Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

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Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Havard » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:00 pm

I was taking another look at Zendrolion's Demografia MystaranaBook the other day. Are there any plans to have this book translated into English?

Also, the map at the back of the book is particularly beautiful. In fact I love it so much that I have a printed copy on my wall. Is there an english version available? Thorf have some similar ones, but not that cover the exact same area AFAIK.

Any help would be appreciated :)

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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Gecko » Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:22 pm

There are a number of gems coming out of the Italian Mystaraphiles group, but this one in particular I think ought to be the next translation effort after the last passes on the Codex Immortalis.

Between the little bit of spanish/latin I know, combined with online translators, I'm able to get most of what it says, and I've noticed some entry's are more consistent than others (ie I've been noticing the Ylaruam numbers don't quite add up), and I also have the original italian threads saved to go back and double check things.

Perhaps in the mean time we could work out a 'meat-and-potatoe's' tranlation for now (ie the main points and numbers should be easy enough to get, though the history of settlement parts would need a more careful translation.)?

PS there's also a draft version of the demography out for Norwold.

PPS At one point I was translating a section and I cracked up laughing when the online translater translated the italian word for medusa into the english word 'jellyfish'
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Zendrolion » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:48 am

Hi!
First of all many thanks for your appreciations of my ponderous work! :D
Coming to questions:

Havard wrote:I was taking another look at Zendrolion's Demografia MystaranaBook the other day. Are there any plans to have this book translated into English?


Not at the moment, just becouse the whole book needs to be updated with my newest unfinished works about etnography. Moreover, I think I'd like to revise further some population numbers and the distribution of races.

Havard wrote:Also, the map at the back of the book is particularly beautiful. In fact I love it so much that I have a printed copy on my wall. Is there an english version available? Thorf have some similar ones, but not that cover the exact same area AFAIK.


Thank you! I included Wendar and Sind in the KW countries' bowl, so I needed a map covering that countries also - something the "classic" KW map doesn't do. Please beware becouse there are some mistakes in placing terrain hexes (broken lands, IIRC) in the Great Waste area, west of Sind.

Gecko wrote:Perhaps in the mean time we could work out a 'meat-and-potatoe's' tranlation for now (ie the main points and numbers should be easy enough to get, though the history of settlement parts would need a more careful translation.)?


Of course I'm offering all the help I can lend, but at the moment I'm unable to undertake the effort of a full translation of the book, mostly becouse of lacking time, and also becouse the work needs an update - History parts included.

I'd have liked to turn the demography book into a sort of campaign book (setting only, without any particular ties with one game system or another), in the "Forgotten Realms campaign setting" style for D&D ed. 3.0. But until I'm done with etnography I can't really update that work.

Gecko wrote:PS there's also a draft version of the demography out for Norwold.


That's the volume 2 of the Demography Project. I published it in draft versione becouse the work on Norwold halted when I decided I had to organize the etnographic material before going on with demography. Lack of time slowed and then halted that also... ;(

Gecko wrote:PPS At one point I was translating a section and I cracked up laughing when the online translater translated the italian word for medusa into the english word 'jellyfish'


Actually, in Italian jellyfishes are really called "meduse" (plural form of singular "medusa"). We also use "Medusa" as the name of one of the three Gorgons - those nasty snake-haired ladies who turned everyone they looked upon into stone - from the Greek mythology (in particular, for the one killed by the hero Perseus).
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Gecko » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:30 am

Zendrolion wrote:Hi!
First of all many thanks for your appreciations of my ponderous work! :D
Coming to questions:

Havard wrote:I was taking another look at Zendrolion's Demografia MystaranaBook the other day. Are there any plans to have this book translated into English?


Not at the moment, just becouse the whole book needs to be updated with my newest unfinished works about etnography. Moreover, I think I'd like to revise further some population numbers and the distribution of races.


I was wondering if the two projects were meant to go together or not, I xinda thought they were, but there also seemed to be some groups in one that did not appear to be in the other (i.e. Biazzani/Biazzanian - Which I took to be a Thyatian subgroup made of up of Kerendan, Thyatian, and Ispan bloodlines with cultural/societial {and maybe some blood} influence from pre-al Kalimite Ylari culture)

Gecko wrote:Perhaps in the mean time we could work out a 'meat-and-potatoe's' tranlation for now (ie the main points and numbers should be easy enough to get, though the history of settlement parts would need a more careful translation.)?


Of course I'm offering all the help I can lend, but at the moment I'm unable to undertake the effort of a full translation of the book, mostly becouse of lacking time, and also becouse the work needs an update - History parts included.


If it's about to be updated, that's even more reason not to worry about a full translation at this time. I'll bet that the community could get the gist of a translation (focusing mainly on numbers and such) going with just occasionall clarifications from someone who speaks Italian. ie, a few I've been unsure of:
"Fate" = Faeries?
"Gargolle" = Gargoyles?
"Esterni del Fuoco" = planar creatures?
"stregoni"/"Alti" = "foreigners"/"others"?
"lupi mannari" = werewolves?

Gecko wrote:PPS At one point I was translating a section and I cracked up laughing when the online translater translated the italian word for medusa into the english word 'jellyfish'


Actually, in Italian jellyfishes are really called "meduse" (plural form of singular "medusa"). We also use "Medusa" as the name of one of the three Gorgons - those nasty snake-haired ladies who turned everyone they looked upon into stone - from the Greek mythology (in particular, for the one killed by the hero Perseus).


interesting, cheers.
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Alfheim

Postby Gecko » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:19 am

Here's a start on the Alfheim translation:

Alfheim
Area: 63,075 sq. km.
Population: 204,540 (88.3% Elven, 5% Human, 1.5% Centaur, 1.5% Metamorph, 3.7% Other) though when I put it into a spreadsheet it actually comes out 88.2% Elven and 3.8% others.
Density: 3.2 inhabitants/sq. km.

Urban Centers:
Ainsun (500), Alfheim City (15,000), Desnae (2,500), Dorneryll (17), Elleromyr (3,000), Feador (1,000), Mealidor (1,500), Shadowtree (272), Pinitel (1,500), Scrubton (61), Shieldtree (3,000), Oakendale (46)

The principal elf clans have "urban" centers of between 500-3,000.

and then a line that reads, I think, something roughly like:
13.7%* of the population would be considered urban by elven standards, but only Alfheim City would match most people's definition of urban, so by that criterea 7.3% of the population are urban

*=This checks if you count only the 7 clan town holdings and Alfheim city (ie not including Shadowtree, etc.)

180,500 Elves
10,150 Humans
3,000 Centaur
3,000 Metamorphs
1,650 Faeries (If that's what "Fate" means)
1,500 Wood Imps
1,000 Dryads
950 Fauns
900 Hin
400 [Earth/Rock] Gnomes
350 Lupins
300 Dwarves
250 Chevals
200 Orcs
150 Treants
100 Hsiao

now if you add that up, that leaves you 140 shy of the total. Reverse engineering from the tables at the end adds roughly 71 Harpies, 58-59 Half-orcs, & 11-12 Lycanthropes ("lupi mannari" = Werewolves?), thus totaling the missing 140. However, such reverse engineering from those tables adds all kinds of issues with the human population.

Elves: 180,500, something about 99.8% are natives of Alfheim, and 0.2% are foreign elves. The main clans have 15,000-20,000 members, and the lesser clans have 500-6,000 members.
  • 60.6% or 109,383 "Sylvan Elves" including Mealidil, Long Runner, & Erendyl clans, & (most? all?) the minor clans
  • 19% or 34,295 "Brunian Elves" including Feadiel & Chossum clans
  • 10.2% or 18,411 High? ("Chiari") Elves including Grunalf clan
  • 10% or 18,050 "Scuri" Elves ("Shield Elves"? "Militant Elves"?) including Red Arrow Clan
  • 0.2% or 361 "foreign" elves*
*= not (apparently) mentioned in the document, but in the original Italian threads mention is made that this is Belcadiz, Erewan, Callarii, Vyalia, Wendarian, & Shiye elves & Shadow elven infiltrators/spies
Checking these against the tables at the back and reverse engineering gives ROUGHLY (significant rounding errors to be expected):
total elves: 14.9% of all Known World elves or 180,759 (vs 180,500, check)
32.1% of all Known World "Sylvan elves" or 109,583 (vs 109,383, check)
48.4% of all Known World "Brunian elves" or 34,330 (vs 34,295, check)
28.5% of all Known World "'Chiari' elves" or 20,378 (vs 18,411, difference due to rouding errors?)
94.8% of all Known World "'scuri' elves" or 18,059 (vs 18,050, check)
0.3% of all Known World "'Alti' elves" or 181 (vs 361, I think the difference is because this 181 is only Shiye & Shadow elves, the others - Erewan, Callari, etc. - would be included in the other elven ethnic groups above?)

For the Humans it mention's that 60% of the Humans have lived in Alfheim for generations ("alfheim nationals", I'm calling them). It then mentions 6 other 'nationalities' with percentages totaling 100%. I'm not sure If this is for all humans or just the remaining 40% who are not 'alfheim nationals'. If you try to reverse engineer from the tables at the end the numbers get really wacky with lots of other groups added in with much higher totals. There's also mention of the human village of Scrubtown (population 61) in the Emerlas region.

Centaurs: 3,000
about 300 live in Alfheim town, the rest in tribes of 30-200.
The table at the back gives that 20.6% of all Known World Centaurs live in Alfheim, which works out to 3,003, so it checks.

Metamorphs: 3,000, living in "settlements?" of 50-200
table at back gives 97.7% of KW metamorphs are in Alfheim (= 2,999. check.)

more to come some other day, unless someone else beats me to it (feel free to have at it!)
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby agathokles » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:29 am

Gecko wrote:"Fate" = Faeries?
"Gargolle" = Gargoyles?
"Esterni del Fuoco" = planar creatures?
"stregoni"/"Alti" = "foreigners"/"others"?
"lupi mannari" = werewolves?


All correct, except that "stregoni" is sorcerers (or wizards, depending on the context) and "alti" means high.
Also, "esterni del fuoco" means fire outer[planar]s, the actual meaning may depend on the context as well.

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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Zendrolion » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:15 pm

Gecko wrote:I was wondering if the two projects were meant to go together or not, I xinda thought they were, but there also seemed to be some groups in one that did not appear to be in the other (i.e. Biazzani/Biazzanian - Which I took to be a Thyatian subgroup made of up of Kerendan, Thyatian, and Ispan bloodlines with cultural/societial {and maybe some blood} influence from pre-al Kalimite Ylari culture)


Yes, just becouse you asked, we (i.e. me and other friends on the Italian MMB) decided to call "Biazzans" the Thyatians who had lived for generations in contact with Alasiyan culture (mostly in Tel Akbir, Biazzan, Dythestenia, and Nicostenia areas); we supposed that their language could have undergone some changes becouse of that influence, and that they'd have developed the M-Italian names like di Malapietra, Glantri, Fulvina, and so on that we know from canon. Most of thos living in Alasiya would have migrated to the Highlands/Glantri in AC 728-30 (basically becoming the Caurentines - inhabitants of Caurenze - and Glantrian Thyatians), while others returned to Thyatis one century later.

I'm not quite satisfied with the name "Biazzans" anymore, however.

Gecko wrote:If it's about to be updated, that's even more reason not to worry about a full translation at this time. I'll bet that the community could get the gist of a translation (focusing mainly on numbers and such) going with just occasionall clarifications from someone who speaks Italian. ie, a few I've been unsure of:
"Fate" = Faeries?
"Gargolle" = Gargoyles?
"Esterni del Fuoco" = planar creatures?
"stregoni"/"Alti" = "foreigners"/"others"?
"lupi mannari" = werewolves?


"Fate" = Fey creatures (according to D&D ed. 3.x definition of the "Fey" type - which includes pixies, dryads, and so on)
"Gargolle" = Gargoyles
"Esterni del Fuoco" = Outsiders of the Plane of Fire (likely with the "Fire" subtype)
"stregoni"/"Alti" = sorcerers/high (where did you find this one? Perhaps I can suggest a better translation if I realize the original context)
"lupi mannari" = werewolves

Gecko wrote:Here's a start on the Alfheim translation:


I consider the "Introduction" as particularly important to understand the scope and the methods I adopted in the whole work.
Now, about you great Alfheim translation:

Gecko wrote:Population: 204,540 (88.3% Elven, 5% Human, 1.5% Centaur, 1.5% Metamorph, 3.7% Other) though when I put it into a spreadsheet it actually comes out 88.2% Elven and 3.8% others.


It's likely that many mistakes have made their way into the manual. Nevertheless, sometimes approximations and roundings could be the reason of some inconsistencies.

Gecko wrote:and then a line that reads, I think, something roughly like:
13.7%* of the population would be considered urban by elven standards, but only Alfheim City would match most people's definition of urban, so by that criterea 7.3% of the population are urban


You perfectly catched the meaning of that! ;)

Gecko wrote:1,650 Faeries (If that's what "Fate" means)


"Feys" properly, in the 3rd ed. meaning, as I said above.

Gecko wrote:now if you add that up, that leaves you 140 shy of the total. Reverse engineering from the tables at the end adds roughly 71 Harpies, 58-59 Half-orcs, & 11-12 Lycanthropes ("lupi mannari" = Werewolves?), thus totaling the missing 140. However, such reverse engineering from those tables adds all kinds of issues with the human population.


As I said, some of those inconsistencies could be the result of approximations and roundings up or down, while others could be the result of sheer mistakes. That's another of the reasons why the manual needs an update. In particular, population numbers were always rounded up or down to the next or previous tenth, while percentages to the first decimal.

Gecko wrote:Elves: 180,500, something about 99.8% are natives of Alfheim, and 0.2% are foreign elves. The main clans have 15,000-20,000 members, and the lesser clans have 500-6,000 members.
  • 60.6% or 109,383 "Sylvan Elves" including Mealidil, Long Runner, & Erendyl clans, & (most? all?) the minor clans
  • 19% or 34,295 "Brunian Elves" including Feadiel & Chossum clans
  • 10.2% or 18,411 High? ("Chiari") Elves including Grunalf clan
  • 10% or 18,050 "Scuri" Elves ("Shield Elves"? "Militant Elves"?) including Red Arrow Clan
  • 0.2% or 361 "foreign" elves*
*= not (apparently) mentioned in the document, but in the original Italian threads mention is made that this is Belcadiz, Erewan, Callarii, Vyalia, Wendarian, & Shiye elves & Shadow elven infiltrators/spies


I'm not quite happy anymore with the subdivision of elven subraces I did when I wrote the manual. Nevertheless, it was roughly organized in this way:

* Sylvan or Wood Elves (Italian: Elfi Silvani o dei Boschi): The "classic" elves whose the majority of the elven race belongs to (Callarii, Erendyl, Erewan, Longrunner, Mealidil, a large part of Wendarian elves, and most elves belonging to Alfheim's lesser clans, etc.);
* Brown Elves (Italian: Elfi Bruni): They're not "from Brun", but instead swarthy-complexioned and dark-haired; the Belcadiz elves belong to this group, as well as the Chossum and the Feadiel clans of Alfheim (in a later revision, the Feadiel were instead numbered among the Sylvan Elves);
* Fair Elves (Italian: Elfi Chiari): Those are tall as humans, blonde-, platinum-, or silver-haired, and with a pale complexion; some elves of Wendar belong to this group, as well as the Vyalia, the Shiye, and the Grunalf clans);
* High Elves (Italian: Elfi Alti): These are the last descendants of the ancient Red Woods elves living near Blackmoor; they're very tall and more like the traditional "high elves" featured in classic fantasy (like Tolkien); the Icevale Elves, and some elves living in Wendar belong to this group.;
* Dusk Elves (Italian: Elfi Scuri): I included this subrace to justify the Red Arrows' "swarthy complexion" (as GAZ5 puts it) and to explain the dark-skinned female elf on GAZ5's cover; in a later revision, they've been included among the Brown Elves.

"Foreign elves" just means "elves not native of Alfheim"; thus migrants and the like.

Gecko wrote:Checking these against the tables at the back and reverse engineering gives ROUGHLY (significant rounding errors to be expected):
total elves: 14.9% of all Known World elves or 180,759 (vs 180,500, check)
32.1% of all Known World "Sylvan elves" or 109,583 (vs 109,383, check)
48.4% of all Known World "Brunian elves" or 34,330 (vs 34,295, check)
28.5% of all Known World "'Chiari' elves" or 20,378 (vs 18,411, difference due to rouding errors?)
94.8% of all Known World "'scuri' elves" or 18,059 (vs 18,050, check)
0.3% of all Known World "'Alti' elves" or 181 (vs 361, I think the difference is because this 181 is only Shiye & Shadow elves, the others - Erewan, Callari, etc. - would be included in the other elven ethnic groups above?)


I suppose the main discrepancies are due to rounding (first decimal, as I said above).
Nevertheless, for some clarifications:

* High Elves (Elfi Alti) are included among "foreign elves" in Alfheim; but not all "foreign elves" of course are High Elves. High Elves come from Wendar, so a part of the 361 foreign elves in Alfheim is composed by High Elven immigrants from Wendar. As I explained above, the High Elves are by no means related directly to Callarii, Shiye and Shadow Elves.

* The same is true for other elven subraces: percentages given for subraces living in Alfheim have to be counted against the 99.8% of Alfheim's elven population (180,500), that is native elves. The tables at the end of the book, of course, list the additional number of foreign elves belonging to a given subrace within the percentages of that subrace - hence the slightly different numbers. There seem to be some mistakes anyway. :oops:

I roughly end up with the following discrepancies regarding elves subraces in Alfheim:

Elves: 180.759 (Table) vs 180.500 (Alfheim entry)
Fair Elves: 18.447 (Table) vs 18.374 (Alfheim entry)
Brown Elves: 34.330 (Table) vs 34.226 (Alfheim entry) [1]
Sylvan Elves: 109.583 (Table) vs 109.164 (Alfheim entry)

[1] You've to add to the number listed in Alfheim entry for native Brown Elves the number of immigrant Brown Elves, which is included in the 0.2% percentage of "foreign elves" (thus, of those 361 foreign elves, 181 are High Elves from Wendar, and 180 belong to other subraces - if you suppose to have those 180 split in half between Fair Elves and Brown Elves, numbers begin to match - more or less :P ).

Gecko wrote:For the Humans it mention's that 60% of the Humans have lived in Alfheim for generations ("alfheim nationals", I'm calling them). It then mentions 6 other 'nationalities' with percentages totaling 100%. I'm not sure If this is for all humans or just the remaining 40% who are not 'alfheim nationals'.


It's for the remaining 40% only; nationals are just that, nationals. ;)

Gecko wrote:If you try to reverse engineer from the tables at the end the numbers get really wacky with lots of other groups added in with much higher totals. There's also mention of the human village of Scrubtown (population 61) in the Emerlas region.


I did those tiring and boring calculations with an excel spreadsheet at that time; there could be mistakes, nevertheless.
I see the discrepancy for humans is 10.780 (Table) vs 10.150 (Alfheim entry); considering that the table works with very large numbers (nearly eleven millions), I think the inconsistency could be due to rounding to the first decimal.

BTW, Scrubton village is the one found in the module "XS2 - Blade of Vengeance".
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causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Gecko » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:05 am

Zendrolion wrote:
Gecko wrote:I was wondering if the two projects were meant to go together or not, I xinda thought they were, but there also seemed to be some groups in one that did not appear to be in the other (i.e. Biazzani/Biazzanian - Which I took to be a Thyatian subgroup made of up of Kerendan, Thyatian, and Ispan bloodlines with cultural/societial {and maybe some blood} influence from pre-al Kalimite Ylari culture)


Yes, just becouse you asked, we (i.e. me and other friends on the Italian MMB) decided to call "Biazzans" the Thyatians who had lived for generations in contact with Alasiyan culture (mostly in Tel Akbir, Biazzan, Dythestenia, and Nicostenia areas); we supposed that their language could have undergone some changes becouse of that influence, and that they'd have developed the M-Italian names like di Malapietra, Glantri, Fulvina, and so on that we know from canon. Most of thos living in Alasiya would have migrated to the Highlands/Glantri in AC 728-30 (basically becoming the Caurentines - inhabitants of Caurenze - and Glantrian Thyatians), while others returned to Thyatis one century later.

I'm not quite satisfied with the name "Biazzans" anymore, however.


It makes sense that a unique sub-culture would of arisen over the years. I even played a similar character once- a character from an Alasiyan family who had fled to Biazzan when the faith of Al-Kalim took over, the family had remained loyal to the "old faith" over the generations, but were otherwise assimilated into Thyatian Biazzan.

I can see the Biazzan and Tel Akbir being two points on a spectrum-
Tel Akbir having mostly Ylari blood, while the Biazzani's having mostly Thyatian/Kerendan/Ispan blood, but both having ethnic/blood admixtures of the other (less so for Tel Akbiri's), and cultural influences from both.

Will your revision include Kerendans as a seperate sub-group, or do you consider them too mixed with regular thyatians (and thus with too many half-Kerendans half-Thyatians, and other such variations- quarters, etc.) to be worth doing so?

Gecko wrote:If it's about to be updated, that's even more reason not to worry about a full translation at this time. I'll bet that the community could get the gist of a translation (focusing mainly on numbers and such) going with just occasionall clarifications from someone who speaks Italian. ie, a few I've been unsure of:
"Fate" = Faeries?
"Gargolle" = Gargoyles?
"Esterni del Fuoco" = planar creatures?
"stregoni"/"Alti" = "foreigners"/"others"?
"lupi mannari" = werewolves?


"Fate" = Fey creatures (according to D&D ed. 3.x definition of the "Fey" type - which includes pixies, dryads, and so on)
"Gargolle" = Gargoyles
"Esterni del Fuoco" = Outsiders of the Plane of Fire (likely with the "Fire" subtype)
"stregoni"/"Alti" = sorcerers/high (where did you find this one? Perhaps I can suggest a better translation if I realize the original context)
"lupi mannari" = werewolves


thank you and GP for the translations.
The Stregoni/Alti was a translation I decided to ask for at the last minute before posting, so I didn't double check the spellings...(woops :oops: ) I meant to ask about "Altri" not "Alti".

For the stregoni-like word I had come across I was thinking it was a word I'd come across in your document that I had guesed was something like "foreigners" (similar to a idiom about "of another stripe"). A quick-look through the document now and of course I can't find it at the moment. I'm sure I'll come across it again and I'll ask again then if you don't mind.

If "Fate" means "Fey" then what does "Folletti" mean? (I thought THAT meant Fey).

some other translations that I think I have down but am not 100% sure:
"spiritelli" = Sprite's?
"draghetti dei boschi" = Wood Drakes?
"amadriadi" = Hamadryads?
"cinquantina" = a colloquialism meaning roughly "50-odd", "50-some", "about 50", "approximately 50", "circa 50"
"drachi giganti" = Giant lizards?
"Orsi-gufi" = Owlbears?

and then two I'm really unsure of-
"Tafani" seems to mean horseflies, but the context seems to be refering to some sort of parasitic predator.
"shargugh" = ? This one has me completely stumpted. :?:

Gecko wrote:Here's a start on the Alfheim translation:


I consider the "Introduction" as particularly important to understand the scope and the methods I adopted in the whole work.


I think the Introduction section would take a fluent italian speaker to translate (i.e. not me) :lol:

Now, about you great Alfheim translation:

Gecko wrote:Population: 204,540 (88.3% Elven, 5% Human, 1.5% Centaur, 1.5% Metamorph, 3.7% Other) though when I put it into a spreadsheet it actually comes out 88.2% Elven and 3.8% others.


It's likely that many mistakes have made their way into the manual. Nevertheless, sometimes approximations and roundings could be the reason of some inconsistencies.


yes, a 0.1% difference I debated if it was even worth mentioning, but finally I decided that if your planning on doing an update anyway, you might want to know about it. And of course it's always possible that I mistyped when entering the info into a spreadsheet.


Gecko wrote:and then a line that reads, I think, something roughly like:
13.7%* of the population would be considered urban by elven standards, but only Alfheim City would match most people's definition of urban, so by that criterea 7.3% of the population are urban


You perfectly catched the meaning of that! ;)


cool. :D I was very unsure about that...

Gecko wrote:now if you add that up, that leaves you 140 shy of the total. Reverse engineering from the tables at the end adds roughly 71 Harpies, 58-59 Half-orcs, & 11-12 Lycanthropes ("lupi mannari" = Werewolves?), thus totaling the missing 140. However, such reverse engineering from those tables adds all kinds of issues with the human population.


As I said, some of those inconsistencies could be the result of approximations and roundings up or down, while others could be the result of sheer mistakes. That's another of the reasons why the manual needs an update.


yeah, such rounding errors when going from the table are to be expected (and are not neccessarily a misteak, just the nature of the data format), so I'm only using those calculated numbers as a "ballpark" guide.

In particular, population numbers were always rounded up or down to the next or previous tenth, while percentages to the first decimal.


ok, I had wondered about that.


Gecko wrote:Elves: 180,500, something about 99.8% are natives of Alfheim, and 0.2% are foreign elves. The main clans have 15,000-20,000 members, and the lesser clans have 500-6,000 members.
  • 60.6% or 109,383 "Sylvan Elves" including Mealidil, Long Runner, & Erendyl clans, & (most? all?) the minor clans
  • 19% or 34,295 "Brunian Elves" including Feadiel & Chossum clans
  • 10.2% or 18,411 High? ("Chiari") Elves including Grunalf clan
  • 10% or 18,050 "Scuri" Elves ("Shield Elves"? "Militant Elves"?) including Red Arrow Clan
  • 0.2% or 361 "foreign" elves*
*= not (apparently) mentioned in the document, but in the original Italian threads mention is made that this is Belcadiz, Erewan, Callarii, Vyalia, Wendarian, & Shiye elves & Shadow elven infiltrators/spies


I'm not quite happy anymore with the subdivision of elven subraces I did when I wrote the manual.


From following the various 3e elf discussions, I thought these might end up changing...

* Brown Elves (Italian: Elfi Bruni): They're not "from Brun", but instead swarthy-complexioned and dark-haired; the Belcadiz elves belong to this group, as well as the Chossum and the Feadiel clans of Alfheim (in a later revision, the Feadiel were instead numbered among the Sylvan Elves);


Bruni means Brown? ah.... I had gotten attached to the ideal of "Brunian" elves... ;(

:lol:

* Fair Elves (Italian: Elfi Chiari): Those are tall as humans, blonde-, platinum-, or silver-haired, and with a pale complexion; some elves of Wendar belong to this group, as well as the Vyalia, the Shiye, and the Grunalf clans);


I had wondered if Chiari was something like "Light".

Gecko wrote:Checking these against the tables at the back and reverse engineering gives ROUGHLY (significant rounding errors to be expected):
total elves: 14.9% of all Known World elves or 180,759 (vs 180,500, check)
32.1% of all Known World "Sylvan elves" or 109,583 (vs 109,383, check)
48.4% of all Known World "Brunian elves" or 34,330 (vs 34,295, check)
28.5% of all Known World "'Chiari' elves" or 20,378 (vs 18,411, difference due to rouding errors?)
94.8% of all Known World "'scuri' elves" or 18,059 (vs 18,050, check)
0.3% of all Known World "'Alti' elves" or 181 (vs 361, I think the difference is because this 181 is only Shiye & Shadow elves, the others - Erewan, Callari, etc. - would be included in the other elven ethnic groups above?)


I suppose the main discrepancies are due to rounding (first decimal, as I said above).
Nevertheless, for some clarifications:

* High Elves (Elfi Alti) are included among "foreign elves" in Alfheim; but not all "foreign elves" of course are High Elves. High Elves come from Wendar, so a part of the 361 foreign elves in Alfheim is composed by High Elven immigrants from Wendar. As I explained above, the High Elves are by no means related directly to Callarii, Shiye and Shadow Elves.

* The same is true for other elven subraces: percentages given for subraces living in Alfheim have to be counted against the 99.8% of Alfheim's elven population (180,500), that is native elves. The tables at the end of the book, of course, list the additional number of foreign elves belonging to a given subrace within the percentages of that subrace - hence the slightly different numbers. There seem to be some mistakes anyway. :oops:


That makes sense, and I kinda guessed that might be so, good to have confirmation.


I roughly end up with the following discrepancies regarding elves subraces in Alfheim:

Elves: 180.759 (Table) vs 180.500 (Alfheim entry)
Fair Elves: 18.447 (Table) vs 18.374 (Alfheim entry)
Brown Elves: 34.330 (Table) vs 34.226 (Alfheim entry) [1]
Sylvan Elves: 109.583 (Table) vs 109.164 (Alfheim entry)


ok, I see that now (I had counted the entire entry, not just 99.8% of the elves.)
For the Fair elves from the table I had transposed two numbers in my spreadsheet (28.5% instead of 25.8%) :oops:
The rest all matches.

[1] You've to add to the number listed in Alfheim entry for native Brown Elves the number of immigrant Brown Elves, which is included in the 0.2% percentage of "foreign elves" (thus, of those 361 foreign elves, 181 are High Elves from Wendar, and 180 belong to other subraces - if you suppose to have those 180 split in half between Fair Elves and Brown Elves, numbers begin to match - more or less :P ).


Fair, Brown, and Sylvan (ie Callarri), right? To avoid going too detailed it's probably best not to try to specifically account for them to each however.

Gecko wrote:For the Humans it mention's that 60% of the Humans have lived in Alfheim for generations ("alfheim nationals", I'm calling them). It then mentions 6 other 'nationalities' with percentages totaling 100%. I'm not sure If this is for all humans or just the remaining 40% who are not 'alfheim nationals'.


It's for the remaining 40% only; nationals are just that, nationals. ;)


ok then, I'll have to play around with the spreadsheet to check that then when I have some time.

Gecko wrote:If you try to reverse engineer from the tables at the end the numbers get really wacky with lots of other groups added in with much higher totals. There's also mention of the human village of Scrubtown (population 61) in the Emerlas region.


I did those tiring and boring calculations with an excel spreadsheet at that time; there could be mistakes, nevertheless.
I see the discrepancy for humans is 10.780 (Table) vs 10.150 (Alfheim entry); considering that the table works with very large numbers (nearly eleven millions), I think the inconsistency could be due to rounding to the first decimal.


yeah, it's definately close enough to chalk the difference up to rounding.

Thank you, and cheers!
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Zendrolion » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:39 am

Gecko wrote:I can see the Biazzan and Tel Akbir being two points on a spectrum-
Tel Akbir having mostly Ylari blood, while the Biazzani's having mostly Thyatian/Kerendan/Ispan blood, but both having ethnic/blood admixtures of the other (less so for Tel Akbiri's), and cultural influences from both.

Will your revision include Kerendans as a seperate sub-group, or do you consider them too mixed with regular thyatians (and thus with too many half-Kerendans half-Thyatians, and other such variations- quarters, etc.) to be worth doing so?


I definitely agree with you about the difference between Thyatian-Alasiyan relationship in Tel Akbir and Biazzan.

About Kerendans, I've always considered them to be a single etnic group with the Thyatians (after all DotE lists them under the entry "Thyatians and Kerendans" in the Player's Guide to Thyatis). Moreover, I don't like the idea of the Thyatians being "more Roman" and the Kerendans being "more Byzantine", so I think I'd rather keep them together unless there are some very valid reasons to do otherwise. ;)

Gecko wrote:The Stregoni/Alti was a translation I decided to ask for at the last minute before posting, so I didn't double check the spellings...(woops :oops: ) I meant to ask about "Altri" not "Alti".


Oh, ok. "Altri" means indeed "others".

Gecko wrote:I'm sure I'll come across it again and I'll ask again then if you don't mind.


Sure I don't. :)

Gecko wrote:If "Fate" means "Fey" then what does "Folletti" mean? (I thought THAT meant Fey).


Ehm... I'm sorry but I think I misremembered my choices of old... :oops:
Please forget what I said in my last post about this... :x

In truth, you should translate "Folletti" as "Fey" (as per 3rd edition creature "type"); "Fate" (singular "Fata") is the term I used in Italian to translate the general category "Fairy Folk" from PC1, and thus it includes pixies, brownies, leprechauns, sidhes, and so on.

In general, "folletto" in Italian identifies a small fairy creature (be it a brownie, a pixie, or whatever). Actually "Fey" type from 3rd ed. was rendered in Italian editions of D&D as "folletto" (singular, plural "folletti"); until then, it was "pixie" that in Italian had been translated as "folletto" since the times of the Red Box.

I apologize for the confusion... :oops:

Gecko wrote:some other translations that I think I have down but am not 100% sure:
"spiritelli" = Sprite's?
"draghetti dei boschi" = Wood Drakes?
"amadriadi" = Hamadryads?
"cinquantina" = a colloquialism meaning roughly "50-odd", "50-some", "about 50", "approximately 50", "circa 50"
"drachi giganti" = Giant lizards?
"Orsi-gufi" = Owlbears?


All right, some further clarifications:

"Spiritelli" = Sprites (singular "Spiritello")
"Cinquantina" = you catched that, it's "about 50"
"Drachi giganti" = Giant Dracos (a type of Giant Lizards, from the Red Box)

Gecko wrote:and then two I'm really unsure of-
"Tafani" seems to mean horseflies, but the context seems to be refering to some sort of parasitic predator.
"shargugh" = ? This one has me completely stumpted. :?:


"Tafano" (singular "tafani") indicates a large and nasty fly, which usually annoys cattle and farm animals. You surely found that word attached to "predatore", which is the translation of the "Robber fly" monster from the Red Box.

The Shargugh is a woodland monster from AC9. The word doesn't exist in Italian.

Gecko wrote:I think the Introduction section would take a fluent italian speaker to translate (i.e. not me) :lol:


Don't worry; If needed, I could translate it. :)

Gecko wrote:Fair, Brown, and Sylvan (ie Callarri), right? To avoid going too detailed it's probably best not to try to specifically account for them to each however.


Yes, you're right; better not to go that deep into the numbers. Note that Sylvan Elves doesn't include only the Callarii, but also other foreign elves who migrated in Alfheim; for example, Wendarian elves (that is, those of them who are of Sylvan ethnicity).

Gecko wrote:Thank you, and cheers!


You're welcome! :D
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causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5
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Alfheim

Postby Gecko » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:38 am

Another translation I could use confirmed:
"uccelli stigei" = Stirges?

anyhow, Thanks to Zendrolion's help, I've got the main section done.

Some notes I forgot first time:
the area of Alfheim is 2.2% of the Known Worlds surface area, and the population is 1.5% of the Known Worlds total population.

and to revise the elven numbers per the above discussions-
Elves: 180,500, or 88.2% of the population. 99.8% are native Alfheimers, 0.2% are foreign elves
Note: The author has stated that subraces will change significantly between this and the final version.
Native Alfheimers- 170,139
  • Sylvan elves- 60.6% or 109,383 inc. Mealidil, Long Runner, & Erendyl clans, & most (or all?) minor clans
  • Brown elves- 19.0% or 34,295 inc. Feadiel & Chossum clans
  • Fair elves- 10.2% or 18,411 inc. Grunalf clan
  • Dusk elves- 10.0% or 18,050 inc. Red Arrow clan
Foreign elves- 0.2% or 361. Iincludes 181 High Elves and 180 other Sylvan, Brown, & Fair elves from other elven groups (i.e. Erewan, Callarii, Belcadiz, Vyalia, Wendarian, etc., elves.)
note: Some of the elves are actually Shadow elven infiltrators/spies, but no numbers are known.

now on to the new parts-
reminder- 'RE' refers to my attempts to re-engineer the numbers from the totals tables at the end of the document and it gives the % of all Known Worlders of the given race who are in the country in question. Given the rounding errors involved, I'm only using this as a check - the number should be roughly close.

Fairy Folk: 1,650. 0.8% of the population. Mention is made of various species- Sidhe, Sprites, Pixie, Wood Drakes, Pooka, Leprecaun's, & Brownie's. I think it says that this does not include those of Oberon's court who live on the Faery plane.
RE: 29.1% = 1,650 check

Wood Imps: 1,500, especially near Stalkbrow. 0.7% of the population. Some tribes are allied with Shadow Elves.
RE: 36.9% = 1,513 check

Dryads: 1,000. Mostly Hamadryads. 0.5% of the population.
RE: 32.7% = 1,001 check

Fauns: 950 or 0.5% of the population.
RE: 50% = 950 check

Hin: 900. Mostly in Alfheim Town but also some small villages (like Oakendale in the Emerlas region) along major paths
RE: 0.2% = 785 close enough

Gnome: 400 mostly in Alfheim Town. Earth or Rock Gnomes.
RE: 1.1% = 399 check

Lupin: 350. Not sure if it's mostly or all in Alfheim Town?
71.4% Gnomish Snoutzer's (= 250)
28.6% Mongrels or Mixed Lupins (= 100)
RE: 0.2% all lupins total = 288 check
RE: 0.3% Mongrel/mixed Lupins = 104 check
RE: 1.5% Worker lupins = 251 check
RE: 3.4% Gnomish Snoutzer's specifically = 252 check

Dwarf: 300 in Alfheim Town. Also discussion about the Granitgape settlement just outside the border (in the Orclands) and the Longstriders traders.
RE: not mentioned in the tables at the end, not surprising since it would be less than 0.04% of all KW dwarves.

Chevalle: 250 including fifty-odd ("cinquantina") in Alfheim Town
RE: 48.1% = 250 check

Orc: 200
150 Common orcs (Orcus Porcus) in Alfheim Town
50 Red Orcs (Orcus Rubeus Vulgaris) I'm not sure if these are supposed to be in Alfheim Town or somewhere in the forest
RE: 0.2% Orcs = 185 check
RE: 0.5% of Common Orcs = 142 check
RE: 0.5% of Orcus Porcus = 139 check
RE: 0.4% of Red Orcs = 49 check
RE: 0.5% of Orcus Rubeus Vulgaris = 50 check

Treant: 150 scattered across the forest
RE: 36.6% = 150 check

Hsiao: 100
RE: 27% = 100 check

The following three are only from the tables at the end, but are needed to balance the totals:
2.8% of the KW's Harpies or about 71

Half-orcs: 58-59
0.9% of all Half-Orcs or 58
1.5% of all non-Kara-Kara Half-Orcs or 59

Lycanthropes: 11-12 Werewolves
0.1% of KW Lycanthropes = 12
0.4% of KW Werewolves = 11

Alfheim Kings (not in the demography document, but these regnal lists are often on the Italian threads about the demography project and I find them very useful and they need fairly little translation so I'll include them here):
Mealiden 700 BC-350 BC
Alevar Grunalf 350 BC-100 AC
Celedryl Erendyl 100-700
Doriath Erendyl 700-...

    still to do:
  • Figure out the human entry breakdown
  • Fauna and Minor Races section (that's proving to be a bit slower going - I thought I had it done after a quick pass but I'm seeing now that a lot of info is overlooked doing only such a half-translation so I'm going back through them and looking closer)
  • perhaps see if we can get a specific breakdown of Alfheim Town's population?
  • wait for any feedback
  • Then take out the RE double checking sections and resummarize and reformat everything into a "finalized" post.
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Havard » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:32 pm

Havard wrote:Also, the map at the back of the book is particularly beautiful. In fact I love it so much that I have a printed copy on my wall. Is there an english version available? Thorf have some similar ones, but not that cover the exact same area AFAIK.


Any info on this?

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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Zendrolion » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:37 pm

Havard wrote:
Havard wrote:Also, the map at the back of the book is particularly beautiful. In fact I love it so much that I have a printed copy on my wall. Is there an english version available? Thorf have some similar ones, but not that cover the exact same area AFAIK.


Any info on this?


I'm sorry Havard, I missed that. :oops:

Well, an English version doesn't exist at the moment. Nevertheless, I guess I could easily make one, given some time - it'd be enough to put English labels on the label-less map I have on my hd. ;)

Moreover, before that the map should also be checked for mistakes (like the ones regarding the position of some broken land hexes I mentioned in one earlier post).
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causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Havard » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:45 pm

Zendrolion wrote:Well, an English version doesn't exist at the moment. Nevertheless, I guess I could easily make one, given some time - it'd be enough to put English labels on the label-less map I have on my hd. ;)


I would be very interested in this :)

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Re: Alfheim

Postby Zendrolion » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:44 am

Gecko wrote:Another translation I could use confirmed:
"uccelli stigei" = Stirges?


Confirmed! ;)

Gecko wrote:Fairy Folk: 1,650. 0.8% of the population. Mention is made of various species- Sidhe, Sprites, Pixie, Wood Drakes, Pooka, Leprecaun's, & Brownie's. I think it says that this does not include those of Oberon's court who live on the Faery plane.


Exactly; the number of fairies includes only those who actually live in Alfheim, not on the Fairy Plane.

Gecko wrote:Hin: 900. Mostly in Alfheim Town but also some small villages (like Oakendale in the Emerlas region) along major paths


Module "O2 - Blade of Vengeance" features the halfling village of Oakendale well inside the Emerlas region. I tried to explain that with the fact that a group of halfling adventurers did partecipate in the AC 560 war against the Shadow Elves, and gave a contribution to save the day for Alfheim. They were granted the great honor to stay in Alfheim and found a settlement there; Oakendale is populated by their descendants.

Gecko wrote:Lupin: 350. Not sure if it's mostly or all in Alfheim Town?


Mongrels live and work in the capital and its immediate surroundings (mostly as laborers); Gnomish Snoutzer live as well around the capital, but are mostly employed as hunters and scouts.

Gecko wrote:Dwarf: 300 in Alfheim Town. Also discussion about the Granitgape settlement just outside the border (in the Orclands) and the Longstriders traders.


The discussion about Granitgape settlement (also from module O2) is actually found in Darokin chapter (Orclands subsection). In fact, the dwarven settlement happens to be located at the Emerlas' eastern borders, that is within (Darokin's) Orclands.

Gecko wrote:50 Red Orcs (Orcus Rubeus Vulgaris) I'm not sure if these are supposed to be in Alfheim Town or somewhere in the forest


All orcs listed - both Common and Red Orcs - are found only in the capital. They're the descendants of the orcs who, spurred by the Shadow Elves, attempted an invasion of Alfheim from the north in AC 390, and were disastrously defeated (some of them were kept as prisoners in Alfheim and their descendants now do menial works in the capital).

Gecko wrote:Alfheim Kings (not in the demography document, but these regnal lists are often on the Italian threads about the demography project and I find them very useful and they need fairly little translation so I'll include them here):
Mealiden 700 BC-350 BC
Alevar Grunalf 350 BC-100 AC
Celedryl Erendyl 100-700
Doriath Erendyl 700-...


We're lucky that all Alfheim kings are known from canon. Things go different for other countries, and there I had to invent many names of kings and rulers to fill the gaps... :roll:

Gecko wrote:* Figure out the human entry breakdown
* Fauna and Minor Races section (that's proving to be a bit slower going - I thought I had it done after a quick pass but I'm seeing now that a lot of info is overlooked doing only such a half-translation so I'm going back through them and looking closer)


Check with me for any help! :)

Gecko wrote:* perhaps see if we can get a specific breakdown of Alfheim Town's population?


That's something I've not done specifically myself; however, given that almost all human population of Alfheim (apart from those living in the small Emerlas village of Scrubton, from O2) lives in the capital, the ethnic distribution of humans within Alfheim Town will likely mirror that of the country as a whole.

Looking at what I wrote in the "Humans" entry for Alfheim, I see that the percentages given for the various ethnicities should indeed apply with good measure to the whole human population of Alfheim, not only to the 'nationals'. I suppose indeed that more or less the migration trend from other countries toward the trading enclave of Alfheim Town has stayed the same during the last generations - so most humans should come from Darokin (66%), Glantri (15%), and Thyatis (12%), followed by minorities from Karameikos (4%), Ylaruam (2%), and Minrothad (1%). One could eventually remove an 1% or 0.5% from Darokin's percentage, and allocate it to "others", indicating single individuals or small groups coming from one of the countries not otherwise represented in the percentages (i.e. Vestland, Ethengar, Alphatia, Ierendi, Heldann, and so on).
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causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Gecko » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:21 am

will reply to the rest later, just real quick before I go I wanted to ask about "Presenze". Some sort of Intelligent Undead?, possibly something like a ghost or phantom?
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Zendrolion » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:12 am

Gecko wrote:will reply to the rest later, just real quick before I go I wanted to ask about "Presenze". Some sort of Intelligent Undead?, possibly something like a ghost or phantom?


That is how in Italian they translated "Wraiths" (sing. "presenza", pl. "presenze") from the D&D Expert Set. ;)
BTW, "necrospettro" (sing., plural "necrospettri") is the translation of "Spectre", while "spettro" (pl. "spettri") translates "Wight". Regarding other incorporeal undead, in Italian "Phantom" becomes "fantasma", while "Haunt" becomes "anima persa" (literally "lost soul" in English).

It seems there are much fewer words in Italian than in English to describe incorporeal undead... ;)
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Re: Alfheim

Postby Gecko » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:27 am

ok, thanks, I think I've got the fauna and Minor races section done for alfheim, will post it shortly.

Zendrolion wrote:
Gecko wrote:Hin: 900. Mostly in Alfheim Town but also some small villages (like Oakendale in the Emerlas region) along major paths


Module "O2 - Blade of Vengeance" features the halfling village of Oakendale well inside the Emerlas region. I tried to explain that with the fact that a group of halfling adventurers did partecipate in the AC 560 war against the Shadow Elves, and gave a contribution to save the day for Alfheim. They were granted the great honor to stay in Alfheim and found a settlement there; Oakendale is populated by their descendants.


and I see now that the "villages along major paths" was from a translation I had previous feed to an online translator from the version on the italian webforum and is not in the document. So that means those 46 hin are the only hin outside of Alfheim Town.

Gecko wrote:50 Red Orcs (Orcus Rubeus Vulgaris) I'm not sure if these are supposed to be in Alfheim Town or somewhere in the forest


All orcs listed - both Common and Red Orcs - are found only in the capital. They're the descendants of the orcs who, spurred by the Shadow Elves, attempted an invasion of Alfheim from the north in AC 390, and were disastrously defeated (some of them were kept as prisoners in Alfheim and their descendants now do menial works in the capital).


ok. I don't know from where, but I had somehow gotten the idea that they were a small band of "savage" orcs somehow survivng in the forest despite the elves.

Gecko wrote:* perhaps see if we can get a specific breakdown of Alfheim Town's population?


That's something I've not done specifically myself; however, given that almost all human population of Alfheim (apart from those living in the small Emerlas village of Scrubton, from O2) lives in the capital, the ethnic distribution of humans within Alfheim Town will likely mirror that of the country as a whole.


Population of Alfheim Town:
Alfheim Town is supposed to total 15,000 inhabitants.
  • 10,089 humans (all humans except the 61 in Scrubtown) or 67.3% of the population of Alfheim Town
  • 350 Centaur's, 2.3% of the population of Alfheim Town. However, about 50 of those are actually Chevalles.
  • I'm presuming none of the Metamorphs are in Alfheim town, or if they are, they are, like the chevalles, pretending to be something else (which would boost that groups numbers up).
  • Hin: take the 900, subtract the 46 in Oakendale and the remainder (854) are supposed to be in Alfheim Town (5.7%)
  • Gnome: most or majority of the 400
  • Lupin: 350 in the Town or immediate surroundings. 2.3%
  • 300 Dwarves, 2% of the population of Alfheim Town
  • 200 Orcs: 1.3% of the population of Alfheim Town
  • all 59 of the half-orcs: 0.4% of the population of Alfheim Town
  • The 11 (or 12) Werewolves either don't live in the capital, or if they do, the pretend to be ordinary humans.
  • The remainder of the 15,000 would be elves.
so the big remaining question is the Gnomes. Do all of the live in Alfheim town, or just most (and if so, how many?)?
Not yet counting the Gnomes, any potential metamorphs, nor the werewolves, for the moment, I've got another 2,798 left over to potentially be elves. At least half (likely more, possibly all) of the 400 gnomes are in Alfheim Town, So there will be less than 2,598 elves

Just to crunch some numbers- If we count ALL the Gnomes, all 11 werewolves, and let's say 300 metamorphs (seems very high, but I wanted a safe number) as being in Alfheim town, that leaves 2,087 elves. So there is somewhere between 2,087 and 2,798 elves in Alfheim Town, which for the sake of round numbers we can say there are between 2 to 3 thousand elves in Alfheim Town. Does the GAZ, or any other source, give an actual number? and if so is this close?

Looking at what I wrote in the "Humans" entry for Alfheim, I see that the percentages given for the various ethnicities should indeed apply with good measure to the whole human population of Alfheim, not only to the 'nationals'.


I had already crunched the numbers and came to the same conclusion (and had already written the following up to that effect):

Humans: 10,150. All in Alfheim Town except for the 61 inhabitants of Scrubtown. 60% are "alfheim nationals" (that would be 6,090, and I presume all 61 of scrubtown would be such "alfheim nationals"). It also gives the following breakdowns- 66% Darokinian, 15% Glantrian, 12% Thyatian, 4% Karameikan, 2% Ylari, 1% Thadder. 66%+15%+12%+4%+2%+1%=100%
The question I had was, are those breakdowns supposed to be only for the non-"Alfheim nationals"? or would that be the "ethnic background" of all the humans including the "alfheim nationals"?
Zendrolian said that breakdown is meant only for the non-"alfheim-nationals" thus, that gives 2,680 Darokinians, 609 Glantrians, 487 Thyatians, 162 Karameikans, 81 Ylari, & 41 Minrothadders. [I'll call this "A"]
If however, Using those percentages to be for all gives 6699 Darokinians, 1523 Glantrians, 1218 Thyatians, 406 Karameikans, 203 Ylari, & 102 Minrothaddi. [call this "B"]
Reverse engineering from the tables at the back gives the following ethnic breakdown (expect some significant rounding errors):
7236 Darokinians, 2147 Thyatians (all types- more detailed breakdown gives 104 Biazzanians, 103 Caurenzians, 103 Glantrians, 36 Ispanians, & 1875 Thyatians, which totals 2222), 445 Alasiyans, 128 Thadders, 106 Alphatians (more detailed gives 105 Common Alphatians & 10 "Pure" Alphatians, but that totals 115), 59 Anglais/Fens, 162 Averoignians, 39 Makistani's, 313 Flaemish, 161 Aalbanese Hattians (though using the numbers for the overall Hattian category gives 525), 118 Kaelics, 443 Traladarans (though a more detailed breakdown gives 148 Boldavians, 77 mixed-blood Karameikans, and 293 Traladarans, which totals 517). [Call this "C"]
If we take the "B" breakdown as "nationality-background" and "C" as overall "ethnicity" I guess the numbers are sorta close-ish:
  • If we presume the majority of the ethnically darokinian are Darokinian but with a portion being Karameikan and Glantrian, and add in a few of the Alasiyans, Makistanians and some of the Traladarans, the numbers between B & C could be close.
  • If we sum up the entries for the ethnically Caurenzian Thyatians, Glantrian Thyatians, most or all of The Alphatians, the Anglais, the Averoignians, the Flaem, the Aalbanese Hattians, the Kaelics, & the Boldavians, and a small portion of the "ethnically" darokinian in C, then we can approach the number of Glantrian "nationals" in B.
  • If we sum up the entries for the ethnically Biazzani Thyatians, the Ispani THyatians, and the majority of the Thyatian Thyatians, and add a few Alasiyans (for Tel Akbiri's) in C then we approach the number for the Thyatian "nationals" in B
  • If we add up the mixed blood karameikans, the majority of the Traladar traladarans, and add in portions from the Darokinian & thyatian ethinicities in C, we approach the number for the Karameikan "nationals" in B
  • If we take a slight majority of the Alasiyans and most of the Makistani from C we approach the numbers of Ylari "nationals" in B
  • The numbers of ethnic thadder's in C and the number of "Minrothad nationals" in B are close enough by themselves to just be rounding errors of difference (could even thrown in a few Alphatian-descended minrothaders I suppose).

another ideal would be to simply take the breakdowns as for all but the take the 66% Darokinian and say that 60% of the total human population are of darokinian ethnic origin but are "alfheim nationals", 6% are foreigners from Darokin, and then the other listings are as is.

next up: Fauna & Minor Races of Alfheim
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Alfheim Fauna & Minor Races

Postby Gecko » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:50 am

I've tried to translate this more thoroughly and carefully since there are some minor details that don't come through on a simple quick translation (like Pumas making their den's on steep slopes, or Unicorns being specifically in the SW near Dreamland, or the parantages of half-orcs, etc.)*. This also means some of the entries might not flow as easily in english.

*=but not always... For example the dragon entry I spent quite a while sorting out all the possible translations for each occurance of the di & per preposition's and the various to be verbs, and etc., and yet in the end I got back out the exact same thing I had had from just a quick translation! :lol:

Alfheim: Translation Draft, cont.

Fauna & Minor Races:
Animals: Red Deer are the dominant herbivores, but other herbivores include Elk & Wild boars. Amongst the predators are Pumas lairing in the steeper parts of the wooded hills, also Wolves and Grizzly Bears. In the forest one finds Giant Ferrets and Giant Dracos (a type of Giant Lizard).
Magical Beasts: The famed and much admired horses bred by the elves are present in various parts of the Canolbarth near the elven settlements. A few rare Unicorns circulate through the forest, especially in the south-west near the good magic point of Dreamland. Other deadly creatures like Basilisks and Gorgons are often beget by the effects of some of the Bad Magic Points. Owlbears and Stirges inhabit the less traveled parts of the forest.
Constructs: Some constructs, like golems created anciently by non-elves are sometimes found in the recesses of the forest. Others are constructed by elven wizards in order to protect important places or objects.
Dragons: Not normally native to the forest, they can sometimes be seen flying overhead from the surrounding mountains. Furthermore, luckily rarely, dragons of every type can be transported here or created by the Bad Magic Points.
Fey: In addition to the Faeries mentioned above, there are various fey here, like the flitterling & mysterious shargugh.
Shapeshifters: Lycanthropy, deadly to demihumans, is not common in Alfheim; However, it is notorious that through the effects of the Bad Magicr Points lycanthropes of various species can be glimpsed living in the more hidden recesses of the forest.
Undead: The Undead are hated by the elven lovers of life, and are persecuted and destroyed. However, they can not prevent that, sometimes, undead (usually intelligent undead like Wraiths or vampires) are created or transported here by the effects of the Bad Magic points. In particular, an ancient Nithian prince, Hashaburminal, now a lich, resides in a grotto near the Selinar lakes, waiting for the perfect moment to bring an end to his plan to bring destruction to the elves.
Parasites: Enormous spiders inhabit the less frequented portions of the forest and are often used as mounts by Wood Imp cavalry. Some areas of the forest are infested with Robber flies.
Humanoids: Alfheim Town includes some half-orcs, individuals usually born from the union of a human female and a male orc.
Monstrous Humanoids: Flocks of Pegataurs - originating usually from Serraine - sometimes overfly the Canolbarth Forest.

Alfheim translation- still to do:
  • Tidy up the wording on the human entry breakdown
  • Finalize the specific breakdown of Alfheim Town's population.
  • any feedback?
  • Then take out the RE double checking sections and resummarize and reformat everything into a "finalized" & "polished" post.
  • then- repeat for all the other chapters

But for now, since I've got to be up early tomorrow, goodnite.
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Hugin » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:33 pm

Zendrolion wrote:...while "Haunt" becomes "anima persa" (literally "lost soul" in English).

But that one's just so cool!
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby Gecko » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:40 am

Still waiting on an answer about wether all or only most of alfheim's Gnomes live in Alfheim City or not, but I've had a draft translation of Atruaghin Clans ready to go for some time now so I'll move on. I'm not going to worry about the minor races/flora/fauna sections in any of the other entries for this first pass - it takes too long to translate properly given that most of the time it's really not that important (though there are some gems hidden in those sections). I've got parts/most of Rockhome (which in Italian translation is next alphabetically) & Ylaruam (because I had done most of it for another project previously) close to ready- If someone wants to work on other entries please have at it as I don't have much time to work on this myself.

Zendrolion wrote:That is how in Italian they translated "Wraiths" (sing. "presenza", pl. "presenze") from the D&D Expert Set. ;)
BTW, "necrospettro" (sing., plural "necrospettri") is the translation of "Spectre", while "spettro" (pl. "spettri") translates "Wight". Regarding other incorporeal undead, in Italian "Phantom" becomes "fantasma", while "Haunt" becomes "anima persa" (literally "lost soul" in English).

It seems there are much fewer words in Italian than in English to describe incorporeal undead... ;)


I've been reading a book that talks about the history of English compared to other Indo-European languages and a few days back I came across an interesting trivia bit that ties in the above:
In old English/Middle English (depending on how you define it), Wight meant a living creature or specifically a human being, almost the oposite from that of modern English :shock:
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Atruaghin Clans

Postby Gecko » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:59 am

just a reminder- "RE" here means reverse engineering from the apendix tables to double check, given the rounding issues (and etc.) discussed previously such numbers will only be very approximate and are only meant as a very loose double-check.

Atruaghin Clans

Area: 180,866 sq. km. (6.3% of the Known World)
  • 35.5% to The Horse Clan territories (64,293 sq. km.)
  • 25.6% to the Tiger Clan territories (46,328 sq. km.)
  • 16.9% to the Turtle Clan territories (30,537 sq. km.)
  • 12.1% to the Elk Clan territories (21,931 sq. km.)
  • 9.8% to the Bear Clan Territories (17,777 sq. km.) (Cliff dwellers after all!)

Population: 279,700 inhabitants (98.3% Human, 1.7% Other) (2% of the Know World's population)

Density: 1.6 inhabitants/sq. km. (though I calculate 1.5)
34 Urban Centers (large tribes) totaling 29,314 or 10.7% of the human population, or 10.5% of the total population is "Urban". Only the Tiger Clan cities would come close to an outsider's definition of "Urban" so that would instead make it 4.0% of the population, or 4.1% of the Human Population, is "urban" by that criteria.
  • 11,186 Tiger Clan in 10 larger tribes, or 13.4% of tiger clan is urban.
  • 5,618 Elk Clan in 8 larger tribes, or 18.6% of elk clan is "urban"
  • 5,565 Bear Clan in 7 larger tribes, or 12.3% of bear clan is "urban"
  • 3,925 Turtle Clan in 5 larger tribes, or 8.6% of turtle clan is "urban" (Presuming the listed "Ferret" tribe is actually the "Sea Snake" tribe)
  • 2,877 Horse Clan in 4 larger tribes, or 4.1% of Horse clan is "urban"

In the document these are:
Moose (701), Eagle (839), Buffalo (740), Sloth (1,205), Chameleon (617), Beaver (595), Deer (605), Cougar (1,486), Coyote (982), Hawk (821), Ferret (775), Jaguar (1,179), Owl (566), Halibut (840), Sea Lion (577), Bobcat (872), Wolf (697), Parrot (504), Peacock (1,148), Pelican (800), Vampire Bat (915), Piranha (1,318), Python (1,351), Racoon (751), Mountain Lion (855), Salmon (739), Monkey (1,463), Squirrel (717), Rattlesnake (654), Falcon (696), Shark (933), Mountain Goat (861), Badger (958), Trout (554)

Interestingly this list has a Ferret but not a Sea Snake. I'm presuming they are one and the same.

"Urban" Population by Clan:
  • 83,290 Tiger (29.8%)
    • # obtained by summing: Chameleon, Cougar, Jaguar, Monkey, Parrot, Peacock, Piranha, Python, Sloth, Vampire Bat.
  • 70,330 Horse (25.1%)
    • # obtained by summing: Buffalo, Moose, Salmon, Wolf
  • 45,810 Turtle (16.4%)
    • # obtained by summing: Halibut, Pelican, Sea Lion, Sea Snake/Ferret, Shark
  • 45,270 Bear (16.2%)
    • # obtained by summing: Coyote, Eagle, Falcon, Hawk, Mountain Goat, Mountain Lion, Rattlesnake
  • 30,180 Elk (10.8%)
    • # obtained by summing: Badger, Beaver, Bobcat, Deer, Owl, Racoon, Squirrel, Trout
  • 4,820 non-humans (1.7%)
    • # obtained by summing: Centaur, Lupins, Harpies, Wood Imps, Dryads

Overview of Population:
274,880 Humans
2,500 Centaurs
1,670 Lupins
400 Harpies
200 Wood Imps
totals: 279,650
RE from the tables we can add 50ish Dryad's to make up the difference.

Humans: Different values work out to between 279,700 or 280,269 so just say between 275,000 and 280,000?
  • 98.8% of them are Atruaghi's
  • 1.2% are foreigner's (but yet are apparently counted in the tribe's population): 3,299
  • RE the foreign element gives 1,809 darokinians, 1,181 Sindhi, 537 Ierendian Thyatians, & 510 Minrothadders, totalling 4,038

Centaurs: 2500. Living in Sparse family groups?
  • They have "ottimi" (*) relations with the Horse Clan, "amicizia" (Amicable? Friendly?) relations with the Turtle & Elk Clan's, & hostile ("ostilità") relations with the Tiger Clan
    (*) Ottimi can apparently be any of the following: Optimal, Excellent, Very Good, very fine, perfect, splendid, the best
  • RE: check

Lupins: 1,670
  • 45.5% Nomads: Long Runner's: 760 RE: 756 Nomads or specifically 759 G.C. (check)
    • This tribe wanders the broken/barren lands and steppes that lie at the foot of the western and north-western wall of the plateau. These lupins are usually on good terms with members of the Clan of the Horse and frequently cross the border into Sind.
  • 30.5% Hunters: Royal Basset's: 509 RE: 519 Hunters or specifically 510 BR (check)
    they inhabit the forests above the coastal plain in the Turtle clan lands with whom they have "ottimi" repor. (note1- Ahmanni was sponsered by Korotiku, note2- the Singing Forest)
  • 15.0% Mongrel: 251 RE: 242 (check)
    These mongrels are integrated within the previous two groups, usually the result of an influx of a lupin ancestor from Darokin or Sind.
  • 9.0% Sheperds: Shag-Heads: 150 RE: 157 Pastori or specifically 148 Testapelosa (check)
    Finally small groups of solitary Shag-Heads often pass through Atrughi territory (except the Tiger Clan lands) during their peregrinations. They are appreciated as seers and sages, but never enter the plateau

for purposes of updating this post Atilla's article I would suggest that the Long Runners and Basset Hounds are Senjabi Lupins (Hunters), the Shag heads are descendents of the "Flemish" Heldann Shepherds, and the Mongrels are mostly descendents of crosses between the two and/or those with more Coyotl dominate traits.

I know there's something to be made about Lupin's in Atruaghin clans from the view point of humans (ie RW native american mythologies about dog men) but I'm not sure which of several routes to go personally.

note: earlier draft version apparently had the breakdown as follows:
1,470 Lupins, broken down thusly: 23.1% Nova Svogan Borzoi, 18.4% Burrow Bandits, 16.3% Shag heads, 10.2% Wolvenfolk, 6.8% Zvornikian Sentinel, 4.8% Slagovich Herder, 2% Carrasquito, 18.4% others

400 harpies, notably in the coastal forests of the peninsula jutting to the south-east in the tiger clan lands.

200 Wood Imps in Tiger Clan lands

note: no Red Orcs, was this an omission (or perhaps the entry predates the discussion about them in NW Atruaghin broken terrain on the Sinhdi border) or are they included across the border in the Sind entry or were they not included because they are not cannon (are they Cannon or Fannon? I'm not even sure and I don't remember the discussion from here well enough to recall).
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Re: Atruaghin Clans

Postby Cthulhudrew » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:35 am

Gecko wrote:note: no Red Orcs, was this an omission (or perhaps the entry predates the discussion about them in NW Atruaghin broken terrain on the Sinhdi border) or are they included across the border in the Sind entry or were they not included because they are not cannon (are they Cannon or Fannon? I'm not even sure and I don't remember the discussion from here well enough to recall).


They are fanon- I first proposed the idea, IIRC (from my own campaigns), though it was based on actual canon. Champions of Mystara and Gaz14, obviously, which note that red orcs conquered the region in the past. Also Gaz11, which noted that orcs lived in the Lake Amsorak region for centuries. Gaz10, IIRC, mentions orcs living in Atruaghin in some section or other (I want to say it's the player's guide detailing the subraces). There was also some kind of map at one point that showed orcs living in various spots around the plateau (at least, I think there was; I can't recall where or what offhand, but I have a vague recollection that it was there...)
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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby AuldDragon » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:54 pm

Gecko wrote:I've been reading a book that talks about the history of English compared to other Indo-European languages and a few days back I came across an interesting trivia bit that ties in the above:
In old English/Middle English (depending on how you define it), Wight meant a living creature or specifically a human being, almost the oposite from that of modern English :shock:


The original definition is the source for the Isle of Wight (as opposed to being an island filled with undead as some people may think...).

And really, words taking on an opposite meaning isn't all that unusual. There are a number of other examples in modern English, and if you're wondering how it could possibly happen, there is word in the modern language that has not yet completed the transition: "Wicked." :)

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Re: Zendrolion's Mystaran Demography Book

Postby hyrieus » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:17 pm

Still waiting on an answer about wether all or only most of alfheim's Gnomes live in Alfheim City or not


O2 Blade of Vengeance has gnomes living outside Alfheim City, though IIRC its canonically set before AC 1000.
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Re: Atruaghin Clans

Postby Gecko » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:57 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Gecko wrote:note: no Red Orcs, was this an omission (or perhaps the entry predates the discussion about them in NW Atruaghin broken terrain on the Sinhdi border) or are they included across the border in the Sind entry or were they not included because they are not cannon (are they Cannon or Fannon? I'm not even sure and I don't remember the discussion from here well enough to recall).


They are fanon- I first proposed the idea, IIRC (from my own campaigns), though it was based on actual canon. Champions of Mystara and Gaz14, obviously, which note that red orcs conquered the region in the past. Also Gaz11, which noted that orcs lived in the Lake Amsorak region for centuries. Gaz10, IIRC, mentions orcs living in Atruaghin in some section or other (I want to say it's the player's guide detailing the subraces). There was also some kind of map at one point that showed orcs living in various spots around the plateau (at least, I think there was; I can't recall where or what offhand, but I have a vague recollection that it was there...)


Let me see if I followed that correctly- A) the presence of orcs is cannon & B) the fact that they are are specifically red orcs is fannon?

hyrieus wrote:
Still waiting on an answer about wether all or only most of alfheim's Gnomes live in Alfheim City or not

O2 Blade of Vengeance has gnomes living outside Alfheim City, though IIRC its canonically set before AC 1000.


So that is in the emerlas, again, then, right? Do they live in one of the non-elven villages with the other races (the humans of Scrubtown, hin of Oakendale, dwarves of Granitgape), or do they have their own settlement(s)? or are they random forest gnomes?

ok, so they are cannonical..., but what about the original Italian of this document, what does it say?
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