[The Burrower Wars] Order of the Frog

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Havard
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[The Burrower Wars] Order of the Frog

Post by Havard »

Split from the topic of the Burrower Wars at the request of the original poster. -Havard
OldDawg wrote:I have Mohacs at 5200 BC, and the First Republic at 5000 BC. (via Mishler's timeline I believe)
That works.

Robert is also specified as the founder of Blackmoor however.
In what source? I know he's mentioned on a timeline at your site, but he was never mentioned in the DA series to the best of my recollection
I don't think he is in the DA series either. He appears in the First Fantasy Campaign (JG) and older D&D documents, such as the Domesday Book #13. Robert I of Geneva is of course, a reference to Rob J. Kuntz, "King" of the Castles & Crusade Society at the time. Arneson put him into his Blackmoor history as a friendly gesture to mr. Kuntz.

The event also found its way into the unofficial Blackmoor gazetteer by David Ross.
I'd prefer keeping the term more restricted, but I have no problem with other "Elder Evils" like the kopru popping up. The worms just get all the publicity ;)
My thoughts exactly! :)

If we include the Leviathan, this could be the same creature that later plagued King Milen (providing a link to a later age)!
No, it was the bearsharktopus!!!!
Lol! :lol:
As SE Brun really wouldn't feature in the Burrower Wars (ice cap and all), I doubt Zargon will make an appearance either. I'd rather leave him as one of the ancient horrors whose prison was weakened by the Burrorwers but whose release came from Cynidceans who "dug too deep."
Fair enough. Depending on Zargons abilities, perhaps he can still influence arctic explorers through their dreams?

I am also wondering about using Tsaothoggua/Brr'brrt/Stodos as such a creature, being responsible for the original Order of the Frog.
Not sure I know who the first two are. I sense my AD&D-fu is weak today. The Order of the Frog was listed as being founded in Vestfold in 4128 BC on the timeline I mentioned above. Which puts it well outside the window of the Burrower Wars.
[/quote]

The Order of the Frog was founded at this time by St. Stephen, but many sources lead to speculation that the deity of the Order is much older and that St. Stephen was a mere pawn of forces greater than himself, working to recreate a much older Frogman race. The ZGG line uses the name Brr'brrt for the deity of the Frog, but most likely, C.A.S' Tsathoggua and Lovecraft's Deep Ones were the inspiration for the Frogmen of Blackmoor. It has been suggested that Stodos is the Mystaran equivalent of the Frog deity. Of course, he is an Immortal, but he does fit quite well with the overall Lovecraft-ish theme you seem to be working towards...

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Re: MYSTARA 5300 BC: The Burrower Wars

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I'd agree with Havard on this one. If we have the modern frogfolk be a resurrected or reinvigorated race (courtesy of Stephen), it all works out neatly.
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Re: MYSTARA 5300 BC: The Burrower Wars

Post by JohnBiles »

Stephen with his alien tech could have found bodies that were partly preserved down in the muck enough to get their DNA and reconstitute them from that.

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Re: MYSTARA 5300 BC: The Burrower Wars

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JohnBiles wrote:Stephen with his alien tech could have found bodies that were partly preserved down in the muck enough to get their DNA and reconstitute them from that.
You know, that would work really well. It would also explain why the frogfolk initially had no memory of their former greatness. I really like this idea.
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Re: MYSTARA 5300 BC: The Burrower Wars

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JohnBiles wrote:Stephen with his alien tech could have found bodies that were partly preserved down in the muck enough to get their DNA and reconstitute them from that.
This is pretty close to what I have in mind: Stephen is lost in the swamps. His attempt to take over the Beagle has failed and he has managed to escape the Valley of the Ancients. His vessel crashed and he is stumping around, lost and miserable. Then he begins to hear whispering voices. An entity calling itself "the Frog", begins giving him instructions on what to do. Later he is reunined with his mutineer companions and they help him rebuild the Temple of the Frog on the old Sar Aigu ruins...

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Re: MYSTARA 5300 BC: The Burrower Wars

Post by ripvanwormer »

I think the Temple of the Frog was well-established long before Stephen came around. They'd been breeding killer frogs in the swamp for over a hundred years before Stephen seized control of the order, and they had a temple when he arrived. The frog folk were new creations of Stephen's alien tech, though, and he could well have used genes from ancient corpses to modify the killer frogs into frogmen.

Interestingly, Supplement II indicates that The Brothers of the Swamp were originally founded because they believed that humans would ultimately threaten all life, and animals (like frogs) were therefore superior. The question is, did they know about the Great Rain of Fire? Perhaps they were specifically attempting to create a species that would survive it. If so, who tipped them off?

Wrath of the Immortals says Khoronus knew about a coming disaster that would destroy the City of Blackmoor. Presumedly this disaster was the Great Rain of Fire, but perhaps, given the date of his ascension in the 3rd edition books (approximately 200 years before the reign of King Uther), it was the Mage Wars that he was afraid of. He seems to have traveled to that period, since that's when he first became Immortal according to Dave Arneson's Blackmoor. Initially worshiped as a patron of courage, strategy and tactics, the people of Blackmoor and Ten seem to have remembered him as an effective general during those wars, battling rogue wizards in order to combat a future only he could see.

Wrath of the Immortals said Khoronus "was one of the early founders of the City of Blackmoor and a counselor to the city's first rulers," which suggested he wasn't one of the rulers himself, nor the city's only founder. Since Robert of Geneva was the first emperor of Thonia, Khoronus seems to have had a different role. He might well have been one of Robert's adventuring companions, helping him found Blackmoor (which happened in the year 0, 1031 years before "the present time," or about 5000 BC) and going on to advise him personally. Perhaps Robert was something of an impetuous firebrand, and Khoronus was the calmer soul, always looking ahead, cautioning patience and forethought in the emperor's tactics and strategy. Eventually Khoronus decided that nothing he did in that era would be enough.

Wrath of the Immortals goes on to say that Khoronus founded a colony on a distant world because he realized "he would never be able to change his countryman's attitude enough to prevent the disaster." That's puzzling to me; what was it about his countryman's attitude that he felt caused the Great Rain of Fire, if that's what it was? Curiosity? Hubris? The problem for me is imagining anything staying so constant for 2000 years, apart from their humanity itself. And it's humanity that The Brothers of the Swamp decided was the problem. Perhaps, then, the order was founded based on some misguided interpretation of Khoronus's prophecy.

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Re: MYSTARA 5300 BC: The Burrower Wars

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ripvanwormer wrote:I think the Temple of the Frog was well-established long before Stephen came around. They'd been breeding killer frogs in the swamp for over a hundred years before Stephen seized control of the order, and they had a temple when he arrived. The frog folk were new creations of Stephen's alien tech, though, and he could well have used genes from ancient corpses to modify the killer frogs into frogmen.
That would work, although I like the idea of Frogfolk having existed in the past as well, though perhaps being exterminated through wars or whatever.

Interestingly, Supplement II indicates that The Brothers of the Swamp were originally founded because they believed that humans would ultimately threaten all life, and animals (like frogs) were therefore superior. The question is, did they know about the Great Rain of Fire? Perhaps they were specifically attempting to create a species that would survive it. If so, who tipped them off?
Pretty interesting find! It could be just yet another doomsday cult, but knowing what we do, I guess they could have had some precognitive insight as well? :twisted:

Wrath of the Immortals says Khoronus knew about a coming disaster that would destroy the City of Blackmoor. Presumedly this disaster was the Great Rain of Fire, but perhaps, given the date of his ascension in the 3rd edition books (approximately 200 years before the reign of King Uther), it was the Mage Wars that he was afraid of. He seems to have traveled to that period, since that's when he first became Immortal according to Dave Arneson's Blackmoor. Initially worshiped as a patron of courage, strategy and tactics, the people of Blackmoor and Ten seem to have remembered him as an effective general during those wars, battling rogue wizards in order to combat a future only he could see.
As he is an immortal of Time, he most likely embarked on the path of Dynast. That means he could have appeared in many different ages, fighting to protect his kingdom. Of course, this strengthens the theory that he was once ruler of Blackmoor...

The Mage Wars could have been one of those tests. The periond when Blackmoor was occupied by the forces of the Egg of Coot may have been another.
Wrath of the Immortals said Khoronus "was one of the early founders of the City of Blackmoor and a counselor to the city's first rulers," which suggested he wasn't one of the rulers himself, nor the city's only founder. Since Robert of Geneva was the first emperor of Thonia, Khoronus seems to have had a different role. He might well have been one of Robert's adventuring companions, helping him found Blackmoor (which happened in the year 0, 1031 years before "the present time," or about 5000 BC) and going on to advise him personally. Perhaps Robert was something of an impetuous firebrand, and Khoronus was the calmer soul, always looking ahead, cautioning patience and forethought in the emperor's tactics and strategy. Eventually Khoronus decided that nothing he did in that era would be enough.
Okay, that makse sense. I don't know how much time Robert I would have spent in Blackmoor either. He would probably have remained in Mohacs most of the time, appointing people like Khoronus to take care of the affairs of the North. I like the idea of the two adventuring together back then though.
Wrath of the Immortals goes on to say that Khoronus founded a colony on a distant world because he realized "he would never be able to change his countryman's attitude enough to prevent the disaster." That's puzzling to me; what was it about his countryman's attitude that he felt caused the Great Rain of Fire, if that's what it was? Curiosity? Hubris? The problem for me is imagining anything staying so constant for 2000 years, apart from their humanity itself. And it's humanity that The Brothers of the Swamp decided was the problem. Perhaps, then, the order was founded based on some misguided interpretation of Khoronus's prophecy.
That works. The myth seems analogous to the story of the tower of Babel. The hubris of humanity leading them to build a more and more advanced society, until they destroy themselves in the process. Perhaps the deity of the Frog fed this false interpretation of the Prophecy of the Scrolls of Khoronus to his human followers, leading them to seek to build a society based on Frogs rather than humans? And ideally turn themselves into frogs as well? IMC, there's alot of interbreeding between humans and frogfolk, inspired by the Lovecraft stories of the Deep Ones.


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Re: MYSTARA 5300 BC: The Burrower Wars

Post by ripvanwormer »

Havard wrote:As he is an immortal of Time, he most likely embarked on the path of Dynast. That means he could have appeared in many different ages, fighting to protect his kingdom. Of course, this strengthens the theory that he was once ruler of Blackmoor...
He did embark on the path of the Dynast (unintentionally), though on a different world, not Mystara. On Mystara, he seems to have been only an counselor, futilely attempting to convince the rulers to do as he advised. Finally, seeing he was getting nowhere with them, he started his own city "on a world far, far away on the Prime Plane" where he could guide civilization as he saw fit. I think if he had already been a ruler, he wouldn't have needed to do that.

He had a time machine when he lived on Mystara, of course, and he definitely used it to travel to the future, but Wrath of the Immortals doesn't make it sound like he embarked on the Path of the Dynast until he founded his city "inspired by Blackmoor" on a distant planet.

The "timeline" is nonlinear, of course, but my best guess is that after founding Blackmoor (with Robert of Geneva) in 5000 BC, Khoronus traveled to the future - probably the time of the Great Rain of Fire first, deciding that the disaster was the result of wizards not being organized enough to exert a balance with the makers of technology. Next he went back to his own time, trying to found a mage's guild that would last the ages, only to find determined resistance among the wizards of his time. Traveling to the Mage Wars, he tried to control the situation there, but the resulting Wizard's Cabal still wasn't strong enough. In resignation, he traveled to 4900 BC (a century after his original time) and convinced his descendants to travel with him to another world - perhaps Oerth, where he might have founded the "City of the Gods" there. After guiding his descendants in three different eras, he "died," waking up as an Immortal in that world's equivalent of 4200 BC. He became worshiped as a god in Mystara, teaching rulers and tacticians the benefits of wisdom and experience and slowly ascending to rulership of the Sphere of Time.

Wrath of the Immortals says that the men of Blackmoor in Khoronus's era didn't know of any Immortals of the Sphere of Time, which doesn't mean they didn't exist, or that Blackmoorians in later eras didn't worship a number of them. I think the only major non-elven Immortal of Time in the Blackmoor era was Mwajin/Protius, and the Blackmoorians of 5000 BC might not have revered him yet.

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