the Greyhawk 2000 article is explicitly set in 2000 CY, contextual clues within the article suggest it was actually meant to be set 1000 years before that, during the time of Pluffet Smedger. Notably, Duke Karl of the Duchy of Urnst and Countess Belissica of the County of Urnst are supposed to have married around 400 years before the "present day," of the Greyhawk 2000 setting, creating the United Counties of Urnst. But Duke Karl and Countess Belissica are characters that exist in regular, 576-597 Greyhawk. While it could refer to a different Karl and Belissica, I think it's more likely that the article used the year 2000 just to make it match with the real-life year of publication, 2000 AD, and the more natural place to put it is around CY 1000. That's more than enough time, in any case, for the technological development that the article describes. The additional thousand years, when nothing happens, doesn't add anything to the setting.

3. The creation of the Shadowfell and the Elemental Chaos happens at the time of the Spellplague in the Forgotten Realms setting. If you decide that all the worlds share a common Shadowfell and Elemental Chaos, it probably happens at the same time everywhere. The reasons given are very Realms-specific, though, and in my opinion kind of lame (Shar takes advantage of the chaos to merge the Plane of Shadow with the Negative Energy Plane, and Asmodeus hurls the Abyss into the Inner Planes, creating the Elemental Chaos. Other settings can do better, I'm sure).

4. Athas's timeline was advanced about 300 Athasian years in Dungeon Magazine #110, a number of years ago, as part of the 3e reboot of the setting.

5. 1150 AC is the time given for module X13, Crown of Ancient Glory.

6. This conversion table is pretty good.
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby night_druid » Thu May 20, 2010 1:41 am

ripvanwormer wrote:1. I thought Krynn remained in its new solar system, rather than returning to Krynnspace.


That's my understanding as well, although I'm not even sure if MW & TH consider Krynn to be, or ever was, inside a crystal sphere to begin with. ;)
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby ripvanwormer » Thu May 20, 2010 1:44 am

night_druid wrote:That's my understanding as well, although I'm not even sure if MW & TH consider Krynn to be, or ever was, inside a crystal sphere to begin with. ;)


They probably don't, although "Dome of Creation which surrounds all things" sounds a lot like a "crystal sphere" to me. I'm not much concerned with what Weis and Hickman think, though, unless I'm playing in a game where they're DMing.
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby night_druid » Thu May 20, 2010 2:01 am

ripvanwormer wrote:
night_druid wrote:That's my understanding as well, although I'm not even sure if MW & TH consider Krynn to be, or ever was, inside a crystal sphere to begin with. ;)


They probably don't, although "Dome of Creation which surrounds all things" sounds a lot like a "crystal sphere" to me. I'm not much concerned with what Weis and Hickman think, though, unless I'm playing in a game where they're DMing.


True. And really, it only matters if you're running a Spelljammer game in Krynnspace.
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby Havard » Thu May 20, 2010 8:32 am

ripvanwormer wrote:1. I thought Krynn remained in its new solar system, rather than returning to Krynnspace.


I used the information from Wikipedia. From the War of Souls, I also got the impression that it was more a matter of the Gods and the moons arriving at Kynn, but I guess it could be read either way.

2. While the Greyhawk 2000 article is explicitly set in 2000 CY, contextual clues within the article suggest it was actually meant to be set 1000 years before that, during the time of Pluffet Smedger. Notably, Duke Karl of the Duchy of Urnst and Countess Belissica of the County of Urnst are supposed to have married around 400 years before the "present day," of the Greyhawk 2000 setting, creating the United Counties of Urnst. But Duke Karl and Countess Belissica are characters that exist in regular, 576-597 Greyhawk. While it could refer to a different Karl and Belissica, I think it's more likely that the article used the year 2000 just to make it match with the real-life year of publication, 2000 AD, and the more natural place to put it is around CY 1000. That's more than enough time, in any case, for the technological development that the article describes. The additional thousand years, when nothing happens, doesn't add anything to the setting.


Interesting! Thanks for mentioning this. I will merge the two dates when I update the timeline.

3. The creation of the Shadowfell and the Elemental Chaos happens at the time of the Spellplague in the Forgotten Realms setting. If you decide that all the worlds share a common Shadowfell and Elemental Chaos, it probably happens at the same time everywhere. The reasons given are very Realms-specific, though, and in my opinion kind of lame (Shar takes advantage of the chaos to merge the Plane of Shadow with the Negative Energy Plane, and Asmodeus hurls the Abyss into the Inner Planes, creating the Elemental Chaos. Other settings can do better, I'm sure).


I also figured this was related to the Spellplague/Mystra's death. I have always felt that Mystara's planes should not be the same as those of the other settings (just like with Ebberon I guess?), but there is no reason why Mystara's planar structure also couldnt change over the years. I think 1025 AC would be a bit early for such dramatic upheavals on Mystara though...

4. Athas's timeline was advanced about 300 Athasian years in Dungeon Magazine #110, a number of years ago, as part of the 3e reboot of the setting.


So, its set in the year 300 or something? I have never seen any Dark Sun timeline extending beyond the year 10 or so online. Do you have any events significant enough to include here? I ahve the Dungeon Mag in question, but actually finding it could be a challenge... :D

5. 1150 AC is the time given for module X13, Crown of Ancient Glory.


Cool, I will include it. I don't know if the module can be played out at that time and make more sense, but it could be something like the legendary Crown of Sorona once again resurfacing, heralding a new golden age for the Northern Reaches?



Cool, I will check it out in more detail when I get home from work :)

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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby agathokles » Fri May 21, 2010 10:09 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:4. Athas's timeline was advanced about 300 Athasian years in Dungeon Magazine #110, a number of years ago, as part of the 3e reboot of the setting.


OTOH, 4e DS will be set in the original timeframe or in the immediate vicinity, and is not supposed to move forward.
The 3e reboot didn't go much further, BTW.

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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby ripvanwormer » Sat May 22, 2010 1:29 am

Havard wrote:I used the information from Wikipedia. From the War of Souls, I also got the impression that it was more a matter of the Gods and the moons arriving at Krynn, but I guess it could be read either way.


I think your impression is right.

I also figured this was related to the Spellplague/Mystra's death. I have always felt that Mystara's planes should not be the same as those of the other settings (just like with Eberron I guess?), but there is no reason why Mystara's planar structure also couldn't change over the years. I think 1025 AC would be a bit early for such dramatic upheavals on Mystara though...


I agree that The Plane Below was a good sourcebook, but I'm personally too emotionally attached to the old elemental planes (specifically the Planescape version) to make the switch. Most of the locations in The Plane Below would fit in the older planar structure, anyway.

The Riverweb from The Plane Below looks just like Entrem, the Sphere of Time plane in Wrath of the Immortals, and might be used as inspiration for that.

If you did really want to destroy the inner planar structure, a combination of things might be the cause: the war between the Immortals in Wrath might cause a lot of damage to the planar boundaries and awaken a horde of slumbering draedens, who could conceivably have the power to finish the job. The Old Ones might step in to change the structure of the multiverse if they deemed it necessary to preserve it, though this last option seems a little heavy-handed to me.

So, its set in the year 300 or something? I have never seen any Dark Sun timeline extending beyond the year 10 or so online. Do you have any events significant enough to include here? I have the Dungeon Mag in question, but actually finding it could be a challenge... :D


The date is given as the Year of Desert's Reverence in the 194th King's Age, and previous Dark Sun campaigns took place in the 190th King's Age. Each King's Age is 77 years long, and each year is 375 days (each day is 24 hours, the same as on Mystara and most other D&D worlds). It doesn't use the Free Year calendar you see in most online sources, because the campaign isn't Tyr-centric, and other settlements are unlikely to care about the year that King Kalak died (particularly because, although Tyr remained free, none of the other cities did). Free Year 1 was the Year of Priest's Defiance in the 190th King's Age, though, and I think that was the 13th year in the 190th King's Age. I think the Year of Desert's Reverence is the 48th year of the 194th Age, so it's something like Year 394 in the Free Year calendar. It's a difficult calendar to work with, honestly.
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby Big Mac » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:14 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Oh, I guess I was wrong about Krynn's years. As the Italian timeline chart states, Krynn's year is 336 days long, just like Mystara's. The 3rd edition Dragonlance Campaign Setting says there are seven days in a week, four weeks in a month, and twelve months in a year. I was confused by the fact that they give correspondences between Krynnish months and Earth months; I had assumed they must therefore be identical. Krynnspace gives a Krynnish year as 360 days, though, so there's a contradiction. If the Campaign Setting's description of the year is taken as a generalization rather than literally, I'd give each Krynnish month 30 days to match the Spelljammer information.


I think there are a number of (minor) issues with all three Spelljammer crossover books. Jean Rabe is a Dragonlance expert, so it is a bit strange that her canon would be tossed. Perhaps the fact that she got the orbits of Krynn's moons wrong* in SJR7 Krynnspace caused some sort of knock-on effect that made a 360 day year unworkable.

* = What Jean Rabe did with Krynn's moons makes "The Night of the Eye" impossible. Given a canon conflict, I will usually chose the one that doesn't break things (or the one that breaks the least number of things).

I know that 3e reverted to the moon movement from Dragonlance Adventures. I've skimmed through DLA, but could not find anything about the number of days in a year. Maybe someone on the 3e DLCS team decided to disregard Krynnspace (both SJR7 and the SJ crossover) totally**. Then again, I have heard that it was a rush job, with MWP being forced to create the manuscript for free and then pass it over to WotC. This was back before Dragonlance Lexicon was the great encyclopaedia that it is today. Maybe someone hunted around, couldn't find anything and then just picked a Mystaran year as somethiing to get the text block finished. :?

** = 3e Dragonlance (and the later DL novels) do seem to retcon and remove a number of elements of D&D.

night_druid wrote:
ripvanwormer wrote:
night_druid wrote:That's my understanding as well, although I'm not even sure if MW & TH consider Krynn to be, or ever was, inside a crystal sphere to begin with. ;)


They probably don't, although "Dome of Creation which surrounds all things" sounds a lot like a "crystal sphere" to me. I'm not much concerned with what Weis and Hickman think, though, unless I'm playing in a game where they're DMing.


True. And really, it only matters if you're running a Spelljammer game in Krynnspace.


It is equally possible that MW & TH also consider that Lord Soth never went to Ravenloft.

ripvanwormer wrote:
Havard wrote:I used the information from Wikipedia. From the War of Souls, I also got the impression that it was more a matter of the Gods and the moons arriving at Krynn, but I guess it could be read either way.


I think your impression is right.


Where I think that this (the 3e DL era) just does not hold up is that it just does not make sense. The DL gods have to "rebuild" the cosmology around Krynn (after they rediscover it). They then monkey around with the stars (to make them look like the original stars of Krynn) and build a new set of planets (to replace the original planets). I can not believe that building all that new stuff in a foreign crystal sphere would be easier than just taking Krynn back to where it came from. :roll:

Dragonhelm's Guide to Krynnspace is an attempt to get all of this stuff to work.

Dragonhelm goes with Krynn vanishing from Krynnspace and then Krynn's moons vanishing later. Finally he finishes up with the Dragonlance gods leaving Krynnspace. I think he has worked hard to get the two things to line up as well as possible, but I think that the MW and TH novel changes actually "break" Dragonlance. I don't think the "break" is as big a break as FRCG's Spellplague, but it is pretty hard to rationalise some of the stuff.

It is possible to run any campaign setting as a standalone thing (and ignore all this multiple world timeline stuff) but I think that Dragonlance has some very important elements that are tied into space (alien dragons and yaggol being just two) and that Krynnspace (as a place) could have been the perfect way to set up worlds where these space elements could have been given a place of origin***.

*** = For example, it would have been easy to have changed Reorx into the planet of origin of the yaggol, and then reboot the Reorx illithids into advanced yaggol.

I think the War of Souls changes make that sort of backstory thing a lot harder to do.
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Re: Timeline vs. other TSR worlds

Postby Havard » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:23 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Havard wrote:I also figured this was related to the Spellplague/Mystra's death. I have always felt that Mystara's planes should not be the same as those of the other settings (just like with Eberron I guess?), but there is no reason why Mystara's planar structure also couldn't change over the years. I think 1025 AC would be a bit early for such dramatic upheavals on Mystara though...


I agree that The Plane Below was a good sourcebook, but I'm personally too emotionally attached to the old elemental planes (specifically the Planescape version) to make the switch. Most of the locations in The Plane Below would fit in the older planar structure, anyway.

The Riverweb from The Plane Below looks just like Entrem, the Sphere of Time plane in Wrath of the Immortals, and might be used as inspiration for that.

If you did really want to destroy the inner planar structure, a combination of things might be the cause: the war between the Immortals in Wrath might cause a lot of damage to the planar boundaries and awaken a horde of slumbering draedens, who could conceivably have the power to finish the job. The Old Ones might step in to change the structure of the multiverse if they deemed it necessary to preserve it, though this last option seems a little heavy-handed to me.


I am pretty much convinced that Mystara needs to have its own set of Inner and Outer Planes, regardless of what happens elsewhere. I like the idea of the Planar Structure possibly changing over time and that the 4E model could represent a possible future or past version of Mystara's planar structure, but I am in no rush. Such changes should occur over centuries, not over a matter of a few years, in spite of some dramatic changes.

On the other hand, it could be interesting to take changes in the other Campaign Settings into account in some way or another. If we assume that the Forgotten Realms exists in another Dimension, could there still be ripples from dramatic changes in that setting, gradually affecting Mystara and vice versa?


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