Dwarf cleric reincarnated Shadow Elf - spells from Kagyar?

[Khuzd]

This is a real situation we are living in our current campaign...

The Dwarf cleric (using Rockhome GAZ rules) was killed. The PCs had not access to "Raise Dead" and they were in huge need, so they cast a "Reincarnation" from a scroll... The DM rolls dices and... the Dwarf soul enters in a newly created Shadow Elf body!!

He remembers all his life and religion and rituals to honor Kagyar... but he is no longer a Dwarf, so I ruled that he does not receive Kagyar spells nor habilities. He was a high level dwarf, and now he is a high level elf (with warrior habilities: 2 attacks/round, smash, etc... the warriors in the grup quickly teach him this skills).

He is also able to use magic wands, scrolls... but he has not a spell book at the moment, so he can not learn spells...

After that, the PCs politly asked him to accept a spell cast on him: a "polimorph other", and they polymorphed the shadow elf into... a dwarf!!!

The dwarf does not remember his past life... but, as a dwarf, Kagyar has given him his favour again, so he can now cast clerical magic, and he retains his fighting skills with the warhammer and crossbow.

If somebody casts "dispel magic"... he will become a shadow elf again, I suppose... "Reincarnation" is not "dispellable", is it?

If he is going to be a shadow elf all his remaining life... would Rafiel try to guide him in anyway... dreams, etc...? Is Kagyar utterly uninterested in bestowing clerical magic to this shadow elf with a dwarven soul? Would he like, but it is not possible, just because dwarven souls need dwarven bodies to be clerical?

How does a dwarf in a shadow elf body feel... (The player is quite puzzled, you can imagine).

[Dave L]

Good grief!

How did the player roleplay his character's attitute towards elves before he died?

How does Kagyar (in your campaign) view elves?

There's a possibility here for the character to have such self-loathing that he'd happily suicide, or run off (with the polymorph dispelled) to try and cause massive havoc amongst the elves.

If his attitudes were less xenophobic towards elves before he died, he simply has the mother of all personality conflicts. ouch!

He could need therapy on this one.

[JohnBiles]

Isn't Kagyar also worshiped by some non-Dwarves too? I would incline to think Kagyar would understand that this guy started as a Dwarf, anyway.

[cab]

Quickly, give them a ring of wishes and instructions on how to reverse all of this mess

What a marvellous conundrum. I'd rule that Kagyar would allow the elf to remain his priest.

[Mortis]

If it was my campaign, I would rule that despite the body inhabited the character still has a dwarven soul and would have no problems with getting spells from Kaygar. Retconning that sould be trickey though - unless you do a 'Dallas shower scene' sort of thing. Shadowelf/dwarf wakes up due to the reincarnation and says 'Guys I've had the strangest dream...'

Regards
Gary

[Brett McKee]

Perhaps you could have Kagyar give the shadowelf/dwarf character a quest to regain favor with Kagyar? At the completion of the quest Kagyar could either bestow clerical powers to the shadowelf or give the character his old body back.

[Azaghal]

Perhaps you could have Kagyar give the shadowelf/dwarf character a quest to regain favor with Kagyar? At the completion of the quest Kagyar could either bestow clerical powers to the shadowelf or give the character his old body back.

His soul is that of a dwarf, I'd do as Brett says and give him a quest from Kagyar to place him in a new dwarven body but maybe let him keep the new combat skills.

[Cthulhudrew]

Kagyar definitely has non-dwarven followers (and clerics), and wasn't even a dwarf himself in his mortal life. I don't see where he would necessarily have any problem with a follower being reincarnated as a shadowelf. Kagyar doesn't seem to have any particular animosity towards the SE- arguably, he might have issues with the Schattenalfen of the Hollow World for their history with the Kogolor dwarves.

[Chimpman]

Kagyar definitely has non-dwarven followers (and clerics), and wasn't even a dwarf himself in his mortal life. I don't see where he would necessarily have any problem with a follower being reincarnated as a shadowelf.

Yep, I totally agree here. Kagyar doesn't strike me as being particularly snobbish about who his worshipers are. I might even argue that he could at some point try and take SE worshipers away from Rafiel - especially if he thinks Rafiel is an entropic. The SE love of the deep places of the earth and the stone around them could play right into Kagyar's hands. Perhaps he uses this dwarf turned shadow elf as a prophet in new lands...

Kagyar doesn't seem to have any particular animosity towards the SE- arguably, he might have issues with the Schattenalfen of the Hollow World for their history with the Kogolor dwarves.

I doubt he even cares that much - having dumped the Kogolor in the HW without too much ceremony and pretty much left them to their own fate. He's not even listed as one of their major immortal patrons.

[Cthulhudrew]

I doubt he even cares that much - having dumped the Kogolor in the HW without too much ceremony and pretty much left them to their own fate. He's not even listed as one of their major immortal patrons.

I was just thinking in terms of him having sent Denwarf to lead the Kogolors (successfully) against the Schattenalfen, and thus driving the elves out of Kogolor territory. It does seem odd (in retrospect) that he isn't accorded a higher status among the Kogolors. Probably has something to do with them being primarily followers of other Immortals on the OW before relocation? I would expect that he must have at least some following among them (in an expanded pantheon/cultural exploration), much like Palartarkan shows up in the Milenian Empire sourcebook, but not in the HW boxed set entries.

Another one of those oft maddening quirks of the nebulous Spell of Preservation.

[RobJN]

I can't help thinking that this should be on an episode of Jerry Springer, or Maury or something....

[Cthulhudrew]

I can't help thinking that this should be on an episode of Jerry Springer, or Maury or something....

Actually, it reminds me of a character I once made for a new (and very short lived) campaign a friend of mine was running. It was a homebrew world, and the premise was elves in a land increasingly being overtaken by human occupation. Everyone was supposed to be running an elf character, so I decided to change up the formula (with the DM's help), and had my character be a human highlander who had been polymorphed into an elf as a curse, and so was now outcast from his people. So he was this rather large elf with a kilt and a claymore, forced to live among the pagan magic-using people his own clan fought against.

[Azaghal]

I can't help thinking that this should be on an episode of Jerry Springer, or Maury or something....

Actually, it reminds me of a character I once made for a new (and very short lived) campaign a friend of mine was running. It was a homebrew world, and the premise was elves in a land increasingly being overtaken by human occupation. Everyone was supposed to be running an elf character, so I decided to change up the formula (with the DM's help), and had my character be a human highlander who had been polymorphed into an elf as a curse, and so was now outcast from his people. So he was this rather large elf with a kilt and a claymore, forced to live among the pagan magic-using people his own clan fought against.

That must have made for great roleplaying. What a cool idea.

[Planefarer]

Isn't Kagyar also worshiped by some non-Dwarves too?

Yes, he is. For example, Queen Kryndylya of Haven in Alphatia is a cleric of Kagyar (according to DotE, p.45), though she is clearly human.

On that basis, I would tend to let the character remain a cleric of Kagyar. The character may not be dwarvish in body anymore, but that does not seem to be a requisite for being a follower or even a cleric of Kagyar. Besides while the character may not be dwarven in body, he still would be in spirit, I think. Other dwarves would doubtlessly question this, but I think Kagyar would know the truth and act accordingly. But I would agree that since he is not physically a dwarf, he would no longer gain any of the dwarven traits, such as inherent resistance to magic (be it good or bad).

This sort of thing may seem like a mess, but it has some wonderful role-playing potential. What does a dwarf feel like trappen in the body of a traditional enemy? Take a look at Minder from the "Forgotten Realms" comic book (a dwarf spirit trapped in an iron golem's body).

And think of how much fun can it be to have a shadowelven cleric of Kagyar. How will dwarves react? How will shadowelves react? Will the character have any chance to be accepted by either, or will he be doomed to be forever shunned by both?

[Azaghal]

Isn't Kagyar also worshiped by some non-Dwarves too?

Yes, he is. For example, Queen Kryndylya of Haven in Alphatia is a cleric of Kagyar (according to DotE, p.45), though she is clearly human.

On that basis, I would tend to let the character remain a cleric of Kagyar. The character may not be dwarvish in body anymore, but that does not seem to be a requisite for being a follower or even a cleric of Kagyar. Besides while the character may not be dwarven in body, he still would be in spirit, I think. Other dwarves would doubtlessly question this, but I think Kagyar would know the truth and act accordingly. But I would agree that since he is not physically a dwarf, he would no longer gain any of the dwarven traits, such as inherent resistance to magic (be it good or bad).

This sort of thing may seem like a mess, but it has some wonderful role-playing potential. What does a dwarf feel like trappen in the body of a traditional enemy? Take a look at Minder from the "Forgotten Realms" comic book (a dwarf spirit trapped in an iron golem's body).

And think of how much fun can it be to have a shadowelven cleric of Kagyar. How will dwarves react? How will shadowelves react? Will the character have any chance to be accepted by either, or will he be doomed to be forever shunned by both?

Given that Kagyar probably would be fine with the dwarf now being a Shadow Elf, I would say just run it and see what happens. As mentioned above it's a great area for roleplaying. However, if the dwarf wants a dwarf body back (not the original) he could ask Kagyar for a quest...... no guarantee that Kagyar will agree to this.

[Ashtagon]

Maybe the dwarf's quest could be to spread Kagyar's worship to a shadow elf community. At which point, assuming he has succeeded, he faces the moral dilemma of whether or not to abandon that community.

[Havard]

I think it could be interesting to play out a scenario where the Dwarf in Elf Body would keep his spells (Kagyar doesnt have a dwarf's bias), but where the dwarven Clergy would continously challenge his position, demanding that he would perform a series of quest for them to prove his worth.

I love hearing about your campaign Khuzd, sounds like you have alot of awesome stuff going on in your games!

Havard

[Cthulhudrew]

I think it could be interesting to play out a scenario where the Dwarf in Elf Body would keep his spells (Kagyar doesnt have a dwarf's bias), but where the dwarven Clergy would continously challenge his position, demanding that he would perform a series of quest for them to prove his worth.

That's actually a really good angle, and one I hadn't considered. I think Kagyar would probably have no problem continuing to grant the cleric in elf body his spells and responding to him (so long as the cleric remains in good standing), but the actual mortal "church" of Kagyar would probably have issues with the cleric's new status. Given the contentious nature of dwarves and elves traditionally, not to mention the more acrimonious (on those rare occasions they interact) relationship with Shadowelves, I think the new cleric would be at the very least considered a pariah back home.

[Havard]

That's actually a really good angle, and one I hadn't considered. I think Kagyar would probably have no problem continuing to grant the cleric in elf body his spells and responding to him (so long as the cleric remains in good standing), but the actual mortal "church" of Kagyar would probably have issues with the cleric's new status. Given the contentious nature of dwarves and elves traditionally, not to mention the more acrimonious (on those rare occasions they interact) relationship with Shadowelves, I think the new cleric would be at the very least considered a pariah back home.

The first associations that leapt to my mind was the Watchers, testing Buffy... I could see the Dwarven Clergy being a bit like that. Could have a lot of interesting adventure opportunities coming along with it too. Of course, the Dwarf in question might be less willing to give the Clergy "the finger" than Buffy was...

Havard

[Gawain_VIII]

In order to work out this delima, I'll follow through the events forwards and backwards:

First off came the reincarnaion. R.A.W. (I'm assuming RC here) states "If the life force is reincarnated as a different race, all details of the new race apply...a cleric reincarnated as an elf is no longer a cleric, but is able to cast magic-user spells and fight..."

Next was the polymorph other. The spell description says "Unlike the polymorph self spell, polymorph other actually turns the victim into the new creature, giving him all the special abilities of the new form, plus its tendencies and behavior" and "This spell cannot create a duplicate of a specific individual, only a race or monster type. For example, a creatured polymorphed into a 9th level fighter will indeed become human, but not necessarily a fighter and no higher than 1st level."

On the matter of dispelling, reincarnation is PERMANANT and poly other is PERM UNTIL DISSPELLED.

So, learning this, after the reincarnation spell, the character was a high-level elf (without a spellbook) and no divine favors from Kagyar. After the Poly Other spell, he should have been a 1st level dwarf OR dwarf-cleric (or possibly Thorn)--dwarf-cleric is not guaranteed. If dwarf-cleric is determined, then RAW, he gets his spells back (at 1st level), otherwise he does not.

Now! With that said, let's go backwards:
Naturally, to prevent the character from getting dropped, the DM will hand-wave the 1st-level rule, so I won't consider that here.
if dwarf-cleric is the determined polymorph class, no problem (just don't get disspelled). If not, the most obvious solution would be to quest for a return of favors, after the success of which the non-cleric dwarf becomes a dwarf-cleric again. If years later he forgets that he was once dead and gets dispelled... well, he's SOL... which takes us to the next backwards-step.

The next option is to dispell poly other, and quest described above could be undertaken to prove his devotion to Kagyar--the success of which will allow the elf to utilize the "shadowelf shaman" option, but instead of getting Rafiel's (i.e. the standard shadowelf shaman's) list of available spells, he's instead get kagyar's list of spells. (I'd suggest allowing the character to choose from both magic-user and cleric lists--more variety, but using the elf shaman's per-day chart.) If doing this, I'd also remind the player that Kagyar is a creator, and per GAZ6, disapproves of destructive (or reversed) spells... so many of the magic-user list would be unavailable to the post-quest "Shadowelven Cleric of Kagyar".

And going backwards from the beginning, if all else fails, he dies (or commits suicide) and reincarnates again... HOPEFULLY with better results.
Just because I'm vindictive, I'd disallow suicide, saying that the soul is trapped in Limbo by one of the Minions of Chaos for such a deed, or perhaps Kagyar, being a creator, does not allow the soul to leave Limbo since suicide is counter to The Artisan's creative Philosophy.

However it plays out, whatever you choose to do... in the end, make is creative, challenging, and entertaining!

Cheers,
Roger

[Chimpman]

I think it could be interesting to play out a scenario where the Dwarf in Elf Body would keep his spells (Kagyar doesnt have a dwarf's bias), but where the dwarven Clergy would continously challenge his position, demanding that he would perform a series of quest for them to prove his worth.

I think this is a great idea as well. It makes perfect sense that the beliefs of the mortal church (in Rockhome) would be challenged by an "elven" cleric of Kagyar, but that Kagyar himself wouldn't even blink an eye.